Is it possible to teach someone how to have a positive outlook on life?

[TheReader]

Just that....can it be taught? 

Person A sees and gets weighed down by the bad in everything, and this affects that person's mood, attitude, etc. for the remainder of the day - they can't shake it off. 

Person B is able to find the good in whatever thing, focus on that, and thus shake off the bad mood that wants to set in. 

For example -- Person B used to routinely be the brunt of/recipient of all out  fights perpetrated by one child. The child would rage/tantrum/meltdown in epic proportions, hitting, kicking, scratching, etc. Person B.  Person B would, when the episode was over, make the effort to note "well, today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15" or "well, no scratches today, that's good" or whatever.  It took conscious effort, for a year or more, but now, Person B defaults to that.  (Person B never retaliated or reacted physically to the child, who is now a nearly-grown-up teen).

Can Person A learn to do the same thing/can it be taught to them? Are there other techniques that can be suggested? 

Also, if you are Person B in this scenario, and have a Person A like this, are there tips/techniques for not being weighed down yourself by this? 

If you are Person A, and have a Person B like this, do you have tips or suggestions for what you want your Person B to do to help encourage you? 

(someone's bound to say "person a should see a therapist" -- yes, probably, but they won't; person b is debating it for themself, though....)

Edited November 10, 2022 by TheReader
clarity

[catz]

I assume we are talking about 2 adults here.  Person A is only going to change if they want to change.  Person B is not responsible for Person A.  Person B best response will be putting in clear boundaries that they can't carry person A's negative attitude.  Which can be a fine line depending on relationships.  Like in family, I don't think everyone should always have to be bright and sunny and you should also be able to vent occassionally.  But I think it is fine to call out poor emotional response and inability to carry someone else's constant negativity.  Like maybe you schedule a time to vent to each other and call it done.  

The fact that person B is having "all out fights" with a child tells me there is may be unhealthy behavior all around here.  Why engage with a physically tantruming child?  Also, that is not likely normal behavior.  The child probably needs help.  

Edited November 10, 2022 by catz

[Elizabeth86]

I’m often described as negative, but truly I don’t feel so negative in my own mind. It is all driven by my anxiety. I’d like to not feel that way, but it is just who I am at this point. My dh is not an optimist, not sure what you call it, but he just thinks whatever will happen will happen and there is no use worrying or thinking about and you just accept it and that’s just how it is. He doesn’t really see the glass as half full. It’s just there’s a glass of water.  He hates my “negativity” I work on just keeping it to myself because I hate to be bringing people down all the time. 🤷‍♀️ I don’t think optimism can be taught. Faked perhaps. Maybe for some, but for me I don’t think I can really think optimistically.  To add I am a ok at being optimistic in the present, but when thinking/worrying about future events I am usually negative.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Elizabeth86

[TheReader]

4 minutes ago, catz said:

I assume we are talking about 2 adults here.  Person A is only going to change if they want to change.  Person B is not responsible for Person A.  Person B best response will be putting in clear boundaries that they can't carry person A's negative attitude.  Which can be a fine line depending on relationships.  Like in family, I don't think everyone should always have to be bright and sunny and you should also be able to vent occassionally.  But I think it is fine to call out poor emotional response and inability to carry someone else's constant negativity.  Like maybe you schedule a time to vent to each other and call it done.  

The fact that person B is having "all out fights" with a child tells me there is may be unhealthy behavior all around here.  Why engage with a physically tantruming child?  Also, that is not likely normal behavior.  The child probably needs help.  

To clarify: the fights with the tantruming child were years ago, when the child was young and was the one doing all the fighting - not the parent. The parent was the recipient of the scratches, hits, kicks, etc. and used this method of coping -- "oh, I didn't get scratched today, only hit.." as a means of maintaining a positive relationship with said child (there were at the time undx'ed stuff going on that has since been taken care of, and child is now a nice, calm, pleasant almost grown up). 

[TheReader]

7 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

I’m often described as negative, but truly I don’t feel so negative in my own mind. It is all driven by my anxiety. I’d like to not feel that way, but it is just who I am at this point. My dh is not an optimist, not sure what you call it, but he just thinks whatever will happen will happen and there is no use worrying or thinking about and you just accept it and that’s just how it is. He doesn’t really see the glass as half full. It’s just there’s a glass of water.  He hates my “negativity” I work on just keeping it to myself because I hate to be bringing people down all the time. 🤷‍♀️ I don’t think optimism can be taught. Faked perhaps. Maybe for some, but for me I don’t think I can really think optimistically. 

Hugs to you.  I definitely don't want to have him feel like he can't share. I'm sorry you feel that way. In our house, the mood is palpable whether words are spoken or not....in many cases, words would be better, b/c then the family would all know what's the root of the mood, not be left wondering. Conversations to try and explain that have not resulted in any change. 

[TheReader]

10 minutes ago, catz said:

I assume we are talking about 2 adults here.  Person A is only going to change if they want to change.  Person B is not responsible for Person A.  Person B best response will be putting in clear boundaries that they can't carry person A's negative attitude.  Which can be a fine line depending on relationships.  Like in family, I don't think everyone should always have to be bright and sunny and you should also be able to vent occassionally.  But I think it is fine to call out poor emotional response and inability to carry someone else's constant negativity.  Like maybe you schedule a time to vent to each other and call it done.  

The fact that person B is having "all out fights" with a child tells me there is may be unhealthy behavior all around here.  Why engage with a physically tantruming child?  Also, that is not likely normal behavior.  The child probably needs help.  

re: how to set boundaries.....certainly people are allowed to be upset, vent to one another, etc. but how do you set up boundaries about mood? 

(hmm, as I'm thinking about this....one of the boys used to just be moody all the time. we just made a rule, you can be in your bad mood, you can't put everyone else in one, we're not going to not do stuff b/c you are grumpy.....so, maybe a version of that? The whole "come out when you're ready to be pleasant" kind of thing....?)

[Elizabeth86]

3 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Hugs to you.  I definitely don't want to have him feel like he can't share. I'm sorry you feel that way. In our house, the mood is palpable whether words are spoken or not....in many cases, words would be better, b/c then the family would all know what's the root of the mood, not be left wondering. Conversations to try and explain that have not resulted in any change. 

It’s just really hard to change people. There are many things about my husband I’ve wanted to change over the years, but it never works. I have other family I’d like to change too and they also never change. I’ve given up and just focus on my own problems. 🤣

 

 

[sassenach]

I believe it's possible for a negative person to *learn* a more positive mindset, but no, I don't think it's possible for anyone to *teach* positivity. Change is an inside job. 

[shawthorne44]

My MIL is gloomy.   She firmly believes that every silver lining has a grey cloud.  
DD takes after her.   Since she could talk, I always ask DD "What was your favorite part of ..." whenever we had just done.  I think it has helped.  

[livetoread]

Martin Seligman haș several books about learning optimism, and they are good. They are focused on recognizing and changing thought patterns. In my experience, it's more difficult to recognize and change those thought patterns (a logical and intellectual exercise) when a good chunk of your pessimism is driven by strong, negative emotions. He would argue that changing thinking can change emotions and I agree to an extent, but some people are flooded with such deep, strong feelings that they find thinking difficult. Learning how to cope with the feelings better can create space to alter the thoughts.

[TheReader]

20 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I believe it's possible for a negative person to *learn* a more positive mindset, but no, I don't think it's possible for anyone to *teach* positivity. Change is an inside job. 

true.  very true. 

thanks for reminding me. 

[TheReader]

Just now, livetoread said:

Martin Seligman haș several books about learning optimism, and they are good. They are focused on recognizing and changing thought patterns. In my experience, it's more difficult to recognize and change those thought patterns (a logical and intellectual exercise) when a good chunk of your pessimism is driven by strong, negative emotions. He would argue that changing thinking can change emotions and I agree to an extent, but some people are flooded with such deep, strong feelings that they find thinking difficult. Learning how to cope with the feelings better can create space to alter the thoughts.

I'll look for the books, thank you.  Definitely also a need to learn to cope with the feelings....that part's harder for sure. 

[Junie]

We've been working on some of that here, too.

Earlier this week, someone accused someone else of ruining their day.  I pointed out that if your day is ruined because of someone else, that is *your* fault, not theirs.  Other people's bad attitudes, while unpleasant, don't have to ruin your day.  Your response to their bad attitude is important.

[TheReader]

2 minutes ago, Junie said:

We've been working on some of that here, too.

Earlier this week, someone accused someone else of ruining their day.  I pointed out that if your day is ruined because of someone else, that is *your* fault, not theirs.  Other people's bad attitudes, while unpleasant, don't have to ruin your day.  Your response to their bad attitude is important.

This is very true. Also very difficult, at times.  Here, the gloomy person has emotions/moods that just....vibrate....and affect everyone around them. It is exhausting to constantly remain afloat and not dragged under.  It is mildly easier now that the other people in the house don't need me as a life buoy as well. 

The cumulative stress of the last 3 years is, I'm sure, a major factor. And the fact said gloomy person has been working from home since, thus giving them no change of scenery/break from us, and us no break from them. They are resistant to returning to the office though, and on non-gloomy days, it's wonderful having them home (and, ha, our life wouldn't function these days w/o that flexibility). 

Probably I should ask the better question -- if you are the non-gloomy one, how do you not be drowned by it? That's the part that *I* can control, assuming I can learn a way. 

[forty-two]

I am Person B, but I'm not sure it's an unalloyed good.  Sometimes I'm reflexively looking at the positive because I can't handle negative feelings - it allows me to avoid having to learn how. And that's been a problem, because I'm fairly empathic (in the colloquial sense of feeling others' emotions as if they were my own), and for a long time I couldn't handle people being sad at me.  My toolbox was limited to "trying to help/make them feel better", either by solving the problem making them feel bad or by solving the feeling bad (aka hugging it better - which does work surprisingly well).  Letting them just feel bad about a bad situation wasn't on the table, because I couldn't handle the emotions, even by proxy. 

And, secondly, I think reflexively looking for the silver lining, to make the cloud something I can live with, sometimes leads to me minimizing the cloud as "not that bad".  And sometimes that's not really true - the cloud *is* bad, is something that really should not be, and focusing on the 5% silver lining and dismissing the 95% bad as "not that bad" - well, it's a distorted, false view of reality, and it causes me to be blase about things that maybe I really shouldn't be blase about.  That finding the silver lining is good, but it is also good to acknowledge the bad for what it is - and that feeling bad about bad things is perhaps *more* appropriate than ignoring/minimizing the bad in favor of a laser-focus on the good.

So, in good Person B fashion ;), maybe try to reframe things a bit, to think of the strengths that Person A's approach brings to the table.  It helps me to separate my own big feelings from theirs when I can acknowledge that their feelings, though painful, are nevertheless a reality-based response to the situation.  (And with kids whose big emotions are maybe an overreaction, I do try to gently help them calibrate the intensity of the emotions to the intensity of the problem, while also considering whether the problem they are dealing with is in fact more intense than it looks to me from the outside.  And I tell myself the very same thing, when it comes to how upset and panicky other people's big feelings make me feel - it's *not* the big problem it feels like, I *don't* have to go into overdrive trying to make it go away.)  It helps me deal with it when I can remind myself that their feeling bad *isn't* my responsibility to fix, that helping someone doesn't have to mean making them feel better - that feeling bad about bad things is painful but *good*. 

But that said, sometimes it's still really painful for me to deal with.  When it comes to small-ish things - ranting about computer problems, for instance - I've come right out and said that the unproductive ranting is very hard for me to deal with, and asked them to not do it around me.  Ditto for silently making it everyone else's problem.  For bigger things - where it's just bad, and there's nothing to be said for it - I do what I can to help and quietly go hide when I need to.  Ditto if it's small but they are just being upset without trying to inflict it on the rest of us.  It's ok for them to be sad - and acknowledging that helps me separate myself from their feelings - and it's ok for me to take a break from feeling their sad when I need to.

[forty-two]

14 minutes ago, TheReader said:

The cumulative stress of the last 3 years is, I'm sure, a major factor. And the fact said gloomy person has been working from home since, thus giving them no change of scenery/break from us, and us no break from them. They are resistant to returning to the office though, and on non-gloomy days, it's wonderful having them home (and, ha, our life wouldn't function these days w/o that flexibility). 

Probably I should ask the better question -- if you are the non-gloomy one, how do you not be drowned by it? That's the part that *I* can control, assuming I can learn a way.

Being proactive about managing my own stress is probably the biggest thing I can do to increase my ability to handle it.  Negative feelings I can't fix cause me stress, and I can handle it better if I'm not at red alert from a bunch of other stuff.  For me, that means being proactive about physical stuff - twice-daily stretching and daily walks.  Also watching what I eat - not eating a bunch of sugary, carby crap (which, of course, is my favorite way to deal with stress, even though it's ultimately counterproductive <sigh>).

[Clarita]

My thoughts are that it's OK to be a positive person and it's OK to be a negative person. As a society we give the message and feel like positive person is the way to be, because those people are nicer to hang around. It is not always good to be a positive person because we do need to deal with our negative feelings and really acknowledge a situation is terrible and makes me feel terrible.

What you can teach a negative person is how they behave after having their negative feelings. It's OK for them to feel bummed and feel bummed for a while, but it's not OK for them to hit people, say mean things to people to make them as bummed as them. It's also on those closest to negative person to acknowledge their unhappiness and make the unhappiness OK. Even to the point of feeling the negative feelings with them and being in that uncomfortable space as a positive person.

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

Person B would, when the episode was over, make the effort to note "well, today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15" or "well, no scratches today, that's good" or whatever.  It took conscious effort, for a year or more, but now, Person B defaults to that.  (Person B never retaliated or reacted physically to the child, who is now a nearly-grown-up teen).

For example the way person B said "well, today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15" etc. is not good. It really makes person A not "heard" and throwing a tantrum is not OK even if it happened to not result in bruises and scratches. Person A can say those things internally to help them cope but not to person B. To person B it should be a clear message "I don't like tantrums and being treated like that. I still love you, but those types of behaviors make it so I don't want to hang out with you. If you do want me to leave you alone you can just kindly ask me to leave you alone."

[Clarita]

20 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Probably I should ask the better question -- if you are the non-gloomy one, how do you not be drowned by it? That's the part that *I* can control, assuming I can learn a way. 

MY son is more negative than I am and definitely more negative longer. This triggers me. Mostly I recognize that it is a trigger for me and sometimes when I deal with his bad outbursts I need to be a robot, just telling him what behaviors are OK and not OK and offering my support. On a later day when I'm not triggered and can think more clearly then we discuss what he is looking for or needs in those moments, what he did that was inappropriate and what OK thing he can do to ask me for what he needs. As for the duration of his gloominess, sometimes we just take a break from each other. My son is super young (6) so our breaks aren't that long.

The Explosive Child really helped me to be able to parent someone who does not have the initial reaction that society desires.   

[gardenmom5]

Yes, it's possible to change a person's outlook.  But it does take effort.  

it starts with finding one good thing, then two good things.  If person is constantly whining to you, ask them to tell you something they're grateful for in their life.  It can't be "esoteric", it needs to be concrete.   and every time you do ask, they can't just repeat the same thing every time.

[prairiewindmomma]

Are we talking about internal thought processes or are we talking about overall emotional regulation? ITA about change coming from within and our inability to change another….but encouraging access to proper mental health support (addressing anxiety and depression) and dealing with emotional regulation issues in a non-NT person are different issues, imo, even though there can be overlap.

[Melissa Louise]

Does the person have a mood disorder? It's really hard to be 'positive' if so, given lack of positive effect kinda goes with the territory.

If they do, are they in treatment ? (Acknowledging that treatment resistant depression exists).

Absent depression, temperament is somewhat inbuilt. 

It's less a matter of changing another person's temperament, and more a matter of setting your own boundaries..

Person B probably needs to recognize an element of luck in their own temperament, where they can 'shake things off'. 

Person A is on their own journey, which may or may not include embracing positive psychology. 

It's possibly more useful to think about this problem in terms of household dynamics rather than locating all of the problem in one person. 

Good luck! I can be the negative person, and I have lived with negative people, and it is difficult. 

 

[regentrude]

Could the person be suffering from depression? If so, they may need professional help - admonishments, gratitude exercises, and modeled positivity are not a cure.

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Yes, it's possible to change a person's outlook.  But it does take effort.  

it starts with finding one good thing, then two good things.  If person is constantly whining to you, ask them to tell you something they're grateful for in their life.  It can't be "esoteric", it needs to be concrete.   and every time you do ask, they can't just repeat the same thing every time.

Unless the person suffers from depression... then, these gratitude exercises can have the opposite effect and cause them to feel even worse because they now feel guilty that they cannot be positive even though they have so much to be thankful for

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Unless the person suffers from depression... then, these gratitude exercises can have the opposite effect and cause them to feel even worse because they now feel guilty that they cannot be positive even though they have so much to be thankful for

I've dealt with depression in my family . . . . . . 

Depression is far different than always looking on the negative side of life.  My impression from the OP was she's dealing with someone who is just  . . . negative, not depressed.   

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Could the person be suffering from depression? If so, they may need professional help - admonishments, gratitude exercises, and modeled positivity are not a cure.

Or chronic stress . . . . it's not "depression" per se, but the effect upon the brain is similar.

[Carol in Cal.]

Internally—I find that thinking of things to be thankful for, every day, makes my heart sing, at least temporarily, and improves my overall mood.  So i would be inclined to institute a family gratitude time, or maybe just a marital one, where everyone has to think of something to be thankful for, and see if that helps over time.

Also, internally, there is a some very happy music that I find extremely engaging—this varies a lot from person to person, but it tends to override negative moods to a large extent for me.  It’s good to have that in mind to turn to, I find.  I can just play it in my head, I don’t necessarily have to blast it out loud, but blasting it out loud is undeniably even better.  I’m sure my playlist would not be helpful but people can develop their own.

Walking in sunshine is not always possible but it can be helpful to some in my family.

Externally, I would say that, “I go off by myself when I am too upset to be good company.”  And in extreme cases, “Maybe you should, too.”  

And also, “Ya know, you’re bringing me down, going on and on about that stuff.”

And also, “Complaining does not seem to be helping you feel better or solve anything, and it’s making me feel a lot worse.”

And also, modeling things like adding ‘up until now’ at the end of negative experience listings, like, “I never have been good at math and this has held me back” changed to “I’ve never been good at math, which has held me back, up until now, … (insert reframing thought here).

[TheReader]

25 minutes ago, Clarita said:

My thoughts are that it's OK to be a positive person and it's OK to be a negative person. As a society we give the message and feel like positive person is the way to be, because those people are nicer to hang around. It is not always good to be a positive person because we do need to deal with our negative feelings and really acknowledge a situation is terrible and makes me feel terrible.

What you can teach a negative person is how they behave after having their negative feelings. It's OK for them to feel bummed and feel bummed for a while, but it's not OK for them to hit people, say mean things to people to make them as bummed as them. It's also on those closest to negative person to acknowledge their unhappiness and make the unhappiness OK. Even to the point of feeling the negative feelings with them and being in that uncomfortable space as a positive person.

For example the way person B said "well, today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15" etc. is not good. It really makes person A not "heard" and throwing a tantrum is not OK even if it happened to not result in bruises and scratches. Person A can say those things internally to help them cope but not to person B. To person B it should be a clear message "I don't like tantrums and being treated like that. I still love you, but those types of behaviors make it so I don't want to hang out with you. If you do want me to leave you alone you can just kindly ask me to leave you alone."

re: the bold -- as Person B, the bright-side-finding comment ("today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15") was my own internal dialogue, not spoken outloud to anyone, just my internal view to get through the day -- to shift my own thoughts from "here we are on the 57th tantrum in a row, I cannot stand this child" and to, instead, a healthier "hey, these tantrums are slowly but surely improving, and there is hope, and look, today's was shorter, so that's good" so that I could still parent that child with a positive attitude and still endure the tantrums-to-come, because I'd framed them now in my mind as a thing that was improving. 

That was never verbalized to the kid (who is not Person A), nor do I use that technique outloud with Person A when they are being negative. It was just an example of how I reframe things, in my own mind, to shift my attitude, and wondering if that kind of shift can be taught/learned or not (so, could Person A learn to use that technique themselves with negative things that happen). 

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Unless the person suffers from depression... then, these gratitude exercises can have the opposite effect and cause them to feel even worse because they now feel guilty that they cannot be positive even though they have so much to be thankful for

I actually quite like doing gratitude exercises, but if anyone was suggesting I should do them because I had the moral flaw of being negative, I would not be able to engage with gratitude at all! It's a great way to activate a person's inner critic. 

[regentrude]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I actually quite like doing gratitude exercises, but if anyone was suggesting I should do them because I had the moral flaw of being negative, I would not be able to engage with gratitude at all! It's a great way to activate a person's inner critic. 

I like them when I am *well*.

When I was depressed,  they made me feel worse, and when I was struggling with the impendind loss of my father, the suggestion to focus on gratitude felt so completely insensitive that I haven't been able to resume a relationship with that person.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, TheReader said:

re: the bold -- as Person B, the bright-side-finding comment ("today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15") was my own internal dialogue, not spoken outloud to anyone, just my internal view to get through the day -- to shift my own thoughts from "here we are on the 57th tantrum in a row, I cannot stand this child" and to, instead, a healthier "hey, these tantrums are slowly but surely improving, and there is hope, and look, today's was shorter, so that's good" so that I could still parent that child with a positive attitude and still endure the tantrums-to-come, because I'd framed them now in my mind as a thing that was improving. 

That was never verbalized to the kid (who is not Person A), nor do I use that technique outloud with Person A when they are being negative. It was just an example of how I reframe things, in my own mind, to shift my attitude, and wondering if that kind of shift can be taught/learned or not (so, could Person A learn to use that technique themselves with negative things that happen). 

Reframing is a skill that can be taught. 

It's my experience that emotional validation needs to go alongside the focus on skills. 

Imagine it like an internal weather system. You wake up, and it's mild weather. The person wakes up and it's a storm. Yes, they can learn to bring an umbrella and wear their psychic gumboots, but oh man, it sucks to wake up to the storm. 

 

[TheReader]

6 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Or chronic stress . . . . it's not "depression" per se, but the effect upon the brain is similar.

yes, I definitely think chronic stress is at play. I definitely think Person A should seek help from someone outside the family and someone qualified to provide such help. I do not think they will. 

Probably I should also, just to learn ways to handle my own reactions/responses to the constant.....the best term I can think of is "emotional atmosphere"...that pervades the house.  Whether that's negativity, gloom, depression, stress, attitude, thought process.....I do not know. I know that a cloud settles, and I have no idea how to get out from under it. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, regentrude said:

I like them when I am *well*.

When I was depressed,  they made me feel worse, and when I was struggling with the impendind loss of my father, the suggestion to focus on gratitude felt so completely insensitive that I haven't been able to resume a relationship with that person.

Yes, absolutely.

It's a way of trying to manage others rather than, as in the person suggesting gratitude re a dying parent, dealing with ones own discomfort with sadness etc. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, TheReader said:

yes, I definitely think chronic stress is at play. I definitely think Person A should seek help from someone outside the family and someone qualified to provide such help. I do not think they will. 

Probably I should also, just to learn ways to handle my own reactions/responses to the constant.....the best term I can think of is "emotional atmosphere"...that pervades the house.  Whether that's negativity, gloom, depression, stress, attitude, thought process.....I do not know. I know that a cloud settles, and I have no idea how to get out from under it. 

That's all you can do, other than asking the person to move out (and that is a valid request for an adult). 

It's possible to learn emotional detachment from the 'negative' other - you learn to see the cloud but not be under it. 

 

[gardenmom5]

Humor.

Dh's father was a Japanese POW for 3 1/2 years.  They used humor - a lot.  twisted, but still humor.  (they also shared recipes - I'd love a copy of that cookbook that was printed after they were repatriated, i've seen pictures of it - or favorite restaurants. needless to say, they were obsessed with food.)

during some very difficult times, we used humor.  very twisted humor - but still humor.

e.g. 'how are you?" - hanging in there, by the neck until dead. . . or "hanging by my fingernails" ..

one that still makes me smile is "I'm going to find the silver lining in this cloud even if I have to wring it out myself!"
 

 

[TheReader]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Reframing is a skill that can be taught. 

It's my experience that emotional validation needs to go alongside the focus on skills. 

Imagine it like an internal weather system. You wake up, and it's mild weather. The person wakes up and it's a storm. Yes, they can learn to bring an umbrella and wear their psychic gumboots, but oh man, it sucks to wake up to the storm. 

 

This is really helpful, actually. Thank you. 

I think my problem is in feeling like I need to be the umbrella bringer, poncho holder, etc. for the person in the storm, for myself (to not get swamped by their storm), for the other family members (who are fairly good now at navigating this on their own but didn't used to be, so it's still ingrained in me to be prepared enough for everyone). 

I hope and pray I'm not ever making Person A feel....guilty? inadequate? bad? worse about theirself?....for the fact they have this storm inside them. I really really really try not to.  In conversations, they've sometimes stated things like "I know I'm in a bad mood a lot lately, and I'm trying to snap out of it" -- it's in those conversations when I've asked "have you ever tried.....(insert thing here, such as a gratitude journal, or acknowledging a good thing in the midst of a bad thing, or at the end of the day, finding one best thing of the day)"   Otherwise I try not to offer advice unless asked, try to listen in the times they share whatever it is that's bringing them down that day, try to empathize ("man, that stinks...I would hate to deal with that...."), do not try to fix it, do not say things like "seriously, that bothers you?" or anything, etc. 

I might, if it's a small thing, and we're discussing it, offer a positive outlook if I see one. I have no idea if that's helpful or harmful, but I hope I'm not making it worse. 

[TheReader]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

That's all you can do, other than asking the person to move out (and that is a valid request for an adult). 

It's possible to learn emotional detachment from the 'negative' other - you learn to see the cloud but not be under it. 

 

Can't ask him to move out, and wouldn't. I need to work on this emotional detachment....on giving myself permission to even physically take a break at times. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, TheReader said:

This is really helpful, actually. Thank you. 

I think my problem is in feeling like I need to be the umbrella bringer, poncho holder, etc. for the person in the storm, for myself (to not get swamped by their storm), for the other family members (who are fairly good now at navigating this on their own but didn't used to be, so it's still ingrained in me to be prepared enough for everyone). 

I hope and pray I'm not ever making Person A feel....guilty? inadequate? bad? worse about theirself?....for the fact they have this storm inside them. I really really really try not to.  In conversations, they've sometimes stated things like "I know I'm in a bad mood a lot lately, and I'm trying to snap out of it" -- it's in those conversations when I've asked "have you ever tried.....(insert thing here, such as a gratitude journal, or acknowledging a good thing in the midst of a bad thing, or at the end of the day, finding one best thing of the day)"   Otherwise I try not to offer advice unless asked, try to listen in the times they share whatever it is that's bringing them down that day, try to empathize ("man, that stinks...I would hate to deal with that...."), do not try to fix it, do not say things like "seriously, that bothers you?" or anything, etc. 

I might, if it's a small thing, and we're discussing it, offer a positive outlook if I see one. I have no idea if that's helpful or harmful, but I hope I'm not making it worse. 

I have historically been the umbrella bringer for my person. It was appropriate when they were a child/teen. It isn't now they are well into adulthood. 

I say that to.let you know I am not judging when I tell you that advice giving to an adult just perpetuates the dynamic. 

This person is grown, and cognitively functioning. They can look up advice on the internet if they want it. 

I definitely agree with you that, given we can only control ourselves, taking that energy and giving it to yourself and your boundaries would be appropriate. 

[Farrar]

I've seen people change their outlook like you describe - through wanting to change followed by practicing doing so. But I've also seen people try and fail. I don't think it's as straightforward as all that. And saying that something is possible doesn't mean that it's possible for everyone. Like, sure, theoretically anyone can learn to sing and lots of people who can't sing can get better at singing with some training. But some people are tone deaf. Or have a chronic condition that makes their vocal chords not work super well or something. Just because something is learnable doesn't mean everyone has equal access and that equal effort will get there where they want. And sometimes trying to get there can make it worse. To extend the metaphor, if you want to be able to sing and make your goal to get a solo in the choir, if you're tone deaf and keep not achieving the goal, that can make you feel worse than before.

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Can't ask him to move out, and wouldn't. I need to work on this emotional detachment....on giving myself permission to even physically take a break at times. 

Yes. It is hard to live with an internally stormy person. You must give yourself permission to have a break. You deserve that!

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, TheReader said:

yes, I definitely think chronic stress is at play. I definitely think Person A should seek help from someone outside the family and someone qualified to provide such help. I do not think they will. 

Probably I should also, just to learn ways to handle my own reactions/responses to the constant.....the best term I can think of is "emotional atmosphere"...that pervades the house.  Whether that's negativity, gloom, depression, stress, attitude, thought process.....I do not know. I know that a cloud settles, and I have no idea how to get out from under it. 

One thing 2dd was taught when counseling patients - "this will help you sleep" when dispensing antidepressants with men, as then they are more likely to take it.  "this will help lower stress" vs this will help with your depression. . . 

I put dh on gaba (pretty low level stuff) to help his stress/irritability, and he would lie to me about taking it.  I finally called him on it, and he finally started actually taking it.  and has admitted it helps.

there are multiple things that can help with chronic stress before having to get Rx (not against RX) - and for stress, one of the effects on the body is how much b-vitamins it uses often leaving the person depleted and making things worse.  A good b-complex can help, at least to take the edge off even if a rx is still required.  (having adequate b-levels will allow Rx to work more effectively.)

[TheReader]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

One thing 2dd was taught when counseling patients - "this will help you sleep" when dispensing antidepressants with men, as then they are more likely to take it.  "this will help lower stress" vs this will help with your depression. . . 

I put dh on gaba (pretty low level stuff) to help his stress/irritability, and he would lie to me about taking it.  I finally called him on it, and he finally started actually taking it.  and has admitted it helps.

there are multiple things that can help with chronic stress before having to get Rx (not against RX) - and for stress, one of the effects on the body is how much b-vitamins it uses often leaving the person depleted and making things worse.  A good b-complex can help, at least to take the edge off even if a rx is still required.  (having adequate b-levels will allow Rx to work more effectively.)

Oh, that's helpful! 

A b-vitamin would be doable. Thank you. 

[Indigo Blue]

Deleting because I don’t think my two cents was relative or helpful. This is hard, and it’s hard not to let others affect our mental state. Others are giving better advice, so I’ll just say I hope something here helps. ❤️

Edited November 10, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[prairiewindmomma]

Social isolation (now working from home) plus aging (the hormonal shifts around 50 happen to men also) can do a number on us. The more you post, the more I think you may have a household member struggling with depression.

Rather than suggesting reframing thoughts with them, for me, in my household, I would say things like, “That’s got to be really hard. I have noticed a, b, and c. Have you ever considered you might be struggling with depression? If your brain chemistry is off, have you thought about talking to your doctor about that?” and then just letting it go. (Or maybe they need more support like, “here’s the number to a therapist who is accepting appointments with our insurance” or “I am happy to support you however I can, if you want me to help get you scheduled for an appointment I can do that.” Every household dynamic is different.)

[catz]

I will say I had PPD and likely struggled with low grade depression and anxiety prior and until the PPD was I able to recognize my prior mood patterns.  People can and do have mental health struggles without understanding them or knowing it.  So I wouldn't toss that off as an option.  I personally am much better able to regulate my own moods and being self aware how it affects others since going through treatment for PPD.  I know you can't force anyone into following up on this.   But acknowledging and calling out emotionally unhealthy patterns and stepping away might at least be helpful to you.  

I admit I have struggled with anxiety and mood and having my husband home full time for the last 2 1/2 years has not been great.  I am starting to resume some social events, he does go back to the office sometimes now and it has definitely helped.  I feel like when we're all together all the time we have nothing to talk about at the end of the day.  It WAS depressing.  

[TheReader]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

Deleting because I don’t think my two cents was relative or helpful. This is hard, and it’s hard not to let others affect our mental state. Others are giving better advice, so I’ll just say I hope something here helps. ❤️

I didn't see it, but I'd welcome it via PM if you don't mind sharing.  You never know what side of things might spark something, and even if it was opposite or different from what's been said so far, who knows. 

If it ends up way off base, I won't be annoyed with you for having shared it. 

[TheReader]

2 hours ago, forty-two said:

I am Person B, but I'm not sure it's an unalloyed good.  Sometimes I'm reflexively looking at the positive because I can't handle negative feelings - it allows me to avoid having to learn how. And that's been a problem, because I'm fairly empathic (in the colloquial sense of feeling others' emotions as if they were my own), and for a long time I couldn't handle people being sad at me.  My toolbox was limited to "trying to help/make them feel better", either by solving the problem making them feel bad or by solving the feeling bad (aka hugging it better - which does work surprisingly well).  Letting them just feel bad about a bad situation wasn't on the table, because I couldn't handle the emotions, even by proxy. 

And, secondly, I think reflexively looking for the silver lining, to make the cloud something I can live with, sometimes leads to me minimizing the cloud as "not that bad".  And sometimes that's not really true - the cloud *is* bad, is something that really should not be, and focusing on the 5% silver lining and dismissing the 95% bad as "not that bad" - well, it's a distorted, false view of reality, and it causes me to be blase about things that maybe I really shouldn't be blase about.  That finding the silver lining is good, but it is also good to acknowledge the bad for what it is - and that feeling bad about bad things is perhaps *more* appropriate than ignoring/minimizing the bad in favor of a laser-focus on the good.

So, in good Person B fashion ;), maybe try to reframe things a bit, to think of the strengths that Person A's approach brings to the table.  It helps me to separate my own big feelings from theirs when I can acknowledge that their feelings, though painful, are nevertheless a reality-based response to the situation.  (And with kids whose big emotions are maybe an overreaction, I do try to gently help them calibrate the intensity of the emotions to the intensity of the problem, while also considering whether the problem they are dealing with is in fact more intense than it looks to me from the outside.  And I tell myself the very same thing, when it comes to how upset and panicky other people's big feelings make me feel - it's *not* the big problem it feels like, I *don't* have to go into overdrive trying to make it go away.)  It helps me deal with it when I can remind myself that their feeling bad *isn't* my responsibility to fix, that helping someone doesn't have to mean making them feel better - that feeling bad about bad things is painful but *good*. 

But that said, sometimes it's still really painful for me to deal with.  When it comes to small-ish things - ranting about computer problems, for instance - I've come right out and said that the unproductive ranting is very hard for me to deal with, and asked them to not do it around me.  Ditto for silently making it everyone else's problem.  For bigger things - where it's just bad, and there's nothing to be said for it - I do what I can to help and quietly go hide when I need to.  Ditto if it's small but they are just being upset without trying to inflict it on the rest of us.  It's ok for them to be sad - and acknowledging that helps me separate myself from their feelings - and it's ok for me to take a break from feeling their sad when I need to.

I am pondering all of this. I think there's a lot in it that's fairly accurate, and that I can learn from. The first paragraph rings *very* true to me/of me. And the 3rd, with ideas on shifting my own perspective about their responses/emotions/feelings/way they are made is very helpful, if not very easy. Thank you. 

[TheReader]

1 hour ago, catz said:

I will say I had PPD and likely struggled with low grade depression and anxiety prior and until the PPD was I able to recognize my prior mood patterns.  People can and do have mental health struggles without understanding them or knowing it.  So I wouldn't toss that off as an option.  I personally am much better able to regulate my own moods and being self aware how it affects others since going through treatment for PPD.  I know you can't force anyone into following up on this.   But acknowledging and calling out emotionally unhealthy patterns and stepping away might at least be helpful to you.  

I admit I have struggled with anxiety and mood and having my husband home full time for the last 2 1/2 years has not been great.  I am starting to resume some social events, he does go back to the office sometimes now and it has definitely helped.  I feel like when we're all together all the time we have nothing to talk about at the end of the day.  It WAS depressing.  

definitely not ignoring depression/anxiety/mood disorder/etc as an option or possibility.  Definitely not. Convincing them of that.....not so much. 

[Indigo Blue]

19 minutes ago, TheReader said:

I didn't see it, but I'd welcome it via PM if you don't mind sharing.  You never know what side of things might spark something, and even if it was opposite or different from what's been said so far, who knows. 

If it ends up way off base, I won't be annoyed with you for having shared it. 

Oh, what I was saying seemed to fit better with someone you aren’t living with, and was more to helping yourself as opposed to helping the other person. 
 

I was explaining how, before visits to my person A house, I eat lunch in my car in the park. When I leave person A house, I go back to same park and take a walk before going home. I got that advice here in a thread I started. It offsets the negative emotions and makes the day, overall, quite, quite nice. Works so well. 
 

And I also said that, IMO, unfortunately, even though other people’s emotions are their responsibility, their negative emotions DO affect us. It just takes a lot of mental effort to block that. And if person A is toxic, that’s really a different thing and the plan needs further action than just “taking a break” from said person.

[Clemsondana]

I read somewhere that the chronically upbeat are just as mood disordered as the chronically negative, but we don't mind it.  At one time I would have said that your situation describes me and spouse.  I'm known for being...usually cheerful, and if not, at least wry and snarky, which my family finds more pleasant, than just negative.  I do think it's important to sort out reflexive negativity and reflexive arguing.  I actually think that spouse was more reflexive than actually negative, if that makes sense.  And I think that can be retrained fairly easily.  What seemed to help, strangely, was having a child whose ADHD is strongly coupled with automatic negative thoughts and constant arguing and spouse seeing the toll that me hearing that all day, every day, was having.  I think it made spouse more aware and willing to have a brief 'people at work are making me nuts' rant without it always turning into a negative mood.  Because I have no problem sympathizing with frustation, but am more of a 'that stinks...can we fix it? If not, let's move on because dwelling on it fixes nothing' person.  I've also said that if you need to be negative, you can do it while I go soak in the tub.  I can't need to hear it.  I've also done some reading for a class that I teach, and it talks about how we, to some extent, program our moods and thought patterns by what we choose to dwell on - we're actually strengthening those neural connections every time we remember something.  That resonated with both of us - how do we want to train our brains to be?  

I have said that I much prefer to be the upbeat bright side person - it's not that I don't notice or feel truly sad events, but I don't think that every annoyance deserves that amount of power over my mood.  And, if I think that i'll 'laugh about it in hindsight' then I try to get to that point as quickly as possible.  But, I've also discussed that it's not reasonable for me to be expected to be upbeat if multiple people in my house are negative - even at their worst, the family wants me to keep upbeat energy - and pointing out that it's not really possible to drag everybody kicking and screaming into being positive.  I think it's hard, since we don't really know another way to be besides what we are.  My automatic negative thought kid...I can't even fathom what they are thinking sometimes.  I have to remind myself that they are truly not seeing anything the way that I am.  I sometimes find it wearying, and sometimes am thankful when I can pull off bringing some positivity to the family.  

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, sassenach said:

I believe it's possible for a negative person to *learn* a more positive mindset, but no, I don't think it's possible for anyone to *teach* positivity. Change is an inside job. 

It's a hard balance, because it's actually possible to COMMUNICATE that something is important to you, and that can motivate change, but you can't actually be trying to change someone. It's almost paradoxical.