Thanks!

[QueenCat]

41 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

The frustrating thing is that he knows, because he was a good parent and partner for years. But the illness prevents him from showing it consistently.

There is hope, though, as you've already shared that he's improving with his mental health issues.

[QueenCat]

33 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

There would be so many reasons this would be good, it’s really about whether DH can respect my kids’ boundaries.  If they aren’t going to be able to go for a bike ride or play basketball in the driveway without worrying that Dad will stop by then it’s not a great option.  

Wouldn't that be a good thing if his mental health continues to improve? 

[Ceilingfan]

I found it both depressing and empowering (how's that for a duality!) to look at the future risks of the kids' exposure to their dad as things I would be able to solve as they arose, just like I had solved the immediate crisis by leaving and involving the courts (and therapists, etc.). E.g., if unsupervised visitation goes badly, I can request and be granted a return to supervised visitation. If living here becomes truly untenable and dangerous, I can move. If he violates the order of protection, I can call the police (and/or my lawyer, depending).

I'd been unable to solve these crises for so long that my habituated response to the fear of a new one was "it'll go back to the way it was before (in some respect or another) and I won't be able to do anything about it again, as was the case for so long." 

It's not perfect, because the risk you're taking is that something undesirable has to actually happen in order to require the change (but the upside of the risk is that nothing undesirable happens, and you get the benefits for which you took the risk in the first place). But it is something, to be able to say to oneself, "this thing that may happen in the future can be handled." 

The depressing part is realizing that you're in it for the long haul, even after you leave. Not for forever, but for a while. The empowering part is realizing that you (along with the authority of the state) can continually, as appropriate, effect change. 

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Baseballandhockey

[Ceilingfan]

The guessing game of which action you took caused a decline or whether the decline was something that was starting organically and would have been "caused" by any random thing is so familiar.

It can really hamper you while you're still in the relationship and living together, because you try so hard to avoid triggering a decline that much of your life ends up being a sort of quasi-effective managing of someone's mental illness, which in the end really cannot be effectively managed from the outside. 

This is the most stressful point; in DV relationships, it's the most dangerous point. It will almost certainly get better over time, or at least more stable. There was a time (and not a short one) after I left when I sat up late hearing every creak of the house and watching out of the windows; some of that was PTSD but a lot was not. That lessened over time, and is now almost entirely absent in daily life. Unfortunately mental illness of certain types is unpredictable enough that you'll have a guard up of a sort indefinitely, but it becomes less pronounced. 

I read a useful thing about normal divorces - it was something like, the person who leaves has often been thinking about divorce for some time, here and there - fantasizing about what life might be like, maybe, or worrying about it. The person who has been left, even if they verbalized expectations that you might leave them, hasn't really thought about it seriously, or what it might look like - they haven't processed it rationally, only unconsciously, in fear. So it takes them a while, often about as long as it took you from the first time  you seriously rationally considered leaving, to accept that it has really happened. Once they begin to consciously reach the stage you were at when you left, their engagement with the process becomes a lot more rational, and things  calm down.

I thought that was a pretty useful frame for what I experienced, ymmv

[Scarlett]

I am 11 years post final divorce and almost 12 years from separation.  

He was out of his mind from the affair.  He was both shocked that I was divorcing him but also did not stop seeing her.  It was really an insane time.  So he had this little 24 year old telling him this and that in regards to custody and assets division.  

He first counter sued for custody.  That was a ridiculous move....designed to try and scare me into giving up my share of assets.  So I then had 2 of his affair partners subpoenaed and within 24 hours he was agreeing to me having sole custody with a visitation schedule that suited our son's needs and life.  

I frankly was out of my mind during part of it.  That is my biggest regret...not keeping better control of myself.  I think some of my actions hurt my son---I have apologized to him but it is a regret of mine. 

Once the dust settles, I would say living near each other is a huge plus.  And the longer that  both of you can go without dating and involving men and women in the mix the better.  I remarried within a year of my divorce being final.  New husband's XW had left him for another man and that man became dh's son's step dad....that step dad caused us YEARS of grief and was instrumental in dh's oldest son being alienated from him for 7 years.  XW left that man for another man....but in the years we had to share custody she was married to him and it was a nightmare.

Dh and my XH got along just fine.  About 2 years post divorce the affair fizzled and XH came to his senses....and he expressed true remorse and after that he has been fairly easy to work with. Our son is grown now of course so no more issues anyway.

 

[Stacia]

13 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Our state has the same thing, but there's also an option for sole custody where the custodial parent makes all decisions.  

Of course, sole custody is a thing and is often warranted.

I was mentioning things in case there is some type of joint custoday agreement (I know you don't want that) or possible questions that may arise. While you hope & wish courts will support your choices, it is not always so. And even if you do receive sole custody, it may bolster your arguments to the court if you can provide detailed info & examples as to why you should be the sole one making decisions for medical, educational, religious, extracurricular, & travel purposes (& also why their dad shouldn't).

Edited February 2, 2022 by Stacia

[Stacia]

Sorry. Dp.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Stacia

[Ottakee]

Just another warning.  Listen to and support your kids....but don't bent your frustrations on them, bad mouth their dad, or treat them like confidants.   Seek out friends or a counselor for that.

I have seen many parents turn their kids into friends and confidants and burden them with stuff they don't need to know and burdens they don't need to bear.

[Grace Hopper]

13 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 

Thanks for all the support!  I am going to delete this soon but I thought I'd update.

When I posted this I did really mean "I think I might . . . " as in I wasn't sure.  After a few days of escalating confrontation I'd told DH I needed a break, and was staying at his sister's, but I wasn't sure if it would be one night or a week or forever, but the next morning I had this very strong feeling that we couldn't continue the pattern we'd been in. 

I'm still not exactly sure what this will look like in the long term but DH has continued to escalate and to do things that both break my heart and illustrate why my kids can not live there.  

I have a meeting with him and his therapist tomorrow, to talk about next steps.  My lawyer is ready to file for either emergency or temporary custody, one question is whether DH and I file jointly or we oppose each other.  The other question is how long, and that I just don't know.  

Will his therapist be able to make a statement that favors you in any custody arrangement? Just thinking there may come a need to ask for a mental health evaluation by a neutral party. 

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

In the long term it might be.  We have a long way to go to get to that point.  He needs to do a lot of work to rebuild trust with the kids first, and that starts with him respecting their boundaries.  

It seems that either the incident that led to the separation was the beginning of another decline, or that my asking to stay at his sister’s triggered a decline.  I am not clear which but he is not functioning as well as a week ago.  

Would a legal separation be a possibility for you, instead of jumping straight to a divorce? 

You said that your dh used to be a wonderful husband and father until he developed the mental health issues, and I thought the mental health problems began while he was grieving the loss of your son, so I’m wondering if your dh might be able to work his way back to being his old self with a combination of time and more therapy.  
 

I’m not suggesting that you shouldn’t see your lawyer and prepare for a divorce, but you will probably have a legal separation that will deal with things like the custody issue, so I was just wondering if you could get all of your ducks in a row, but perhaps give your dh a bit of time before you go through with finalizing a divorce. 

I only say this because I remember how great things used to be between you, and because the loss of your son was such a huge blow to your family, that while I obviously want what’s best for you and your children, I also feel very sorry for your dh, because now he will feel like he has not just lost one of his children, but that he has lost all of them, and his wife as well. 

[Ceilingfan]

39 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Would a legal separation be a possibility for you, instead of jumping straight to a divorce? 

You said that your dh used to be a wonderful husband and father until he developed the mental health issues, and I thought the mental health problems began while he was grieving the loss of your son, so I’m wondering if your dh might be able to work his way back to being his old self with a combination of time and more therapy.  
 

I’m not suggesting that you shouldn’t see your lawyer and prepare for a divorce, but you will probably have a legal separation that will deal with things like the custody issue, so I was just wondering if you could get all of your ducks in a row, but perhaps give your dh a bit of time before you go through with finalizing a divorce. 

I only say this because I remember how great things used to be between you, and because the loss of your son was such a huge blow to your family, that while I obviously want what’s best for you and your children, I also feel very sorry for your dh, because now he will feel like he has not just lost one of his children, but that he has lost all of them, and his wife as well. 

I felt very badly for my ex-husband for just this reason too; I found it really hard to advocate for what the kids needed (and of course what I needed, but especially the kids), even as their therapists were encouraging me to bring certain things to the court's attention, because I didn't want him to lose his kids. I knew it would be devastating for him.

But here's the correct frame: as long as my ex-husband received mental health care and behaved in ways that were safe and appropriate for the kids, he wasn't losing them at all; if he made good choices, he'd have them half the time, which is a lot. By insisting that he only have full access to them when he was safe enough to be a decent parent (that is to say, by leaving him and filing for custody given the situation), I was actually giving him a clear way forward to have a good relationship with his kids, which is not something he had when we were together (although his mental illness caused him to think he did, while he was abusing them). This frame allowed me to advocate for the kids' interests without feeling guilty for depriving their father of them; it's his choices that determine what kind of relationship he has with the kids, not my choices.

 

[Ceilingfan]

And for the record, while on the whole I know you mean well, it's really dangerous to tell a woman who has been living with a mentally ill spouse that she should consider his needs above the needs of her children (and above her own needs). She's likely been wrestling with doing just that for a long time, and it is not her responsibility to see to his emotional health above her own or her kids'. It's just not. Those things, and the spouse's relationship with his kids, are his responsibility.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Ceilingfan said:

And for the record, while on the whole I know you mean well, it's really dangerous to tell a woman who has been living with a mentally ill spouse that she should consider his needs above the needs of her children (and above her own needs). She's likely been wrestling with doing just that for a long time, and it is not her responsibility to see to his emotional health above her own or her kids'. It's just not. Those things, and the spouse's relationship with his kids, are his responsibility.

I never said that she should consider her dh’s needs above her own. I only asked if a legal separation might be possible because of the extreme circumstances surrounding his mental illness.

BBH has told us in the past that her dh wasn’t able to cope with the death of their son, and he developed severe mental illness at least partly as a result of that intense grief. 

I can’t imagine anything worse for anyone to go through than the death of a child, so I’m trying to find a way for BBH to protect herself and the children, while also trying to give her dh more time to process and deal with his grief and his other issues. He has tried to get help, and even spent quite some time in a hospital, and it sounds like he has been receiving intense therapy outside the hospital as well. It seems like he is trying to get better, and hopefully he will, if given the time to do that. 

Again, I’m not saying that BBH should stay with him while he is trying to recover. I’m only asking if it might be possible to pursue the legal separation (and have everything ready to pull the trigger on the divorce if necessary,) but perhaps wait a while before finalizing it, in case her dh is able to once again be the husband and father he once was.

[Ceilingfan]

I hear you, Catwoman, and I know it comes from a good place, and from kindness and hope. And heck, maybe that would work.

But I know that when I finally left, my husband's twin sister called me (and recorded the conversation! and played it in court!) and said all of those things you just said, because she loved her brother and wanted to think that if he just finally got better, we could go back to the way things once were. I knew where she was coming from, and I knew I couldn't go back, but it still haunted me for a while, this idea that I had some moral obligation to extend him some grace that I wasn't extending, the possibility of reconciliation. 

Of course the situation here is certainly different, I dunno. I just tend to err on the side of supporting women where they are when they have finally decided to take care of themselves instead of taking care of their spouse, who is not even safe enough to leave the kids at home alone with.

It's possible I'm too personally jaded on this.

It did strike me as pretty remarkable that I had to defend in court both why I had left my husband and didn't want the kids to be with him alone AND why I had stayed with him and had ever left the kids with him alone. There's no winning, sometimes, for women. 

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

I hear you, Catwoman, and I know it comes from a good place, and from kindness and hope. And heck, maybe that would work.

But I know that when I finally left, my husband's twin sister called me (and recorded the conversation! and played it in court!) and said all of those things you just said, because she loved her brother and wanted to think that if he just finally got better, we could go back to the way things once were. I knew where she was coming from, and I knew I couldn't go back, but it still haunted me for a while, this idea that I had some moral obligation to extend him some grace that I wasn't extending, the possibility of reconciliation. 

Of course the situation here is certainly different, I dunno. I just tend to err on the side of supporting women where they are when they have finally decided to take care of themselves instead of taking care of their spouse, who is not even safe enough to leave the kids at home alone with.

It's possible I'm too personally jaded on this.

It did strike me as pretty remarkable that I had to defend in court both why I had left my husband and didn't want the kids to be with him alone AND why I had stayed with him and had ever left the kids with him alone. There's no winning, sometimes, for women. 

Wow, that’s terrible about what happened to you in court!  😞 

I don’t think this is a matter of anyone being jaded or not jaded; I think it’s that we’re all coming out this from different perspectives, and none of us knows the whole story from both sides — and even if we did, we still might not be in a place where we could give perfect advice.

That’s my main reason why I think it’s such a good thing that BBH has a good lawyer, and hopefully she also has a good therapist to help her work through this, as well. She has so many big decisions to make, and it must feel so overwhelming right now. 😢

[Rosie_0801]

Talk to your lawyer about how much you are and aren't allowed to protect your kids from their other parent.

It's probably a lot less than normal people would think.

One can end up with legal obligations one actually has no power to carry out. A favourite one of the courts is to make a parent/child relationship the responsibility of the *other* parent, who obviously has no way to control the other adult. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Ceilingfan said:

I felt very badly for my ex-husband for just this reason too; I found it really hard to advocate for what the kids needed (and of course what I needed, but especially the kids), even as their therapists were encouraging me to bring certain things to the court's attention, because I didn't want him to lose his kids. I knew it would be devastating for him.

But here's the correct frame: as long as my ex-husband received mental health care and behaved in ways that were safe and appropriate for the kids, he wasn't losing them at all; if he made good choices, he'd have them half the time, which is a lot. By insisting that he only have full access to them when he was safe enough to be a decent parent (that is to say, by leaving him and filing for custody given the situation), I was actually giving him a clear way forward to have a good relationship with his kids, which is not something he had when we were together (although his mental illness caused him to think he did, while he was abusing them). This frame allowed me to advocate for the kids' interests without feeling guilty for depriving their father of them; it's his choices that determine what kind of relationship he has with the kids, not my choices.

 

This is EXACTLY the frame we’re using with my family member. It is HARD to put everything out in public but if that’s what you have to do to protect the victims/vulnerable then that’s what you have to do. Family member can always choose to back down vs being publicly exposed.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Talk to your lawyer about how much you are and aren't allowed to protect your kids from their other parent.

It's probably a lot less than normal people would think.

One can end up with legal obligations one actually has no power to carry out. A favourite one of the courts is to make a parent/child relationship the responsibility of the *other* parent, who obviously has no way to control the other adult. 

This x 100. 

Second para especially. 

 

[Scarlett]

33 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Talk to your lawyer about how much you are and aren't allowed to protect your kids from their other parent.

It's probably a lot less than normal people would think.

One can end up with legal obligations one actually has no power to carry out. A favourite one of the courts is to make a parent/child relationship the responsibility of the *other* parent, who obviously has no way to control the other adult. 

It is all a big joke.  Courts are like cattle sale barns.  The are just running people through there.  

And it is very very difficult to protect a child from an unstable parent.  

My best advice to people is to do everything in your power to stay out of court.  

[Ceilingfan]

removed

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ceilingfan

[Scarlett]

10 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

I was in a small-town court in a conservative state, with a judge who very clearly won by saying "constitution" enough times in a 6 month period, and that was not my experience. It wasn't ideal; there was very little innate understanding of even domestic violence, much less mental illness, but the court was interested in protecting the kids, and it did so, at least better than I had feared (if not quite as well as I'd hoped).

I am glad you had a decent experience.  My experience has been the abuse has to be egregious and on going in order to get children protected.

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Baseballandhockey

[Ceilingfan]

That sounds like a fabulous plan! Well done.

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Baseballandhockey

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Baseballandhockey said:

That will depend on whether he actually signs, and whether he follows it, but I'm somewhat optimistic.

I hope he follows through. My family member has refused all therapy and will be alone. Permanently. It's both sad and necessary.

[Annie G]

I didn’t even realize you could file for custody without there being a separation or divorce petition also. Well, I guess I have heard of it in situations where one spouse was incarcerated.   
B and H, I hope it works out for you and the kids. 

[Catwoman]

41 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I'm not filing for divorce.   We still love each other, neither of us wants to date other people.  We aren't going to separate our finances at this point.   We just aren't going to live together. 

I'm not filing for separation, just for custody.  I met today with him and a therapist, and we worked out a plan that he tells me he will sign.  If that goes through, I will have full custody but he'll see the kids and me regularly, starting with short periods of times in supervised settings with a lot of structure.  This week we have agreed that he will go to one kid's basketball game, and that we would attend the same church service.  

Taking his kids away from him feels like a terrible thing.  He is attending therapy, and taking meds, but he is also still pretty delusional, and those delusions lead him to do things that are really traumatic to the kids.  I need to put them first.  

 

I'm glad to hear that you have a plan and that it seems like your dh is amenable to it. Yay for you! 

2 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I didn’t even realize you could file for custody without there being a separation or divorce petition also. Well, I guess I have heard of it in situations where one spouse was incarcerated.   
B and H, I hope it works out for you and the kids. 

I wasn't aware of that, either -- it's news to me, too! 🙂 

[Grace Hopper]

Does this mean you also would become the sole decision maker for your kids’ health care (ie vaccines)?

[scholastica]

I am so impressed by the way you are handling this. It truly is an example of love always willing the good of the other. 

[maize]

It is really, really hard to deal with mental health breakdown in someone you love. Hard to navigate the rocky terrain of genuinely loving the person and seeing the good in them while needing to protect yourself and especially vulnerable children from the monster that is mental illness. 

I hope your husband's state of mind improves and he finds true healing.

[Katy]

I also, am really impressed by you. 

[DreamerGirl]

I also want to join others in reiterating how impressed I am with you.

 

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Baseballandhockey

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Baseballandhockey

[madteaparty]

Listen to ceilingfan.keep a record of all parenting things you do on the daily (transported to here, scheduled this, did that) while also making it so you can’t be accused of parental alienation etc. it’s good to establish the patterns you want and keep to them. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by madteaparty

[Harriet Vane]

Sounds like a good plan.

Keep that lawyer on hand and make sure all documents are drafted or run by that person.

Keep extremely meticulous and detailed records.

Keep extremely involved with his therapy and medical care. You will need accurate information and the medical/therapy team also needs accurate information.

Again, my prayers are with you.

[HS Mom in NC]

17 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Taking his kids away from him feels like a terrible thing.  He is attending therapy, and taking meds, but he is also still pretty delusional, and those delusions lead him to do things that are really traumatic to the kids.  I need to put them first. 

Stay strong and know you're doing the right thing by both your children and their father by drawing a hard line and sticking to it. Sometimes the right thing is terrible, but it's so much better than not doing the right thing. I've seen first hand what happens to the relationship between the children and the stable parent when the stable parent doesn't do what it takes to protect the kids from the mentally ill, unstable parent.  I don't know if the relationship between my two nieces and their stable parent, my step-brother,  will ever be fully restored, but right now, after 8 years, it hasn't been. It's distant physically and emotionally with severe limits on contact in frequency, duration, and emotional intimacy. There's been no contact with the mentally ill, unstable parent for 7 years. 

My parents' situation was different than your situation in many ways, but my father's drinking and adultery resulted in Mom throwing him out, filing for divorce, and getting supervised visitation. It's what he needed to get and stay sober. He got help right away so he wouldn't lose his kids. After several years he had showed a consistent pattern of stability and had normal 70s-80s style unsupervised visitation every other weekend from then on.  Thanks, Mom! We had as normal a relationship with him as possible because of what she did. Looking back,  it was a gracious and merciful thing she did demanding supervised visitation,  and to his credit, he stepped up and took responsibility for making in necessary. That means a lot to us as their kids.