article by trans woman concerned about peer pressure to be trans

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Queer vs- gay, lesbian, bi, or trans or even non gendered- which I see as being asexual or maybe bisexual.

Identifying as non-gendered (agender) has nothing to do with a lack of sexual attraction ( asexual) or with being attracted to both sexes (bisexual). 

 

[SKL]

I've never been as confused as I now am about what a boy/girl even is, according to the popular voices of today.

IMObservation, "non-binary" is taken as a safe space by kids feeling the pressure.

And "asexual" similarly, for teens who don't yet have notable sexual attractions.

Gosh, kids, just be yourselves, express what makes you you, regardless of gender stereotypes.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Queer vs- gay, lesbian, bi, or trans or even non gendered- which I see as being asexual or maybe bisexual.

You might think of queer as an umbrella term. It can encompass any of (or any combination of) the LGBT+ identities, or stand alone. In modern, American parlance it isn’t typically a slur any longer and is widely used by “those people” (ahem) who identify as such. Of course some people still hear it as derogatory so it’s best just to honor the wishes of the person who either identifies as queer or who prefers a different word. 
 

I'm not sure where your confusion lies— what it is you need “explained”. Some people are straight, others gay, other bi, other asexual, others queer…some people fit into tidy boxes, some don’t. Queer is often used as a stand alone by those who don't. 
 

Gender is a completely different conversation from sexuality, but regardless it isn’t up to *you* to “see* anything. People are who they are and it’s up to you to honor that. It’d be weird for you for someone to decide to purposefully misgendered you repeatedly just cause they “feel” a certain way, wouldn’t it? 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

54 minutes ago, MEmama said:

 

I'm not sure where your confusion lies— what it is you need “explained”. Some people are straight, others gay, other bi, other asexual, others queer…some people fit into tidy boxes, some don’t. Queer is often used as a stand alone by those who don't. 
 

Gender is a completely different conversation from sexuality, but regardless it isn’t up to *you* to “see* anything. People are who they are and it’s up to you to honor that. It’d be weird for you for someone to decide to purposefully misgendered you repeatedly just cause they “feel” a certain way, wouldn’t it? 

 

I think having curiosity as to what is driving a new phenomenon, and trying to understand it through discourse is something to be encouraged, even when someone isn't quite up to par with the present terminology.  Honoring someone's expression of identity is not incompatible with skepticism about the premise of gender identity.

 

[SanDiegoMom]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I've never been as confused as I now am about what a boy/girl even is, according to the popular voices of today.

IMObservation, "non-binary" is taken as a safe space by kids feeling the pressure.

And "asexual" similarly, for teens who don't yet have notable sexual attractions.

Gosh, kids, just be yourselves, express what makes you you, regardless of gender stereotypes.

I have to agree with this.  I understand there are times when we are searching for our identity, especially in the teenage years. But focusing your identity in your sexuality or gender seems so limiting.  I mean, I have a very low sex drive -- am I asexual? I can feel attracted to women -- am I bisexual? I despise typical representations of women in media and prefer to dress in very nondescript easy to match clothes so I don't need to think about them at all.  Am I non-binary?   All of these things are true and have fluctuated more or less over time at different points in my life.  How much of our roles (boxes) are based in stereotypes? At the end of the day I myself am just a meat sack walking around, interacting with strangers or friends, trying to be a good person and a calm and steady presence in my family's life. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Joker2 said:

ETA: I’ve also been reading through this doctor’s interviews, articles, and social media and I don’t think she’s saying no treatment for minors either. So, I’m really confused. Most posting here, on either side of the issue, seem to agree with her about better therapy and in take procedures. That would be the caution suggested. She’s not saying no medical treatment for minors who are determined to need it.

Right. I think the point is that this needs to be happening and largely isn't. Your concern about kids not being allowed medical treatment isn't the thing that is *actually happening* whereas kids being medically transitioned without proper therapy and looking at the underlying causes *is* the thing that is mostly happening. Therefore, the concern here is lying with addressing the part of this that is currently problematic, not the part that isn't.

But we're still mostly stuck back at the point of the majority of trans-allies being unwilling to even consider that we have a problem with the current trend and the way it is being treated and that perhaps things have swung too far with the immediate affirmation approach. But there are many doctors in the field who are seeing that and saying that. And honestly, I don't see how being unwilling to confront that problem makes anyone an ally.

[1234]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Right. I think the point is that this needs to be happening and largely isn't. Your concern about kids not being allowed medical treatment isn't the thing that is *actually happening* whereas kids being medically transitioned without proper therapy and looking at the underlying causes *is* the thing that is mostly happening. Therefore, the concern here is lying with addressing the part of this that is currently problematic, not the part that isn't.

But we're still mostly stuck back at the point of the majority of trans-allies being unwilling to even consider that we have a problem with the current trend and the way it is being treated and that perhaps things have swung too far with the immediate affirmation approach. But there are many doctors in the field who are seeing that and saying that. And honestly, I don't see how being unwilling to confront that problem makes anyone an ally.

Many states are now trying to actually make it happen, though. It’s happening because of voices like those here on this board who think kids should have no intervention until adulthood. My state introduced a bill this month to make it happen so it is a legitimate concern. Seems like there will probably be pushback from all sides until the all or nothing talk stops (and I do understand that type of talk is from both sides).

[SanDiegoMom]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

But we're still mostly stuck back at the point of the majority of trans-allies being unwilling to even consider that we have a problem with the current trend and the way it is being treated and that perhaps things have swung too far with the immediate affirmation approach. But there are many doctors in the field who are seeing that and saying that. And honestly, I don't see how being unwilling to confront that problem makes anyone an ally.

Especially now there is an increasing amount of detransitioners who were harmed by affirmation only, and they are experiencing more severe dysphoria with their medicalized body not matching their original gender that they have re- aligned with. 
 

it goes back to your earlier point about the circularity of the diagnosis. Gender is an identity that should be affirmed, but it must be medicalized,  it’s not a disorder but it requires intervention, however when the intervention is wrong…. Crickets. 

[SanDiegoMom]

2 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Many states are now trying to actually make it happen, though. It’s happening because of voices like those here on this board who think kids should have no intervention until adulthood. My state introduced a bill this month to make it happen so it is a legitimate concern. Seems like there will probably be pushback from all sides until the all or nothing talk stops (and I do understand that type of talk is from both sides).

It’s frustrating that it has become such a political issue, and it’s frustrating to see it play out across a health system that is so fragmented and profit driven. For me personally, I would prefer not having interventions available to teens over what I see happening now - opportunistic doctors and fearful or disinterested therapists who affirm anyone that walks in their door.  If the interventions were rare and initiated with proper safeguarding and oversight, then I personally (and what is my opinion worth really) wouldn’t feel as strongly about medicalizing minors. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Joker2 said:

Many states are now trying to actually make it happen, though. It’s happening because of voices like those here on this board who think kids should have no intervention until adulthood. My state introduced a bill this month to make it happen so it is a legitimate concern. Seems like there will probably be pushback from all sides until the all or nothing talk stops (and I do understand that type of talk is from both sides).

Right. But again, in twenty other states, it is ALREADY the law that people, including kids, are being jumped directly to medical intervention. It's not like both concerns can't be addressed (banning medical treatment and banning therapy), but the fact is that it's the affirmation only part that is currently actual law, and not just a concern people have. There are currently kids  having serious medical procedures that can't be reversed that they don't need to have and that a fair number will regret. Some will remain happy about it (though we literally do not know the long term results of some of them), but all of them matter.

[1234]

1 minute ago, SanDiegoMom said:

It’s frustrating that it has become such a political issue, and it’s frustrating to see it play out across a health system that is so fragmented and profit driven. For me personally, I would prefer not having interventions available to teens over what I see happening now - opportunistic doctors and fearful or disinterested therapists who affirm anyone that walks in their door.  If the interventions were rare and initiated with proper safeguarding and oversight, then I personally (and what is my opinion worth really) wouldn’t feel as strongly about medicalizing minors. 

It’s not even just medicalizing, though. Aren’t you one who has spoken out against even socially transitioning? That’s part of what I mean by this all or nothing talk. That’s all my son did until he was 18. It wasn’t planned that way, but he didn’t come out to us until 16 and he did two years of therapy before moving to hormones. Being able to socially transition is what kept him sane and in school (he graduates this May as a double major with a 4.0!). There needs to be options for these kids and there will continue to be pushback if all we hear is you believe nothing but therapy should be available to them until they’re adults. 

[SanDiegoMom]

Just now, Joker2 said:

It’s not even just medicalizing, though. Aren’t you one who has spoken out against even socially transitioning? That’s part of what I mean by this all or nothing talk. That’s all my son did until he was 18. It wasn’t planned that way, but he didn’t come out to us until 16 and he did two years of therapy before moving to hormones. Being able to socially transition is what kept him sane and in school (he graduates this May as a double major with a 4.0!). There needs to be options for these kids and there will continue to be pushback if all we hear is you believe nothing but therapy should be available to them until they’re adults. 

I did speak against socially transitioning - I do not mean it as an either/or, though-  I do not think it should never be done. I think that the current feeling is that it is something very easy to do when just exploring - like trying new hair colors or changing the way you dress to reflect your new interests. I feel it is a more weighty intervention and it just needs to be understood as such.  Not that it shouldn’t happen, just that it should be rarer than it is currently being promoted, as if it is consequence free.

Personally I am against younger kids socially transitioning. And with caution and oversight for older kids. 

For us, our developmental pediatrician suggested social transition after one meeting with us, having very little experience with gender dysphoria.  My son’s therapist suggested it to us with more time spent with my son, but still probably around 1 hour a week, twice a month, over zoom, for a few months.

My son loves school, is making friends, has multiple clubs, sleeps and eats well, hangs out with us all day long joking and laughing. We have worked tirelessly to get to this point - and understand how much a cross country move during a pandemic, virtual high school after homeschooling six years, and integrating into a 2400 person high school has affected him. The idea that socially transitioning would fix his problems, when it was apparent to us the biggest problems were academic pressure (placed by us), loneliness, and anxiety from constant change (ASD) was short sighted and speaks to the issue of therapists (and pediatricians) with little gender dysphoria experience trying to treat patients. She didn’t seem to have a lot of familiarity with ASD either. It was mostly our fault, and the fault of a dearth of  qualified mental health therapists. 

[1234]

11 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I did speak against socially transitioning - I do not mean it as an either/or, though-  I do not think it should never be done. I think that the current feeling is that it is something very easy to do when just exploring - like trying new hair colors or changing the way you dress to reflect your new interests. I feel it is a more weighty intervention and it just needs to be understood as such.  Not that it shouldn’t happen, just that it should be rarer than it is currently being promoted, as if it is consequence free.

Personally I am against younger kids socially transitioning. And with caution and oversight for older kids. 

For us, our developmental pediatrician suggested social transition after one meeting with us, having very little experience with gender dysphoria.  My son’s therapist suggested it to us with more time spent with my son, but still probably around 1 hour a week, twice a month, over zoom, for a few months.

My son loves school, is making friends, has multiple clubs, sleeps and eats well, hangs out with us all day long joking and laughing. We have worked tirelessly to get to this point - and understand how much a cross country move during a pandemic, virtual high school after homeschooling six years, and integrating into a 2400 person high school has affected him. The idea that socially transitioning would fix his problems, when it was apparent to us the biggest problems were academic pressure (placed by us), loneliness, and anxiety from constant change (ASD) was short sighted and speaks to the issue of therapists (and pediatricians) with little gender dysphoria experience trying to treat patients. She didn’t seem to have a lot of familiarity with ASD either. It was mostly our fault, and the fault of a dearth of  qualified mental health therapists. 

Easy access to good mental health care needs to happen, not just for these kids but across the board. Our experience was completely different and I think of our therapist as family almost at this point. None of would have gotten through those years without her. 
 

ETA: Also, our socially transitioning experience happened very slowly. It wasn’t all at once. After ds was hospitalized and came out, our therapist eased us into using a different name and pronoun just at home. That continued for months (through the end of one school year and all of the summer). There was a very noticeable difference with Ds during those months and that’s when he quit all anxiety/depression meds. When his Junior year started, he socially transitioned at school/with friends and then the rest of our families were last. And our therapist let us know every emotion we were feeling was normal. I spent several sessions with her crying just trying to utter the words, “my son”. She never pushed or said I was wrong to struggle like some here have mentioned. I really do wish everyone had access to better mental health care.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Joker2

[SanDiegoMom]

9 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Easy access to good mental health care needs to happen, not just for these kids but across the board. Our experience was completely different and I think of our therapist as family almost at this point. None of would have gotten through those years without her. 

That makes me so happy to hear. ❤️  So glad you had someone you could trust! 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that the main trouble with these kinds of discussion is that the conventional wisdom is based almost if not completely entirely on the experiences of grownups who are trans.  They have informed society that if they had been able to talk freely about this sooner, transition sooner, act and dress the way they wanted to sooner, things would have been so much better for them.  And that they always felt this way, or always since around puberty, or as far back as they can remember.  That having these experiences questioned has been and sometimes is extremely painful.  And, generally speaking, I believe them and I believe this.  

But that does not apply to everyone that is currently considering this identity, and that is where things get complicated.  How do you distinguish between the first case and the latter?  Right now the criteria in many places is basically that someone is willing to say that they have felt this way for a year or more, and that’s it.  That is well known online, so that’s what kids who have developed this conviction and think that transitioning is both a panacea and NBD are coached to say to accomplish what they believe they want.  That criteria is inadequate and so the debate should be, how do we appropriately support the range of those who have this inclination?  But instead, in much of society and indeed in much of the therapy community, polarized discussion with screaming epithets and fully absolute rules for all is the norm.  

Edited January 10, 2022 by Carol in Cal.

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, Joker2 said:

Many states are now trying to actually make it happen, though. It’s happening because of voices like those here on this board who think kids should have no intervention until adulthood. My state introduced a bill this month to make it happen so it is a legitimate concern. Seems like there will probably be pushback from all sides until the all or nothing talk stops (and I do understand that type of talk is from both sides).

Not true.

I think children and teens with GD deserve quality therapeutic support, and that the persisters, as they move closer towards adulthood, deserve evidence based interventions, monitoring and care. 

That's not all or nothing. 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think that the main trouble with these kinds of discussion is that the conventional wisdom is based almost if not completely entirely on the experiences of grownups who are trans.  They have informed society that if they had been able to talk freely about this sooner, transition sooner, act and dress the way they wanted to sooner, things would have been so much better for them.  And that they always felt this way, or always since around puberty, or as far back as they can remember.  That having these experiences questioned has been and sometimes is extremely painful.  And, generally speaking, I believe them and I believe this.  

But that does not apply to everyone that is currently considering this identity, and that is where things get complicated.  How do you distinguish between the first case and the latter?  Right now the criteria in many places is basically that someone is willing to say that they have felt this way for a year or more, and that’s it.  That is well known online, so that’s what kids who have developed this conviction and think that transitioning is both a panacea and NBD are coached to say to accomplish what they believe they want.  That criteria is inadequate and so the debate should be, how do we appropriately support the range of those who have this inclination?  But instead, in much of society and indeed in much of the therapy community, polarized discussion with screaming epithets and fully absolute rules for all is the norm.  

I think the criteria used to diagnose GD is both easy to game and based on stereotypes.

It tends, overwhelmingly, to capture gender non-conformity, which is not a disorder and does not require treatment of any kind. 

 

 

 

[goldberry]

On 1/10/2022 at 12:51 AM, Melissa Louise said:

Can we now stop with the detours?! I'm starting to feel it's deliberate misdirection. 

 

Sorry, I have to laugh here... have you never been on a thread before?  I'm starting to feel like your need "stop the detours" is a deliberate attempt to control the conversation.  😉   Maybe you should consider why you would impute bad motives to everyone simply doing what is ALWAYS done on a thread. 😄 

[KSera]

3 hours ago, goldberry said:

Sorry, I have to laugh here... have you never been on a thread before?  I'm starting to feel like your need "stop the detours" is a deliberate attempt to control the conversation.  

I agree detours are just a way of life here, and I can't help taking them myself. I do see the frustration in this case, because there's a serious issue at the heart of this discussion, and few people seem to want to engage with that part of it (thank you @Joker2 in particular for being willing to do so). Obviously, no one is required to participate in any discussion, so that's just fine, but it is hard not to notice.

[Terabith]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

I agree detours are just a way of life here, and I can't help taking them myself. I do see the frustration in this case, because there's a serious issue at the heart of this discussion, and few people seem to want to engage with that part of it (thank you @Joker2 in particular for being willing to do so). Obviously, no one is required to participate in any discussion, so that's just fine, but it is hard not to notice.

Well, and also, WHAT ON EARTH CAN ANY OF US DO?  I mean, I think we all agree that it would be good if kids and adults had access to quality therapy that is neither conversion oriented nor affirmation only, but as parents and individuals, we don't really have the power to make any of that possible.  We all agree there should be more research.  It just feels like staying strictly on the original topic, there's not really much to discuss.  

[ktgrok]

22 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think the criteria used to diagnose GD is both easy to game and based on stereotypes.

It tends, overwhelmingly, to capture gender non-conformity, which is not a disorder and does not require treatment of any kind. 

 

 

 

THIS!  Gender non conformity and gender dysphoria are NOT the same thing, and need to be separated. But middle and high school kids don't always lean towards nuance. 

[Melissa Louise]

41 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

THIS!  Gender non conformity and gender dysphoria are NOT the same thing, and need to be separated. But middle and high school kids don't always lean towards nuance. 

The thing is, the diagnostic tool itself muddles the two concepts, so no wonder teens do. 

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Well, and also, WHAT ON EARTH CAN ANY OF US DO?  I mean, I think we all agree that it would be good if kids and adults had access to quality therapy that is neither conversion oriented nor affirmation only, but as parents and individuals, we don't really have the power to make any of that possible.  We all agree there should be more research.  It just feels like staying strictly on the original topic, there's not really much to discuss.  

I think it's valuable/essential for people to understand where we are in order to end up anywhere different. We ended up where we currently are largely as a result of well-intentioned people doing and supporting what they thought would be best for people experiencing gender dysphoria, and I think it matters for those same people to recognize and call for some brakes when it has started heading in the wrong direction. To at this point throw up our collective hands and say, "oh well, nothing we can do, so we won't even talk about (or even acknowledge) that there's a problem" doesn't strike me as a defensible path. I think if more people are willing to talk about it and not throw anyone who expresses concern under the "transphobic" bus, then things might improve. Right now we have laws preventing better care. I've never known people here in the past to say there's nothing anyone can change about something because there's a law for/against it.

[LMD]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

Well, and also, WHAT ON EARTH CAN ANY OF US DO?  I mean, I think we all agree that it would be good if kids and adults had access to quality therapy that is neither conversion oriented nor affirmation only, but as parents and individuals, we don't really have the power to make any of that possible.  We all agree there should be more research.  It just feels like staying strictly on the original topic, there's not really much to discuss.  

Well, if you want something to do, you could get involved with the group Keep Prisons Single Sex USA

 https://usa.kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons/

Or you could support keeping women's sports single sex 

https://savewomenssports.com/males-in-female-sports-1

Just for a start...

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, LMD said:

Well, if you want something to do, you could get involved with the group Keep Prisons Single Sex USA

 https://usa.kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons/

Or you could support keeping women's sports single sex 

https://savewomenssports.com/males-in-female-sports-1

Just for a start...

I don't think either of those causes would do anything to help young people currently experiencing gender dysphoria to access better, more complete care, though. I think those causes are separate from the specific one being discussed here, of gender clinicians sounding the alarm that our current affirmation-only standard of care has gone too far and is not serving kids well.

[1234]

Not really wanting to start this up again but wanted to leave this here for anyone interested. It came out yesterday.
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20220112/Starting-hormone-treatment-in-adolescence-linked-to-better-mental-health-in-transgender-people.aspx

Also linking from PLOS ONE with more info. 
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261039

Edited January 14, 2022 by Joker2

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/health/transgender-teens-hormones.html

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Joker2 said:

Not really wanting to start this up again but wanted to leave this here for anyone interested. It came out yesterday.
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20220112/Starting-hormone-treatment-in-adolescence-linked-to-better-mental-health-in-transgender-people.aspx

[deleted]

Nevermind. There are issues with this, but I don't feel up to getting into it right now either. It's making me cranky tonight, and I don't need that

Edited January 14, 2022 by KSera

[TravelingChris]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

t's also interesting that they spun increased binge drinking among those who received hormones as a positive sign of increased social behavior. I expect it would have been framed differently had the group who didn't get hormones been the group that showed more binge drinking behavior.

I have never seen anyone else seriously suggest that binge drinking is a positive.  Wow!

[1234]

It actually says,

“In addition, participants who began hormones in early or late adolescence had lower odds of past-month binge drinking and lifetime illicit drug use than those who began hormones in adulthood.” 

And,

“But the researchers found that those who started hormone treatment in adulthood were more likely to engage in binge drinking and use of illicit substances than those who never accessed the treatment.”

The binge drinking was among those who didn’t start until adulthood. The study was about better mental health in those who received treatment in adolescence and not having to wait until adulthood.

ETA: I can see where there are things to do differently that could help but it’s ridiculous for others not to see that treatment in some of these youth is necessary. For some, early treatment will make a huge difference. 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Joker2

[1234]

It also most definitely didn’t spin the binge drinking in those adults as a positive and stated how it actually raises awareness for an increased need for substance abuse counseling in those transgender individuals. 

[1234]

11 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I have never seen anyone else seriously suggest that binge drinking is a positive.  Wow!

You should read it for yourself because it actually didn’t do that.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

it’s ridiculous for others not to see that treatment in some of these youth is necessary. For some, early treatment will make a huge difference. 

 

Absolutely. But it's just as ridiculous to not also address the very serious side effects and life impacts at the same time as talking about the benefits. There are few other medications with this kind of safety and side effect profile that would be prescribed without exhausting other options first. Chemotherapy is about the only thing I can think of.

[1234]

Just now, KSera said:

Absolutely. But it's just as ridiculous to not also address the very serious side effects and life impacts at the same time as talking about the benefits. There are few other medications with this kind of safety and side effect profile that would be prescribed without exhausting other options first. Chemotherapy is about the only thing I can think of.

I don’t see any of us here not addressing it. Seriously, many of us have said we see areas to improve. My issue is, and will always be, the idea that no minor should have access to these treatments. We exhausted all possibilities and my son needed more. We’re not the only ones. My sharing that study was to share how there are positives to treatment in adolescence. And there are positives. Right now it seems laws are very all or nothing so I feel a need to keep pointing out those positives. 

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I don’t see any of us here not addressing it. Seriously, many of us have said we see areas to improve. My issue is, and will always be, the idea that no minor should have access to these treatments. We exhausted all possibilities and my son needed more. We’re not the only ones. My sharing that study was to share how there are positives to treatment in adolescence. And there are positives. Right now it seems laws are very all or nothing so I feel a need to keep pointing out those positives. 

There aren't any laws preventing that right now though. My statement was based on the linked article containing a good deal of commentary talking only about potential benefits of hormone treatment without any mention of the significant side effects, which does not give a full or balanced perspective. It's a huge deal, and this makes it sounds like it's more equivalent to taking an antidepressant. If there were no downsides, the current approach might not be as big a deal.

[1234]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

There aren't any laws preventing that right now though. My statement was based on the linked article containing a good deal of commentary talking only about potential benefits of hormone treatment without any mention of the significant side effects, which does not give a full or balanced perspective. It's a huge deal, and this makes it sounds like it's more equivalent to taking an antidepressant. If there were no downsides, the current approach might not be as big a deal.

Many states are trying though. So, you’ll listen to my arguments when they start passing the laws? I have little doubt it’s coming.

This study was the largest one done so far of transgender adults in the US. It shouldn’t be ignored just as the OP’s original article shouldn’t be ignored. We definitely need to proceed with caution. Caution at labeling all of these kids as trans and caution at labeling none of these kids as trans. Many will need treatments prior to adulthood and they should get it. 

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Many states are trying though. So, you’ll listen to my arguments when they start passing the laws? I have little doubt it’s coming.

This study was the largest one done so far of transgender adults in the US. It shouldn’t be ignored just as the OP’s original article shouldn’t be ignored. We definitely need to proceed with caution. Caution at labeling all of these kids as trans and caution at labeling none of these kids as trans. Many will need treatments prior to adulthood and they should get it. 

I haven't argued that though. I said above that "absolutely" some will benefit from treatment. I feel like a broken record, but I still don't see why there should be equal emphasis on a problem that is feared, but not happening, vs something that is actively happening on a large scale AND is codified into law AND has irreversible repurcussions.

As an aside, the study population is not the same as the population most affected by the current trend. The study was completed with people who were adults in 2015, and we know well that the population transitioning now differs significantly from how the population has long looked until very recently (ie, now it is primarily adolescent girls transitioning to boys vs natal boys who felt they were girls since early childhood, which is what most of the adult transgender population is).

[1234]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

I haven't argued that though. I said above that "absolutely" some will benefit from treatment.

Then I’m obviously not sharing for your benefit (not said rudely, just facts). There are others who have said differently. I also feel like a broken record because you keep quoting me when we seem to agree that some need treatment prior to adulthood and that we also need better therapy. I honestly don’t think there’s anything left to say between us on this topic at the moment. 

[KSera]

nt

Edited January 14, 2022 by KSera

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

[deleted]

Nevermind. There are issues with this, but I don't feel up to getting into it right now either. It's making me cranky tonight, and I don't need that

I'm not up to reading it either but I believe one problem with the study is that it excluded those who went on to detransition.  So kinda stacking the study. 

Anyway, I feel for those still caught up in the current contagion. I hope it settles soon, and I hope we finally get to grips with these adolescent dynamics. 

 

 

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not up to reading it either but I believe one problem with the study is that it excluded those who went on to detransition.  So kinda stacking the study. 

Yeah, it’s stacked in a number of ways. It did not properly control for mental health variables. Those with poor mental health would have been much more likely to be in the control group, which was those who wanted hormone treatment and were denied. Mental health status was likely a major reason people in that group were denied hormones. They tried to put a control in for that, but that’s a hard one to overcome. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, it’s stacked in a number of ways. It did not properly control for mental health variables. Those with poor mental health would have been much more likely to be in the control group, which was those who wanted hormone treatment and were denied. Mental health status was likely a major reason people in that group were denied hormones. They tried to put a control in for that, but that’s a hard one to overcome. 

Right. 

I kind of just give up, you know? We're out of it, thankfully, through fighting  for treatment and a good deal of luck.

I want everyone to have the same luck, but it's been wearing - incredibly so. 

Take a break if you need it x

[SKL]

So I learned some new words here, "desisters" and "persisters."  If I understand correctly, desisters are individuals who, as adults, no longer identify as trans.  So these individuals would not have been included in a study tracking trans adults to see how adolescent treatment impacted them, right?  Doesn't that leave out half of the story?  The article (which, to me, seems biased) did not even mention the existence of such people.

I also think that adults who have gone that far in transitioning are more likely to be in a community that supports that, which is going to make life seem better as far as the survey questions go.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

 If I understand correctly, desisters are individuals who, as adults, no longer identify as trans.  So these individuals would not have been included in a study tracking trans adults to see how adolescent treatment impacted them, right?  Doesn't that leave out half of the story?  The article (which, to me, seems biased) did not even mention the existence of such people.

Correct. And desisters are very undercounted as it is, because the few studies that exist only included people who underwent medical transition (surgery or hormones) and then later desisted, not people who socially transitioned and then desisted (and medicalization decrease the chances of desisting, for many obvious reasons). They are also undercounted because some of the research is based on whether people returned to their gender care doctors to tell them they had detransitioned, but most detransitioners will tell you they never said a thing to their gender care provider. It’s definitely a group of people that is totally missed by the small amount of research that has been done so far. 

[Melissa Louise]

Two more issues with the study linked above. 

1. Recall bias

2. Conflict of interest ( study sponsored by Pfizer and Arbor Pharmaceuticals). 

[Charity]

On 1/7/2022 at 6:42 PM, ktgrok said:

I am okay with social transitioning, along with therapy, as a child. I'm okay with people who pursue more than that as an adult. I'm on the fence on hormones, but at this point it isn't something I have to have an opinion on. 

that said, I'm VERY concerned that kids my daughter's age are getting the message that if you are not a "girly girl" into pink and sparkles and totally boy crazy you must be trans. Or at the very least, a "demi girl". I'm hearing this from various kids moving in totally different social circles right now, all middle school aged, and it doesn't make me happy. I feel like there is suddenly no acceptance of girls who say, are not into make up or like baggy clothing, or boys who want to wear nail polish, or whatever. And if at age 10 or 11 you are not interested in a romantic relationship you are labled asexual. No...you are a child. You are not supposed to be looking for a relationship! That's normal! 

It feels like a lot of "normal" has been turned into conditions and problems. 

Absolutely agree with you👍👍👍