Railroad Worker Strike US

[Murphy101]

On 11/3/2022 at 9:28 AM, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Update: ballots are supposedly on their way to the workers. Complete ballots must be received by Nov 20 with the decision being announced on Nov 21

 

Reality: There is an obvious divide between the younger and older workers. There have been fights in break rooms and people laying off to avoid working with someone with an opposing viewpoint. The younger guys want to hold out for a strike or a better wage contract. Many of the older guys (those with 10 years or less until retirement) want to vote yes. The problem is the majority of the younger guys state they will quit as soon as the contract is passed; take the money (back pay) and run. They don't really care about working conditions or what will happen 5-10 years down the road. It's the older guys who are concerned with longevity, retirement availability, and work load.
 

If this contract is voted down, the government will step in and make the contract decisions. There will be no union bargaining and no further voting option. The option to strike has also been eliminated; government intervention in September made certain of that. 

I’m the age of the older ones but I’m with the younger people. Strike.

I hate it. It’s just bleeping stupid that they have to strike over this crap.  But so be it if that’s what it takes to make better for ourselves and our kids.  These working conditions should not be possible to allow in our country.  Certainly not for such low return to the workers.

I don’t want the govt taking over either but I don’t think they can. Who the hell are they going to force to the job?  And how are they going to force them?

Strike.

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m the age of the older ones but I’m with the younger people. Strike.

I hate it. It’s just bleeping stupid that they have to strike over this crap.  But so be it if that’s what it takes to make better for ourselves and our kids.  These working conditions should not be possible to allow in our country.  Certainly not for such low return to the workers.

I don’t want the govt taking over either but I don’t think they can. Who the hell are they going to force to the job?  And how are they going to force them?

Strike.

Sadly, knowing our stupid laws, there is likely one on the books where they claim something extremely stupid about national security, life and health or something, and they can force them to work or face jail. Michigan has a law on the books preventing hospital staff from being able to strike. The governor can literally have them locked in the buildings and charged with felonies for refusing to work.

Anyone who thinks the USA is even remotely free is just delusional. I am so sick of hearing about "socialism". Seriously people, we have a feudal system here except the lords of the land have even less responsibility to their peasants than medieval ones had. It is barbaric.

At the height of the offshore, NAFTA mess, Dh's IT company required him to sleep at work. He sometimes had to go three days at a time without coming home so he could take meetings in the wee hours of the morning from India and China and other areas where of course with the time change it was regular working hours, and then he was required to stay and do his own programming work. He worked 90-100 hours a week, salary, no additional paid time off or comp time. Suicides were off the charts. IT workers dropped from heart attacks in their cubicles. It was perfectly legal. Under NAFTA, IT workers were exempted from all fair labor laws. So I have no doubt t we have some horrific law somewhere in the bowels of federal code that allows the government to do anything they want to railroaders. They can probably federalize the rails and conscript them into the army.

[bookbard]

12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

At the height of the offshore, NAFTA mess, Dh's IT company required him to sleep at work. He sometimes had to go three days at a time without coming home so he could take meetings in the wee hours of the morning from India and China and other areas where of course with the time change it was regular working hours, and then he was required to stay and do his own programming work. He worked 90-100 hours a week, salary, no additional paid time off or comp time. Suicides were off the charts. IT workers dropped from heart attacks in their cubicles. It was perfectly legal. Under NAFTA, IT workers were exempted from all fair labor laws.

I am absolutely floored. Requiring that you sleep at work . . . exempted from fair labor laws? That's just slavery.

[Murphy101]

18 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Sadly, knowing our stupid laws, there is likely one on the books where they claim something extremely stupid about national security, life and health or something, and they can force them to work or face jail.

They can refuse to let them strike. But they can’t refuse to let them quit.

Which exactly what we are seeing in medical and teachings areas too.

My pulmonologist sent me a letter saying he is no longer able to keep his office staffed so he is closing.

We already have teacher shortages.

Most of Mississippi can’t even find a dr in half the counties.

Again. The state only has the power to stop a strike if they also have the power to replace the workers. And they flat out don’t have that. It takes more time than people think to learn to do these jobs.  And no one is eager to work in those conditions.

So again. People quit. At this moment there’s no law mandating someone has to take those jobs. 

and jail? Ha. There’s not enough room in the jails for all the murderers. Good luck. 

which is why I say to strike.

And I hear you. I have always said no one has any rights in this country unless they have the money to fight for it in court. And most don’t. 

[Murphy101]

6 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I am absolutely floored. Requiring that you sleep at work . . . exempted from fair labor laws? That's just slavery.

People have no idea how many jobs are exempted from so-called fair labor laws or how much fair labors laws don’t even cover. And again. The law doesn’t help unless they have the money to fight for that right anyways.  People/companies can break the law all day every day as long as no one documents and takes it to court and maybe sorta eventually wins big enough to make just paying the penalties no longer profitable.

[prairiewindmomma]

28 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I am absolutely floored. Requiring that you sleep at work . . . exempted from fair labor laws? That's just slavery.

Dh worked through that time...kept a sleeping bag at work. Many IT companies are like this still. Dh regularly pulls 12 hour days and gets slack messages well into the night, but he can take vacation time if he schedules it far enough in advance. 

In many regards, jobs labeled here as "professional" jobs are worse with re: to working hours and requirements because those jobs aren't paid hourly. It's just expected that the work will be done. 

Big law firms are much the same. You may not roll in until 8-9 am, but you're also not leaving until midnight. It's not just the billable hours requirements, it's also the catchup cycle (working when you're not scheduled in meetings because you need to catch up) and meeting client expectations for communication, etc. There's a reason that mental health and substance abuse are consistent issues for a huge number of attorneys. 

Is this not a thing in your neck of the world? Collective bargaining and governmental laws are the only things that can hold corporations in check. They absolutely will abuse workers however they can.

 

[Heartstrings]

51 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

his not a thing in your neck of the world? Collective bargaining and governmental laws are the only things that can hold corporations in check. They absolutely will abuse workers however they can.

Not enough people understand this. 

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Is this not a thing in your neck of the world? Collective bargaining and governmental laws are the only things that can hold corporations in check. They absolutely will abuse workers however they can.

You  know, I don't know. I do know that fair work is a massive thing in Australia and the government has just passed more rules about it. I also have an ex-brother in law in IT earning squillions who has never, ever had to sleep overnight at work. But I'm no expert, maybe they do and I just haven't heard about it?

I have a nurse friend who had to work really long hours during covid because all the other nurses on his ward had covid. He was hallucinating with exhaustion. But he definitely got paid extra and got extra time off afterwards. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by bookbard

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

They can refuse to let them strike. But they can’t refuse to let them quit.

Which exactly what we are seeing in medical and teachings areas too.

My pulmonologist sent me a letter saying he is no longer able to keep his office staffed so he is closing.

We already have teacher shortages.

Most of Mississippi can’t even find a dr in half the counties.

Again. The state only has the power to stop a strike if they also have the power to replace the workers. And they flat out don’t have that. It takes more time than people think to learn to do these jobs.  And no one is eager to work in those conditions.

So again. People quit. At this moment there’s no law mandating someone has to take those jobs. 

and jail? Ha. There’s not enough room in the jails for all the murderers. Good luck. 

which is why I say to strike.

And I hear you. I have always said no one has any rights in this country unless they have the money to fight for it in court. And most don’t. 

Actually, they can refuse to let them quit. I don't think it is a perpetual thing, a forever thing, but yes, they can absolutely prevent them from quitting for a period of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisconsin.html

And again, it happened here in Michigan when some nurses wanted to quit a Hurley Med, and when I say quit, I mean leave the profession entirely because they were so burned out from the abuse on the job and a judge prevented them from quitting for almost 30 days and forced them to continue working. They can't do this on a scale of tens of thousands. However, as a country we need to have a serious debate on the merits of allowing a legal system to enslave the people for the sake of capitalism. I get that healthcare, especially hospital care, has a major component related to safety and public health. But the thing is, we also have a government who could twist that to make a crap ton of jobs "essential" and prevent abused, exhausted workers from quitting. That is not a good thing!

I am in agreement with you, Murphy. I just wanted to highlight that we are at a precipice when it comes to the imbalance between workers' rights and a political and legal machine so corrupt and narcissistic that we could end staring down a terrifying future. I don't think a lot of people really get that.

[prairiewindmomma]

8 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Actually, they can refuse to let them quit. I don't think it is a perpetual thing, a forever thing, but yes, they can absolutely prevent them from quitting for a period of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisconsin.html

And again, it happened here in Michigan when some nurses wanted to quit a Hurley Med, and when I say quit, I mean leave the profession entirely because they were so burned out from the abuse on the job and a judge prevented them from quitting for almost 30 days and forced them to continue working. They can't do this on a scale of tens of thousands. However, as a country we need to have a serious debate on the merits of allowing a legal system to enslave the people for the sake of capitalism. I get that healthcare, especially hospital care, has a major component related to safety and public health. But the thing is, we also have a government who could twist that to make a crap ton of jobs "essential" and prevent abused, exhausted workers from quitting. That is not a good thing!

I am in agreement with you, Murphy. I just wanted to highlight that we are at a precipice when it comes to the imbalance between workers' rights and a political and legal machine so corrupt and narcissistic that we could end staring down a terrifying future. I don't think a lot of people really get that.

This.

[Murphy101]

32 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Actually, they can refuse to let them quit. I don't think it is a perpetual thing, a forever thing, but yes, they can absolutely prevent them from quitting for a period of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisconsin.html

And again, it happened here in Michigan when some nurses wanted to quit a Hurley Med, and when I say quit, I mean leave the profession entirely because they were so burned out from the abuse on the job and a judge prevented them from quitting for almost 30 days and forced them to continue working. They can't do this on a scale of tens of thousands. However, as a country we need to have a serious debate on the merits of allowing a legal system to enslave the people for the sake of capitalism. I get that healthcare, especially hospital care, has a major component related to safety and public health. But the thing is, we also have a government who could twist that to make a crap ton of jobs "essential" and prevent abused, exhausted workers from quitting. That is not a good thing!

I am in agreement with you, Murphy. I just wanted to highlight that we are at a precipice when it comes to the imbalance between workers' rights and a political and legal machine so corrupt and narcissistic that we could end staring down a terrifying future. I don't think a lot of people really get that.

I can’t read the article bc of paywall. (ETA: found it elsewhere.  Nuts  the judge should have never given them an injunction to begin with.  They were “at will” employees even!)

I believe govt can do anything the people let them get away with. 

bottom line is people are going to have to have each other’s back.

neighbors and family and former coworkers are going to have to be willing to carry more for people to fight for everyone’s rights.

I’ll do what I can. I hope others step up as they can too.

What are they going to do? Raid homes of families to drag people to jail for refusing a job? Let’s get that in the 10 o’clock news and instagram reels and see how well it goes over.

I hate this. What dumb things to be on a precipice for. Basic reasonable working conditions and compensation. My generation and my parents generation should have made the world better than this by now.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Murphy101

[Faith-manor]

23 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I can’t read the article bc of paywall. (ETA: found it elsewhere.  Nuts  the judge should have never given them an injunction to begin with.  They were “at will” employees even!)

I believe govt can do anything the people let them get away with. 

bottom line is people are going to have to have each other’s back.

neighbors and family and former coworkers are going to have to be willing to carry more for people to fight for everyone’s rights.

I’ll do what I can. I hope others step up as they can too.

What are they going to do? Raid homes of families to drag people to jail for refusing a job? Let’s get that in the 10 o’clock news and instagram reels and see how well it goes over.

I hate this. What dumb things to be on a precipice for. Basic reasonable working conditions and compensation. My generation and my parents generation should have made the world better than this by now.

Totally 100% agree. In the case of the Hurley Med nurses, they knew which ones were quitting, and they were physically locked into the building for several days. Hospital security was on call to keep them from leaving. On a small scale, refusal to work, for these particular nurses, would have resulted in criminal charges and who know what else. Yes, I too agree it would not have happened on the scale of say, hundreds of people or thousands. They don't have the ability unless they turn out the national guard to haul them all at gun point to military bases.

So yes. I agree. I don't know where all of this is going. I feel like we need not just a railroad strike, but some sort of massive worker strike in order to bring the machine to its knees because on a smaller scale, they can do terrible things to people. When IT tried to organize unions in Michigan, the courts ruled the workers could not do it. I don't even know how that should be a thing. Dh would have joined a union in a heartbeat. Thankfully, he was able to leave that employer for a company with a much more humane approach to employees.

[Corraleno]

@Granny_Weatherwax I wanted to thank you for bringing these issues to our attention, I had no idea how badly railroad workers were treated. I have emailed my Representative and both Senators and asked them to support railroad workers' rights and to use their power to ensure they get a fair deal rather than forcing them to continue working under abusive and appalling conditions. I'm sorry you and your family have been so badly impacted by this.

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Totally 100% agree. In the case of the Hurley Med nurses, they knew which ones were quitting, and they were physically locked into the building for several days. Hospital security was on call to keep them from leaving. On a small scale, refusal to work, for these particular nurses, would have resulted in criminal charges and who know what else.

Whoa.  Just. Really?  W. T. *? How is that not kidnapping or whatever?  Since when does a security guard have the legal ability to keep employees from going home? Did they not call a lawyer? What criminal law would they have broken?  *maybe* patient neglect/abuse but that would be damn hard to prove given that keeping them there under those conditions is just as likely to cause patient care problems.  I’d have loved to have seen that presented to a jury of peers.  And of course at that point nothing between there and hell would convince anyone to apply to work at that place. So good luck hiring anyone to replace them.

[prairiewindmomma]

Just across the border, in Ottawa, Ontario education workers announced they would be striking…so the government passed a law making that illegal and adding $4000 fines (per day!!) for striking.

https://ottawa.citynews.ca/around-ontario/ontario-education-workers-to-go-on-strike-friday-despite-new-law-making-it-illegal-6048176

Edited November 5, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[TechWife]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Just across the border, in Ottawa, Ontario education workers announced they would be striking…so the government passed a law making that illegal and adding $4000 fines (per day!!) for striking.

https://ottawa.citynews.ca/around-ontario/ontario-education-workers-to-go-on-strike-friday-despite-new-law-making-it-illegal-6048176

And the workers are striking anyway. 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/cupe-strike-education-school-ottawa-1.6640457

[Murphy101]

9 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Just across the border, in Ottawa, Ontario education workers announced they would be striking…so the government passed a law making that illegal and adding $4000 fines (per day!!) for striking.

https://ottawa.citynews.ca/around-ontario/ontario-education-workers-to-go-on-strike-friday-despite-new-law-making-it-illegal-6048176

 

9 hours ago, TechWife said:

And the workers are striking anyway. 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/cupe-strike-education-school-ottawa-1.6640457

Well God Bless Canada CUPE Union and their workers.🎉🫰

Bah. Passed legislation bc the union wouldn’t take strike or disruption off the bargaining table. No kidding? That’s the only bargaining chip workers have ever had - hell no they should not ever take the possibility off the table.

[Faith-manor]

On 11/5/2022 at 12:48 AM, Murphy101 said:

Whoa.  Just. Really?  W. T. *? How is that not kidnapping or whatever?  Since when does a security guard have the legal ability to keep employees from going home? Did they not call a lawyer? What criminal law would they have broken?  *maybe* patient neglect/abuse but that would be damn hard to prove given that keeping them there under those conditions is just as likely to cause patient care problems.  I’d have loved to have seen that presented to a jury of peers.  And of course at that point nothing between there and hell would convince anyone to apply to work at that place. So good luck hiring anyone to replace them.

I checked with my friend who worked at the hospital  back when this happened. I said security guards, but I was wrong. It was LEOs. I am very sorry about that! That hospital had some serious security issues back in that time and neighborhood, and LEOs were assigned to the hospital according to her. So there were regular security guards and actual police officers, and it was the officers who prevented them from leaving. Also, this happened a long long time ago. This was pre-internet. Pre-everyone has a cell phone. Many phones in the hospital at the time didn't have a call out feature and were just inter-phone systems. I do believe they did retain lawyers, but no idea at what point that occurred.  If I have time this week, I can find old newspaper letters to the editor. I don't want people to think I am lying. I am most certainly not.

This kind of thing though, where a small group of people are in the fight of their lives for their stories to be heard, for the violations of their rights to be heard, is I think how the system perpetuates control. IF many tens of thousands of people all simultaneously walked off the job, yes, the vast majority cannot be rounded up, prevented from leaving, forcibly compelled to work. But the powers that be can do it to a few, and people are terrified to be in that group of the few, the "examples". The vast majority of workers have families to worry about, and many are pay check to pay check. Most of them will be unemployable after the publicity of that. As with the nurses above, when they were able to quit, they did, and no other hospitals or doctors offices would hire them. They were considered untrustworthy and disloyal by employer standards. Workers fear that and the fear of course keeps them in line. Labor rights issues are going to have to be supported with action by the majority of the people of the U.S. However, most do not give a crap. They care that they are never inconvenienced, they are willing for a lot of unethical treatment of the people who produce, transport, etc. the goods they want to purchase. They want the status quo, and they are willing to turn a blind eye to this or at least I believe that this is so for a large portion of the population. Same with climate change. Same with anything that might mean major adjustments to their lifestyles, major inconveniences and changes to the power structures to achieve.

Panem at Circenses, the peasants of the districts enslaved to support the capitol.

Here is an article about something similar from the LA Times. 

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-01-24/wisconsin-hospital-sued-workers-for-quitting-thedacare. This one isn't behind a pay wall or at least I didn't have any issue. Not the same situation as here or as egregious, and yet, bad enough it should make people really stop to consider how much power some employers want to have over their employees. And I don't really see how "poaching employees" is even a complaint to be heard. Businesses woo employees all the live long day by offering benefits or pay raises or sign on bonuses, whatever to get people to leave where they currently work to come to their company. Every job change my husband as made since taking his first job in IT was not because he was unemployed, but because he wanted to make a change, and another company offered him something better than the one he was with. Give notice. Go to new job. So who cares if hospital y made an offer employees from hospital x couldn't refuse? The bigger issue for management of Theda is WHY do people want to leave our employment? But of course that would require them to confront their labor practices. I am glad the Wisconsin judge ended that, but seriously, we should all be pretty damned concerned that it even happened in the first place. I hope, but doubt, the people of Wisconsin took notice and are hounding their representatives about this. Sadly, this is the state where tenure was ended, where teacher unions were trashed by the governor and legislature so I think worker rights are not a concern there.

I would truly love for this country to "break the backs" of the railroad tycoons and their political allies. I just don't know that this nation is willing to band together and get behind the workers, and it breaks my heart.

[Idalou]

On 11/5/2022 at 11:26 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

Well God Bless Canada CUPE Union and their workers.🎉🫰

Bah. Passed legislation bc the union wouldn’t take strike or disruption off the bargaining table. No kidding? That’s the only bargaining chip workers have ever had - hell no they should not ever take the possibility off the table.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-supreme-court-poised-give-companies-new-power-sue-over-strikes-2022-10-20/

To be decided this coming term. I think their decision is predictable.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Update: voting closes tomorrow 11/20/2022 at 11:59pm.

Here's a link to a story published today:

BNSF engineer shares story of life working for the railroad | wqad.com

It gives a decent explanation of what is going on. The novel information presented is that there could be a possible strike. It won't happen, however, due to Biden's proposal. The workers have already been told (as I shared in a previous post) that the Biden proposal will be put in place if the contract isn't ratified. With three unions already voting "no", things don't look good.

The statement by the BNSF rep stating that workers rarely work a 40 hour week is laughable. My DH hasn't worked fewer than 60 hours a week for months; his average is greater than that. My DH has been working non-stop so he can earn his 30 (it's actually 37) points back so he can have enough points for (hopefully) Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. He is not using points for Thanksgiving as he won't have enough time to earn the points back before Christmas.

Life might just get a bit rough in the next few weeks: for us personally, for our community, and for the nation.

I have to laugh about the part regarding the 3 extra sick days with required doctor's appointment that must be scheduled 30 days in advance.

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Here's an explanation for the Hi-Viz policy. Since this article was written, the workers were given an extra 7 points.

17,000 BNSF union workers could soon be on strike | wqad.com

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

The news articles are beginning to pop up. The fear mongering about the strike bothers me.

I had to laugh at one article's final line "The stores are stocked. We'll still have Christmas."

 

The unions are sending messages telling the workers there will be no strike as Congress is prepared to place in injunction and force them to work. The Presidential contract will be enforced and it is not favorable toward the workers.

Tensions are high.

[Faith-manor]

This is just inhuman. Laughably "the stores are stocked" is just hilarious. Nope. Stores if one cannot get coal for electricity, other fuels that travel by rail, certain foods, paper, wood, minerals, manufacturing components...people are going to feel it in a big way especially on the energy level. 28% of goods in the US are moved by rail (and it should be more like 75% because moving by rail is so much more efficient that it it a much more earth friendly, climate change necessary mitigation) and there is no way this doesn't have a major effect on human life.

I weep. This is human slavery even if there is a "paycheck", serfdom to wealthy, narcissistic overlords, greedmeisters who plague the earth, looting and pillaging and creating disaster at every turn. 

I 100% support a massive rail strike. Unfortunately, the economy will have to be brought to its knees or become close to it in order to create any hope of change. Loss of money or the threat thereof is the only thing that motivates the oligarchs and their political allies because they are so evil money is all they care about.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

As you may know, the contract was voted down. There is a mandatory cooling off period and then they decide if they want to attempt another strike. 

Lots of angst over the narrow vote - 50.87% against. Less than 1%. Workers are questioning each other and the desired outcome. Lots of talk of quitting once the government contract is accepted. Many people are saying they will wait for their back pay and walk away. No one wants to live like this. 

--

I am frustrated most by the division of labor. Those in management have regular work weeks, days off, sick time, etc. and they are voicing dismay with the people who work on the tracks or in the trains. Many of them get pay bonuses for working the holidays and overtime. They can call off when their children are sick, a family member passes away, or they need to visit the dentist. They are not subject to the 37 point system or the insane scheduling practices.

--

In the meantime, it's just Tuesday and my DH has already worked 24 hours and is due to go to work in the next two hours but, as the railroad will tell you, most workers don't pull a 40 hour work week. He's hoping he'll be able to take a mandatory day off for Thursday by hitting the Federal allowable limit.

[Faith-manor]

19 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

As you may know, the contract was voted down. There is a mandatory cooling off period and then they decide if they want to attempt another strike. 

Lots of angst over the narrow vote - 50.87% against. Less than 1%. Workers are questioning each other and the desired outcome. Lots of talk of quitting once the government contract is accepted. Many people are saying they will wait for their back pay and walk away. No one wants to live like this. 

--

I am frustrated most by the division of labor. Those in management have regular work weeks, days off, sick time, etc. and they are voicing dismay with the people who work on the tracks or in the trains. Many of them get pay bonuses for working the holidays and overtime. They can call off when their children are sick, a family member passes away, or they need to visit the dentist. They are not subject to the 37 point system or the insane scheduling practices.

--

In the meantime, it's just Tuesday and my DH has already worked 24 hours and is due to go to work in the next two hours but, as the railroad will tell you, most workers don't pull a 40 hour work week. He's hoping he'll be able to take a mandatory day off for Thursday by hitting the Federal allowable limit.

This makes me so sad. I just can't imagine the suffering, and am totally supportive of a strike. I do want the workers to take whatever back pay they can get if possible and then walk. Maybe if enough walk off the job never to return, and the rest strike, the railroad oligarchs will be forced to cave. It is unconscionable that the federal and state governments refuse to protect workers by passing laws and enforcing them. The human rights abuses in this nation are staggering! There are developing nations ( A term I hate by the way) that have more sane policies than we do. It is barbarian what is being done to railroaders and so many other workers!

[saraha]

I have to admit that until this thread, I had no idea at all about anything related to railroad workers. This all sounds so industrial revolution era! It has been shocking to hear about nurses/medical workers and IT too. I don’t personally know anyone in any of these professions. I see the strikes/walkoffs and their ensuing hardships as a way to better things for everyone. It’s like when I told the kids that inflation stinks but I don’t mind that higher gas prices are making people rethink how they live. (I don’t mean professional drivers, for them I feel really bad that their costs have gone up, I mean people who choose to drive their car into town instead of their big dually because of cost type changes) I would gladly endure a crippled supply chain to relieve people of the conditions they are under and am frankly surprised people keep going into these professions. The work culture is changing and I don’t see younger workers (my kids) being loyal to a slave driver for loyalty sake or “the good of the country “

Thank you so much for exposing me to these stories

ETA: how can people not in these industries help?

Edited November 22, 2022 by saraha

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

The work culture is changing and I don’t see younger workers (my kids) being loyal to a slave driver for loyalty sake or “the good of the country “

Thank you so much for exposing me to these stories

 

I absolutely agree about the older Millenials and GenZ. They.are.done. They have inherited a nightmare, a planet on fire, education industry in the toilet which was a massive disservice to them over which they had zero control, out of control college and trade school costs, overpriced housing market, healthcare system battered beyond recognition and so costly they figure they can never really afford to actually take care of their medical issues, shrinking safety net, two decades of national debt almost entirely due to wars for the enrichment of defense contractors but that produced virtually no moral good and leaving the Middle East even more unstable, labor and civil rights rolled back, and the total and utter disrespect of the previous two generations who talk about them like they are a locust plague on the earth. Putting up labor abuse will not net them any of the "good" that Gen X had, home ownership, financial security, some healthcare access, new car ownership, a reasonable vacation, the ability to afford to have and raise children, you name it. Their situation is hardly worse if they say, "No" and walk off the job. And the interesting thing is, I think that in the next ten years they will have more power than they think they will have because all the boomers will be retired, half of them elderly, Gen X was a smaller generation with the first five years of that generation in a position to retire, and that leaves employers desperate for employees. I think they will be able to set the terms of their employment, and suddenly the oligarchs are going to be sucking their thumbs and really crying the blues about the peasant uprising.

I wonder what the brain drain will do to the nation. All three of my kids in their twenties actually have options to move overseas if they choose. Each one holds a degree or is employed in a field that other countries want, many of these nations being far better choices for financial security, healthcare, and quality of life/happiness, and very much encouraging immigration due to their own low birthrates. How many Millenials and GenZs will leave and without immigration what will that mean for employers in the future? It is going to get pretty darn tight when a huge generation of folks are on Medicaid to get nursing home care covered, and a piddly number of people are paying into the system. I mean, the defense budget could be cut in half, and we would be plenty secure enough, and could take care of folks.

[saraha]

I read an article on msn that the president is trying to get congress to stop a rail strike. Why can’t he tell the railroads they have to concede instead of the workers? I’m not sure I understand how congress can force anything

[ddcrook]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I read an article on msn that the president is trying to get congress to stop a rail strike. Why can’t he tell the railroads they have to concede instead of the workers? I’m not sure I understand how congress can force anything

Why can’t he tell the railroads they have to concede instead of the workers? Over the summer the president appointed a Presidential Emergency Board to investigate the dispute and recommended how it should be resolved. The railroads agreed to the PEB's recommendations, but the unions did not. As a strike approached in September, after some intervention from the executive branch, both the railroads and union leadership agreed to accept the PEB recomendations  with the addition of one paid sick day. So far the railroads have done what the president has asked. 

I’m not sure I understand how congress can force anything. Under the Railway Labor Act of 1926, Congress has the authority to make both sides accept the agreement. 

Sadly, neither the railroads, the unions, the executive branch, or the legislative branch are addressing the workers concerns. 

[Spy Car]

40 minutes ago, ddcrook said:

Sadly, neither the railroads, the unions, the executive branch, or the legislative branch are addressing the workers concerns. 

About an hour ago the House passed two bills. One that would put the negotiated settlement into place and another separate measure that would add 7 days of sick leave to the original package.

It now goes to the Senate.

Bill

[saraha]

4 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

About an hour ago the House passed two bills. One that would put the negotiated settlement into place and another separate measure that would add 7 days of sick leave to the original package.

It now goes to the Senate.

Bill

It’s the sick days that are the main sticking point right? Which is crazy that they don’t already have them

[saraha]

50 minutes ago, ddcrook said:

Sadly, neither the railroads, the unions, the executive branch, or the legislative branch are addressing the workers concerns. 

It is so short sighted of them, if nothing else

[hshibley]

12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

About an hour ago the House passed two bills. One that would put the negotiated settlement into place and another separate measure that would add 7 days of sick leave to the original package.

It now goes to the Senate.

Bill

My understanding is that the separate sick leave bill is unlikely to pass the senate. 
 

The lack of sick leave is appalling given the record profits. 

[saraha]

Wow, the comments on one of the articles are really ugly towards the rail workers. I guess I’m just at a point where I’m willing to hurt some for the betterment of people who do our most important jobs. 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

It’s the sick days that are the main sticking point right? Which is crazy that they don’t already have them

No, that’s not the main sticking point. It’s one small sticking point of many sword-sized sticking issues of poor work environment for RR workers. 

6 minutes ago, saraha said:

Wow, the comments on one of the articles are really ugly towards the rail workers. I guess I’m just at a point where I’m willing to hurt some for the betterment of people who do our most important jobs. 

That’s where I am at.  I love my modern comforts as much as the next person but it’s either suffer some now for every to be better or just suffer a hella lot more until the civilization declines into a hell it can’t crawl out of.

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, hshibley said:

My understanding is that the separate sick leave bill is unlikely to pass the senate. 
 

The lack of sick leave is appalling given the record profits. 

I suppose those who vote against 7 days of sick leave will have to answer to the public for their votes?

Bill

[Ausmumof3]

I read that the rail workers only have one sick day? Is that correct? That seems horrific!

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I suppose those who vote against 7 days of sick leave will have to answer to the public for their votes?

Bill

I win that were true. But the bulk of Americans, I suspect, really do not care as long as their own lives keep humming along. Panem et circenses.

[saraha]

15 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I win that were true. But the bulk of Americans, I suspect, really do not care as long as their own lives keep humming along. Panem et circenses.

And our representatives don’t really listen unless we are saying something they already agree with 

[hshibley]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

Wow, the comments on one of the articles are really ugly towards the rail workers. I guess I’m just at a point where I’m willing to hurt some for the betterment of people who do our most important jobs. 

Do you think those comments are real people or bots and posters from troll farms? I see the same thing and can’t believe these are actual people’s opinions. 

[saraha]

Didn’t occur to me that it might be bots! 

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, hshibley said:

Do you think those comments are real people or bots and posters from troll farms? I see the same thing and can’t believe these are actual people’s opinions. 

If it wasn’t for real people, it’s be a lot easier to get to heaven.

fricken humans is why we can’t have a nice civilizations for long. 

[itsheresomewhere]

Sadly, it probably is not bots making these comments.  Some of the population is so out of touch with how our goods are transported and how our truckers and railroad workers are treated. 

[Faith-manor]

I wish I was shocked at what the House passed. However, I am not. I absolutely loathe politicians in this country.

I fear that the only way forward is for them to quit. They can't strike. But no legislations was passed to lock them in and try to force them to work. No-one should have to lose their employment in order to receive even basic human rights and decency. That said, I think they have to do is because there is no other way forward. If they quit and begin applying for jobs elsewhere, hopefully more decent employers will pick them up. Unable to operate and losing millions a day while congress and the president sh!t bricks because there rich bitch friends are less rich than the day before and the rest of the country goes into a panic because something they wanted or needed isn't coming to their state any time soon is the only way forward.

This is unconscionable. If railroaders in Michigan start demonstrating, I am absolutely planning on joining them.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Yes, the sick leave is only one of many quality of life issues on the table.

For instance, one local worker's grandmother passed away two weeks ago. Bereavement leave policy does not include grandparents. The worker only had 27 of his 37 Hi-Viz points remaining. He wanted 4 days for the funeral (two travel days, two days for the viewing and funeral). When he applied for leave he was denied because the 4 days off in a row would have used all of his points and then some. With Hi-Viz a worker cannot go into a deficit.

He chose to go.  He now has entered into the second Tier of Hi-Viz. The highest number of points he will ever be able to bank is 15; the 37 points are no longer relevant to him. 15 points. A 22 point difference in eligible time off for the rest of his railroad career. Even if he works 365 days straight he can never go over 15 points.

This Hi-Viz policy is ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous. 

Workers are going to work sick every day. Currently, they are sharing upper respiratory infections. DH is ill again. He had COVID a month ago from a van driver who had to go to work ill because of no sick time. All 4 railroaders who rode in that van contracted COVID as did many of their family members. They cannot lay off without using their Hi-Viz points and if they do lay off it is unpaid.

The workers are being told to use their vacation days for illness. Except vacation days are scheduled the previous October. They just concluded the 2023 vacation request cycle. No one, absolutely no one, can divine when they will be sick. Workers have used vacation time for graduations, weddings, anniversary celebrations - things that vacation time should be used for. Not to schedule illnesses.  It's ludicrous.

Workers are going to work sick because they are holding on to their Hi-Viz points in the slight hope they can be home for either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. Those two days require a lot of points - 10 each - so 20 points of the 37. Only so many workers are allowed to lay off each day and people are already talking about laying off at midnight on 12/24. Some are even planning on laying off for the 23rd, 24th, 25th in the hope they get one of them off.

There are no regularly scheduled hours or days off for many of the workers. They just want to be able to have time at home and with their families.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Here's DH's recent work schedule (or lack there of):

Saturday - called at 11pm for a 1am train on Sunday.

Sunday - worked 1am-11 am; 10 hour short day

Supposed to have 12 hours in between shifts but are given a 2 hour call time

Sunday - called at 9pm for an 11pm train

Read that again: two shifts began on the same day.

He worked a full 12 hours that second shift. Had 10 hours off and was called again on Monday night. And again on Tuesday.

46 hours worked in 3 days. 

[Pawz4me]

This seems to be a good explainer about why giving paid sick time to employees is such an issue for the railroads. (NY Mag/Intelligencer)

[kbutton]

@Granny_Weatherwax, I think you said it's worse than it used to be but hasn't ever been great in the time your DH has been in this line of work.

Do you know how long it's been like this? I ask because I knew a railroad engineer or two when I was in high school, but I didn't hear about stuff like this. For context, it was a rural farm community with a lot of jobs that had less than ideal schedules and difficulty getting time off (dairy cows, not factory farms--farmers mostly had their own social circles because it was such a different lifestyle; factory jobs had some really not great features as well), so a railroader wouldn't have complained a whole lot publicly either.

I'm sure 25ish years is enough time for things to have gotten steadily worse, but maybe "better," even then, was still worse than many comparable jobs at the time.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

@Granny_Weatherwax, I think you said it's worse than it used to be but hasn't ever been great in the time your DH has been in this line of work.

Do you know how long it's been like this? I ask because I knew a railroad engineer or two when I was in high school, but I didn't hear about stuff like this. For context, it was a rural farm community with a lot of jobs that had less than ideal schedules and difficulty getting time off (dairy cows, not factory farms--farmers mostly had their own social circles because it was such a different lifestyle; factory jobs had some really not great features as well), so a railroader wouldn't have complained a whole lot publicly either.

I'm sure 25ish years is enough time for things to have gotten steadily worse, but maybe "better," even then, was still worse than many comparable jobs at the time.

My DH has worked for the railroad for 20 years. Over those 20 years things have become progressively worse. The institution of Article 9, PSR and Hi-Viz have devastated scheduling and the ability to take time off.

20 years, 15 years, even 10 years ago, DH could lay off sick or fatigued or take an unpaid day off. It hurt our bottom line but he could recover from an illness, schedule appts, attend a family function, or just stay home to rest. This is a thing of the past. 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

This seems to be a good explainer about why giving paid sick time to employees is such an issue for the railroads. (NY Mag/Intelligencer)

This is actually quite good.