"Homeschooling" article in WaPo

[BakersDozen]

18 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

@BakersDozen Ah, I didn't understand that they had access to funds after graduation. That isn't ok. The funds should be used while the student is still a high school student. 

It was originally designed to allow students with learning disabilities and extenuating circumstances have more time to complete coursework, receive therapies, etc. The universal program is too broad and grossly unfair - it did anything but level the playing field as far as education in AZ.

[BakersDozen]

28 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

@BakersDozen Ah, I didn't understand that they had access to funds after graduation. That isn't ok. The funds should be used while the student is still a high school student. 

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2020/01/30/parents-in-voucher-program-hold-onto-funds-amass-large-sums/

[Eos]

On 8/18/2023 at 8:02 AM, ktgrok said:

If these pods were home grown - parents just offering things to meet a need they see in their social group/community, that's great.  I even suggested pods as a great option during Covid shut downs. But the article and my ire are about the companies that saw parents doing that and then swooped in with fancy advertising and buzzwords and started taking over. 

This.

And the next part of your post which I've forgotten how to multi-quote - it seems to me that society's constant use of apps and the casual MLM takeover of many communities might add to the ease with which these companies have been accepted or even expected to pop up with a background platform for people to set up their little schools.

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Shoeless said:

This makes me so angry. If I had access to that kind of money for education...I don't know that I'd be be able to spend it all!

I have never come close to spending it all. Ours do roll over and can be used for job training or college or technical school. That is the ESA for kids with special needs does- the one for all other homeschool kids is just starting so no idea yet on that one. 
 

[Dmmetler]

8 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

Oh, you would not believe the complaining by those who state that 7K/student/year is not enough!! One mom signed her kid up for private school, then was just shocked when she only had $200/semester left to spend. Other parents are in a rage that they now have to pay for their children to participate in sports at the public schools or for the "free" tech school (which homeschoolers can attend for no charge). The entitlement is...staggering. Want to have a P.E. "class" at a waterpark? Want an espresso machine from Williams Sonoma (price tag ~$1000)? Just submit a "curriculum" and you've got it! I'm not kidding - a mom used a "curriculum" to by her teenager a top of the line espresso machine.

C is on an IEA,which you can get if you have a child with an active IEP, pull them from school, and choose not to get services from the school (since he didn't really get anything beyond a list of in-class supports that almost never happened except on state tests, it was a no-brainer. )

 

What we've found is that it's easy to get funds sent to a school, including non-accredited ones held in church basements that only meet two days a week-but really hard to use it as a homeschooler beyond buying textbooks from an education supply company. Rainbow Resource or Homeschool science tools, fine,but you can't just walk into Target and buy the supplies you need for a science lab without getting an itemized list approved, lest you buy groceries with it. You can't pay for music or drama or dance or anything but core academics, unless it's part of a school's program of study (so you can do art with Ms. Julie at the 2 day/week hybrid she teaches at, but not the same class that she teaches at my center). Computers must be pre-approved and have a specific educational need,like, say, having signed up for a class with K12.com (but not Outschool). Each instructor's credentials have to be pre-approved.  And sessions can't be pre-paid, but need to be billed retroactively, like doctor's offices do, which most education programs don't do.  

If the state passes their vouchers, I'm fully expecting that there will be similar restrictions which will make "microschools" and "cottage schools" sprout up all over because a "school" can use the funds with limited oversight, but a homeschooler can't. 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Dmmetler

[ktgrok]

31 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

C is on an IEA,which you can get if you have a child with an active IEP, pull them from school, and choose not to get services from the school (since he didn't really get anything beyond a list of in-class supports that almost never happened except on state tests, it was a no-brainer. )

 

What we've found is that it's easy to get funds sent to a school, including non-accredited ones held in church basements that only meet two days a week-but really hard to use it as a homeschooler beyond buying textbooks from an education supply company. Rainbow Resource or Homeschool science tools, fine,but you can't just walk into Target and buy the supplies you need for a science lab without getting an itemized list approved, lest you buy groceries with it. You can't pay for music or drama or dance or anything but core academics, unless it's part of a school's program of study (so you can do art with Ms. Julie at the 2 day/week hybrid she teaches at, but not the same class that she teaches at my center). Computers must be pre-approved and have a specific educational need,like, say, having signed up for a class with K12.com (but not Outschool). Each instructor's credentials have to be pre-approved.  And sessions can't be pre-paid, but need to be billed retroactively, like doctor's offices do, which most education programs don't do.  

If the state passes their vouchers, I'm fully expecting that there will be similar restrictions which will make "microschools" and "cottage schools" sprout up all over because a "school" can use the funds with limited oversight, but a homeschooler can't. 

 

Interesting! Here it is the opposite. Very easy to get supplies covered but hybrid schools are hard- only way to do it is under part time tutoring usually and then need to prove instructor has a degree in the field being taught or teaching certification or proof of a certain number of years of experience. There is a provision for “homeschool program “ but anything that calls itself a school - hybrid or otherwise- is not considered a homeschool program. 
computers and printers are covered in the one for kids with special needs but are not covered by the one open to all homeschoolers. Although that may change due to pushback- they DO cover TVs and I think gaming systems if you buy it with educational games? Seems an inexpensive laptop would be a way better use of funds than an Xbox but what do I know? 
What really annoys me is that this year tickets to Florida theme parks are covered! I mean, yes you CAN do educational programs there but I doubt most are going to. And when they added theme parks that also added a spending cap for field trips- I’m guessing to keep people from spending every other week at Disney. Which means I need to be careful about things like museum and zoo and play tickets because those can add up. 

[Murphy101]

I could absolutely spend $7k a year per kid if I could use it like a bank card for anything I wanted for them.

For one thing, scuba diving is an expensive extracurricular. (Dd17 wanted to go on a 3 week marine biology summer internship that’s going to cost her 10k) So are high adventure camp trips. ($800 ea this summer) And quality foreign language options are in short supply here and expensive to outsource.  (Korean is costing me $300ish every quarter) I pay $99 every 6 months per kid for ALEKs online math (and it’s absolutely worth it)  I bought 3 laptops this year bc our one household laptop was beyond dated and too many of us to share just one for access online courses. Homeschool connections is getting $500 this semester for 2 classes one teen is taking. (Biology and French) Swim lessons at their cheapest in town cost me $400 a month for 4 kids. (Not complaining about it just saying it adds up) We did ice skating for years, but they unilaterally decided they wanted a break from it this year, otherwise that was a very affordable activity at approx $800 a semester for all 4 of them  (not each).  Family zoo membership is $300.  Aquarium is even more.  Museum memberships are $100 at least each.  If I could afford it, I’d get all of those and use them at least every month.  Gym membership for family is $90 a month and offers the best prices for year round swim lessons.  A parks membership means a discount for park programs, so the $50 family fee means the 3 hour program one kid takes every week is $50 instead of $100.

And none of my kids play instruments or a sport. If I were to add that in? I could hit $7k easy every year. For one thing, I’d never do another damn fundraiser again. Ever. I hate fundraisers.  The only good fundraiser is the non existent one. 

So anyone who can’t figure out how to spend $7k a year per kid for education or extracurricular - send me the money, I will have zero problems. 

But what I suspect happens is they don’t ever trust individuals to make these decisions so the actual homeschool parents can’t access the funds, but all these over priced under delivering coops can hog all the funds for far less benefit to the students.  Which annoys the heck out of me and is why I never approve these things when it comes up in my state. 

[Heartstrings]

My state is working on phasing in an ESA program.  I haven't seen all of the rules yet and won't qualify for another 2 years so I'm not sure on all of the details.  I fully plan on taking the money if its offered, even though I disagree with the whole thing.  Obviously I don't plan on using it for espresso machines, but it would be great for foreign language, science labs, tutoring and therapies that are out of reach at the moment, not to mention dual enrollment classes since my state doesn't pay anything for those.   

I don't actually imagine it getting funded by the time I can access it though, my state is great about having programs that sound spectacular until you realize that they only funded it for a year or two and never again.  Even their own estimates about how many will access the program are crazy low.  I don't remember the numbers but its less than the number of kids already homeschooling.  If half of homeschoolers use the program and half of current private school students we'd be over the estimated number before a single public school student had access.  It's so dumb. 

I do fully expect some parents who want to use the funds for private school to be sorely disappointed.  They are being sold the whole plan as a way to "pay private school tuition" but none of them seem to realize that its not enough money.  If you currently have $0 budgeted to school tuition and the state gives you $6000, but the privates school cost $10,000, you have to pay the $4000 difference to access it and they are not doing that math.  That's before the schools raise the tuition by the amount of the voucher, which I've seen reporting about in other states.   

Sigh.   I am hoping to get a couple of years benefit from it before it bankrupts the state.  It would be nice if *some* of the money goes to regular families and not all to the top 1% in the state, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Heartstrings

[EKS]

My opinion is that if the state is going to give vouchers for education, the entities that accept those vouchers need to be held accountable for a certain level of performance.  Even if this isn't something that happens initially with these programs, it surely will eventually.

As a homeschooler, I wouldn't take the money because I wouldn't want the state mucking about in my homeschool.  Unfortunately, this sort of thing opens the door to state interference in all homeschools regardless of whether they are accepting the funds or not.  

I realize that what I said above is in direct contradiction to things I've said at other times about homeschooling needing more regulation.  

Edited August 20, 2023 by EKS

[Heartstrings]

43 minutes ago, EKS said:

My opinion is that if the state is going to give vouchers for education, the entities that accept those vouchers need to be held accountable for a certain level of performance.  Even if this isn't something that happens initially with these programs, it surely will eventually.

As a homeschooler, I wouldn't take the money because I wouldn't want the state mucking about in my homeschool.  Unfortunately, this sort of thing opens the door to state interference in all homeschools regardless of whether they are accepting the funds or not.  

I realize that what I said above is in direct contradiction to things I've said at other times about homeschooling needing more regulation.  

Right now in my state it looks like the only requirement is taking a standardized test.  I don't have a problem with that, although I think any test requirement should have an alternative like a portfolio review or something.  I'm still waiting to see the exact rules in my area, but a test alone doesn't bother me, especially since many states require testing of homeschoolers without giving them any money for it, so testing is within the realm of standard and accepted regulations. We used to have an annual testing requirement years ago and it was fine. It's also an accepted practice that taking money from the government comes with certain strings, so it doesn't feel out of step to me.    

I'm not sure if it will cover religious curriculum yet, but the money will also be going to religious schools so I'm pretty sure it will.  

I'm in favor overall of a minimal amount of regulation anyway. Right now it's almost completely unregulated where I am.  We have to send a notice with names and address and that's it.  Even still, a number of people won't do that much.   

Have you changed your mind about regulating homeschooling in general, or just don't like the money aspect?

Edited August 20, 2023 by Heartstrings

[EKS]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Have you changed your mind about regulating homeschooling in general, or just don't like the money aspect?

I haven't changed my mind about regulation.  I guess if I had to reconcile the two into some sort of coherent position, I would say that the introduction of money into the thing makes it much more possible for the state to require that homeschoolers use certain approved resources, first just if they want the funding but then, at some point, for everyone.  I have no problem with annual testing, nor do I have a problem with having to actually meet with a state official to discuss plans for the year and/or what was accomplished.    

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, EKS said:

I haven't changed my mind about regulation.  I guess if I had to reconcile the two into some sort of coherent position, I would say that the introduction of money into the thing makes it much more possible for the state to require that homeschoolers use certain approved resources, first just if they want the funding but then, at some point, for everyone.  I have no problem with annual testing, nor do I have a problem with having to actually meet with a state official to discuss plans for the year and/or what was accomplished.    

I can agree with that.  I don't love the whole scheme but not enough to not take the money, which isn't exactly a coherent position either.  I guess I figure if the other people in my state are determined to go down this particular path I might as well benefit a little.  Goodness knows I'm in an extreme minority position when it comes to this in my state.  The only ones besides me who seem unhappy with it are the public school admins from small districts and they minority of staunch anti government homeschoolers.  For my part, I donate to the organization that lobbies the legislature on behalf of homeschoolers, doing my tiny part to keep that slippery slope at bay. 

I would love to see more restrictions on the private school side of things. People are going to be raking in a ton of money on that side of things. There's no way they are going to add more restrictions to them though.  Which does in a weird way benefit homeschoolers, all of the private schools will be fighting against more restrictions on themselves, and since homeschoolers get lumped in with them that will help keep us from having more restrictions added as well.  Politics creates strange bedfellows indeed.  

Edited August 20, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Murphy101]

29 minutes ago, EKS said:

I haven't changed my mind about regulation.  I guess if I had to reconcile the two into some sort of coherent position, I would say that the introduction of money into the thing makes it much more possible for the state to require that homeschoolers use certain approved resources, first just if they want the funding but then, at some point, for everyone.  I have no problem with annual testing, nor do I have a problem with having to actually meet with a state official to discuss plans for the year and/or what was accomplished.    

I’m not for any of it.

All the regulations and testing and committee meetings and money tied with strings aren’t doing anything to improve state schools, so I see no value in perpetuating the insanity on homeschoolers and expecting a different result.

[rebcoola]

We get money from our ALE but we have to buy approved curriculum through approved vendors. They can offer all the cool classes they want but can't pay for outside classes so they offer private music lessons but wont pay your piano teacher etc.  The school district gets full time student funds so it actually brings money into the district for other students.  We have talk to a teacher weekly and do monthly progress reports in person and the kids have to do the state tests.

A free for all of funds just seems crazy 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I could absolutely spend $7k a year per kid if I could use it like a bank card for anything I wanted for them.

For one thing, scuba diving is an expensive extracurricular. (Dd17 wanted to go on a 3 week marine biology summer internship that’s going to cost her 10k) So are high adventure camp trips. ($800 ea this summer) And quality foreign language options are in short supply here and expensive to outsource.  (Korean is costing me $300ish every quarter) I pay $99 every 6 months per kid for ALEKs online math (and it’s absolutely worth it)  I bought 3 laptops this year bc our one household laptop was beyond dated and too many of us to share just one for access online courses. Homeschool connections is getting $500 this semester for 2 classes one teen is taking. (Biology and French) Swim lessons at their cheapest in town cost me $400 a month for 4 kids. (Not complaining about it just saying it adds up) We did ice skating for years, but they unilaterally decided they wanted a break from it this year, otherwise that was a very affordable activity at approx $800 a semester for all 4 of them  (not each).  Family zoo membership is $300.  Aquarium is even more.  Museum memberships are $100 at least each.  If I could afford it, I’d get all of those and use them at least every month.  Gym membership for family is $90 a month and offers the best prices for year round swim lessons.  A parks membership means a discount for park programs, so the $50 family fee means the 3 hour program one kid takes every week is $50 instead of $100.

And none of my kids play instruments or a sport. If I were to add that in? I could hit $7k easy every year. For one thing, I’d never do another damn fundraiser again. Ever. I hate fundraisers.  The only good fundraiser is the non existent one. 

So anyone who can’t figure out how to spend $7k a year per kid for education or extracurricular - send me the money, I will have zero problems. 

But what I suspect happens is they don’t ever trust individuals to make these decisions so the actual homeschool parents can’t access the funds, but all these over priced under delivering coops can hog all the funds for far less benefit to the students.  Which annoys the heck out of me and is why I never approve these things when it comes up in my state. 

I think as kids get older it is easier to spend the money, for sure. I mean, my 5th grader isn't going on any undersea adventures, and he's not doing any outsourced classes other than the drop off stem program. We also cannot use the money for camps unless they are special needs camps that specifically target a special need. So can't use it for say, an ecology summer camp. But...some get around this by using the private part time tutoring - again that only applies if the people at the camp leading it have the credentials. So our STEM program did charge the state ESA for the half day week long summer camp, charging it as part time tutoring, as they are credentialed for tutoring science and they did teach the kids science there. But a lot of camps have not done that, or don't meet the requirements. It's all sort of topsy turvey. 

[bolt.]

In my area, to get money, you need to (a) register with a school board (there are lots to choose from, including many boards who just serve as anchors for homeschoolers) ( b ) submit a point-form learning plan, (c) meet with a supervising teacher 2x per year, and (d) submit your receipts.

It's not anything-goes. Each receipt has to coordinate with one or more of the points on your learning plan. Certain things are listed as allowed and not allowed, and that list gets updated and changed a bit each year. Recently the easiest thing to do has been to submit your home internet bills as receipts -- since it's not really simple to homeschool without the internet, it's easily defended as a homeschooling necessity. However, they may change that some year on the grounds that it falls under 'a thing that parents generally provide for their children, even if they weren't homeschooling'... because those things aren't supposed to be refundable, It's pretty fluid, but your supervising teacher knows what's-what each year.

[BakersDozen]

8 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I could absolutely spend $7k a year per kid if I could use it like a bank card for anything I wanted for them.

For one thing, scuba diving is an expensive extracurricular. (Dd17 wanted to go on a 3 week marine biology summer internship that’s going to cost her 10k) So are high adventure camp trips. ($800 ea this summer) And quality foreign language options are in short supply here and expensive to outsource.  (Korean is costing me $300ish every quarter) I pay $99 every 6 months per kid for ALEKs online math (and it’s absolutely worth it)  I bought 3 laptops this year bc our one household laptop was beyond dated and too many of us to share just one for access online courses. Homeschool connections is getting $500 this semester for 2 classes one teen is taking. (Biology and French) Swim lessons at their cheapest in town cost me $400 a month for 4 kids. (Not complaining about it just saying it adds up) We did ice skating for years, but they unilaterally decided they wanted a break from it this year, otherwise that was a very affordable activity at approx $800 a semester for all 4 of them  (not each).  Family zoo membership is $300.  Aquarium is even more.  Museum memberships are $100 at least each.  If I could afford it, I’d get all of those and use them at least every month.  Gym membership for family is $90 a month and offers the best prices for year round swim lessons.  A parks membership means a discount for park programs, so the $50 family fee means the 3 hour program one kid takes every week is $50 instead of $100.

And none of my kids play instruments or a sport. If I were to add that in? I could hit $7k easy every year. For one thing, I’d never do another damn fundraiser again. Ever. I hate fundraisers.  The only good fundraiser is the non existent one. 

So anyone who can’t figure out how to spend $7k a year per kid for education or extracurricular - send me the money, I will have zero problems. 

But what I suspect happens is they don’t ever trust individuals to make these decisions so the actual homeschool parents can’t access the funds, but all these over priced under delivering coops can hog all the funds for far less benefit to the students.  Which annoys the heck out of me and is why I never approve these things when it comes up in my state. 

One argument against the universal expansion (and the ESA program in general) is the question of whether many activities such as scuba diving, ice-skating, multiple trips to zoos/aquariums, etc. should be taxpayer-funded. The original premise was to provide home educated students with the opportunities public school students have, but it seems there are few boundaries in this regard and so the ESA is covering things which public school students not only do not have access to, but whose parents are still paying for (ie: swim lessons). So now activities, lessons, classes and such are going WAY up in price because ESA/home educated students have access to 7K/year/student. Homeschool families are unable or unwilling to pay these amounts, and the public is wondering why they're now footing the bill for expensive sports camps and the equipment for those camps (including basketball shoes - true story).

But now that the funding is out there with no limits for academic vs. other categories, rolling things back will not be easy if possible at all. People like this "free" (not) money and what it can get them - totally understandable. But the public was not allowed the right to vote on whether taxpayers should be forced to fund admission to OdySea aquarium with no limit for those with ESA contracts.

I'm just using what you offered as activities as these are what are covered in AZ and are one of many reasons the ESA is coming under scrutiny. 🙂

[Murphy101]

Yeah. I don’t understand the premise of giving home schoolers what the public school has. If the public school had what a parent felt their kid needed, most would send them there instead of home schooling.

That said, football is the real God in the Bible Belt and I’d rather my tax dollars not go to support it. But no one cares what I think. So every high school will have piece of crap chromebooks with crappy math lessons on it and billion dollar stadiums.

Aside from that -

Personally I’m against ESA’s under every guise I’ve seen them suggested so far for reasons others have already mentioned. 

[BakersDozen]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

That said, football is the real God in the Bible Belt and I’d rather my tax dollars not go to support it. But no one cares what I think. So every high school will have piece of crap chromebooks with crappy math lessons on it and billion dollar stadiums.

Yep. I cannot stand it.

[Eos]

Out on a limb here (since my state gives no money and I don't expect or want any for reasons listed by others above) - what if the state just gave money to offset the free labor its homeschooling parents are providing?  No approval or receipts needed for things, no proof of attendance at lessons, just a "mom voucher" that says "thanks for saving us money by educating your kids at home."

I can easily see the potential problems with this, but this conversation has led to some interesting thoughts for me. If you can't believe you're reading this from me, I hear you. I'm anti-voucher, anti-charter in general.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Eos said:

Out on a limb here (since my state gives no money and I don't expect or want any for reasons listed by others above) - what if the state just gave money to offset the free labor its homeschooling parents are providing?  No approval or receipts needed for things, no proof of attendance at lessons, just a "mom voucher" that says "thanks for saving us money by educating your kids at home."

I can easily see the potential problems with this, but this conversation has led to some interesting thoughts for me. If you can't believe you're reading this from me, I hear you. I'm anti-voucher, anti-charter in general.

I don't think homeschoolers are the main target of the vouchers though.  I think the main idea is to fund private schools and homeschoolers are just added in as an after thought.  That's why the amount of money is so high, $6000-$7000 is a ton of money for homeschooling, but its a drop in the bucket for private school.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I live in a high regulation state where we can absolutely nothing from the schools. If your child has an IEP you can access OT, speech therapy or PT, but that’s it. No sports, no classes, no extracurriculars.  
Definitely no money, but we turn in a lot of paperwork.

Part of me would love some money to homeschool, because I pay school taxes in two districts and homeschool and send a child to private school(that I pay for) because neither district can meet my children’s needs. I’m a little salty about that. But part of me also has been around homeschooling in my area long enough to know that money would not be spent to academically enrich the kids, even with requiring receipts, and would likely encourage more people to homeschool and do it poorly. 

But I am still salty.

(One of my biggest gripes with our hybrid school and one remaining co-op is that the instructors have zero qualifications; if the money was given and you had to prove that the instructors had some sort of expertise or qualification, I would support that as I would hope it would increase the level of instruction these kids are getting)

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Yeah. I don’t understand the premise of giving home schoolers what the public school has. If the public school had what a parent felt their kid needed, most would send them there instead of home schooling.

That said, football is the real God in the Bible Belt and I’d rather my tax dollars not go to support it. But no one cares what I think. So every high school will have piece of crap chromebooks with crappy math lessons on it and billion dollar stadiums.

Aside from that -

Personally I’m against ESA’s under every guise I’ve seen them suggested so far for reasons others have already mentioned. 

I'm very glad to have it for kids that really can't be served well or are not served well by public schools - the original special needs scholarship here (It is for "unique abilities") has been a God send for people with students with high support needs on the autism spectrum, kids with Down's Syndrome, etc - being able to purchase digital communication devices, pay for private speech therapy and OT, etc. For kids with milder "issues" like my older one who is on the spectrum/adhd/etc and 2E being able to buy curriculum that spans a wide range of grades and pay for a different program when one doesn't work after a while due to changing needs, is huge. 

And it has probably been life saving for kids with anapylaxis (also qualifying diagnosis for the UA ESA here) - parents having the funds to educate their kids at home where they won't be exposed to something that will kill them is a big deal and I'd say a good use of taxpayer money. 

A lot of these kids, as we all know, are NOT going to get an education, a real one, in a public school. And if the state thinks it is cheaper to have the parent do it with monies provided by the state....I'm okay taking that money. Heck, I used to joke - before the ESA was a thing - that the school should pay me just as a thank you for keeping my difficult child home and out of their hair. (the semester my oldest went back to public school his Latin teacher agreed with this statement)

My thoughts on providing it for just anyone are different...I am going to take the money if it is there, since well, it is there. 

That said, I just submitted receipts for my two older ones and got a ridiculous amount of satisfaction asking the state of Florida - land of  "slavery taught Black people beneficial life skills" - to reimburse a bunch of anti-racism books. And chuckled out loud as I asked them to pay for a curriculum guide from a company called, "Woke Homeschooling", lol. Take that, DeSantis! 

[ScoutTN]

43 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

(One of my biggest gripes with our hybrid school and one remaining co-op is that the instructors have zero qualifications; if the money was given and you had to prove that the instructors had some sort of expertise or qualification, I would support that as I would hope it would increase the level of instruction these kids are getting)

I did prefer people with degrees in their subject matter when outsourcing for my homeschooled high schooler, especially for something online.

But that can be a trap and goes against the grain of homeschooling in general. Part of the fundamental ethos of home education is that an intelligent, diligent parent who knows how find and use resources well can teach his or her child well. 

Degrees and credentials do NOT automatically make a capable, much less an excellent, teacher. I expect many, if not all, of us have experience with well- credentialed people who were terrible or ineffective teachers.

Some of my homeschooler’s best outsourced teachers were just homeschool parents with a passion for what they teach and a commitment to excellence - no degree in their course material. One had no degree at all - just mastery of and love for her discipline and a gift for communicating with teens.

I do see the need for some accountability if government funds are involved, but using the same sorts of standards that public education does will not assure good results. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Innisfree]

There’s a new installment in the WaPo homeschooling series this morning. It does a pretty good job of showing the diverse reasons people homeschool, though I’d have liked to hear more about the results from the survey they conducted. Maybe that’s going to be in a future article. Gifted link:

https://wapo.st/45CJWcC

[EKS]

10 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Degrees and credentials do NOT automatically make a capable, much less an excellent, teacher. I expect many, if not all, of us have experience with well- credentialed people who were terrible or ineffective teachers.

Yes, definitely.  But of all the outside teachers my kids had, the best ones also had a relevant degree.  I'm thinking about for grades 7+ here, so that might make a difference.

I know from my own experience that the more I know about a thing, the better I am able to teach about it.  My younger son benefited from this enormously. 

[ScoutTN]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

Yes, definitely.  But of all the outside teachers my kids had, the best ones also had a relevant degree.  I'm thinking about for grades 7+ here, so that might make a difference.

I know from my own experience that the more I know about a thing, the better I am able to teach about it.  My younger son benefited from this enormously. 

Yes, I agree this is generally so. But, again, the homeschool universe is filled with exceptions to it. 

And education degrees and state teaching certifications which the government values far, far more than an undergrad or graduate degree in actual course content are fairly meaningless with regard to how good a teacher actually is. 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

There’s a new installment in the WaPo homeschooling series this morning. It does a pretty good job of showing the diverse reasons people homeschool, though I’d have liked to hear more about the results from the survey they conducted. Maybe that’s going to be in a future article. Gifted link:

https://wapo.st/45CJWcC

Thank you!  It's a good article.  I do wish they had highlighted some families who had been homeschooling longer.  All of the families featured in the article had young kids and have only been homeschooling for a couple of years.  That's going to skew perceptions.  Especially the family that said they had cut off socialization with bad influences from public school and that meant they weren't socializing.   I'm sure that confirmed some peoples ideas about homeschooling, but as a long term homeschooler I read that as a newbie who isn't plugged in to the community yet.  

I can see the WaPo is trying, and I appreciate it.  i just don't know that "outsiders" can really capture the inner workings of a community.  Which I try to keep on mind when I'm reading reporting on other things, if they are missing this much about something I know about, they are likely missing things when they report on other communities or cultures too.  

[EKS]

1 minute ago, ScoutTN said:

And education degrees and state teaching certifications which the government values far, far more than an undergrad or graduate degree in actual course content are fairly meaningless with regard to how good a teacher actually is. 

You know, I would have said this as well.  Then I got a master's degree in gifted education and discovered that what I learned in the course of obtaining it (which is somewhat different from what they were actively "teaching" me) totally changed my teaching (for the better).  That said, the vast, vast majority of people in that program were idiots who obviously just wanted a piece of paper so that they could get paid more.

[ktgrok]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

 

I can see the WaPo is trying, and I appreciate it.  i just don't know that "outsiders" can really capture the inner workings of a community.  Which I try to keep on mind when I'm reading reporting on other things, if they are missing this much about something I know about, they are likely missing things when they report on other communities or cultures too.  

oh....which ties into our conversation recently here about "own voices" in books!!!

Yes, I basically think in unit studies, lol. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

You know, I would have said this as well.  Then I got a master's degree in gifted education and discovered that what I learned in the course of obtaining it (which is somewhat different from what they were actively "teaching" me) totally changed my teaching (for the better).  That said, the vast, vast majority of people in that program were idiots who obviously just wanted a piece of paper so that they could get paid more.

It's funny, I think my perception of teachers, and who goes into teaching, was permanently skewed after listening to my college roommate and her classmates complain about how much reading they had to do...and then asking and finding out they meant picture books. (no, they were not talking about a textbook for the class...literally complaining about reading picture books. Not about writing about them or whatever, just reading them)

[Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do wish they had highlighted some families who had been homeschooling longer.  All of the families featured in the article had young kids and have only been homeschooling for a couple of years. 

Yes! I noticed that too.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, ktgrok said:

oh....which ties into our conversation recently here about "own voices" in books!!!

Yes, I basically think in unit studies, lol. 

Very true!   I'm usually unhappy when homeschoolers try to communicate with the "public" too though, so I apparently cannot be made happy.  lol.  I find that homeschoolers either focus too much on unschooling type stuff, or too much religion or just too much jargon.  There's always something that makes me think that they aren't presenting us in the best light.  If I ruled the world I might only let SWB and maybe Andrew Pudwa talk to non- homeschoolers about homeschooling.  Especially on tik tok!  Some of them make me cringe.  

[EKS]

12 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do wish they had highlighted some families who had been homeschooling longer. 

I know, right?  I don't think that anyone should be speaking publicly about homeschooling unless they've gotten at least one kid all the way through K-12--and preferably more than one!   

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

28 minutes ago, EKS said:

I know, right?  I don't think that anyone should be speaking publicly about homeschooling unless they've gotten at least one kid all the way through K-12--and preferably more than one!   

I’ve graduated one and know less about homeschooling now than when I started 14 years ago. So I’m not that person. Ha! I have another senior this year so maybe when she’s done I’ll be qualified. Then again, she started school today (by her own choice) and we’d already had an argument about school before 10am so it’s not looking hopeful. 

[maize]

Re: "young" homeschoolers doing the talking-- it's like my mom always said: "if you want parenting advice,  ask a parent with one child."

Mom had ten kids--she knew enough to know how little she knew.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I’ve graduated one and know less about homeschooling now than when I started 14 years ago.

This is EXACTLY my point 🤣

Edited August 21, 2023 by EKS

[Spryte]

3 hours ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I’ve graduated one and know less about homeschooling now than when I started 14 years ago. So I’m not that person. Ha! I have another senior this year so maybe when she’s done I’ll be qualified. Then again, she started school today (by her own choice) and we’d already had an argument about school before 10am so it’s not looking hopeful. 

Oh goodness, yes. I’ve graduated one (K-12) with another middle schooler coming behind, and I know nothing these days. I definitely knew more when the graduate was younger. 

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

It's funny, I think my perception of teachers, and who goes into teaching, was permanently skewed after listening to my college roommate and her classmates complain about how much reading they had to do...and then asking and finding out they meant picture books. (no, they were not talking about a textbook for the class...literally complaining about reading picture books. Not about writing about them or whatever, just reading them)

Same. And the number of them who didn’t like kids was weird. They were all horrified that I had 5. And I’m sitting there thinking but… the average classroom has 30 and they will spend more time with those kids than the parents in many cases. 

3 hours ago, maize said:

Re: "young" homeschoolers doing the talking-- it's like my mom always said: "if you want parenting advice,  ask a parent with one child."

Mom had ten kids--she knew enough to know how little she knew.

Pretty much. 11 kids, graduating 8th one this year. And what I do know isn’t going to sell tickets for a shiny rosy experience either. More of a let’s cry together over coffee atmosphere. 

[EKS]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

And the number of them who didn’t like kids was weird.

A disturbing number of elementary teachers seem to dislike boys in particular.

[BakersDozen]

6 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I don't think homeschoolers are the main target of the vouchers though.  I think the main idea is to fund private schools and homeschoolers are just added in as an after thought.  That's why the amount of money is so high, $6000-$7000 is a ton of money for homeschooling, but its a drop in the bucket for private school. 

AFC (American Federation for Children) is a HUGE factor behind the ESA, and one of its goals is to get funding for all homeschoolers. Of course AFC doesn't give two hoots about the laws in each state, so the fact that AZ homeschoolers cannot receive a penny of funding doesn't matter to them. So I think homeschooling is a very large target not just for new homeschoolers but those who have been doing so for years and are now signing up for funding (but usually not dropping the appropriate title and adopting the correct one). Those "homeschoolers" I know have their kids in 5-6 different activities, none of them cheap, all of them paid for by the taxpayers, and they use Amazon workbooks for academics. They actually boast openly about how they aren't teaching history or science (this despite those subjects being required). Home educators, at least in AZ, are the main focus of the ESA, and those new to the program (pre-expansion) are showing the most entitled, self-centered, greedy kind of behavior. 😞

I do think private schools are also a target, but in AZ the pop-up schools are absolutely staggering. Micro schools, pods, learning centers - the ESA expansion unleashed these in a crazy way. Co-ops which would have previously been parent-led with a minimal facilities fee are now organized businesses with classes kids can take for hundreds if not thousands (not kidding - $1000/semester for a class on how to brew coffee). And there is nothing in place whatsoever to make sure taxpayer funds are being used wisely. Nothing.

Edited August 21, 2023 by BakersDozen

[BakersDozen]

5 hours ago, Innisfree said:

Yes! I noticed that too.

I wonder if contacting WaPo would result in yet another article, this time from "seasoned" homeschoolers? Because it surely is a world of difference - those who've btdt for a decade or longer and those with kids age 6 and under.

[Faith-manor]

6 hours ago, ktgrok said:

It's funny, I think my perception of teachers, and who goes into teaching, was permanently skewed after listening to my college roommate and her classmates complain about how much reading they had to do...and then asking and finding out they meant picture books. (no, they were not talking about a textbook for the class...literally complaining about reading picture books. Not about writing about them or whatever, just reading them)

Yes. I get that. I really do. It seemed like when I was in college, the bar was quite low for elementary education majors, and then some would complain about the work load. 🙄 Meanwhile the secondary ed majors taking advanced physics, calculus, advanced literary analysis, etc. were working hard. I felt like the people who would be working with children to form the very foundation of their education were NOT applying themselves, and getting away with poor college educations.

Given that what we have is not working, not working at all, I would be happy I'd the bar was "subject next matter expertise in the form of associate's degree plus 10 years field experience and talks like an enthusiastic nerd about their subject" or "bachelor's degree plus total geek squad neediness and sounds like this person would get the student's attention and keep it". The other stuff isn't getting the job done. Mark's high school chem teacher was not qualified to teach the class, but got stuck with it anyone. He ended up remembering every single thing that guy taught. Basic textbook, wild geek at the helm. Of course he did nearly kill the class accidentally making chlorine gas, but the kids were smart enough to jump out the windows and doors, and thankfully, the room was on the main floor of the building! 😂 Still. He did manage to teach the basics and the students remembered it. That has to count for something even if the hazmat fire squad had to come ventilated the school after it was evacuated. 😁

In seriousness, on my side of Michigan, we just don't have the pods, micro schools, and outreach programs. Maybe that is because the state law says that the education has to take place in the student's home with a parent teaching. So means just finding community sports and music, instrument lessons, etc. for extracurricular but know real academics. There is one program called the homeschool partnership that does allow up to $350 per student for two classes a semester that are not core classes through the public school but taught by homeschoolers. The district gets the per head funding for a part time student, hire someone to administrate the program,  data person for enrollment, and then a PS licensed teacher to touch base with the students. But the vast majority of public schools do not operate one of these. And, the limits are strict. So a rocket club is a yes, but a physics class is a no because that is a core class. Virtually nothing that is labeled a math or English class is a go. History isn't a go. Nature studies would be okay. No foreign language but quilting or sewing class would be okay. Can't have band or choir, but it will go towards lessons on an instrument. plus, the student has to check in each week on their account and answer questions about what they learned that week. The instructor for these things has to register as a contracting instructor thorough the school district, pay for a background check, and pay for fingerprinting. This was about $150 a few years ago. Most of the parents who approached me wanted me to teach the entire semester of piano lessons for that $350. Take that $150 out of it, and that was $200 left for 18 weeks because we were supposed to do the 36 week PS calendar. Just over $10 a lesson. Nope. I have a bachelor's degree in piano performance and in music ed. The going rate is $30 per lesson. I would have been okay discounting it to $25 with the parents paying the $15 per lesson balance. But not less than that because in order to belong to the program, I also had to take time to report progress to the PS teacher who reviews the online student stuff every single week.

So the above thing is not popular, and very few school districts have been willing to participate. Other than that, there really isn't anything, and I don't really see the micro school or pod thing catching on. Most communities on my side of the state do not even have a loosely knit homeschool group just for play dates or an occasional field trip.

But as always, the state board of Ed can suck it because they really have sunk so low, they can't make a case for coming after homeschoolers for educational neglect. It is just that bad around here.

[Clarita]

I hear some of the comments about how unfair or awful it is that homeschool parents are spending the $7k on private music lessons, sports programs, and theme parks, but I see some public schools also spending money on non-educational stuff too. Like the giant 10 foot prison fencing around the school property, 2nd mini- gymnasium, ... . Public schools also hire people who may not have expertise in the classes they teach year to year. I don't want to seem to go what about -ism, but if I don't think one entity should have oodles more or less scrutiny than another. 

I have no skin in the game. My state is unlikely to do a voucher program. I can't even spend my vendor money from my charter school for a zoo/museum membership and I get nowhere near $7k. Since the charter school is still under the umbrellas of a public school the teachers are all credentialed and licensed (which they don't have to be for private school). Every non-consumable thing I purchase I have to return back to the school, so it's encouraged to use the funds for classes. Essentially the classes have to be approved by the school and there are rules surrounding it. Some of that is set by the schools and some by the government. 

[ScoutTN]

5 hours ago, EKS said:

A disturbing number of elementary teachers seem to dislike boys in particular.

Especially wiggly, active boys. 

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I hear some of the comments about how unfair or awful it is that homeschool parents are spending the $7k on private music lessons, sports programs, and theme parks, but I see some public schools also spending money on non-educational stuff too. Like the giant 10 foot prison fencing around the school property, 2nd mini- gymnasium, ... . Public schools also hire people who may not have expertise in the classes they teach year to year. I don't want to seem to go what about -ism, but if I don't think one entity should have oodles more or less scrutiny than another. 

 

Not to mention the disparity between schools.  I've seen videos of the wealthiest school in the country and its ridiculous.  An observatory, several Olympic pools.  Just absurd when so many schools are literally falling down.  But even taking away the extreme extremes, there's a huge variation in what schools provide from town to town, even within a state.  So should ESA funds be limited to ones local schools offerings, or to any public school in the state?  Someone mentioned a kayak earlier, which struck me as being a bit much, but some schools do offer rowing as a sport which seems comparable.    The ESA discussion is made more complicated with the school system of extreme haves and extreme have nots.  

[Eos]

11 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I basically think in unit studies

Sister on another coast...

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Not to mention the disparity between schools.  I've seen videos of the wealthiest school in the country and it’s ridiculous.  An observatory, several Olympic pools.  Just absurd when so many schools are literally falling down.  But even taking away the extreme extremes, there's a huge variation in what schools provide from town to town, even within a state.  So should ESA funds be limited to ones local schools offerings, or to any public school in the state?  Someone mentioned a kayak earlier, which struck me as being a bit much, but some schools do offer rowing as a sport which seems comparable.    The ESA discussion is made more complicated with the school system of extreme haves and extreme have nots.  

In my county, within 20 miles of each other there are schools that don’t have math books or functional Chromebooks and more than 60% of the student are on food stamp lunches in one district and in another the school has Olympic pools and an observatory and a performance arts theatre that rivals the major professional arts theatre downtown.  Both are public schools in the same county.

It’s not that I’m against any school having olympic pools and observatories. In fact, if I had my druthers, every district would have an Olympic pool.

But I am against any public district having that when there’s any district in the same county that doesn’t have basic functioning general facilities and materials to get a basic education.

[happypamama]

12 hours ago, maize said:

Re: "young" homeschoolers doing the talking-- it's like my mom always said: "if you want parenting advice,  ask a parent with one child."

Mom had ten kids--she knew enough to know how little she knew.

Agreed!!

When people talk about reasons they homeschool, I have many, and the importance of them varies from day to day.  Sometimes it's for the flexibility, sometimes it's so my children can attend to their bodily functions on their own timetables, sometimes it's for academics. . . 

Honestly, though, the real reason I homeschool: I want to, I like it, and I can.  And my children want to be here, like being here, and can learn here.  That's really about all I truly have to say about it.  

[BakersDozen]

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

I hear some of the comments about how unfair or awful it is that homeschool parents are spending the $7k on private music lessons, sports programs, and theme parks, but I see some public schools also spending money on non-educational stuff too. Like the giant 10 foot prison fencing around the school property, 2nd mini- gymnasium, ... . Public schools also hire people who may not have expertise in the classes they teach year to year. I don't want to seem to go what about -ism, but if I don't think one entity should have oodles more or less scrutiny than another. 

This is very much what the back-and-forth discussion (or argument) is between the ESA proponents and the public school proponents (against the ESA, that is). ESA proponents point out the gross misspending of funds in the schools, the lack of good outcome, etc. And I agree, but what is the solution? There were parents in AZ who were livid as they shelled out $$ for back-to-school supplies even while ESA students were having $100 backpacks (true story) and pretty much anything one can think of paid for by public funds. I can see why parents are angry, and I can see other parents don't welcome the scrutiny for the ESA program. But again, is there a solution? The governor wants to roll back the program to pre-expansion levels which I'm guessing will never happen, but this is a growing issue and I don't see a happy outcome. Should the change come in the schools? Should everything ESA students have access to (including kayaks and espresso machines) also be provided to public and now private school students if requested? Should parents be given access to part of their public school student's funds so as to get swim lessons, sports fees/equipment, camps and such paid for? Should the requirement for teachers be the same for ESA as it is for public school?

All of these questions are being thrown around here in AZ, sides are up in arms and yelling at each other, there is a rift in the community of those educating our children at home which I have not seen since I began homeschooling in 2000, and it's just a mess. This is why it was voted down twice - politicians on both sides recognized it as unmanageable, unfair, and unwise.

And I don't have any good answers, so I hide in my little homeschool corner and watch this all unfold.