article by trans woman concerned about peer pressure to be trans

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

When I hear these things, it is weird. My trans Ds pushes gender roles all the time. He’s trans but has long hair, sometimes wears make up, sometimes paints his nails, wears a lot of pink and purple, the list goes on. Him being transgender has absolutely nothing to do with any of that so it’s always weird to hear it.

I'm sure it varies from place to place but it is a definite thing here. I'm hearing it from my daughter, from my niece, and from my friends who have kids this age. The adults have different perspectives, so it's not the parenting. And some go to different schools, or homeschool, etc. It's widespread. My sister bless her heart spent a good amount of time trying to convince her daughter that girls don't have to be girly, and that our generation and the ones before fought hard for there to not be "girly" things and "boyish" things!!! 

Transgender should NOT be based on that stuff - and I know it isn't for truly transgendered folks - but it IS being equated in the middle school crowd around here, at least. 

[Catwoman]

39 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I'm 100% for using preferred names and pronouns.  I am totally fine with puberty blockers, and my kids have friends for whom hormones and surgery in the teen years was 100% the right move.  These were kids who had persistent, intense dysphoria that had started at a pretty young age.  

I believe there is absolutely, 100% a need for trans affirming healthcare for children and teens, and simultaneously I also have questions and concerns about the exponential rise in especially people assigned female at birth transitioning.  The fact that 70% of the kids at my kid's school are trans/ nonbinary kinda makes me wonder about a bit of social contagion for my kid when my kid didn't show any signs of dysphoria prior to age 15.  And there really is absolutely no gender therapy to be had.  I thought we had one, but it turns out when the kid says, "I just want a letter for surgery," that's what they get.  

We did a legal name change.  We bought a binder.  I am worried about surgery, but we will support it.  I am praying that it resolves the dysphoria.  I just worry that a kid who also coincidentally developed tics when around people with tic disorders might be susceptible, and surgery is a huge, permanent change that I have questions about (but not strong feelings opposing).  Is it transphobic that I would like it to be entered into with more individualized, in depth evaluation than is remotely possible for us to get?

My college roommate is trans.  My kid's godmother is trans.  We have all sorts of trans adults in our life who I am proud of and love and support.  I was very careful when my kids were little to say things like, "Most of the time, people who are born with vaginas are women."  I've been advocating for trans rights since the 1990's.  

But I still have concerns and questions about the rapid increase in this phenomena.  Both things can be true.  

It's entirely possible that there's not really an increase, and that the incidence has always been whatever it currently is and people just feel more free to come out, and that would be awesome!  But it seems like an area that should be investigated and researched.  

Honestly, if anywhere near 70% of the kids at your kid's school are trans/non-binary, I would think that there absolutely has to be a strong social contagion component at play there. Statistically, it simply doesn't seem to be possible that such an incredibly high percentage of kids in one school would identify as trans or non-binary.

I would be particularly concerned about your child who has gender identity issues and who also developed a tic disorder when around other people with tic disorders. I'm certainly no expert on any of this, but I would be very worried about social contagion having had an effect on this particular child. That said, I know you are already doing everything you can to help them, so I am hopeful that everything will sort out the right way (whatever that happens to be!) in the end. 

[KSera]

Just now, Joker2 said:

When I hear these things, it is weird. My trans Ds pushes gender roles all the time. He’s trans but has long hair, sometimes wears make up, sometimes paints his nails, wears a lot of pink and purple, the list goes on. Him being transgender has absolutely nothing to do with any of that so it’s always weird to hear it.

Am I remembering correctly that you live somewhere where trans identification isn't all that common among young people? I wonder if that leads you to have a different experience of it there. I see some of the non binary kids I know push gender roles, but most of the trans boys/men I know become very male stereotyped in appearance (though usually not in interests, just appearance). I do know one trans young person who identifies as he/him, but that you would never guess it from anything other than that they state that they do, but that person is an outlier among those I know. They are one that I feel certain would not be on this road if not for their entire friend group being trans as well. If I can be frank in a group where no one knows the person I'm talking about, there is just absolutely nothing at all that rings true about that identification for this particular person--even their new chosen name is another female name. This person has not medicalized at all and is one I expect is highly likely to desist if they don't end up medicalizing before then. It's rough for trans males to desist and return to their female identities if/when they have already gone through a lot of irreversible testosterone-induced changes, and I admire the young women that have done that even so.

[Terabith]

19 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Honestly, if anywhere near 70% of the kids at your kid's school are trans/non-binary, I would think that there absolutely has to be a strong social contagion component at play there. Statistically, it simply doesn't seem to be possible that such an incredibly high percentage of kids in one school would identify as trans or non-binary.

I would be particularly concerned about your child who has gender identity issues and who also developed a tic disorder when around other people with tic disorders. I'm certainly no expert on any of this, but I would be very worried about social contagion having had an effect on this particular child. That said, I know you are already doing everything you can to help them, so I am hopeful that everything will sort out the right way (whatever that happens to be!) in the end. 

I mean, to be fair, it is not a traditional public school.  It is a teeny tiny, arts focused, liberal arts, hippie school that attracts the kids who are rejects in other schools.  It also attracts kids who are children of academics or very into the arts, but it's not a random sample set by any means.  And my kid had decided they were nonbinary before we enrolled at the school, which has been a very good fit for them in many different ways.  But I had seen some social contagion issues at the public school that gave my kid a nervous breakdown, too.  

But yes, my concerns are largely THIS KID specific.  I think it will probably work out okay in the end.  At the end of the day, if the worst thing that happens is they regret removing their breasts, it's not the end of the world.  They're just boobs.  I would infinitely prefer they didn't, and I am doing absolutely nothing to facilitate surgery at this juncture, but if they make it happen, I will support it, and they are now 18.  

Edited January 8, 2022 by Terabith

[LMD]

16 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I, obviously, don’t agree but thank you for answering. I know these discussions can get really heated (and some of that has been my fault for sure) but I’m honestly trying to understand better where everyone is coming from. 

🙂

Look, I think we're really not so extremely opposed as some might assume. I'm not so naive to think that there isn't some grey area around older teens, persistence, mental health emergencies etc. I would really like to think that as adults we could say that, and also say that other things are concerning too. There can be a balance. I want good treatments that have good long term studies, I want better options and understanding for kids struggling with dysphoria.

[1234]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Am I remembering correctly that you live somewhere where trans identification isn't all that common among young people? I wonder if that leads you to have a different experience of it there. I see some of the non binary kids I know push gender roles, but most of the trans boys/men I know become very male stereotyped in appearance (though usually not in interests, just appearance). I do know one trans young person who identifies as he/him, but that you would never guess it from anything other than that they state that they do, but that person is an outlier among those I know. They are one that I feel certain would not be on this road if not for their entire friend group being trans as well. If I can be frank in a group where no one knows the person I'm talking about, there is just absolutely nothing at all that rings true about that identification for this particular person--even their new chosen name is another female name. This person has not medicalized at all and is one I expect is highly likely to desist if they don't end up medicalizing before then. It's rough for trans males to desist and return to their female identities if/when they have already gone through a lot of irreversible testosterone-induced changes, and I admire the young women that have done that even so.

Yes, there were no trans students (that we know of) in his high school when he came out. It’s a very conservative area but thankfully no teachers or staff pushed back on using his preferred name and pronouns. Many students were nasty in the halls and such but none were violent. He has some trans friends now he’s met at college and through groups but it’s not a large group.

I do feel more around here are coming out as non binary, but not wanting any hormones or surgery like some of you are experiencing. Youngest is non binary but doesn’t want either of those things nor do they want to change their gender markers on any documents, so I think I’ve gotten lucky with all of that. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I have a child who has shown a strong preference for being a female since he could talk.  If he tells me as a teenager that he’s trans, I will support him in any way possible.  
On the other hand, my college boyfriend decided at 39 that he is a she.  And I do support her, but there was never ever any signs of gender dysphoria and I have known him since he was 12. And we almost got married; I knew him very well.   However, she has an enormous amount of hatred for the fundamentalist Christian way she was brought up and has spent her entire adult life doing anything and everything that would shock and upset her parents.  She’s been able to get hormones, top surgery scheduled, and legally change her name since coming out in July.  Never any therapy, which for her I think would have been a better place to start. 
 

I don’t think this is an either/or and I want to listen to trans voices.  There are people who legimitately are not what their bodies look like.  And there are people who are influenced by social contagion or another desire.  What I am really concerned about is my masc lesbian friends, because suddenly the desire for no gender constraints has somehow morphed into girls are/do/look like this and boys are/do/look like this.  I don’t understand how we got there.

[KSera]

44 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Are they really though?  Is this widespread?  Is there data on this?  

 

 But just from the families I know, they are exhausted by the judgment and the 2nd guessing all the time.  I trust most parents are trying to do the best they can with the kid in front of them and the best information available to them at a given time.  

Is it widespread and there is data on that. You can look it up and see.

 

I agree parents are trying to do the best they can with the kids in front of them. I'm one of those parents doing so. I am just concerned that that job is being made harder for parents by generally well meaning people being gung ho about paths that are not benign, as if all paths are equal. When it comes to medicalizing, they aren't. There are serious health risks and life impacts and no one seems to want to acknowledge those or take them seriously. And I really do think, that without meaning to be or realizing it, many people are making their minds up based solely on their desire to be open minded, without knowing much about what the implications are long term. It's honestly pretty easy to end up there when it's other people's kids--these are mostly all great kids and it's easy to just want them to be happy.

Edited January 8, 2022 by KSera

[Dmmetler]

One thing that seems likely to me is that there may be something of a hammer/nail situation. When I was 15-16, I was miserable every month...like a good 2 weeks out of every 4, and basically I was just told to suck it up and deal. It wasn't until I was 19 and in college that student health suggested that taking the pill might help those symptoms. And when I went off the pill in my 20's,things had stabilized, and it wasn't nearly so bad. If I had friends who were trans and were happy about not having periods due to T, and my female friends weren't struggling as I was,it would have been easy to decide that maybe, just maybe, I'm not female. 

I really wonder how many of those who desist are those like me, who really had a hard time with puberty-and that maybe, just maybe, if we were more willing to give teen girls medication to control their menstrual cycle, there would be fewer teens wqnting medication to change their gender. 

[Frances]

21 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

One thing that seems likely to me is that there may be something of a hammer/nail situation. When I was 15-16, I was miserable every month...like a good 2 weeks out of every 4, and basically I was just told to suck it up and deal. It wasn't until I was 19 and in college that student health suggested that taking the pill might help those symptoms. And when I went off the pill in my 20's,things had stabilized, and it wasn't nearly so bad. If I had friends who were trans and were happy about not having periods due to T, and my female friends weren't struggling as I was,it would have been easy to decide that maybe, just maybe, I'm not female. 

I really wonder how many of those who desist are those like me, who really had a hard time with puberty-and that maybe, just maybe, if we were more willing to give teen girls medication to control their menstrual cycle, there would be fewer teens wqnting medication to change their gender. 

After many years with a hormonal IUD, I will say I’m always surprised that way, way more women don’t get them. I know when I was younger they weren’t really recommended until after you had at least one pregnancy, but that is no longer true.  My periods were never terrible like some of the stories I’ve read on this board, but not having a period for 20+ years was absolutely wonderful. And the less than a day of discomfort during removal/insertion and perhaps up to a month of spotting each time was nothing at all compared to a period with PMS every month.

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

After many years with a hormonal IUD, I will say I’m always surprised that way, way more women don’t get them. I know when I was younger they weren’t really recommended until after you had at least one pregnancy, but that is no longer true.  My periods were never terrible like some of the stories I’ve read on this board, but not having a period for 20+ years was absolutely wonderful. And the less than a day of discomfort during removal/insertion and perhaps up to a month of spotting each time was nothing at all compared to a period with PMS every month.

Your hormonal IUD gets rid of PMS?

I have huge problems with PMS, but also with uncontrolled blood pressure.  So, I am very curious about this solution.

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Your hormonal IUD gets rid of PMS?

I have huge problems with PMS, but also with uncontrolled blood pressure.  So, I am very curious about this solution.

At least for me, it got rid of everything. No period, no cramps, no br**st tenderness, no irritability, no bloating, no acne, etc.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Frances

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

At least for me, it got rid of everything. No period, no cramps, no br**st tenderness, no irritability, no bloating, no acne, etc.

No depression?

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

At least for me, it got rid of everything. No period, no cramps, no br**st tenderness, no irritability, no bloating, etc.

I think it's the hit or miss nature of them that makes them not an easy sell for everyone. Some people love them, like you did, and some people have terrible experiences with way more cramping. It's hard to make the leap when you don't know which group you will be in.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

No depression?

I think that’s harder to say because it’s something I’ve struggled with on and off with my entire adult life. I didn’t start using an IUD until 30. So I guess I would say it didn’t make a difference there. But I don’t recall my depression really being affected one way or another by my period prior to using either birth control pills or an IUD.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Frances

[LMD]

51 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

One thing that seems likely to me is that there may be something of a hammer/nail situation. When I was 15-16, I was miserable every month...like a good 2 weeks out of every 4, and basically I was just told to suck it up and deal. It wasn't until I was 19 and in college that student health suggested that taking the pill might help those symptoms. And when I went off the pill in my 20's,things had stabilized, and it wasn't nearly so bad. If I had friends who were trans and were happy about not having periods due to T, and my female friends weren't struggling as I was,it would have been easy to decide that maybe, just maybe, I'm not female. 

I really wonder how many of those who desist are those like me, who really had a hard time with puberty-and that maybe, just maybe, if we were more willing to give teen girls medication to control their menstrual cycle, there would be fewer teens wqnting medication to change their gender. 

My bold, yes I agree. And I agree with the sentiment of taking young women's reproductive health struggles seriously as one possible factor in mitigating young women disassociating from their femaleness.

I have qualms about the pill/medically controlling menstruation being the solution (I am sure you didn't mean to imply that, I'm just jumping off the point), because many times it's just used as a throw away bandaid solution enabling the further neglect of women's reproductive health care. The pill was supposed to cure my acne, 20+ years later I'm still trying to figure out my female reproductive system issues (exacerbated by hormonal contraception) and I still have pimples. 🤷‍♀️

[LMD]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

I do think it’s a problem when progressives aren’t allowed to say something is a problem, and then the only voices are conservative voices.  
 

I have had some things, one of them phonics, where everything about me should make me be a “whole language” person, and I could have gone through life that way without my own personal experiences.  
 

I think it’s better now, but several years ago, you couldn’t FIND an “approved” voice expressing concern about whole language.  There WASN’T one.  
 

I think it takes time for that to happen.  
 

So just because today, right now, there is not an approved progressive voice, just does not MEAN very much.  
 

A progressive voice would not be exactly the same as a conservative voice, but I think there is room to see some reason in conservative voices without agreeing 100% and while actively disagreeing with some conclusions.  
 

But if it’s so contaminated that a progressive can’t dissent at all, without being assumed to also follow a lot of really horrible thought processes, it just shuts down the possibility of dissent.

 

I have had this with phonics vs whole reading, which might not seem so controversial now but I promise it was so controversial.
 

And then another issue close to me, where I have ended up on the “non-approved” side from what I agree with on many other things.  But it’s one of those issues where it’s a big thing to see things a certain way and thing the other way is so wrong.

 

And it is just political!  
 

It is so frustrating.  It makes it very hard to discern what is believable information and what is just political posturing or cant.  

There actually are plenty of progressive voices, but if they are women, they get immediately unpersoned and 'smeared' as conservative and banned if they dare speak out. If they are men they usually just get ignored or the disappointed head shake (see: dawkins right now).

[Dmmetler]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

My bold, yes I agree. And I agree with the sentiment of taking young women's reproductive health struggles seriously as one possible factor in mitigating young women disassociating from their femaleness.

I have qualms about the pill/medically controlling menstruation being the solution (I am sure you didn't mean to imply that, I'm just jumping off the point), because many times it's just used as a throw away bandaid solution enabling the further neglect of women's reproductive health care. The pill was supposed to cure my acne, 20+ years later I'm still trying to figure out my female reproductive system issues (exacerbated by hormonal contraception) and I still have pimples. 🤷‍♀️

It may not be the solution, but I think that maybe we should start by listening to WHY a girl might feel dysphoric, and maybe see what we can do there first. 

 

 

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

It may not be the solution, but I think that maybe we should start by listening to WHY a girl might feel dysphoric, and maybe see what we can do there first. 

 

 

Absolutely! If you did that in my state you'd face jail time for conversion therapy.

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

It may not be the solution, but I think that maybe we should start by listening to WHY a girl might feel dysphoric, and maybe see what we can do there first. 

 

 

Yup. 

And I am sure that misogyny plays a role as well - if you know women have to deal with rape, assault, lower pay for equal work, medical complaints dismissed as in their head, etc etc etc it is kind of easy to see why being male would be attractive. Add in not feeling girly enough for the instagram standards that are pushed these days - perfect skin, perfect hair that costs a fortune to maintain, perfect body type, etc etc....yeah, I can see the attraction. A "fix" for that could be appealing. 

[SKL]

10 hours ago, LMD said:

Absolutely! If you did that in my state you'd face jail time for conversion therapy.

Expressing any doubt at all that a teen is trans makes you transphobic here.  Transphobic people don’t deserve to be listened to.

[SanDiegoMom]

15 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I am okay with social transitioning, along with therapy, as a child. I'm okay with people who pursue more than that as an adult. I'm on the fence on hormones, but at this point it isn't something I have to have an opinion on. 

 

There are a few studies done on Social Transition -- (from the page https://www.statsforgender.org/social-transition/

**Social transition – changing names, pronouns, clothing and bathroom use – correlates with the persistence of transgender identity.

Pediatric transition doctors in the Netherlands who first pioneered the use of puberty blockers in dysphoric children observe that social transition correlates with an increase in young people’s persistence when it comes to gender identity [1]. This led them to caution against social transition before puberty.

Another paper [2] notes that gender dysphoria is more persistent into adolescence where social transition has occurred, and as such asserts that social transition is a “psychosocial intervention [which] might be characterized as iatrogenic” – a medical problem caused by the treatment itself.

There is evidence [3] that social transition by the child was found to be strongly correlated with persistence for natal boys, more so than for girls.

REFERENCES

[1] de Vries, A. L., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2012). Clinical management of gender dysphoria in children and adolescents: The Dutch approach. Journal of Homosexuality 59 (3): 301–320. [Link]

[2] Zucker, K. J. (2019). Debate: Different strokes for different folks. Child and Adolescent Mental Health 25(1): 36-37. [Link]

[3] Steensma, T.D., McGuire, J.K., Kreukels, B.P., Beekman, A.J. & Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2013). Factors associated with desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria: a quantitative follow-up study. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 52 (6): 582-90. [Link]**

 

It should be understood that it is a powerful psychosocial intervention.  Currently it is very much the first course of action -- especially in states like mine which allow affirmation only therapy.  So change names, change pronouns, school (with or without parents' knowledge) changes kids identity.  I don't believe this is an either/or issue -- either it should be widespread allowed or it should never be used.   I do believe that it can be very problematic if there is a child who is gender non conforming from a young age, who aligns with the opposite sex, who has a 66-94 percent chance (or thereabouts -- depending on which study you are looking at) of growing up gay, but who has been transitioned at a young age and lived as the opposite sex.  That is a huge psychological interference from an early age. 

If they are a teen who socially transitions, coming back if they desist can be extremely traumatic, however they are at least in the actual identity questioning stage of their lives. 

Regarding puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, some of the countries who led the way in the studies and use of them are now ending them for minors due to low risk/benefit ratio as compared to mental health support.  

https://segm.org/Sweden_ends_use_of_Dutch_protocol

[SanDiegoMom]

23 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

That's a lot of words but not much data. "Some" influencers may be saying this or that - how many? How popular are they compared to other ones? How influential are they, really? Parents have increasingly contacted her - how many more? What's the increase?

The only bit of data she has, the factoid from the gallup poll, says nothing specifically about trans (or nonbinary, agender, genderqueer) kids, but only about the percentage of that population that identifies as any of L G B T or Q. Which is interesting, but given that she's specifically talking about T, it's effectively meaningless. If you actually click the link, you find that nowhere near the 1 in 6 ratio of people in that age cohort identify as transgender, but only about 2%, which is 1 in 50, and only a slight increase over millennials. (It is nearly twice the percentage of Generation X, but when you're dealing with small numbers like 1 and 2% it's hard to tell if that's a trend or a fluke.) Nearly all the others who identify as LGBTQ identify as bisexual. That's an area which has shown a real increase in the younger crowd.

And you know what? If somebody is willing to be mendacious about something so easily checked, I don't believe any of the rest of it. Oh sure, she didn't actually *say* "One in six of this age group identifies as transgender!" but she sure wrote that surrounding paragraph in order to create that impression - and I do not believe, based on the writing throughout the article, that she's simply ignorant and cannot write well either.

She knew what she was doing. She was, for whatever reason, trying to create an impression that the percentage of youths who identify as transgender is significantly higher than she knows it is by looking at that same data she cites. She was only hoping that people wouldn't follow through and check her misleading statement.

Well, I checked. This sort of thing is exactly why I always check.

Do you really think she doesn't have the data to back her up? She has literally been working in this field for 30 years, she was the president of USPATH and on the board of directors of WPATH. 

Here is the article she and Dr. Laura Edwards-Leeper cowrote about the problems of the current state of mental health care in the US care https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

Here is the interview that talks about her decision to step down from these organizations https://quillette.com/2022/01/06/a-transgender-pioneer-explains-why-she-stepped-down-from-uspath-and-wpath/ 

Her psychology practice is based on primarily gender and sexuality issues.  She is seeing more and more issues with affirmation only, and is trying to voice her concerns.  

[GoodGrief3]

13 hours ago, LMD said:

I have qualms about the pill/medically controlling menstruation being the solution (I am sure you didn't mean to imply that, I'm just jumping off the point), because many times it's just used as a throw away bandaid solution enabling the further neglect of women's reproductive health care.

Endometriosis is extremely common, and the average GYN is still applying hormonal bandaids to teens who present with early symptoms of the condition (as well as adults.) It's shocking to me that we still aren't treating women properly.

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom said:

**Social transition – changing names, pronouns, clothing and bathroom use – correlates with the persistence of transgender identity.

It's possible the persistence is caused by the social transition, but it's also possible that those more likely to persist are more likely to choose to socially transition. You can't randomly assign social transition to tease that out, so I think any conclusions are iffy.

Is the goal to have kids not be trans and instead gay if at all possible? If there are suggestions of that coming through the research (not pointing at that research - just in general), then I can see why there is some bristling. Maybe more of the people who came out as gay in earlier times actually would have been trans if that was more of a socially acceptable option. Having said that, I do recognize the medical issues associated with treating trans people and know there can be physical repercussions that aren't present in other non-cis/straight orientations, so if those can be avoided and mental health still preserved (big if) then I can see the point there. There is so much we still don't know yet.

[1234]

14 minutes ago, livetoread said:

It's possible the persistence is caused by the social transition, but it's also possible that those more likely to persist are more likely to choose to socially transition. You can't randomly assign social transition to tease that out, so I think any conclusions are iffy.

Is the goal to have kids not be trans and instead gay if at all possible? If there are suggestions of that coming through the research (not pointing at that research - just in general), then I can see why there is some bristling. Maybe more of the people who came out as gay in earlier times actually would have been trans if that was more of a socially acceptable option. Having said that, I do recognize the medical issues associated with treating trans people and know there can be physical repercussions that aren't present in other non-cis/straight orientations, so if those can be avoided and mental health still preserved (big if) then I can see the point there. There is so much we still don't know yet.

Yes. Some say they feel it’s like conversion therapy and that many of these kids would be gay, not trans. It feels kind of like conversion therapy to deny trans kids treatment such as socially transitioning because some would just rather them be gay, not trans. There is so much we don’t know which is why we definitely need more research but, again, I don’t think in the interim we quit giving treatment to trans kids that work for many. There’s no easy answers.

ETA: FTR, my Ds is trans and gay so it’s a moot point for us. He’s now engaged to a  sweet girl but he’s dated both males and females. He wasn’t trying to escape being gay by becoming trans. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Joker2

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, livetoread said:

Is the goal to have kids not be trans and instead gay if at all possible? If there are suggestions of that coming through the research (not pointing at that research - just in general), then I can see why there is some bristling. Maybe more of the people who came out as gay in earlier times actually would have been trans if that was more of a socially acceptable option. Having said that, I do recognize the medical issues associated with treating trans people and know there can be physical repercussions that aren't present in other non-cis/straight orientations, so if those can be avoided and mental health still preserved (big if) then I can see the point there.

As I was relieved to see you noted further down, yes, the goal would be for people not to end up on lifelong treatments that are harmful to their cardiac health, bone health, and sexual health and that often remove their fertility if that is not a necessary path. Being gay requires no medical treatment. Medicalization of a trans identity has huge health repercussions and it's super problematic that it is so often treated like a neutral or "yay!" path compared to avoiding that when possible. On these lines, yesterday I saw someone on Twitter advertising a Go Fund Me for the LGBT club at the school they work at, to fund binders and clothing for trans students. There are quite a few organizations that provide free binders to kids who can't afford them. Binders are risky! They cause harm to kids' bodies. I actually felt better about my dc having top surgery than wearing a binder long term, due to the risks. The idea that schools and non profits send them to kids as if they were just t shirts and think that's a good thing is upsetting to me.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

coming back if they desist can be extremely traumatic.

 

I am far from an expert on this.  But I wonder if, somehow, this is what we need to figure out how to fix.  

I also wonder if communicating to kids who are exploring gender, or trying on transition, that social transition is a very big deal, forces them into a position where they are constantly needing to defend their position or their identity, if that makes it harder to try something different later.  

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I am far from an expert on this.  But I wonder if, somehow, this is what we need to figure out how to fix.  

I also wonder if communicating to kids who are exploring gender, or trying on transition, that social transition is a very big deal, forces them into a position where they are constantly needing to defend their position or their identity, if that makes it harder to try something different later.  

Yes!  I know when I was little, I played around with a zillion nicknames.  My first name is Jessica, and I went through periods of being Jess and Jessie, and Jessie Anne (middle name at time), and a few other variations.  

And kids change clothing styles and hair styles.  I'd love to see kids feel free to experiment with presenting gender in the same way, with nobody worrying overly much about it.  

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Frances said:

At least for me, it got rid of everything. No period, no cramps, no br**st tenderness, no irritability, no bloating, no acne, etc.

It did for me too. But then I got breast cancer and it freaked me out a bit that it may have been brought on by the IUD. Even though I was told two hundred times that it bears no relationship. I did take it out, though, and have a copper put in instead. 

My dd had severe dysmenhoreah (however you spell it) and has been on the pill for...ever. I have told her she might consider an IUD but she is afraid of it. 

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I am far from an expert on this.  But I wonder if, somehow, this is what we need to figure out how to fix.  

I also wonder if communicating to kids who are exploring gender, or trying on transition, that social transition is a very big deal, forces them into a position where they are constantly needing to defend their position or their identity, if that makes it harder to try something different later.  

I agree it would be helpful for kids/people to feel like they don't have to feel like they've lost face or anything if they change their mind in the future. Obviously, medicalization makes that a lot harder, though. Women who took testosterone and then desist are usually left with a low voice (voice change doesn't reverse) and frequently continue to have extra facial hair. And if they acquired male pattern baldness while on it, that doesn't reverse as well. In addition to other changes that don't go away that I won't go into.

I think this idea that gender is something hardwired separately from sex so that being transgender just is a non-controvertible fact makes it much harder for people to go back on it, because it acknowledges that it isn't. There is no evidence for this idea anyway, but it is treated as if there is.

[Dmmetler]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Yes!  I know when I was little, I played around with a zillion nicknames.  My first name is Jessica, and I went through periods of being Jess and Jessie, and Jessie Anne (middle name at time), and a few other variations.  

And kids change clothing styles and hair styles.  I'd love to see kids feel free to experiment with presenting gender in the same way, with nobody worrying overly much about it.  

And that’s something I think, too. I mean, it’s not that uncommon to change nicknames, hair style, clothing, etc especially as teens. I kind of feel that if you avoid making too big of a deal about gender and pronouns, it would be easier for kids to move away from it as part of growing up-but by making it that your identity IS trans, well, it’s going to be harder to change. If you have to fight your school to be accepted, or to split from your church, or cut off grandma for being non-affirming…it would be hard to look back and say “oh, yeah, that was me between the age of 14-20, but it’s not me anymore. “

 

[Clarita]

15 hours ago, KSera said:

I think it's the hit or miss nature of them that makes them not an easy sell for everyone. Some people love them, like you did, and some people have terrible experiences with way more cramping. It's hard to make the leap when you don't know which group you will be in.

You do have to make sure they are all the "same" type of IUD. One just prevents pregnancy (the copper one) which does nothing to help the mentraul cycle symptoms, in fact a side effect maybe that it makes the period stuff worse. The other one is based on hormone stuff which I have heard helps the menstral cycle symptoms, even then there are outliers. I've heard from friends who were unhappy on the pill (moody, etc.) do wonderfully on an IUD.

[SanDiegoMom]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I am far from an expert on this.  But I wonder if, somehow, this is what we need to figure out how to fix.  

I also wonder if communicating to kids who are exploring gender, or trying on transition, that social transition is a very big deal, forces them into a position where they are constantly needing to defend their position or their identity, if that makes it harder to try something different later.  

There's a good episode about social transition by Gender: A Wider Lens, where they talk about the nuances involved in both social transition with younger, prepubertal children and older teens.  https://gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/40-social-transition-a-powerful-psychosocial-intervention

 

Also of importance in dealing with young children is the concept of sex constancy - which is theorized not to be fully formed until around age 7 or 8.  The idea is that there are age windows where children learn that biological sex does not change, say, if a person were to put on a dress or to do an activity associated with the opposite sex.  I think that is the biggest worry with early social transition -- already a young child is predisposed to believe that sex is more mutable than it really is.  Puberty will provide a huge reckoning, at a pretty severe emotional cost.

https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-gender-constancy-4688620

I find it concerning that in the past, trying on new identities (punk, goth, emo, etc) have become trying on new sexualities and gender.  Maybe in general it is harmless.  But the fact that there is such a huge overlap in trans-identifying teens with autistic teens (or teens with autistic traits) drives my concern. That and the fact that identifying as emo or goth does not require lifelong medicalization, whereas now even gender nullification surgery is being promoted, and micro-dosing hormones.  

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

And that’s something I think, too. I mean, it’s not that uncommon to change nicknames, hair style, clothing, etc especially as teens. I kind of feel that if you avoid making too big of a deal about gender and pronouns, it would be easier for kids to move away from it as part of growing up-but by making it that your identity IS trans, well, it’s going to be harder to change. If you have to fight your school to be accepted, or to split from your church, or cut off grandma for being non-affirming…it would be hard to look back and say “oh, yeah, that was me between the age of 14-20, but it’s not me anymore. “

 

Given this, which makes a lot of sense to me, how do people here feel about workplaces requiring or encouraging people to use pronouns in their email signatures? As a worker, what’s the best response if it’s only encouraged, not required?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Frances

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I am far from an expert on this.  But I wonder if, somehow, this is what we need to figure out how to fix.  

I also wonder if communicating to kids who are exploring gender, or trying on transition, that social transition is a very big deal, forces them into a position where they are constantly needing to defend their position or their identity, if that makes it harder to try something different later.  

This needing to label everything is concerning in general to me. My DD11 explained to me that there is a label for "sometimes wants sex, but soemtimes doesn't feel like sex, depending on various factors" and I'm like, um, that's not a diagnosis or identity, that's being human! That's EVERYONE EVER!!!! But now, it has a specific label. Like it's not the freaking norm. Crazy. 

[Terabith]

22 minutes ago, Frances said:

Given this, which makes a lot of sense to me, how do people here feel about workplaces requiring or encouraging people to use pronouns in their email signatures? As a worker, what’s the best response if it’s only encouraged, not required?

I actually kinda like the idea of everyone using they/ them pronouns.  I mean, obviously, I find it respectful to use the pronouns that people prefer, and I don't really see that as a permanent thing that has to be a big deal.  I was way cooler with my kid changing their pronouns than choosing X for their gender marker on their driver's license, honestly.  

But really, listing pronouns in email signatures seems like a practical good for everyone.  

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I actually kinda like the idea of everyone using they/ them pronouns.

I still wish the horse wasn't out of the barn on having a new singular neutral pronoun. Being able to differentiate whether you're talking about the individual they or the plural they is frequently useful for clarity and not having that too frequently leads me to need to use their name in place of a pronoun for clarity's sake. I think a ze/zem type solution would have been really useful.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Given this, which makes a lot of sense to me, how do people here feel about workplaces requiring or encouraging people to use pronouns in their email signatures? As a worker, what’s the best response if it’s only encouraged, not required?

I feel that in the workplace, not only is there no need for me to draw extra attention to my sex, doing so is likely to disadvantage me. Sexism is still a problem in the workplace; it hasn't disappeared. Women are still entitled to act in their own best interests. 

If required, I would remind my boss that besides the whole stereotype threat going on in having to blare out one's sex in every email, not every person struggling with gender identity issues is ready or willing to declare. 

Basically, it's pinkwashing nonsense. Easy corporate nod to diversity that costs nothing. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, livetoread said:

It's possible the persistence is caused by the social transition, but it's also possible that those more likely to persist are more likely to choose to socially transition. You can't randomly assign social transition to tease that out, so I think any conclusions are iffy.

Is the goal to have kids not be trans and instead gay if at all possible? If there are suggestions of that coming through the research (not pointing at that research - just in general), then I can see why there is some bristling. Maybe more of the people who came out as gay in earlier times actually would have been trans if that was more of a socially acceptable option. Having said that, I do recognize the medical issues associated with treating trans people and know there can be physical repercussions that aren't present in other non-cis/straight orientations, so if those can be avoided and mental health still preserved (big if) then I can see the point there. There is so much we still don't know yet.

I have a lesbian kid. The medical intervention she needs to be lesbian is zero. 

When people pushed me to affirm my desister, the medical interventions on offer included puberty blockers, cross sex hormones for life, genital surgery, facial surgery. 

Of course I'd prefer a desisted kid to a trans kid. It's not moral - it's the very natural desire to see one's children healthy in their bodies. 

There's no comparison, ime. 

My desister at the time was struggling with his bisexuality - sure, if he'd undergone all the above, he'd feel socially more comfortable being seen with a guy. What an indictment on society! Let's change society, not our children's bodies. 

(Whistleblowers at the Tavistock - long standing gender clinic in the UK - raised concerns re homophobia being part of some presentations. It's been known forever that child dysphorics transitioning are mostly gay - males attracted to males.)

It's not 'bristling'. It's seeing homophobia making a resurgence and being mad as hell about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LMD]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

Expressing any doubt at all that a teen is trans makes you transphobic here.  Transphobic people don’t deserve to be listened to.

Our state law was literally changed last year. I wasn't kidding when I said Dmmetler's response could see her facing jail time here now - up to 10 years and a $218088.00 fine.

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, LMD said:

Our state law was literally changed last year. I wasn't kidding when I said Dmmetler's response could see her facing jail time here now - up to 10 years and a $218088.00 fine.

 

Only good thing about being in NSW. Psychotherapy for dysphoria not yet illegal. 

 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have a lesbian kid. The medical intervention she needs to be lesbian is zero. 

When people pushed me to affirm my desister, the medical interventions on offer included puberty blockers, cross sex hormones for life, genital surgery, facial surgery. 

Of course I'd prefer a desisted kid to a trans kid. It's not moral - it's the very natural desire to see one's children healthy in their bodies. 

There's no comparison, ime. 

My desister at the time was struggling with his bisexuality - sure, if he'd undergone all the above, he'd feel socially more comfortable being seen with a guy. What an indictment on society! Let's change society, not our children's bodies. 

(Whistleblowers at the Tavistock - long standing gender clinic in the UK - raised concerns re homophobia being part of some presentations. It's been known forever that child dysphorics transitioning are mostly gay - males attracted to males.)

It's not 'bristling'. It's seeing homophobia making a resurgence and being mad as hell about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 It isn't even just homosexuality.  It is the idiotic view that men like to watch sports and women watch Hallmark channel.  Men like heavy metal and women like sappy rock.  Men hate to shop and women love to shop.  Men like to do things like woodworking and women knit.  And I know so many people who defy these and many other so-called truths.  Guys who like Hallmark channel movies.  Guys who like shopping.  Guys who like sappy rock.  Guys who knit.  Women who woodwork and hate to shop.  And on and on and on.  

And I was reading a magazine article in our denominational magazine about  how if you don't like pink, and you were born female, maybe you are really a male-- what????  And I also think that characteristics that I don't like sappy stories, and am very analytical,  would have probably made some people today try to convince me to be a male. No, I am just an analytical, non pink loving, love mysteries, female.  

And yes, my horror is at the body changes that hormones and operations do in children.  I don't care what adults do.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, TravelingChris said:

 It isn't even just homosexuality.  It is the idiotic view that men like to watch sports and women watch Hallmark channel.  Men like heavy metal and women like sappy rock.  Men hate to shop and women love to shop.  Men like to do things like woodworking and women knit.  And I know so many people who defy these and many other so-called truths.  Guys who like Hallmark channel movies.  Guys who like shopping.  Guys who like sappy rock.  Guys who knit.  Women who woodwork and hate to shop.  And on and on and on.  

And I was reading a magazine article in our denominational magazine about  how if you don't like pink, and you were born female, maybe you are really a male-- what????  And I also think that characteristics that I don't like sappy stories, and am very analytical,  would have probably made some people today try to convince me to be a male. No, I am just an analytical, non pink loving, love mysteries, female.  

And yes, my horror is at the body changes that hormones and operations do in children.  I don't care what adults do.

Yes. 

I think people find it very hard to accept that some of us reject a lot of this because we think it is regressive. 

 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

 how do people here feel about workplaces requiring or encouraging people to use pronouns in their email signatures? As a worker, what’s the best response if it’s only encouraged, not required?

I had conversations with my very dear friend who identifies as non-binary about this, and as a result I am including my pronouns in my signature (even though I have a traditionally female name and use she/her, so hadn't considered it necessary, and it is not required at my institution).
I do it for two reasons:
1. it normalizes stating one's pronouns and thus makes it easier for people whose pronouns do not match their presentation or name to state theirs. When I introduce myself with my pronouns on the first day of class, I often have students approach me afterwards and tell me what theirs are. (Btw, the practice to go around the room and have everybody state their pronouns is no longer recommended since it puts people on the spot who might prefer not to publicly share.).
2. It signals (especially in a very conservative area) that I am a safe person for LGBTQ folks. Including pronouns has become shorthand for "this person is not a homophobic bigot" (yes, I am aware that pronouns and homophobia have nothing to do with one another - but that's just how it has culturally evolved.)

I work with adults. It is not my business to judge whether they should or should not have (socially or medically) transitioned. It is my job to make them feel welcome in my classroom - and, apparently, being upfront with my pronouns contributes to that.
I will also advocate for students and gently point out to my colleagues when they are misgendering someone. Because, again, I am neither their parent nor their doctor, and I do not get to have an opinion on their gender identity issues. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by regentrude

[Frances]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I had conversations with my very dear friend who identifies as non-binary about this, and as a result I am including my pronouns in my signature (even though I have a traditionally female name and use she/her, so hadn't considered it necessary, and it is not required at my institution).
I do it for two reasons:
1. it normalizes stating one's pronouns and thus makes it easier for people whose pronouns do not match their presentation or name to state theirs. When I introduce myself with my pronouns on the first day of class, I often have students approach me afterwards and tell me what theirs are. (Btw, the practice to go around the room and have everybody state their pronouns is no longer recommended since it puts people on the spot who might prefer not to publicly share.).
2. It signals (especially in a very conservative area) that I am a safe person for LGBTQ folks. Including pronouns has become shorthand for "this person is not a homophobic bigot" (yes, I am aware that pronouns and homophobia have nothing to do with one another - but that's just how it has culturally evolved.)

I work with adults. It is not my business to judge whether they should or should not have (socially or medically) transitioned. It is my job to make them feel welcome in my classroom - and, apparently, being upfront with my pronouns contributes to that.
I will also advocate for students and gently point out to my colleagues when they are misgendering someone. Because, again, I am neither their parent nor their doctor, and I do not get to have an opinion on their gender identity issues. 

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Do you think #2 is only true in conservative areas or everywhere? I don’t live or work in a conservative area and my son is gay. So if that’s universally or even generally true, I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to think I’m a homophobic bigot.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Do you think #2 is only true in conservative areas or everywhere? I don’t live or work in a conservative area and my son is gay. So if that’s universally or even generally true, I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to think I’m a homophobic bigot.

I have no idea. I could imagine that in some areas, it's not a big deal to be gay, and folks don't have to go out of their way to signal that they are allies. (In the rural Midwest, sadly not so much).
Why don't you ask your son and his friends how they perceive things?

[Frances]

59 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

 It isn't even just homosexuality.  It is the idiotic view that men like to watch sports and women watch Hallmark channel.  Men like heavy metal and women like sappy rock.  Men hate to shop and women love to shop.  Men like to do things like woodworking and women knit.  And I know so many people who defy these and many other so-called truths.  Guys who like Hallmark channel movies.  Guys who like shopping.  Guys who like sappy rock.  Guys who knit.  Women who woodwork and hate to shop.  And on and on and on.  

And I was reading a magazine article in our denominational magazine about  how if you don't like pink, and you were born female, maybe you are really a male-- what????  And I also think that characteristics that I don't like sappy stories, and am very analytical,  would have probably made some people today try to convince me to be a male. No, I am just an analytical, non pink loving, love mysteries, female.  

And yes, my horror is at the body changes that hormones and operations do in children.  I don't care what adults do.

At my last visit to my eye doctor, he made some sexist remark about women loving to shop and spend money. He seemed shocked when I told him it was exactly the opposite in my family. I didn’t even comment on the fact that he was sharing a stereotype, but he was still left sputtering about his wife and daughters. I basically chalked it up to his age, as he’s older than I am.

[Frances]

21 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I have no idea. I could imagine that in some areas, it's not a big deal to be gay, and folks don't have to go out of their way to signal that they are allies. (In the rural Midwest, sadly not so much).
Why don't you ask your son and his friends how they perceive things?

I have. They would be completely fine with people not using pronouns in signatures. His partner is also a racial minority, and they are definitely more moderate to right leaning when it comes to their view on such matters. For them at least, being gay is just part of who they are, not their identity. I once asked them if they prefer the term Hispanic or Latino, and they both just chuckled. His partner said he would actually prefer brown, even though technically he is both Hispanic and Latino.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Frances

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

IFor them at least, being gay is just part of who they are, not part of their identity. 

I'm confused by this.  My identity is made up of all the things I am.  I don't see how something could be part of one, and not part of the other.  Am I using the term wrong?