Give me your best arguments either for or against

[Not_a_Number]

I think, ultimately, this is Pandora’s box. I hope the majority of you are correct that it won’t create lots of new problems, because we sure as heck won’t be able to criminalize it again without really painful repercussions.

I dislike large-scale social experiments in general except in emergencies or cases with real moral clarity. We’ll see soon enough. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I dislike large-scale social experiments in general except in emergencies or cases with real moral clarity. We’ll see soon enough. 

 

Well, the original large-scale social experiment was Prohibition. That did not work out well. Banning marijuana was an explicitly racist act of prohibition, another large-scale social experiment, and it has gone horribly right! by which I mean it's caused a lot of irreparable harm to poor and minority communities and also made big bucks for the prison industrial complex.

As for the argument others are making about smelling marijuana everywhere - well, maybe I smell it more than I did? It's not like I've been keeping a detailed journal since childhood.

But you know what? I bet that even if I'm smelling marijuana more now than I used to, I'm still smelling tobacco a heck of a lot less than I did when I was a kid, even if we take my mom's smoking out of the equation.

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think, ultimately, this is Pandora’s box. I hope the majority of you are correct that it won’t create lots of new problems, because we sure as heck won’t be able to criminalize it again without really painful repercussions.

I dislike large-scale social experiments in general except in emergencies or cases with real moral clarity. We’ll see soon enough. 

We already have states where it’s been legal for 10 years. I think we’re past the initial stages of the social experiment already.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

Well, the original large-scale social experiment was Prohibition. That did not work out well. Banning marijuana was an explicitly racist act of prohibition, another large-scale social experiment, and it has gone horribly right! by which I mean it's caused a lot of irreparable harm to poor and minority communities and also made big bucks for the prison industrial complex.

As for the argument others are making about smelling marijuana everywhere - well, maybe I smell it more than I did? It's not like I've been keeping a detailed journal since childhood.

But you know what? I bet that even if I'm smelling marijuana more now than I used to, I'm still smelling tobacco a heck of a lot less than I did when I was a kid, even if we take my mom's smoking out of the equation.

DH was just reading about Prohibition and the fact that it actually decreased alcohol consumption… these things aren’t necessarily as black and white as one makes it out to be.

DH also says that there’s evidence that scaling up marijuana production results in a stronger drug.

I haven’t checked these myself, but these wouldn’t surprise me.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Frances said:

We already have states where it’s been legal for 10 years. I think we’re past the initial stages of the social experiment already.

Which states? Any studies about use out of them?

[YaelAldrich]

2 hours ago, JazzyMom said:

Thank you.

It has been a total nightmare.  I can only hope and pray that my younger children, having witnessed this up close, will want nothing to do with marijuana.

My oldest just is a habitual user and my kids do not want to follow in his footsteps at all (although the younger two like alcohol but not in a habitual way). Neither my husband nor I use weed, alcohol, or tobacco -we're high on life! 🙃

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Which states? Any studies about use out of them?

CO and WA. I don’t know about studies because I haven’t looked for them. 

[Heartstrings]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think, ultimately, this is Pandora’s box. I hope the majority of you are correct that it won’t create lots of new problems, because we sure as heck won’t be able to criminalize it again without really painful repercussions.

I dislike large-scale social experiments in general except in emergencies or cases with real moral clarity. We’ll see soon enough. 

I think it could be argued that the prohibition on marijuana was a large scale social experiment in itself.  One that has many terrible consequences on our society for not a lot of good in exchange.  Which is how we look at the Prohibition of Alcohol.  

Ultimately it’s a situation where it’s impossible to balance the scales. Marijuana bring illegal us not a neutral situation. People are imprisoned, families broken up, increased policing and societal distrust from that, tax dollars going to a for profit prison system and profits to cartels are some of the costs.  Would making it legal change the equation? Absolutely.  Will some people be hurt? Yes, of course. Will people be inconvenienced by smells and ugly shops? Sure.  But how to quantify that?  
 

We did do it once though, with alcohol.  We decided that the cost of prohibition wasn’t worth it and that we were willing to trade that for the costs of ending it.  Alcohol legalization has had costs but we’ve decided they were less on the whole than prohibition, even though that does mean there are personal tragedies.  
 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Not_a_Number]

Any large change is an unpredictable experiment 🤷‍♀️. We’re trading something we know for something we don’t.

As I said, I have a mix of anxiety and inchoate dislike of the consequences I’ve seen. I am also sure I can’t predict all of the consequences and that no one else can.

I don’t have much to add.

[Tanaqui]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Any large change is an unpredictable experiment 🤷‍♀️. We’re trading something we know for something we don’t.

As I said, I have a mix of anxiety and inchoate dislike of the consequences I’ve seen. I am also sure I can’t predict all of the consequences and that no one else can.

I don’t have much to add.

 

But we do know what society was like before marijuana was banned. It wasn't actually all that long ago. And we have some idea of what life is like in places where marijuana is legal, or at least decriminalized for personal use.

Also, listen, the "social experiment" argument is... there's no nice way to put this, so I'm just going to say it. The people most likely to use that argument are arguing in bad faith. They apply that to everything they don't like, and have done so in various forms forever. They change the terms, but the core argument is always the same - change is to be feared BECAUSE it is change, but the way they like things is the way it always has been and ought to be (even if it actually isn't the way it has been). The civil rights movement? "OMG social experiment!" Feminism? "OMG social experiment!"

Literally just this week I bumped into somebody calling the existence of black people in Amazon's vision of Middle Earth a social experiment, because something something elves aren't black.

You can call anything a social experiment, basically, and you probably shouldn't. (Homeschooling? Check. Mass education? Double check. Elections? Oh, gosh yeah.)

Edited October 25, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

 

But we do know what society was like before marijuana was banned. It wasn't actually all that long ago. And we have some idea of what life is like in places where marijuana is legal, or at least decriminalized for personal use.

Also, listen, the "social experiment" argument is... there's no nice way to put this, so I'm just going to say it. The people most likely to use that argument are arguing in bad faith. They apply that to everything they don't like, and have done so in various forms forever. They change the terms, but the core argument is always the same - change is to be feared BECAUSE it is change, but the way they like things is the way it always has been and ought to be (even if it actually isn't the way it has been). The civil rights movement? "OMG SOCIAL EXPERIMENT!" Feminism? "OMG SOCIAL EXPERIMENT!"

Literally just this week I bumped into somebody calling the existence of black people in Amazon's vision of Middle Earth a social experiment, because something something elves aren't black.

You can call anything a social experiment, basically, and you probably shouldn't.

That’s what it seems like to me, and that’s what I’ll call it. 🤷‍♀️ I’m not responsible for jerks who choose the same words I do. 

[Not_a_Number]

I would also bet people money that legalizing marijuana won't do a thing to the number of Black people in prison. If it's not marijuana, it'll be something else. The problem is systemic racism, not pot. 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would also bet people money that legalizing marijuana won't do a thing to the number of Black people in prison. If it's not marijuana, it'll be something else. The problem is systemic racism, not pot. 

It’s entirely possible that this is true, sadly.  

[Frances]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would also bet people money that legalizing marijuana won't do a thing to the number of Black people in prison. If it's not marijuana, it'll be something else. The problem is systemic racism, not pot. 

Well we’ve also decriminalized possession of small amounts of all illegal drugs in my state, so maybe that will ultimately make a difference.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2021/11/03/oregons-drug-decriminalization-may-spread-despite-unclear-results

Edited October 25, 2022 by Frances

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

It’s entirely possible that this is true, sadly.  

That's my very strong suspicion. When I use Google, I'm seeing some evidence for it, too. 

So then we're making a very big change for reasons that probably won't come to fruition and whose outcome we really don't fully understand.

And the world was VERY different last time marijuana was illegal. I have no expectation of the world coming back to 1970 in this way or any other. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Does pot need to be illegal to deal with the smell issue?  It seems like trying to work to change your state or locality laws to not allowing any form of smoking in public would be a better way to deal with it.   I’d love an ordance making the shops not so dang garish too while we’re at it.  

No, I don't think it needs to be made illegal to deal with that. I think most people on this thread, even those who are seeing the downsides that have increased since legalization have said they don't think it should be illegal. I was only addressing the smell because a number of people said it hadn't increased by them since legalization (as I think an extension of saying that pot use hadn't increased in their area since legalization) and I'm only saying that it actually is a notable increase in my neck of the woods.

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Which states? Any studies about use out of them?

Yep. I've posted links to some above, and some of those links have links to more studies, and if you do a search, you will find even more studies. Marijuana has become more potent and ERs are seeing a marked increase in patients who are affected by one side effect or another, whether that be psychosis, cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, small children overdosing or traffic accidents. I'm still not saying outlaw, I just don't think we can address these very real issues by ignoring they exist and saying that pot is pretty harmless.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Frances said:

Well we’ve also decriminalized possession of small amounts of all illegal drugs in my state, so maybe that will ultimately make a difference.

As I said, I'd bet money it won't. But again, that's an inchoate feeling that comes as a result of my understanding of humanity and not something I can logically prove. 

I don't necessarily like my fellow humans in aggregate 🤷‍♀️.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Yep. I've posted links to some above, and some of those links have links to more studies, and if you do a search, you will find even more studies. Marijuana has become more potent and ERs are seeing a marked increase in patients who are affected by one side effect or another, whether that be psychosis, cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, small children overdosing or traffic accidents. I'm still not saying outlaw, I just don't think we can address these very real issues by ignoring they exist and saying that pot is pretty harmless.

Ah-ha. Thank you. I've read a bit about that, and as I said, DH was telling me about the potency. 

This also supports my sense that this is a large-scale experiment whose outcome we don't understand ahead of time.

[Corraleno]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As I said, I have a mix of anxiety and inchoate dislike of the consequences I’ve seen.

But what you're not seeing are the consequences of criminalization, since those don't affect you. The thousands of people whose lives and families were destroyed by incarceration for possession of marijuana would argue that those consequences are far worse than people not liking the smell and thinking pot shops are tacky and too numerous.

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would also bet people money that legalizing marijuana won't do a thing to the number of Black people in prison. If it's not marijuana, it'll be something else. The problem is systemic racism, not pot. 

As I posted upthread, police arrest more people for marijuana than all violent crimes combined. I don't doubt for a minute that police will continue to enforce other laws unequally, but at least all those who would or could have been incarcerated for pot will not be incarcerated if it's legal. And there is a strong push to expunge past convictions, which will change the lives of those who were unfairly targeted and incarcerated in the past.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Corraleno said:

But what you're not seeing are the consequences of criminalization, since those don't affect you.

Can't argue with that. I don't feel that acutely. 

 

Just now, Corraleno said:

The thousands of people whose lives and families were destroyed by incarceration for possession of marijuana would argue that those consequences are far worse than people not liking the smell and thinking pot shops are tacky and too numerous.

To be clear, the annoying things I'm currently seeing aren't the things I'm anxious about in the long term. 

 

Just now, Corraleno said:

As I posted upthread, police arrest more people for marijuana than all violent crimes combined. I don't doubt for a minute that police will continue to enforce other laws unequally, but at least all those who would or could have been incarcerated for pot will not be incarcerated if it's legal. And there is a strong push to expunge past convictions, which will change the lives of those who were unfairly targeted and incarcerated in the past.

I just think they'll find something else. I doubt this tweak will do enough. 

I could, of course, be wrong. Just a sense. 

[SKL]

What I learned from people who used to use MJ is that it has long term very negative effects on a person's life and future.

I don't see anything good about changing the illegal status of recreational MJ.

[Heartstrings]

I think the policing issue is a complex one.  If cops stop worrying about marijuana maybe they’ll spend their time better.  The clearance rates for pretty much every other crime is simply terrible.  So if we still arrest 10 people but now we’re getting 4 rapists and 6 burglars instead of 9 pot smokers and 1 car thief, I think that’s a good thing.  Right now cops #1 job seems to be pot enforcement.  
 

As for potency, I think that’s where legal and regulated differs from simply decriminalizing personal use.   Potency can be regulated.  We regulate the potency of alcohol.  The potency is high now because it’s not regulated.  Just like alcohol concentrations could be too high when alcohol wasn’t regulated because it was simply outlawed.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the policing issue is a complex one.  If cops stop worrying about marijuana maybe they’ll spend their time better.  The clearance rates for pretty much every other crime is simply terrible.  So if we still arrest 10 people but now we’re getting 4 rapists and 6 burglars instead of 9 pot smokers and 1 car thief, I think that’s a good thing.  Right now cops #1 job seems to be pot enforcement.  

Maybe. I guess my sense is that this won't happen. But I'm repeating myself, I think. 

 

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

As for potency, I think that’s where legal and regulated differs from simply decriminalizing personal use.   Potency can be regulated.  We regulate the potency of alcohol.  The potency is high now because it’s not regulated.  Just like alcohol concentrations could be too high when alcohol wasn’t regulated because it was simply outlawed.  

Of course, regulating things pushes them underground, doesn't it? Some people will want the more potent stuff now that it exists.  

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

ybe. I guess my sense is that this won't happen. But I'm repeating myself, I think

We’ll, if they can’t arrest for pot they’ll have to figure out something else to arrest for.  I’m not sure what that will be.  I guess jaywalking and loose cigarettes maybe?  Almost every crime I could think of would be a better use of time than marijuana arrests.  Hopefully they’ll fill some of those hours and dollars clearing rape kits.  
 

 

[Heartstrings]

I did find this paper which shows clearance of other crimes went up and stayed up in CO, and went up then back to baseline in WA, after they legalized marijuana.  
 

“Prior to legalization, clearance rates for violent and property crimes were declining in both Colorado and Washington. However, immediately after legal- ization, the slope of the clearance rate trends shifted upward for violent crime in both of the treatment states. Conversely, while there was a jump in the trend line for average violent clearance rate at the point of intervention at the national level, postintervention clearance trends did not shift upward as occurred in the treatment states. This set of findings suggests that right around the time of legalization, clearance rates trends seemed to increase for violent crime in gen- eral for both Colorado and Washington, though no similar shifts are noted for the country as a whole. In terms of property crime clearance rates, there is a sharp increase for both Colorado and Washington after the point of interven- tion, though Colorado’s trend continues upward while Washington’s property crime clearance rates appear to regress back to prelegalization levels. The United States as a whole, however, remained essentially stable during this time period and followed a relatively predictable cyclical pattern of property crime clear- ance rates”.  
 

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1098611118786255

 

[KSera]

30 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

As for potency, I think that’s where legal and regulated differs from simply decriminalizing personal use.   Potency can be regulated.  We regulate the potency of alcohol.  The potency is high now because it’s not regulated.  Just like alcohol concentrations could be too high when alcohol wasn’t regulated because it was simply outlawed.  

I would like to see this.  I think one of the problems that hopefully states that are just now legalizing can address is that among the earlier adopter states, it was legalized before a lot of this other stuff was figured out. You’ve got states where there are no rules about advertising no rules about where they can be located and no regulations on potency. It should be that part of the benefit of legalizing is also regulating some of that stuff. I still hope that states where it’s already legal can go back and do some of that like was done for cigarettes and alcohol.
 

21 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

  Almost every crime I could think of would be a better use of time than marijuana arrests.  Hopefully they’ll fill some of those hours and dollars clearing rape kits.  
 

 

Thanks for the study regarding this that you posted after this post. Interesting. People are in a perpetual uproar here about how the police don’t go after anyone for anything, mostly talking about property crimes which are rampant here and mostly not prosecuted. People will have clear security camera footage of people stealing their catalytic converter or stuff from their garage or whatever, and the police won’t do anything with it. You make a good point that you’d think with all the extra time not prosecuting marijuana cases, they should have time to start doing some of that. We have the same issue here with rape kit backlogs as well. I have no idea what they’re spending most of their time doing, honestly. 

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

I have no idea what they’re spending most of their time doing, honestly

From my brief, non scientific poll of former cops I know, the answer is traffic stuff.  Traffic is huge because they use that to find drugs. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I would like to see this.  I think one of the problems that hopefully states that are just now legalizing can address is that among the earlier adopter states, it was legalized before a lot of this other stuff was figured out. You’ve got states where there are no rules about advertising no rules about where they can be located and no regulations on potency. It should be that part of the benefit of legalizing is also regulating some of that stuff. I still hope that states where it’s already legal can go back and do some of that like was done for cigarettes and alcohol.
 

Thanks for the study regarding this that you posted after this post. Interesting. People are in a perpetual uproar here about how the police don’t go after anyone for anything, mostly talking about property crimes which are rampant here and mostly not prosecuted. People will have clear security camera footage of people stealing their catalytic converter or stuff from their garage or whatever, and the police won’t do anything with it. You make a good point that you’d think with all the extra time not prosecuting marijuana cases, they should have time to start doing some of that. We have the same issue here with rape kit backlogs as well. I have no idea what they’re spending most of their time doing, honestly. 

Writing tickets. Not kidding. It is nearly impossible to get any LEOs in my area to show up to take a report on ANYTHING. We are on our own entirely. Every last one of them is on traffic patrol. It is a great revenue maker for the state. Lots of money, no need to incarcerate, and a state law here allows a high percentage of their fines to go directly back to the police department to fund their salaries directly so they have a huge incentive to spend all day writing tickets. They do still show up at car accidents to help, but otherwise everyone knows you don't call 911 and ask for police for any other reason here. I have a neighbor who is a retired, career army guy. If I had a crisis, a reason to be scared, facing potential violence, he would be my first phone call, not 911.

[Happy2BaMom]

Marijuana has been legal for 10ish years in both WA and CO. I think the results have been somewhat mixed (there’s some evidence the loss of revenue has impacted the drug cartels, but large-scale mj farms are pretty environmentally destructive), there has been relief in reduction of ridiculous prosecutions (anybody remember the ‘3 strikes and you’re out’ legislation that largely just overfilled prisons with minor offenders?) but I do think more people are using who otherwise might not. 
 

It’s hard to tie increases usage just to legalization, tho, because a compounding factor is that we’re a struggling (some might say failing) society. People are stressed, despondent, anxious. They will seek avenues of escape. How much they will seek illegal vs legal is hard to pin down, but I don’t think you can entirely pin increased usage just to legalization. 
 

I lean toward legalization, only because the whole “War on Drugs” thing has become a f*cking joke. And now the cartels are starting to traffic abortion drugs. If there’s money to be made, they will supply it. The whole “illegal / ban” thing doesn’t work (for much of anything) when there is a well established multi-billion dollar underground network already operating in nearly every city/town in America. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Idalou]

13 hours ago, KSera said:

I don't think people should be belittled for suggesting that pot use can have major impacts on some users. The concentration on THC is on average far higher today than it was a couple decades ago. So it's not like it has somehow become more inert. It's safer from a perspective of contamination and there are the medical versions without THC available, and both of those things are very good.

This is just a news article, but there are lots of others similar from doctors in emergency rooms and many studies indicating the same thing. I encourage those who are adamant there is nothing different going on with marijuana use since legaliztion to read this and/or some of those studies: I never saw anything like this

I did not belittle her. She did not say it has major effect on some people. She said having one or two puffs is so much worse than 'drinking moderately' at a party, etc, and that you lose time and the world becomes distorted. That is funny to me. What's moderate? I can have 2 shots and pass out. My spouse can have 2 shots and show no effect. What length is her party? She said an alcohol drinker can generally tell what to expect from their drink, but not a person taking pot. She generalized both alcohol and marijuana, but seemed to favor alcohol. Yes, both  can  devastate, both can be beneficial as a form of stress reducer, or medicinal, or just as a pleasant way to feel. It's a fact that certain groups are prosecuted and treated more harsh than let's say it, white people. I could drive near RIT and see black youth smoking and the cops would go straight to them....while on a Friday night  the bar areas the white college kids hang out at are obviously smoking pot can have police cruise by without stopping. No one here has said people should be allowed to smoke in public settings, or that it's superior to alcohol or better than all actual prescribed drugs, or that it's safe for children.

But I still think some opinions are reminiscent of Reefer Madness. Millions of people use a form of marijuana. Too many lives where ruined due to our form of justice. Corporations know what profits from it are, and what can be once they're able to control sales. Face it, it's here. It's time to decide who, what, when, and where. Hopefully we can do that quicker and better and not let corporations lie and poison the product as they did with cigarettes and market them as the safest,coolest thing we can do,  and make it macho or feminine depending on their brand target

Edited October 25, 2022 by Idalou

[Idalou]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would also bet people money that legalizing marijuana won't do a thing to the number of Black people in prison. If it's not marijuana, it'll be something else. The problem is systemic racism, not pot. 

 A big concern is being deemed a felon for possession. The recent thing that happened did not actually free tons of people from prison, it took away the felony. Getting a felon for smoking a pot cigarette, never being able to vote again. Never. That's a sure fire way to suppress the vote, no matter what color you are. If you think that wasn't something certain people grabbed onto as a simple plan, then I don't know what to say. Systemic racism, but I think pot prosecution is a spoke in that wheel, and it is a fact people of one color are prosecuted more, but nothing shows they are more frequent users.

[pitterpatter]

I don't know what to tell you. That's been my experience as a very inexperienced user. I did not grow up with drugs or alcohol in my household. Nor, did my family hang out with anyone who used either in our presence. My grandfather smoked cigarettes before his heart attack. That's pretty much it.

I live in the rural Midwest. We just got medical dispensaries about a year or so ago. We are still in the voting stages of whether to legalize recreational use. So, yeah, pot stuff is high talk here.

My cannabis use is quite limited. However, the people I've done it with are very skilled. 🤪 And yes, the potency of the stuff they've had over the years varies by the batch. They talk about the quality every time they buy something new. I know for a fact that two of the maybe four times I've done it, it came from a dispensary from out of state. Yup, that stuff was high grade...the mess-you-up kind. I admit, I suck at smoking anything, so my two hits were probably a few more than that. Maybe I did a better job than I thought. 🤷‍♀️ And, no one told me you're supposed to cut a gummy from a dispensary in Colorado into quarters until after I ate the whole thing. So, how many hits IS a full gummy? You tell me. I have no clue. My world absolutely did distort, and I did lose small amounts of time. For me, people become caricatures of themselves and time stutters. It can be enjoyable yet scary at the same time. This has never happened to me with alcohol.

So, laugh at me all you want, but what I said is true of my experience. And, it's probably going to be similar to a lot of newbies' experiences regardless of where they buy it. (How many first timers are going to know that you shouldn't eat a full gummy? Does it say on the box?) There's a definite learning curve to it. Until a couple of weeks ago, I didn't even know there were uppers, downers, and mixed varieties.

I also said that I was on the fence. My life is pretty sucky right now, and I also have chronic migraine. There are days I wish I could run into town and buy some. There are other days I'm very glad I can't. So, I think you can use my experience in arguments that are both for and against legalization. Although, I am definitely for decriminalization of it.

PS - I did feel a teeny bit belittled, but it's all good. I'm a pretty tolerant and good-humored person across the board. And, I can understand arguments from most sides for just about anything. I just wanted to share my experience, that's all.
 

6 hours ago, Idalou said:

I did not belittle her. She did not say it has major effect on some people. She said having one or two puffs is so much worse than 'drinking moderately' at a party, etc, and that you lose time and the world becomes distorted. That is funny to me. What's moderate? I can have 2 shots and pass out. My spouse can have 2 shots and show no effect. What length is her party? She said an alcohol drinker can generally tell what to expect from their drink, but not a person taking pot. She generalized both alcohol and marijuana, but seemed to favor alcohol. Yes, both  can  devastate, both can be beneficial as a form of stress reducer, or medicinal, or just as a pleasant way to feel. It's a fact that certain groups are prosecuted and treated more harsh than let's say it, white people. I could drive near RIT and see black youth smoking and the cops would go straight to them....while on a Friday night  the bar areas the white college kids hang out at are obviously smoking pot can have police cruise by without stopping. No one here has said people should be allowed to smoke in public settings, or that it's superior to alcohol or better than all actual prescribed drugs, or that it's safe for children.

But I still think some opinions are reminiscent of Reefer Madness. Millions of people use a form of marijuana. Too many lives where ruined due to our form of justice. Corporations know what profits from it are, and what can be once they're able to control sales. Face it, it's here. It's time to decide who, what, when, and where. Hopefully we can do that quicker and better and not let corporations lie and poison the product as they did with cigarettes and market them as the safest,coolest thing we can do,  and make it macho or feminine depending on their brand target

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by pitterpatter

[BusyMom5]

My state had a vote for legalizing medical Marijuana,  and I voted for it.  I have family and friends who are using it instead of other pharmaceuticals for serious medical conditions- and thats what I thought about when I voted.  I believe they should have that as an option.  That said,  that hasn't been what I've noticed.  There are pot shops everywhere,  and no regulation at all.  If I wanted to try it, I could not go to my Dr and have him give me any specific type to try- what level, how often, etc.  I'd just ask around and try what was recommended by the person selling it to me.  I'm not even sure my Dr would perscribe it 🤷‍♀️  This isn't what I voted for.  I have been dealing with pain issues and many people suggested I try it!  I didn't. Any advice was just "well, try a bit of this,  then see what happens."  No.  Just- NO.  

I have other concerns,  too.  Many people see it as an herb, not a drug.  Teens especially seem to see it as a better alternative to alcohol.   Its available in edibles and in vapes- very easy to access at any time!  Take it to school, work,  in the car- no one knows!  The messaging feels like MJ from the 60s, but what is being sold is so much more potent!   It is so easy to get, use,  and abuse- scary easy.  The messaging has been so wrong!  

What are the affects on children of being surrounded by users?  How often will kids eat a gummy or a brownie?  We know what pot does to the brain in adults- what does it do to toddlers?  Kids?  Does it pass through to babies in the womb?

Many have posted that no one dies from a MJ overdose, but that is minimizing the long-term affects.  It does build up in your body- it gets in your fats, etc. And you can overdose!  It causes severe mental paranoia and other mental issues, and csn lead to arrest for behavior.   I just had a police officer in a class and he talked about this - its a big problem.   Driving under the influence of MJ, hospitalization due to toxicity levels, severe mental health, etc. 

Its complicated.  I don't support full legalization,  and often wonder if I should have voted the other way on medical.  Its a slippery slope, and I hate those type of arguments,  but its true.  We don't know.  We do not.   

 

[Clarita]

43 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

We know what pot does to the brain in adults- what does it do to toddlers?  Kids?  Does it pass through to babies in the womb?

They have had studies on this. They definitely know you can get secondhand smoke and high from MJ.

https://www.cdc.gov/marijuana/health-effects/teens.html, https://americanaddictioncenters.org/marijuana-rehab/effects-of-marijuana-on-teenage-brain, https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain Giving MJ to your kids is not advised. You can also see Wathe's post above probably any persons under the age of 25 is not advised. 

[Not_a_Number]

12 hours ago, Idalou said:

 A big concern is being deemed a felon for possession. The recent thing that happened did not actually free tons of people from prison, it took away the felony. Getting a felon for smoking a pot cigarette, never being able to vote again. Never. That's a sure fire way to suppress the vote, no matter what color you are. If you think that wasn't something certain people grabbed onto as a simple plan, then I don't know what to say. Systemic racism, but I think pot prosecution is a spoke in that wheel, and it is a fact people of one color are prosecuted more, but nothing shows they are more frequent users.

You are arguing with a straw man. Of course people grabbed on to that. And now they'll grab on to something else. You won't solve this problem like that, and you may create new ones. 

As I keep repeating, I hope you're right and we don't create major new problems. As always, I'll be watching and waiting. I'm always interested in the outcomes of experiments, even if I'd have rather not run them. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[popmom]

Who started this thread? @Quill? I hope that’s right. Thank you. This has been great discussion. I have changed my position on this over the past several years for so many of the reasons already stated. I’m for decriminalizing at a minimum. 
 

Question: does legalization affect corporate policies on drug testing? Do employers still have the option to fire someone who fails a drug test? 

[Frances]

36 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who started this thread? @Quill? I hope that’s right. Thank you. This has been great discussion. I have changed my position on this over the past several years for so many of the reasons already stated. I’m for decriminalizing at a minimum. 
 

Question: does legalization affect corporate policies on drug testing? Do employers still have the option to fire someone who fails a drug test? 

No, legalization has not affected drug testing policies in my state. You can still be fired for failing a drug test. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean people can be high at work, especially those operating vehicles or heavy equipment or working in areas like healthcare or education.

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, Frances said:

No, legalization has not affected drug testing policies in my state. You can still be fired for failing a drug test. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean people can be high at work, especially those operating vehicles or heavy equipment or working in areas like healthcare or education.

Marijuana is detectable for so long though, up to a few weeks.  One could have an edible at home on Friday night and fail a random drug test on Wednesday from it, despite not being high at all.  That hardly seems fair.  You can drink alcohol in the car during your commute and not show it on a test after lunch.  
 

I’m hoping capitalism will work it’s magic and we’ll have better tests at some point.  
 

ETA: I’m seeing some places say marijuana can show up on drug tests for up to 90 days!! 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Heartstrings

[popmom]

13 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Marijuana is detectable for so long though, up to a few weeks.  One could have an edible at home on Friday night and fail a random drug test on Wednesday from it, despite not being high at all.  That hardly seems fair.  You can drink alcohol in the car during your commute and not show it on a test after lunch.  
 

I’m hoping capitalism will work it’s magic and we’ll have better tests at some point.  
 

ETA: I’m seeing some places say marijuana can show up on drug tests for up to 90 days!! 

Yes it can. Pretty crazy. 

. @Frances I hate to hear that those policies aren’t changing. The industry sectors that do the most drug testing employ higher numbers (as a percentage) of minorities. It really isn’t fair in states where it has been legalized. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by popmom

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, popmom said:

Yes it can. @Frances I hate to hear that those policies aren’t changing. The industry sectors that do the most drug testing employ higher numbers (as a percentage) of minorities. It really isn’t fair in states where it has been legalized. 

Most things that get you fired are legal 🤷‍♀️. I see no way to change this except making this a protected category, and I really can't see that happening. 

[popmom]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Most things that get you fired are legal 🤷‍♀️. I see no way to change this except making this a protected category, and I really can't see that happening. 

That’s a faulty analogy in this case. 
 

The solution imo would be to not test for cannabis (in legal states) unless an employee comes to work impaired. They could still randomly test for opioids, benzodiazepines, meth etc. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by popmom

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, popmom said:

That’s a faulty analogy in this case. 

I'm not arguing it's fair, I'm arguing it's not likely to change. 

[popmom]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not arguing it's fair, I'm arguing it's not likely to change. 

I edited to add my additional 2 cents lol

[Frances]

24 minutes ago, popmom said:

Yes it can. Pretty crazy. 

. @Frances I hate to hear that those policies aren’t changing. The industry sectors that do the most drug testing employ higher numbers (as a percentage) of minorities. It really isn’t fair in states where it has been legalized. 

While the law may not have changed that doesn’t mean companies can’t change policies on their own.

https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2020/04/06/pre-employment-drug-screening-policies-are.html

[popmom]

17 minutes ago, Frances said:

While the law may not have changed that doesn’t mean companies can’t change policies on their own.

https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2020/04/06/pre-employment-drug-screening-policies-are.html

Interesting. This is what I was hoping to see. And I wasn’t even thinking about this tight labor market. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by popmom

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

No, legalization has not affected drug testing policies in my state. You can still be fired for failing a drug test. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean people can be high at work, especially those operating vehicles or heavy equipment or working in areas like healthcare or education.

The lack of legalization doesn’t necessarily affect it either. My state and the state dh’s company is based in don’t have legal recreational use, but their employment drug testing doesn’t include cannabis.

And, of course, there are businesses that don’t drug test at all.

Plus many (most?) states that don’t require a reason for termination, so an employer doesn’t necessarily have to drug test except to ease their mind.

[Guest]

@popmom Yes, it was me. Sorry I have sort of abandoned this thread as I have bigger fish to fry with my other post. 
 

I am going through the process for a federal government job and they specifically speak about marijuana. They point out that it is not legal federally even if it is legal in some states. Marijuana use within the past 90 days is one of the screening questions. 

[popmom]

13 hours ago, Quill said:

@popmom Yes, it was me. Sorry I have sort of abandoned this thread as I have bigger fish to fry with my other post. 
 

No apology necessary! I just forgot after reading so far into the thread. 🙂