Student Loan Forgiveness

[Soror]

I'm ok with the forgiveness of those that have already paid 20+ years and have already paid back the principal. I'm not ok with blanket forgiveness. 

I'm not ok with any of it without the overhaul of the college system because this is going to be a worsening problem if that is not addressed. We're forgiving debt from a time when college could be had much less expensively while costs for students now are climbing exponentially. Colleges keep getting fancier to lure students in. Bloated administration costs while professors don't get decent pay. Ridiculous fees.

I'm navigating this now with ds. So many variables it is madness.  

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I really do not understand the "it was hard for me, so I want it hard for others" mentality. That people would rather a society where no one chooses to go into social work or scientific research or other fields that don't pay enough to cover their debt, or that people put off having kids or don't have kids (that the economy NEEDS), just so it is "fair" I don't get. 

Of course, I also don't get a society that doesn't want any art history majors or creative writers or poets because those degrees are not a cost effective choice. Having everyone be engineers makes for a boring society. 

Worse, it makes for a society that lacks critical thinking skills when it comes to social problems. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Soror said:

I'm ok with the forgiveness of those that have already paid 20+ years and have already paid back the principal. I'm not ok with blanket forgiveness. 

I'm not ok with any of it without the overhaul of the college system because this is going to be a worsening problem if that is not addressed. We're forgiving debt from a time when college could be had much less expensively while costs for students now are climbing exponentially. Colleges keep getting fancier to lure students in. Bloated administration costs while professors don't get decent pay. Ridiculous fees.

I'm navigating this now with ds. So many variables it is madness.  

I think a system wher eyou make a certain number of years of payments, income dependent, is a good middle ground, actually, for most loans. I do think that those proven to be fraudulent/predatory (these are specific instances with for profit schools and certain banks from my understanding - there have been several lawsuits where the debt was discharged) should be treated differently. 

And of course, if you forgive debts, you need to have a plan going forward. Makes zero sense to forgive past debt and then let it happen all over again - i totally agree and I'm pretty sure anyone who has ever supported loan forgiveness also agrees. 

1 minute ago, Katy said:

Worse, it makes for a society that lacks critical thinking skills when it comes to social problems. 

Sort of a cyclical problem.

[Soror]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 Of course, I also don't get a society that doesn't want any art history majors or creative writers or poets because those degrees are not a cost effective choice. Having everyone be engineers makes for a boring society. 

If I have a kid looking into a profession that makes peanuts I'll be advising them accordingly. The jobs you are looking at don't pay anything- it is not worth it to go off to a private college- you need to be going wherever you can get that particular degree for a reasonable amount. And even then if you aren't going to make enough to make payments on that debt (after accounting for living expenses) you need to consider this as a hobby and find something else to do for a job.

Dh's nephew is a prime example- he went into a very niche career. He got his undergrad free on scholarship (ya!). He could have got his grad very cheaply as well. He was told by the guy at the top of this field- this job is unpredictable and pays sh*t. He decides to then go off to the most expensive school in the country for his grad school for a job that pays crap, even for the biggest guy out there. I don't think he shouldn't have pursued it but I think he was stupid for paying so much for degree for a job that doesn't pay well. At 30, his parents are still paying for part of his living expenses.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Soror said:

If I have a kid looking into a profession that makes peanuts I'll be advising them accordingly. The jobs you are looking at don't pay anything- it is not worth it to go off to a private college- you need to be going wherever you can get that particular degree for a reasonable amount. And even then if you aren't going to make enough to make payments on that debt (after accounting for living expenses) you need to consider this as a hobby and find something else to do for a job.

Dh's nephew is a prime example- he went into a very niche career. He got his undergrad free on scholarship (ya!). He could have got his grad very cheaply as well. He was told by the guy at the top of this field- this job is unpredictable and pays sh*t. He decides to then go off to the most expensive school in the country for his grad school for a job that pays crap, even for the biggest guy out there. I don't think he shouldn't have pursued it but I think he was stupid for paying so much for degree for a job that doesn't pay well. At 30, his parents are still paying for part of his living expenses.

But as a society, we need people with degrees that don't have a good return on investment. 

[SKL]

39 minutes ago, Bambam said:

Question - for those who support the student loan forgiveness, would you support a cash check to those of us who did live extremely frugally and paid off all our student loans? 

The people who didn't eat, or ate just mac-n-cheese/ramen noodles/baby food, or never went out to eat, or lived in cheaper and cheaper places, or put off having children so they could afford to work more to pay their loans they signed for, or never took a vacation or trip, or bought used cars and fixed those themselves, or only shopped garage sales/thrift stores for their clothes, etc? Many made serious sacrifices to be in a position to repay those loans. 

Shouldn't hard work and thrift and self-sacrifice and meeting your own commitments also be rewarded?

TBH those of us who got through it without bankruptcy or worse are living our reward.  The rewards of both (a) an education and (b) learning how to really manage money, albeit the hard way.

(I am not saying I support whatever the forgiveness proposal is ... I haven't had time to look at it, so I don't know.  I do support making education reasonably accessible without destroying quality of life.)

[Soror]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

But as a society, we need people with degrees that don't have a good return on investment. 

I agree --- but not a good return on investment is not what I mean- I mean are you able to pay this off at all. Many degrees can be had much more cheaply. For humanities it is generally easier to even do 2 yrs at a CC and transfer--- as they don't have such specialized sequences. My CC even has a lot of 4 yr degrees through other colleges- things like teaching that doesn't pay much. I 100% agree that college costs need to be reduced but until then any of my kids that are picking low-paying jobs will be advised accordingly. Yes, you may want that college experience but we can't afford it unless you get enough scholarships and you won't be able to pay it off on your salary.

[Carrie12345]

55 minutes ago, Bambam said:

Question - for those who support the student loan forgiveness, would you support a cash check to those of us who did live extremely frugally and paid off all our student loans? 

The people who didn't eat, or ate just mac-n-cheese/ramen noodles/baby food, or never went out to eat, or lived in cheaper and cheaper places, or put off having children so they could afford to work more to pay their loans they signed for, or never took a vacation or trip, or bought used cars and fixed those themselves, or only shopped garage sales/thrift stores for their clothes, etc? Many made serious sacrifices to be in a position to repay those loans. 

Shouldn't hard work and thrift and self-sacrifice and meeting your own commitments also be rewarded?

As a “those of us”, no.  Which is a little ironic, because I can stand by UBI, and an argument could be made for that being similar in principle, lol. But I only support UBI to assuage the “what about Me” arguments.
So, in a “what about Me” dependent argument, no.  Me is fine. I prefer to focus on the people who aren’t fine.

[Bambam]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

As a “those of us”, no.  Which is a little ironic, because I can stand by UBI, and an argument could be made for that being similar in principle, lol. But I only support UBI to assuage the “what about Me” arguments.
So, in a “what about Me” dependent argument, no.  Me is fine. I prefer to focus on the people who aren’t fine.

So in this case, those who did live up to their agreement to repay funds are just okay. 
But the ones who don't or can't aren't okay, and so are rewarded by having some/much/all of their debt erased? 
If this is so, what is the motivation left for those who will go on to incur loans? Would that not be an incentive to not pay back their loans because they were 'forgiven' for others, so probably they will be for those too? 

[Murphy101]

OP- And why shouldn’t she be entitled if her parents went along with it? Why is the problem is that she’s entitled and not that her parents never learned to say no?  So she threw a fit.  It wouldn’t have made me sign any loan papers.  It’s her mistake to learn from if she wouldn’t want to listen to my advice.  Free will sucks like that.

For every story like this - there’s a dozen people who are just desperately trying to better themselves or the next generation.

I do not understand resentment over helping other people, especially when usually helping others benefits us anyways.

It is a social net benefit to have educated people. I will either suffer or benefit in my elderly years from how educated and debt pressured and family friendly policies are for the next generation.  It makes no sense to say well I endured whatever hardship so it’s only fair to perpetuate that hardship on the next generation. Because why? Because then I can get some weird joy out of sticking it to others the way it was me? No thanks.

I think anyone who completes their degree, should be able to do so without debt.  To do otherwise keeps coming around to the fact that only the wealthy can afford to be educated - often in vital areas to society. And we have an odd confluence where vital areas are genuinely suck jobs that many with money wouldn’t want.  Nursing for example. Pilots for example. Areas that we have shortages for a number of reasons but yes, 2 major ones are the cost of the education and that the job sucks for families.

I don’t resent someone getting free groceries even tho I pay a bloody fortune to keep us fed. 

I don’t resent someone qualifying for free medical care even tho I’m about to go in debt so I don’t go blind.

If the only real thing we are going to invest in society is resentment over other people not having it as bad as us - all we will ever get back is resentment.

I think if they complete their degree, they should have their debts forgiven. At graduation. I don’t think it makes sense to wait until after they are done having families to say oh now we will give the break that would have actually helped 20 years ago.

I think schools should have strict guidelines to show they aren’t just putting students in debt knowing those students have little chance of completion  - a major problem with those cheaper options!  They rake in millions on freshmen with often less than 50% making it to completion.  And most of the schools know when kids enter how likely it is they can make it. Low cost schools tend to have very little support framework to help students succeed, especially students who do not have generational experience to tap for guidance.

and frankly, public education needs to be held accountable for much of this. Our nation keeps falling further and further behind in giving basic education that would allow students to manage any higher education.

I’m frustrated by previous generations insisting the problem with younger generations is that they are just entitled and lazy. It’s like the mythological welfare queen of the 80s and 90s.  Even if they exist, they aren’t anywhere near the majority. 

also. I wish people would quit saying “it’s not free! Someone is paying for it! Higher taxes!!”

no kidding? I know that.  Of all the things I will ever complain about my taxes going for, any corporal work of mercy ain’t it. Complain they don’t manage it like I think they should? Maybe.  But I’m absolutely tickled to pay taxes to educate the ignorant so I have a a decent nurse and some quality art therapy at my old folks home some day. I’m thrilled to pay taxes so no one falls asleep wondering if they can go all day without insulin tomorrow because payday is the day after that.  I’d gladly pay taxes for a UBI  too.

I’m not stupid. I know taxes will pay for it. And I’m a hell of a lot happier about it than I was bailing the airlines or auto companies and Wall Street.

I will never resent someone getting the chance to have a better life than me. The entire point of living today is to make the world better for others tomorrow. 

[Carrie12345]

5 minutes ago, Bambam said:

So in this case, those who did live up to their agreement to repay funds are just okay. 
But the ones who don't or can't aren't okay, and so are rewarded by having some/much/all of their debt erased? 
If this is so, what is the motivation left for those who will go on to incur loans? Would that not be an incentive to not pay back their loans because they were 'forgiven' for others, so probably they will be for those too? 

I paid my entire grocery bill this month.

I have no need to receive the equivalent of whatever other people got in their food stamps this month.

I am also not a better person than those who needed the help to meet a basic need.

If you are in need of assistance these days, I encourage you to look into what programs may be available in your area, and to use them. Not as a reward, but as an aspect of civil society and your importance in the community.

It is that simple to care.

[shawthorne44]

36 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I really do not understand the "it was hard for me, so I want it hard for others" mentality. That people would rather a society where no one chooses to go into social work or scientific research or other fields that don't pay enough to cover their debt

It isn't that people want others to have it hard.   But the ants of the world resent being expected to share our food with the grasshoppers of the world who partied away the summer.   

There are the programs where people have their college education paid off if they teach where others don't want to.    If there is a public need for college-educated people and not enough people to fill vacancies then something like that could be used.   Or, higher pay, or even saying only an associates is required.   There are a ton jobs out there that don't really require a college degree, but they do because they can because of the glut of people with degrees.  

The core problem is that a degree costs multiples of what it should.     Why does it cost that much?    Because of all the free-flowing money coming in.   Have you ever seen a chart with federal aid and college cost?  It is amazing how closely those track.  Schools can say 100% needs met, so people go in thinking that they don't need to care about the cost.  But then after they fall in love with that school, they learn that it is loans.  Schools are spending money like a drunken sailor with someone else's Amex card.  That is a bit unfair to sailors but I can't think of a better comparison.    After many years I went back to get a Masters at the same place as my BS.    Undergrad. prices were 5X what it had been and that *after* adjusted for inflation.  Where did the extra money go?    Nothing that improved the education.     The landscaping was like a botanical garden, whereas before they struggled to even grow grass in wide areas.   The Admin offices were quite posh.   Buildings were the same.  Class size was the same.  

 

[ktgrok]

16 minutes ago, Bambam said:

So in this case, those who did live up to their agreement to repay funds are just okay. 
But the ones who don't or can't aren't okay, and so are rewarded by having some/much/all of their debt erased? 
If this is so, what is the motivation left for those who will go on to incur loans? Would that not be an incentive to not pay back their loans because they were 'forgiven' for others, so probably they will be for those too? 

We would also change the system so those people don't need loans. that's been said many times in this thread - the same people who are for debt forgiveness are also for debt free college in general. 

9 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

OP- And why shouldn’t she be entitled if her parents went along with it? Why is the problem is that she’s entitled and not that her parents never learned to say no?  So she threw a fit.  It wouldn’t have made me sign any loan papers.  It’s her mistake to learn from if she wouldn’t want to listen to my advice.  Free will sucks like that.

For every story like this - there’s a dozen people who are just desperately trying to better themselves or the next generation.

I do not understand resentment over helping other people, especially when usually helping others benefits us anyways.

It is a social net benefit to have educated people. I will either suffer or benefit in my elderly years from how educated and debt pressured and family friendly policies are for the next generation.  It makes no sense to say well I endured whatever hardship so it’s only fair to perpetuate that hardship on the next generation. Because why? Because then I can get some weird joy out of sticking it to others the way it was me? No thanks.

I think anyone who completes their degree, should be able to do so without debt.  To do otherwise keeps coming around to the fact that only the wealthy can afford to be educated - often in vital areas to society. And we have an odd confluence where vital areas are genuinely suck jobs that many with money wouldn’t want.  Nursing for example. Pilots for example. Areas that we have shortages for a number of reasons but yes, 2 major ones are the cost of the education and that the job sucks for families.

I don’t resent someone getting free groceries even tho I pay a bloody fortune to keep us fed. 

I don’t resent someone qualifying for free medical care even tho I’m about to go in debt so I don’t go blind.

If the only real thing we are going to invest in society is resentment over other people not having it as bad as us - all we will ever get back is resentment.

I think if they complete their degree, they should have their debts forgiven. At graduation. I don’t think it makes sense to wait until after they are done having families to say oh now we will give the break that would have actually helped 20 years ago.

I think schools should have strict guidelines to show they aren’t just putting students in debt knowing those students have little chance of completion  - a major problem with those cheaper options!  They rake in millions on freshmen with often less than 50% making it to completion.  And most of the schools know when kids enter how likely it is they can make it. Low cost schools tend to have very little support framework to help students succeed, especially students who do not have generational experience to tap for guidance.

and frankly, public education needs to be held accountable for much of this. Our nation keeps falling further and further behind in giving basic education that would allow students to manage any higher education.

I’m frustrated by previous generations insisting the problem with younger generations is that they are just entitled and lazy. It’s like the mythological welfare queen of the 80s and 90s.  Even if they exist, they aren’t anywhere near the majority. 

also. I wish people would quit saying “it’s not free! Someone is paying for it! Higher taxes!!”

no kidding? I know that.  Of all the things I will ever complain about my taxes going for, any corporal work of mercy ain’t it. Complain they don’t manage it like I think they should? Maybe.  But I’m absolutely tickled to pay taxes to educate the ignorant so I have a a decent nurse and some quality art therapy at my old folks home some day. I’m thrilled to pay taxes so no one falls asleep wondering if they can go all day without insulin tomorrow because payday is the day after that.  I’d gladly pay taxes for a UBI  too.

I’m not stupid. I know taxes will pay for it. And I’m a hell of a lot happier about it than I was bailing the airlines or auto companies and Wall Street.

I will never resent someone getting the chance to have a better life than me. The entire point of living today is to make the world better for others tomorrow. 

There are times I want to nominate you for president, this is one of those times. Thank you. Your faith shines through this post - one filled with common sense and the basics of the gospel. 

Can I quote the below elsewhere? 

"Of all the things I will ever complain about my taxes going for, any corporal work of mercy ain’t it. Complain they don’t manage it like I think they should? Maybe.  But I’m absolutely tickled to pay taxes to educate the ignorant so I have a a decent nurse and some quality art therapy at my old folks home some day. I’m thrilled to pay taxes so no one falls asleep wondering if they can go all day without insulin tomorrow because payday is the day after that."

3 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

It isn't that people want others to have it hard.   But the ants of the world resent being expected to share our food with the grasshoppers of the world who partied away the summer.   

What about those that didn't party, but also worked? What level of partying is the cut off to be worthy of help?

[Pawz4me]

As I posted earlier, I don't support forgiving student loan principal, but I could get behind wiping out interest. And the implication that people who got through college debt free were hard working, salt of the earth people and those who have/had loans were partying, living large and wasting money is bugging me. I know lots of people who have/had student debt, and none of them are irresponsible people.

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Soror said:

I agree --- but not a good return on investment is not what I mean- I mean are you able to pay this off at all. Many degrees can be had much more cheaply. For humanities it is generally easier to even do 2 yrs at a CC and transfer--- as they don't have such specialized sequences. My CC even has a lot of 4 yr degrees through other colleges- things like teaching that doesn't pay much. I 100% agree that college costs need to be reduced but until then any of my kids that are picking low-paying jobs will be advised accordingly. Yes, you may want that college experience but we can't afford it unless you get enough scholarships and you won't be able to pay it off on your salary.

That isn't true here. The humanities in my state do have very specific specialized sequences, and it is designed that way by universities to make it very hard to transfer between them, and from community college. We have whole swaths of community colleges for which freshman college writing, English Literature, etc. will be considered nothing but electives in the major instead of prerequisites to upper level work thus setting the student back, and adding expense because the student will spend money to pay to take the same class under a slightly different title. But I also cannot totally blame the universities because we have a LOT of crappy community colleges that are really nothing more than high school for grown ups. The coursework and level of instruction isn't equal. But we do have a few good CC's with high expectations and appropriate scope and sequence, and those courses still do not transfer as more than electives, and that I do have a problem with.

Our CC's also lie to students and parents all.the.time. Glaring directly at Bluewater Middle College who keeps telling their "Mechatronics" students that they will be able to transfer to uni and only have two years of coursework left for a bachelor's in electrical engineering except that none of their courses are certified as prerequisites to an EE degree which is difficult and way more in depth. So at the universities, AC and DC electronics courses are 3 credit classes, one semester of AC and one of DC, six credits total. At Bluewater, it is one combined course of 3 credits. Why? Because a mechatronics degree is a repairman trade degree. Nothing wrong with that and jobs are available. The level of knowledge needed isn't the same as for the EE who actually designs the circuitry. But, you can't just NOT cover the other stuff and still certify someone as an engineer. So, the student is surprised to find out they have to take AC and DC all over again, and at a deeper, more intense level, and cannot progress onto anything else in the degree until they do.

The thing is, it is the same with their Humanities courses. Student get an associate's degree, end up with 50 credits of electives, and still have four years of school ahead in order to get a bachelor's degree. Some of that is by design of the universities to not be able to fill their freshman classes because everyone went the cheaper route of CC, but it is also very much on the shoulders of some the CC's who have low expectations, and scope and sequence of curriculum that is not much more than more high school, and have policies that instructors can't fail anyone for any reason, and have to dumb it down so everyone is successful at CC. It is high school 2.0 in many cases.

The CC closest to us is considered "good". Except that I have personally verified their freshman music theory does not get in the ballpark of covering everything that Theory 1 is supposed to covered. A couple of state universities used to accept Theory 1 for transfer from them, but then all the transfers were failing because they had never been taught approximately half the content of a true level 1 course. It should be called a pre-level course or music theory appreciation or note speller class or something. I have tutored students personally who attempted theory 2 at the state university, and was appalled at what passed for theory 1 at this CC. There was no way these students could pass theory 2. None. And of course it meant retaking Theory 1 and getting out of sequence. This CC and several others are very representative of the dumbing down of content. It is the same in their foreign language coursework, and social science courses like intro to psychology. Only a handful of courses pass muster.

My middle son graduated from WMU with his bachelor's degree in Anthropology/Archaeology and minors in History and Classical Studies. There is very, very little WMU accepts from CC as prerequisites for those departments. 

Other states definitely do better because the regulate the content, scope, and sequence of courses, and standardize course titles and descriptions so basic classes are relatively the same from institution to institution, and then require transfer agreements. In those states, that can work very well to drive the cost of a four year degree down. They also regulate satellite campuses so graduating from one of them is the same as graduating from the flagship. This is vital. But we don't have it so commuting to a satellite campus in order to save dorms and meal plans backfires because the quality of instruction is often much lower at the extension campuses. Employers know it. So where there is state and national oversight for the degrees plus board exams, engineering and medical degrees, the programs are sound, and there is no employer discrimination against the graduate. But in other fields, employers do discriminate.

There is a desperate need for these things to have more oversight and regulation. But that makes voters and politicians squawk. We need more continuity between states which requires federal oversight, and everyone gets upset about suggesting that. So many students do not have "a cheaper path" to a four year degree all dependent on their state of residence at the time they graduate college, something they have no control over. Believe me, looking at what UAH has to offer, I seriously wish we had moved to Huntsville before any of our boys entered college. They would have had good educations at a fraction of what it cost us here in Michigan. But even with scholarships, calculating out of state tuition, adding on travel expenses, it wasn't cheaper than the higher price of Michigan uni. 

So that is something to consider. If anyone here has a few years until their eldest is ready to apply to college, could you move to a state with better CC's, guaranteed one for one transfer agreements on prerequisites, and lower in state tuition costs for high quality public colleges? Of course, if the cost of living is higher, that may not work. However, it might be worth checking into.

[skimomma]

31 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

OP- And why shouldn’t she be entitled if her parents went along with it? Why is the problem is that she’s entitled and not that her parents never learned to say no?  So she threw a fit.  It wouldn’t have made me sign any loan papers.  It’s her mistake to learn from if she wouldn’t want to listen to my advice.  Free will sucks like that.

 

OP here.  I think you are mistaking another poster for me.  Just trying to set the record straight......

Knowing that helping other people is the right thing to do can co-exist with feeling resentful.  It's human nature.  Unfortunately, the people with the most power know this and use it to their advantage.  Which is why I am seeking help in understanding more about it....to move from being resentful.

[fairfarmhand]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That isn't true here. The humanities in my state do have very specific specialized sequences, and it is designed that way by universities to make it very hard to transfer between them, and from community college. We have whole swaths of community colleges for which freshman college writing, English Literature, etc. will be considered nothing but electives in the major instead of prerequisites to upper level work thus setting the student back, and adding expense because the student will spend money to pay to take the same class under a slightly different title. But I also cannot totally blame the universities because we have a LOT of crappy community colleges that are really nothing more than high school for grown ups. The coursework and level of instruction isn't equal. But we do have a few good CC's with high expectations and appropriate scope and sequence, and those courses still do not transfer as more than electives, and that I do have a problem with.

Our CC's also lie to students and parents all.the.time. Glaring directly at Bluewater Middle College who keeps telling their "Mechatronics" students that they will be able to transfer to uni and only have two years of coursework left for a bachelor's in electrical engineering except that none of their courses are certified as prerequisites to an EE degree which is difficult and way more in depth. So at the universities, AC and DC electronics courses are 3 credit classes, one semester of AC and one of DC, six credits total. At Bluewater, it is one combined course of 3 credits. Why? Because a mechatronics degree is a repairman trade degree. Nothing wrong with that and jobs are available. The level of knowledge needed isn't the same as for the EE who actually designs the circuitry. But, you can't just NOT cover the other stuff and still certify someone as an engineer. So, the student is surprised to find out they have to take AC and DC all over again, and at a deeper, more intense level, and cannot progress onto anything else in the degree until they do.

The thing is, it is the same with their Humanities courses. Student get an associate's degree, end up with 50 credits of electives, and still have four years of school ahead in order to get a bachelor's degree. Some of that is by design of the universities to not be able to fill their freshman classes because everyone went the cheaper route of CC, but it is also very much on the shoulders of some the CC's who have low expectations, and scope and sequence of curriculum that is not much more than more high school, and have policies that instructors can't fail anyone for any reason, and have to dumb it down so everyone is successful at CC. It is high school 2.0 in many cases.

The CC closest to us is considered "good". Except that I have personally verified their freshman music theory does not get in the ballpark of covering everything that Theory 1 is supposed to covered. A couple of state universities used to accept Theory 1 for transfer from them, but then all the transfers were failing because they had never been taught approximately half the content of a true level 1 course. It should be called a pre-level course or music theory appreciation or note speller class or something. I have tutored students personally who attempted theory 2 at the state university, and was appalled at what passed for theory 1 at this CC. There was no way these students could pass theory 2. None. And of course it meant retaking Theory 1 and getting out of sequence. This CC and several others are very representative of the dumbing down of content. It is the same in their foreign language coursework, and social science courses like intro to psychology. Only a handful of courses pass muster.

My middle son graduated from WMU with his bachelor's degree in Anthropology/Archaeology and minors in History and Classical Studies. There is very, very little WMU accepts from CC as prerequisites for those departments. 

Other states definitely do better because the regulate the content, scope, and sequence of courses, and standardize course titles and descriptions so basic classes are relatively the same from institution to institution, and then require transfer agreements. In those states, that can work very well to drive the cost of a four year degree down. They also regulate satellite campuses so graduating from one of them is the same as graduating from the flagship. This is vital. But we don't have it so commuting to a satellite campus in order to save dorms and meal plans backfires because the quality of instruction is often much lower at the extension campuses. Employers know it. So where there is state and national oversight for the degrees plus board exams, engineering and medical degrees, the programs are sound, and there is no employer discrimination against the graduate. But in other fields, employers do discriminate.

There is a desperate need for these things to have more oversight and regulation. But that makes voters and politicians squawk. We need more continuity between states which requires federal oversight, and everyone gets upset about suggesting that. So many students do not have "a cheaper path" to a four year degree all dependent on their state of residence at the time they graduate college, something they have no control over. Believe me, looking at what UAH has to offer, I seriously wish we had moved to Huntsville before any of our boys entered college. They would have had good educations at a fraction of what it cost us here in Michigan. But even with scholarships, calculating out of state tuition, adding on travel expenses, it wasn't cheaper than the higher price of Michigan uni. 

So that is something to consider. If anyone here has a few years until their eldest is ready to apply to college, could you move to a state with better CC's, guaranteed one for one transfer agreements on prerequisites, and lower in state tuition costs for high quality public colleges? Of course, if the cost of living is higher, that may not work. However, it might be worth checking into.

wow.

Here in TN it's not like that at all. If a school (community college) is a Tennessee Board of Regents school, your credits will transfer and apply to your degree. 

Here we have some good educational funding options for college. TN promise is a 2 year scholarship program for all high school graduates. No minimum ACT. The neat thing bout TN promise is that they have seminars that each student is required to take covering everything students need to know for college, mentorships, and volunteer requirements. It's a full ride for community colleges. Then we have the HOPE scholarship which pays for 4 yrs of schooling for A-B students. 

If I'm not mistaken, Georgia has similar programs. There may be other states too. These programs are lottery funded.

Michigan sounds terrible.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

wow.

Here in TN it's not like that at all. If a school (community college) is a Tennessee Board of Regents school, your credits will transfer and apply to your degree. 

Here we have some good educational funding options for college. TN promise is a 2 year scholarship program for all high school graduates. No minimum ACT. The neat thing bout TN promise is that they have seminars that each student is required to take covering everything students need to know for college, mentorships, and volunteer requirements. It's a full ride for community colleges. Then we have the HOPE scholarship which pays for 4 yrs of schooling for A-B students. 

If I'm not mistaken, Georgia has similar programs. There may be other states too. These programs are lottery funded.

Michigan sounds terrible.

It is and getting worse. We have one of the most corrupt, most inept State Boards of Education ever. We vote for trustees for all the main public universities, but honestly, these people run for these positions for ALL the wrong reasons, and are always tippy top earning cultural elitists. Sigh.

I do know we are not alone in this. There are other states who have similar messes.

[Soror]

21 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That isn't true here. The humanities in my state do have very specific specialized sequences, and it is designed that way by universities to make it very hard to transfer between them, and from community college. We have whole swaths of community colleges for which freshman college writing, English Literature, etc. will be considered nothing but electives in the major instead of prerequisites to upper level work thus setting the student back, and adding expense because the student will spend money to pay to take the same class under a slightly different title. But I also cannot totally blame the universities because we have a LOT of crappy community colleges that are really nothing more than high school for grown ups. The coursework and level of instruction isn't equal. But we do have a few good CC's with high expectations and appropriate scope and sequence, and those courses still do not transfer as more than electives, and that I do have a problem with.

Our CC's also lie to students and parents all.the.time. Glaring directly at Bluewater Middle College who keeps telling their "Mechatronics" students that they will be able to transfer to uni and only have two years of coursework left for a bachelor's in electrical engineering except that none of their courses are certified as prerequisites to an EE degree which is difficult and way more in depth. -------

There is a desperate need for these things to have more oversight and regulation. But that makes voters and politicians squawk. We need more continuity between states which requires federal oversight, and everyone gets upset about suggesting that. So many students do not have "a cheaper path" to a four year degree all dependent on their state of residence at the time they graduate college, something they have no control over. Believe me, looking at what UAH has to offer, I seriously wish we had moved to Huntsville before any of our boys entered college. They would have had good educations at a fraction of what it cost us here in Michigan. But even with scholarships, calculating out of state tuition, adding on travel expenses, it wasn't cheaper than the higher price of Michigan uni. 

Another way this is complicated is that it varies so much by state and even degree. WE have free two years at a CC or Tech school if you meet minimum requirements (attendance, volunteer (done as an elective during school), minimal gpa- like a C average) and there are core 42 hours that are guaranteed to transfer to any other state school. The degree my oldest daughter is considering now looks like she'll be able to do 2 yrs locally and transfer with 2-2.5 yrs left. But she's on track to gain enough in scholarships it might be about even to go straight to the 4 yr college (we'll have to see when she gets closer).

But I have a son looking at a tech degree. The degree that is his first choice has technical specialty classes that start the very first semester and none of that sequence is available at the CC. So, ya I get that. We just visited the Tech College, which he was so excited about. And would be free tuition BUT same thing here they skirted around me when I asked about transfer agreements. When I came home and looked up all the courses individually it would not be worth it. As they lock you into their sequence and only a semester might transfer and then you haven't started the sequence for the major. They do very well for those that only want to do 2 yrs and for some of those fields that is worth it. Not all kids want/need to do 4 yrs. But for transferring (at least in the field we were looking it wasn't worth it). Now, the bio med department said they were working on a 2+2 agreement with another university but ds isn't interested in that. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Soror

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

We would also change the system so those people don't need loans. that's been said many times in this thread - the same people who are for debt forgiveness are also for debt free college in general.

yes. By all means, remodeling the system and how it pays out is not adverse to debt free degrees. 

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

There are times I want to nominate you for president, this is one of those times. Thank you. Your faith shines through this post - one filled with common sense and the basics of the gospel. 

Can I quote the below elsewhere? 

"Of all the things I will ever complain about my taxes going for, any corporal work of mercy ain’t it. Complain they don’t manage it like I think they should? Maybe.  But I’m absolutely tickled to pay taxes to educate the ignorant so I have a a decent nurse and some quality art therapy at my old folks home some day. I’m thrilled to pay taxes so no one falls asleep wondering if they can go all day without insulin tomorrow because payday is the day after that."

☺️ Aw. Shucks. You could nominate me, but I’d never take it.  Sounds terrifying! Sure you can quote me. 

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

What about those that didn't party, but also worked? What level of partying is the cut off to be worthy of help?

Right? It keeps coming around to how dare poor people seek any joy or self determination in life. Why should only the poor have to take on the duty of fixing the social wrongs via various means of indentured work to get their education? Why should only the kids from lower incomes have to complete the same education as someone from a well off family but only kids from poor families have to also work in a ghetto school for 5 years afterwards? Why shouldn’t it be a requirement that all graduates complete X number of years at a reduced pay in service for their education?  Such policies smack of Scrooge saying, “are there no poor houses?” The problem is not that lower income people or young people are too entitled or lazy to use those things. Or even that having a policy of working at a reduced rate for a number of years to pay back the social debt is even a bad idea as a whole.  It’s that they rightly recognize it for the uncharitable “help” it really is. Same as Dickens did. It perpetuates inequality and hardship under a veil of self righteous do-gooderism by elites.

So sure. I think it would be great if all medical and education and science graduates had to work 2-4 years in underserved areas after graduation.  That’s equality. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Murphy101

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Bambam said:

So in this case, those who did live up to their agreement to repay funds are just okay. 
But the ones who don't or can't aren't okay, and so are rewarded by having some/much/all of their debt erased? 
If this is so, what is the motivation left for those who will go on to incur loans? Would that not be an incentive to not pay back their loans because they were 'forgiven' for others, so probably they will be for those too? 

Yeah, the thing is, you don't want to put people in a better-than-average position as a reward for avoiding the work they committed to.  Some relief so they can keep on keeping on, sure.  A total clean slate?  No, not unless it can be shown that they were actually defrauded into signing on the line in the first place.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Soror said:

Another way this is complicated is that it varies so much by state and even degree. WE have free two years at a CC or Tech school if you meet minimum requirements and there are core 42 hours that are guaranteed to transfer to any other state school. The degree my oldest daughter is considering now looks like she'll be able to do 2 yrs locally and transfer with 2-2.5 yrs left. But she's on track to gain enough in scholarships it might be about even to go straight to the 4 yr college (we'll have to see when she gets closer).

But I have a son looking at a tech degree. The degree that is his first choice has technical specialty classes that start the very first semester and none of that sequence is available at the CC. So, ya I get that. We just visited the Tech College, which he was so excited about. And would be free tuition BUT same thing here they skirted around me when I asked about transfer agreements. When I came home and looked up all the courses individually it would not be worth it. As they lock you into their sequence and only a semester might transfer and then you haven't started the sequence for the major. They do very well for those that only want to do 2 yrs and for some of those fields that is worth it. Not all kids want/need to do 4 yrs. But for transferring (at least in the field we were looking it wasn't worth it). Now, the bio med department said they were working on a 2+2 agreement with another university but ds isn't interested in that. 

It is crazy! I consider it all to be a mine field.

And it isn't like trades are cheap. Here most of them are offered through the CC's, and they are very expensive. Then there is state licensing, also expensive. The cost of the two year diesel largest engine program locally is $20,000 plus $3000 for the tools, and no scholarships, limited financial aid. So students take out tools. Some find work, many don't because these are money making programs for the CC's so they tend to turn out an absolute glut of graduates, more than Michigan needs. Sure, we have a lot of tractors and semi's here. But many employers prefer the extra NOT cheap graduates of the BS program in automotive with concentration in diesel large engine, and oops, there again, a big difference in sequence for the licensing program vs. the four year.

The one program through our utility company, Electrical Journeyman, is super lucrative. It is also crazy hard, and often the kids who thought "who needs algebra and physics" when they were in high school want to get into it because the pay is so great. On average, only 5% of the students who try to test into the program actually make it. The idea that if college isn't for you, go trades, no worries, a lot cheaper, big money, is kind of a lie too. Too many programs turning out way too many grads and not enough employers who offer good pay and benefits. And they are often difficult to test into, and then waiting lists for the coursework.

We need a total overhaul of higher education.

 

[Soror]

28 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

It is crazy! I consider it all to be a mine field.

And it isn't like trades are cheap. Here most of them are offered through the CC's, and they are very expensive. Then there is state licensing, also expensive. The cost of the two year diesel largest engine program locally is $20,000 plus $3000 for the tools, and no scholarships, limited financial aid. So students take out tools. Some find work, many don't because these are money making programs for the CC's so they tend to turn out an absolute glut of graduates, more than Michigan needs. Sure, we have a lot of tractors and semi's here. But many employers prefer the extra NOT cheap graduates of the BS program in automotive with concentration in diesel large engine, and oops, there again, a big difference in sequence for the licensing program vs. the four year.

The one program through our utility company, Electrical Journeyman, is super lucrative. It is also crazy hard, and often the kids who thought "who needs algebra and physics" when they were in high school want to get into it because the pay is so great. On average, only 5% of the students who try to test into the program actually make it. The idea that if college isn't for you, go trades, no worries, a lot cheaper, big money, is kind of a lie too. Too many programs turning out way too many grads and not enough employers who offer good pay and benefits. And they are often difficult to test into, and then waiting lists for the coursework.

We need a total overhaul of higher education.

 

The trade/tech school is free tuition here. There are some small fees you have to pay and living expenses but the area where they are located have pretty cheap accommodations ($350-$600 a month- which wouldn't be that much of a loan over 2 yrs). Graduation rates were 70%+ with 90%+ job placement rates. 

I think we need to improve tech schools where they are lacking. Not all jobs need 4 yrs of schooling. Not all kids can do higher math and science and not all jobs need them. Dh is in a job now that he doesn't need a degree for but has to have one if he wants to advance. He is doing the exact same job he will after after his degree but will make $20-$40k more per year. Who does it serve that his job requires a 4 yr degree expect for lining the pockets of colleges? IDK He's jumping through the hoops but neither of us agree with the push that so many jobs require 4 yr degrees when an apprenticeship or trade training would work just as well. But as that is the way the game is played we will be strongly encouraging our kids to go on to 4 yr degrees, unless their particular interest doesn't require it. The field ds was interested in he could start out and make decent money with the 2 yr degree but would be like dh limited in advancement, so the aim is a 4 yr degree.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Soror

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

We would also change the system so those people don't need loans. that's been said many times in this thread - the same people who are for debt forgiveness are also for debt free college in general. 

 

In my mind debt forgiveness and debt-free college are really two separate issues.  The first is really about whether contracts that adults enter into will be enforced by the government or not.  If the government tells one party that, once they have fulfilled their end of the agreement (providing dollars) the other party does not have to sign the contract they signed and fulfill their end of the agreement (paying back the money according the the contract stipulations), it has major impact on the willingness of parties to enter into contracts in the future.  And it brings into question the role of government--is the role to enforce contracts or to overrule contracts because they are unpopular with some?  (Of course, if contracts were illegal contracts to begin with then the legal system can be there to deal with that).

As far as all of those who keep saying that college should be available debt-free, I have not seen any proposal about HOW it would be paid for.  It is easy to say it "should be free" but that is not a solution, it is simply a wish. 

[fairfarmhand]

I know there are very good scholarship opportunities for some states that are funded by lotteries. Are there other sources of funding that other states have found practical?

[ktgrok]

57 minutes ago, Soror said:

Another way this is complicated is that it varies so much by state and even degree. WE have free two years at a CC or Tech school if you meet minimum requirements (attendance, volunteer (done as an elective during school), minimal gpa- like a C average) and there are core 42 hours that are guaranteed to transfer to any other state school. The degree my oldest daughter is considering now looks like she'll be able to do 2 yrs locally and transfer with 2-2.5 yrs left. But she's on track to gain enough in scholarships it might be about even to go straight to the 4 yr college (we'll have to see when she gets closer).

But I have a son looking at a tech degree. The degree that is his first choice has technical specialty classes that start the very first semester and none of that sequence is available at the CC. So, ya I get that. We just visited the Tech College, which he was so excited about. And would be free tuition BUT same thing here they skirted around me when I asked about transfer agreements. When I came home and looked up all the courses individually it would not be worth it. As they lock you into their sequence and only a semester might transfer and then you haven't started the sequence for the major. They do very well for those that only want to do 2 yrs and for some of those fields that is worth it. Not all kids want/need to do 4 yrs. But for transferring (at least in the field we were looking it wasn't worth it). Now, the bio med department said they were working on a 2+2 agreement with another university but ds isn't interested in that. 

 

17 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

In my mind debt forgiveness and debt-free college are really two separate issues.  The first is really about whether contracts that adults enter into will be enforced by the government or not.  If the government tells one party that, once they have fulfilled their end of the agreement (providing dollars) the other party does not have to sign the contract they signed and fulfill their end of the agreement (paying back the money according the the contract stipulations), it has major impact on the willingness of parties to enter into contracts in the future.  And it brings into question the role of government--is the role to enforce contracts or to overrule contracts because they are unpopular with some?  (Of course, if contracts were illegal contracts to begin with then the legal system can be there to deal with that).

As far as all of those who keep saying that college should be available debt-free, I have not seen any proposal about HOW it would be paid for.  It is easy to say it "should be free" but that is not a solution, it is simply a wish. 

Again, the same people want both - so no, it wouldn't effect new people entering those contracts for education debt because there wouldn't be educational debt. 

As for proposals, if you haven't seen them I don't know what to say. Lots of people on the left have discussed this - Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren off the top of my head. Some entire states have done it, I think? Not sure on that one. 

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

...

What about those that didn't party, but also worked? What level of partying is the cut off to be worthy of help?

None.   Why should someone who went to a cheaper school and worked 30+ hours a week during school and two to three jobs during summer including a literal sweat-shop be forced to pay for someone else's college?   Why should someone that didn't go to college and works a low-level job at Target be forced to pay for someone else's college?   Because that is what college loan forgiveness means.   

[ktgrok]

Just now, shawthorne44 said:

None.   Why should someone who went to a cheaper school and worked 30+ hours a week during school and two to three jobs during summer including a literal sweat-shop be forced to pay for someone else's college?   Why should someone that didn't go to college and works a low-level job at Target be forced to pay for someone else's college?   Because that is what college loan forgiveness means.   

Ok, so a form people fill out with how many meals they ate, if they ever bought a single starbucks coffee, how much data their cell phone used, etc? If you ate beans and rice exclusively, all debt repaid, but if you had pizza nce a week we deduct a certain amount, etc?

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

Again, the same people want both - so no, it wouldn't effect new people entering those contracts for education debt because there wouldn't be educational debt. 

As for proposals, if you haven't seen them I don't know what to say. Lots of people on the left have discussed this - Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren off the top of my head. Some entire states have done it, I think? Not sure on that one. 

My point was not about educational debt going forward, it has to do with ALL contracts.  If people are not confident that legally entered into contracts will be enforceable--whether they are rental contracts, loan contracts, employment contracts--that has an impact on people's comfort level of entering into contracts.  

I have not seen any proposal of HOW this will be paid for.  I have seen proposals that the government SHOULD pay for it.   The government continuing to borrow and spend is not a solution of how to pay for higher education.  

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

OP here.  I think you are mistaking another poster for me.  Just trying to set the record straight......

Knowing that helping other people is the right thing to do can co-exist with feeling resentful.  It's human nature.  Unfortunately, the people with the most power know this and use it to their advantage.  Which is why I am seeking help in understanding more about it....to move from being resentful.

Apologies for my error. 

Most people don’t move from resentment by reasoned convincing that our resentment is unfounded.  There’s always plenty of reasons to be resentful.

We move from resentment for self by acting in gratitude towards others. 

[skimomma]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Apologies for my error. 

Most people don’t move from resentment by reasoned convincing that our resentment is unfounded.  There’s always plenty of reasons to be resentful.

We move from resentment for self by acting in gratitude towards others. 

Hmmmm.  I think better understanding an issue by hearing people's firsthand experiences and perspectives has helped me to feel much less resentful about this issue than I did two days ago. 

[Amy in NH]

On 3/30/2022 at 11:41 AM, skimomma said:

We decided the best course of action was to continue to live like college students and devote all of our extra income to paying off the loans.  We continued to drive our ancient cars, did not vacation, lived in a cheap apartment furnished with hand-me-down furniture, delayed starting a family, etc..... and paid them all off within two years.  Then started to live like proper working adults.  I know many MANY people who make far more than we do that are still paying on their student loans (25+ years later)

I would love to understand this better and feel less resentful about it.  

I guess there are some questions in my mind:

1. Do you think young people, like your daughter, should be limited in their educational opportunities based on finances, or should they be encouraged to reach for the best educational opportunities they can attain without regard for their family's wealth?

2. Do you really want people who come after you to suffer those stresses you endured?

3. Can you turn your bitterness over your own lack of opportunities into compassion for the future generations of students (your children and grandchildren included)?

4. Do you think the high cost of education and resulting 25 years of student loans stifles the economy (ie. people's ability to attend post-secondary school to begin with, start a family, or become a homeowner), and if so is that a price you think society should bear because you struggled in the past?

Personally, I feel like education should be free for everyone who sincerely wants to learn - so free education for anyone who continues to show growth as a student.  And I think it was wrong that you were forced to pay for your education - I'm sorry that happened to you.  And the past is behind us, so we should find some acceptance, let go, and move on.  And continuing to do wrong things as a society because we were wronged does no-one any good while preventing growth.

Research in many fields has concluded that society benefits on all measures when citizens are more well-educated.  It is my educated opinion that free education (which amounts to canceling current student loans and not creating new ones - gotta start somewhere) is the best way to accomplish this.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Amy in NH
fix typo

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

It is and getting worse. We have one of the most corrupt, most inept State Boards of Education ever. We vote for trustees for all the main public universities, but honestly, these people run for these positions for ALL the wrong reasons, and are always tippy top earning cultural elitists. Sigh.

I do know we are not alone in this. There are other states who have similar messes.

It’s the same in NY. CCs have transfer agreements with SUNY schools. What they don’t tell you is that not everything fits into a tidy little slot, so you can easily transfer in your gen Ed’s and still have a whole bunch of “elective credits” that don’t count for your degree.  I graduated from a CC in 2001. Started at a state school who said yep we take all your credits. They did, and then eliminated my major at the end of the year due to budget cuts and didn’t take most of my CC credits towards the new major I’d have moved into. Transferred to a small religious college who did have a transfer agreement with the CC and wound up spending an extra year at $28,000 because while I had tons of elective credits and had all my general education requirements waived due to the transfer agreement with the CC, most of them didn’t count for my double major.  I’d have been better off ignoring all the advice my parents and I thought was smart, because the CC saved me no time or money, and we didn’t know that most scholarships at four year schools go to freshmen, not transfer students. 
 

Higher Ed is a racket, and that’s coming from someone who really values college degrees.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Faith-manor]

39 minutes ago, Soror said:

The trade/tech school is free tuition here. There are some small fees you have to pay and living expenses but the area where they are located have pretty cheap accommodations ($350-$600 a month- which wouldn't be that much of a loan over 2 yrs). Graduation rates were 70%+ with 90%+ job placement rates. 

I think we need to improve tech schools where they are lacking. Not all jobs need 4 yrs of schooling. Not all kids can do higher math and science and not all jobs need them. Dh is in a job now that he doesn't need a degree for but has to have one if he wants to advance. He is doing the exact same job he will after after his degree but will make $20-$40k more per year. Who does it serve that his job requires a 4 yr degree expect for lining the pockets of colleges? IDK He's jumping through the hoops but neither of us agree with the push that so many jobs require 4 yr degrees when an apprenticeship or trade training would work just as well. But as that is the way the game is played we will be strongly encouraging our kids to go on to 4 yr degrees, unless their particular interest doesn't require it. The field ds was interested in he could start out and make decent money with the 2 yr degree but would be like dh limited in advancement, so the aim is a 4 yr degree.

Agreed. We pay this stupid Hunger Games because we don't have a choice if our kids want to get ahead.

To some degree, businesses and corporations are the gate keepers. They decide what hoops they expect in order to get pay raises and promotions and a lot of it is bunk. On the other hand, a long time ago they figured out that a high school diploma, for many students, isn't worth the paper it is printed on so they upped the ante. The states should have fixed K-12 education, not let it rot and pushed the problem off to college.

My dad had a position open one time for two years at his business, one that he was willing back in 1998 to pay $25 an hour full time, and help with buying a health insurance policy. He had to set the minimum requirements as an associate's degree because the high school diploma graduates who applied couldn't read and comprehend simple user manuals. They were rudimentary functionally literate, but not 10th-12th grade literate. They also could not perform even the simplest bare bones algebraic solve for X problems nor understood the definitions of obtuse and acute angles, or a right triangle is 45 degrees and why that might be important to know when running a duct in a house or any number of other things. With the reading so poor, he despaired of even attempting to teach the math. Nothing about the job required an actual associate's degree.

This was profoundly frustrating for a guy who graduated high school with a 3.0 from a tracked high school in 1962 who had entered the engineering track in 8th grade, exited high school, aced the entrance exam for the missile technology program for the Air Force, and was successful, on a high school diploma. My mom did the home economics and fashion design track, and had offers from Buttermilk and Simplicity way back then for good money straight out of high school. But the school dismantled the education program in the early seventies because the state wanted the "one sizes fits all, trash bag" education to prevail. Old school teachers rebelled, and kept trying their darndest, and until the mid-80's, PS education in Michigan was still decent. However, when so many from that era retired and were replaced, and the state absolutely demanded standards slide, and teacher disrespect, aggressive parents began prevailing, the whole education system fell off the cliff.

Without a top to bottom overhaul, this generation faces the likelihood of needing a degree to do anything at all, and that is just really sad, and compounds the problem of student debt and generations of people at the mercy of the system unable to get ahead not to mention paying to take remedial coursework, and struggling with freshman classes.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Soror said:

 

But I have a son looking at a tech degree. The degree that is his first choice has technical specialty classes that start the very first semester and none of that sequence is available at the CC. So, ya I get that. We just visited the Tech College, which he was so excited about. And would be free tuition BUT same thing here they skirted around me when I asked about transfer agreements. When I came home and looked up all the courses individually it would not be worth it. As they lock you into their sequence and only a semester might transfer and then you haven't started the sequence for the major. 

My DH's situation was that this private school was the only one in driving distance that had the degree he wanted - and he's perfectly suited for his job, it really was the best degree for him. And moving wasn't an option due to not having the financing to find a place to live (he was living on a couch) and wanting to help out with his 10 yrs younger brother, since their mom was a mentally ill basket case and there was no dad or other relatives in the picture. And none of their credits could transfer to any other school, even when the local university did start up a similar degree program. 

And of course, he can acknowledge the frustration that other people can now get this degree at a cheaper school, with more respectable degrees, but it isn't like he wants everyone else to have the crappy experience he did either. He's glad our kids will have better options. (and for grad school did Western Governors online, and his company did tuition reimbursement - he'd learned his lesson by then, but he was older and wiser.)

[ktgrok]

For those claiming no one ever said how free education would be funded, this was the first article I found. I am sure there are better explanations with more detail - but yes, people have proposed ways to fund it. You can disagree with how they would fund it, but it is not true that plans have not been spelled out. (specifically related to debt free college, not student loans) https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/21/sen-bernie-sanders-introduces-bill-to-make-college-free-and-have-wall-st-pay-for-it.html

In addition, the bill proposes the government pay for free college by imposing a financial transaction tax on Wall Street, as in previous plans put forth by Sanders and others.

The Tax on Wall Street Speculation Act would levy a 0.5% tax on stock trades, a 0.1% fee on bond trades and a 0.005% fee on derivative transactions. That would raise up to $2.4 trillion over the next decade, according to a summary of the bill.

[Bootsie]

If it is not prudent for an individual to borrow to receive a college education, is it prudent for the government to borrow so that the person can receive a college education?  Given the massive government deficit and national debt, that is the choice set.  

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Hmmmm.  I think better understanding an issue by hearing people's firsthand experiences and perspectives has helped me to feel much less resentful about this issue than I did two days ago. 

👍glad to hear it. 

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

For those claiming no one ever said how free education would be funded, this was the first article I found. I am sure there are better explanations with more detail - but yes, people have proposed ways to fund it. You can disagree with how they would fund it, but it is not true that plans have not been spelled out. (specifically related to debt free college, not student loans) https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/21/sen-bernie-sanders-introduces-bill-to-make-college-free-and-have-wall-st-pay-for-it.html

In addition, the bill proposes the government pay for free college by imposing a financial transaction tax on Wall Street, as in previous plans put forth by Sanders and others.

The Tax on Wall Street Speculation Act would levy a 0.5% tax on stock trades, a 0.1% fee on bond trades and a 0.005% fee on derivative transactions. That would raise up to $2.4 trillion over the next decade, according to a summary of the bill.

The federal deficit last year was over $3 trillion dollars.   The US government is already spending over $3 trillion more than it brings in per year.  So, this proposal would not even provide 1/10 of covering that deficit. 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

The federal deficit last year was over $3 trillion dollars.   The US government is already spending over $3 trillion more than it brings in per year.  So, this proposal would not even provide 1/10 of covering that deficit. 

it isn't designed to cover the entire budget deficit? 

[Pawz4me]

I'm certainly no economist and don't pretend to be. So perhaps my comment is from a place of ignorance. But if this is a reliable source then the cost of debt free college should be about $75  billion the first year. The U.S. military spending in 2020 was $766 billion. So cut military spending by less than 10 percent and pay for college. Shoot, maybe just make the DoD complete an audit and we'd find more than enough waste to cover the cost.

(Please note I'm not anti-military. But the amount we spend on bombs and  bullets is obscene. I think the future of our country would be better served by spending some of that money in other ways.)

[catz]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm certainly no economist and don't pretend to be. So perhaps my comment is from a place of ignorance. But if this is a reliable source then the cost of debt free college should be about $75  billion the first year. The U.S. military spending in 2020 was $766 billion. So cut military spending by less than 10 percent and pay for college. Shoot, maybe just make the DoD complete an audit and we'd find more than enough waste to cover the cost.

(Please note I'm not anti-military. But the amount we spend on bombs and  bullets is obscene. I think the future of our country would be better served by spending some of that money in other ways.)

Right.  We are a wealthy nation.  European nations have MUCH more reasonable and affordable paths to higher ed.  I don't have all the answers, but if the political will was there, it could be done.  

We should also be helping those pursuing trades.  

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm certainly no economist and don't pretend to be. So perhaps my comment is from a place of ignorance. But if this is a reliable source then the cost of debt free college should be about $75  billion the first year. The U.S. military spending in 2020 was $766 billion. So cut military spending by less than 10 percent and pay for college. Shoot, maybe just make the DoD complete an audit and we'd find more than enough waste to cover the cost.

(Please note I'm not anti-military. But the amount we spend on bombs and  bullets is obscene. I think the future of our country would be better served by spending some of that money in other ways.)

Hear, hear! I am sick of money being used to find new ways to kill other humans while NOT funding the things our citizens need, and also not taking care of our veterans properly. Seriously! There is something totally whacked with this.

And why shouldn't we get tax dollars back in the form of benefits for our kids? It is our money, and especially when the tax code allows corporations to sneak out of paying their fair share. Of all the things we should be willing to support is robust, wonderful Finlandic like cradle to grave education for our people because that is way more worthy of our hard earned tax dollars than weapons of mass destruction.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Faith-manor

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Hear, hear! I am sick of money being used to find new ways to kill other humans while NOT funding the things our citizens need, and also not taking care of our veterans properly. Seriously! There is something totally whacked with this.

And why shouldn't we get tax dollars back in the form of benefits for our kids? It is our money, and especially when the tax code allows corporations to sneak out of paying their fair share. Of all the things we should be willing to support is robust, wonderful Finlandic like cradle to grave education for our people because that is way more worthy of our hard earned tax dollars than swap is of mass destruction.

and I bet the military would benefit too, indirectly, by having a more educated populace to recruit from!

[Clarita]

I'm against loan forgiveness because I believe the loans are the reason tuition is so high. I'd like to see the loans be treated like a new car loan. Cars are different than houses. While a car loan does have collateral at the end of the day a new car drops in price by 30% or more once it comes off the lot. So, a lender much rather see payments being made on the loan rather than have to repossess the car.

In essence, I don't want it because I don't want to continue to feed the beast so to speak. 

 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, catz said:

Right.  We are a wealthy nation.  European nations have MUCH more reasonable and affordable paths to higher ed.  I don't have all the answers, but if the political will was there, it could be done.  

We should also be helping those pursuing trades.  

Honestly I think very few people genuinely understand that trades ARE higher education. They receive FAFSA funding same as colleges. And nearly all reputable trade schools offer college credit and can transfer to 4 year university degrees.  And more and more universities offer trade courses/programs.  If they want to be an electrician - for example - they literally put in just as much time as a they would for a bachelors and frankly, more than some. It’s a solid 4+ years to complete the full electrician licensing program. Cheaper maybe pending what it’s being compared to, but not necessarily cheap to get. 

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

It’s the same in NY. CCs have transfer agreements with SUNY schools. What they don’t tell you is that not everything fits into a tidy little slot, so you can easily transfer in your gen Ed’s and still have a whole bunch of “elective credits” that don’t count for your degree.  I graduated from a CC in 2001. Started at a state school who said yep we take all your credits. They did, and then eliminated my major at the end of the year due to budget cuts and didn’t take most of my CC credits towards the new major I’d have moved into. Transferred to a small religious college who did have a transfer agreement with the CC and wound up spending an extra year at $28,000 because while I had tons of elective credits and had all my general education requirements waived due to the transfer agreement with the CC, most of them didn’t count for my double major.  I’d have been better off ignoring all the advice my parents and I thought was smart, because the CC saved me no time or money, and we didn’t know that most scholarships at four year schools go to freshmen, not transfer students. 
 

Higher Ed is a racket, and that’s coming from someone who really values college degrees.

I am so sorry! It really sucks, and it happens all over. It is a racket. But there is money to be made off that racket so it isn't likely to change.

One of our former rocket team members is in this boat. She spent 3 semesters at a low priced, marginally ranked university in state. Engineering major,  ABET certified program. Then in the middle of her third semester it came out that ABET had put the college on probation, and the administration's response was "let's gut the faculty"... never, ever a good idea, and will absolutely end with ABET rescinding certification for not meeting probation metrics. Seeing the hand writing on the wall, she quickly put out transfer applications. She was accepted at several engineering colleges, really good ones. The transfer scholarship was $2000-4000 on $30,000+ total attendance bills. Freshmen scholarships at these same schools were 2-4 times higher.

If a college has filled its freshmen class and has a high retention rate, they have very little incentive to woo transfer students. True story her World History class was rejected because the title was years blah to blah, and the new school's required class was ten years off. Ten years of difference for an engineering major!! 😬 When it was all said and done, between high school DE and her three semesters at the school, 61 credits, she was a sophomore that will have to attend 4 full years at the transfer university. Her first school she had enough scholarships stacked up to be full tuition plus some funds towards the dorm and meal plan so she had no student loans because her parents contributed.just enough to go woth her tutoring job. That is why she chose it even though it was not as highly ranked, and they were NOT forthcoming about their latest report from ABET. She was making what she and her parents by any reckoning, was a sound financial decision. Now she faces four years of federal student loans, and will have $25,000 ish in private student loans or more by the end, and 1.5 years gone. I have a feeling if college couldn't be funded by loans, and lenders didn't also work as financial consultants for college financial aid departments (and they do so yes, go swear and bang your head against the wall because it is a thing), then suddenly colleges would be better about this stuff. But, we also have to just overhaul the whole thing, and then take some state and federal control, and then fund more not loan financial aid from tax dollars.

She took the best transfer offer she got from a school with a four-year ABET certification and no dings on their record indicating that future renewal might not go through so she really is doing the best she can in pursuit of her dream. She is a fantastic engineering mind who was accepted to places like Georgia Tech, Case Western, U of Rochester, U of MI, and Virginia Tech. She couldn't afford any of them. Her parents are not wealthy by any stretch. Not even close, just in the lower middle class income wise.

It shouldn't be this hard. It doesn't have to be this hard. The powers that be don't care, and the greed mongers make money off it, so it isn't going to change, and no one has to worry, student loan forgiveness of any substantial sum of money isn't going to happen. The political and voter will is not there, and everyone can still winge about all those stupid students who can't get a decent job without a degree because business has set that as the bar, victims of a train wreck of a k12 education system they had no control over, and facing massive tax increases in the form of social security and Medicare withholdings that they will never see come back to them in order to support the Boomers and GenZ in their old age who apparently don't see themselves as the bad guys for making poor financial choices by not saving for their elder years, but are entitled to their kids' money to support them. Not saying I believe that last bit, but a lot of people do and the sheer irony of it is not lost on me!

For the record, I believe students should have legal recourse. I believe, like in the case of her university, when they made decisions that put their ABET certification at risk, every engineering major should have been reimbursed for every penny they spent at that school or their parents, and punitive damages for their wasted time in the school plus the costs to apply for transfers, and they should have to pay to the new school a lump sum in the amount of that student's freshman scholarship. If that school had been required to pony up $100,000 per engineering student, wanna bet they would have decided to pull their acts together and meet those ABET metrics? I bet they would have, and if not, she would have at least had the money going into the new school without being worse off financially, and able to endure the costs of being back to square one. Money is all these college administrators and trustees care about, so hit them where it counts! If they had to pay back every federal and private student loan those students took out to attend? The school would shape up. This business of gutting programs AFTER a student has paid money to enter that program would stop.

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Honestly I think very few people genuinely understand that trades ARE higher education. They receive FAFSA funding same as colleges. And nearly all reputable trade schools offer college credit and can transfer to 4 year university degrees.  And more and more universities offer trade courses/programs.  If they want to be an electrician - for example - they literally put in just as much time as a they would for a bachelors and frankly, more than some. It’s a solid 4+ years to complete the full electrician licensing program. Cheaper maybe pending what it’s being compared to, but not necessarily cheap to get. 

Yes. The tech is so much more complicated than it used to be decades ago. So maybe some kid could have daddy teach him how to do x ,y ,z and then take two classes and sit the exam 30 years ago. Not now. Even welding is a minimum two year degree and with only that, the top end of salary and position is low. Welding Engineering Technology Assistant is what I think it is called in a lot of states. Many factories want half or more of their welders to be four year degrees if they don't have ten - twenty years experience where they learned to program those robotic welders on the job and through continuing education work, seminars, etc. It is something some local students learned the hard way. They are good welders, talented even, at basic welding techniques. But basic welding techniques don't build cars and washing machines and batteries and....anymore. The welding machines are so heavily reliant on robotics for extremely fine welding that the human hand and eye may not be able to handle, that programming them is a bit like having a computer science minor. It is that way with so many things now. Science advances, so trades end up needing more scientific education.

I can't think of many basic trades that don't require college and only experience or on the job training. Painting, dry wall, and roofing come to mind. But if you look at what the workers make, it is not very good. Management or the small business owner are the ones getting the bucks and many of them now have business degrees or construction management degrees (like my niece in law who graduated from MSU), or something similar.

[ktgrok]

And many trade degrees that are an AA are actually longer than 2 years. I know my Veternary Technician degree is really 3 years - a year of general ed requirements and two years of specific coursework, plus you have to be working in the field to get the clinical stuff signed off. So, it's an AA, but not just a general ed type AA, which means more cost, more time. 

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

If it is not prudent for an individual to borrow to receive a college education, is it prudent for the government to borrow so that the person can receive a college education?  Given the massive government deficit and national debt, that is the choice set.  

I hate debt and try to live as debt free as possible. I truly do understand that unmitigated debt can enslave. But at some point we all have to spend money to make money - and that requires debt.

Should the govt not build roads bc individuals should incur the debt and if they can’t, then it’s too risky for the govt too?  Libraries? Hospitals? Police stations? The premise of government good in society for such things is that many hands can do more than individuals on their own and we all benefit from the investment.