article by trans woman concerned about peer pressure to be trans

[ktgrok]

https://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/are-we-seeing-a-phenomenon-of-trans-youth-social-contagion/?fbclid=IwAR3uxWr4Oh64wRmk73uNjeNs2O1fhyYRKPziuX1NkSaBD1MKuwWaAOitWi8

She's concerned that pandemic stress in particular is helping fuel this. 

[EKS]

It was going on before the pandemic.  The book Irreversible Damage (which was written prepandemic) discusses this phenomenon in detail.

ETA:  Before anyone tells me that the book is "transphobic," it isn't.  And before anyone tells me that I am transphobic, note that I would have easily been diagnosed as trans as a child.

Edited January 7, 2022 by EKS

[1234]

I’m only going to reply once and then not come back to this thread because I know too well how they go here, but I’m linking a Twitter thread for anyone interested in my own thoughts.

I’ll also say that I don’t think non trans kids are more valuable than trans kids, and I don’t feel the answer to any of this is to deny trans kids affirming care. Forcing my own trans child to wait until an adult would have killed him - not an exaggeration. He’s now a healthy, happy, still trans adult. I would have been one of those parents who didn’t think he showed any signs until he came out and I was wrong. I can clearly see now that wasn’t the truth. 
 

https://twitter.com/mavenofmayhem/status/1478773646327836676?s=21

[Tanaqui]

That's a lot of words but not much data. "Some" influencers may be saying this or that - how many? How popular are they compared to other ones? How influential are they, really? Parents have increasingly contacted her - how many more? What's the increase?

The only bit of data she has, the factoid from the gallup poll, says nothing specifically about trans (or nonbinary, agender, genderqueer) kids, but only about the percentage of that population that identifies as any of L G B T or Q. Which is interesting, but given that she's specifically talking about T, it's effectively meaningless. If you actually click the link, you find that nowhere near the 1 in 6 ratio of people in that age cohort identify as transgender, but only about 2%, which is 1 in 50, and only a slight increase over millennials. (It is nearly twice the percentage of Generation X, but when you're dealing with small numbers like 1 and 2% it's hard to tell if that's a trend or a fluke.) Nearly all the others who identify as LGBTQ identify as bisexual. That's an area which has shown a real increase in the younger crowd.

And you know what? If somebody is willing to be mendacious about something so easily checked, I don't believe any of the rest of it. Oh sure, she didn't actually *say* "One in six of this age group identifies as transgender!" but she sure wrote that surrounding paragraph in order to create that impression - and I do not believe, based on the writing throughout the article, that she's simply ignorant and cannot write well either.

She knew what she was doing. She was, for whatever reason, trying to create an impression that the percentage of youths who identify as transgender is significantly higher than she knows it is by looking at that same data she cites. She was only hoping that people wouldn't follow through and check her misleading statement.

Well, I checked. This sort of thing is exactly why I always check.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Tanaqui

[KSera]

I’m not up for reading an article on this topic right now, but if anyone thinks there hasn’t been a social contagion element surrounding this in some social circles (and especially driven by online activity), then it may not be happening in theirs, but it certainly is for many other people. At  this point, that is something many gender clinics will confirm as well. That’s not a commentary about what to do in response, but if someone doesn’t think that’s actually a thing, they’re not very connected to the issue. 
 

My apologies for replying without engaging with the article first. Things are far more complicated dealing with real, actual kids than just theoretically having an opinion on the topic. 

[Tanaqui]

It's worth noting that a little bit more research shows that she's been calling this "trendy" since at least 2018.

Now, to be fair, I suppose something could've been trendy in 2018 and then become trendier during the pandemic. I don't trust her statements, and I think that there is more excessive fear-mongering about transgender teens than any actual transgender teens (which I'll define as "any teenager who comes out as trans") but it's certainly plausible that the actual data could back up that there was a noticeable increase by 2018 and then it's increased more. But it's really weird that we get this whole editorial about so many transgender kids which explicitly links a perceived increase to the pandemic and yet she doesn't mention that she had all those same concerns pre-pandemic.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that's deliberately misleading, unlike the gallup poll thing which absolutely was, but it's not improving my opinion of her assessment here.

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

It was going on before the pandemic.  The book Irreversible Damage (which was written prepandemic) discusses this phenomenon in detail.

ETA:  Before anyone tells me that the book is "transphobic," it isn't.  And before anyone tells me that I am transphobic, note that I would have easily been diagnosed as trans as a child.

 It may be a great book, but I went to your link,  saw the people who endorsed it, and Wow! I consider them some of the worst of the worst as to the things they've written and said online. Can't judge a book by its cover, but by the endorsers???

Edited January 7, 2022 by Idalou
Spelling

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Idalou said:

 It may be a great book, but I went to your link,  saw the people who endorsed it, and Wow! I consider them some of the worst of the worst as to the things they've written and said online. Can't judge a book by its cover, but by the endorsers???

It’s a huge problem to me that these waters are currently so muddied by the particular mix of people speaking out. There’s a large contingent of untrustworthy voices who also tend to go for conspiracy theories and moral outrage kind of stuff who are really making it difficult for anyone to listen to the other big swath of people who are legitimately concerned about the large and ever increasing numbers of young people receiving permanent and often risky medical treatments that even gender providers are starting to pull back from, as they see where this is going. I really wish those voices weren’t making this more difficult to have honest discussions about. 

[ktgrok]

Ok, so..I'm going to ask...do people think that this trans woman has an anti trans agenda herself? I mean, that's possible, but I had hoped that since she herself is trans, she would be a source to look to regarding thoughts on this without having to wade through anti trans bias. Perhaps I was wrong?

[Lecka]

23 minutes ago, Idalou said:

 It may be a great book, but I went to your link,  saw the people who endorsed it, and Wow! I consider them some of the worst of the worst as to the things they've written and said online. Can't judge a book by its cover, but by the endorsers???

I used to be more this way, but phonics is favored by conservative.  If I just went by people I agree with in other ways, and their opinions on reading instruction, I would not have been willing to try things that turned out to be needed by 2 of my kids in order for them to learn to read. 

It shouldn't be a conservative/liberal issue, and yet it is somehow.  

[Lecka]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, so..I'm going to ask...do people think that this trans woman has an anti trans agenda herself? I mean, that's possible, but I had hoped that since she herself is trans, she would be a source to look to regarding thoughts on this without having to wade through anti trans bias. Perhaps I was wrong?

This is addressed in the twitter thread linked by Joker 2.  On that twitter thread it says in the commenter's opinion, yes trans people can also have anti-trans bias because they are also raised in a culture that is biased.  

[KSera]

31 minutes ago, Lecka said:

This is addressed in the twitter thread linked by Joker 2.  On that twitter thread it says in the commenter's opinion, yes trans people can also have anti-trans bias because they are also raised in a culture that is biased.  

I agree that they can. I also see a whole lot of disregarding of the actual lived and professional experiences of people currently in the field or who are trans themselves, often by people who only have tangential experience with this.

[goldberry]

Isn't it possible to believe both things, that there can be social pressure impacting kids negatively as well as actual trans kids that need treatment?  I don't see how those things are mutually exclusive.

[Carol in Cal.]

16 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Isn't it possible to believe both things, that there can be social pressure impacting kids negatively as well as actual trans kids that need treatment?  I don't see how those things are mutually exclusive.

Based on what I see locally and personal knowledge of specific friends and acquaintances, I am confident that both things are occurring.

[Lecka]

I think it’s really hard when things are political.  Then some people are coming in and agreeing or disagreeing based on unrelated things, or mainly interested in certain things to make a point.  

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, so..I'm going to ask...do people think that this trans woman has an anti trans agenda herself? I mean, that's possible, but I had hoped that since she herself is trans, she would be a source to look to regarding thoughts on this without having to wade through anti trans bias. Perhaps I was wrong?

Self-hating is a very well-known phenomenon. We see it all the time with people in other marginalized groups - you know, the sort of people who maybe they're Black and they make a name for themselves saying that there would be no problems if all those other Black folks just pulled up their pants and worked harder and talked right, or they're Jewish but they go on record as saying that Jews would totally not have problems if they just assimilated harder, or women who talk talk talk about how really rape is super duper rare and date rape isn't a thing and of course there's no sexism but misandry. I'm sure you've heard about some famous person who fits that pattern, always dismissing the general concerns of their particular group despite all the evidence.

Those examples are rather extreme, of course, compared to this particular article, but they do show that, yes, somebody can be a member of a certain group and still have a bias against that group. We're all living in the same culture, we all get the same messaging.

Of course, the bias here might be as simple as assuming that the percentage of people coming out as trans at a certain point in time IS the percentage of the population that is trans. If that number increases, a reason for this must be found.

And that number has increased, there's no doubt about that! Not really by a lot, in absolute terms, but it has increased. My guess - and I'll admit that this is my own bias talking - is that the most likely answer is that about as many people are trans (or anyway, not cisgender) as always, but more of them are willing to come out rather than staying closeted. I'd also guess (anecdata) that most of the increase is in the nonbinary/agender/genderqueer group, that is, people who identify as not a boy/man or girl/woman at all, but as neither or both or in between.

But I don't know if the data supports my opinion. I believe a nonbiased study would back me up, but I don't know. And I'm not willing to mislead people into thinking it does. Man, that's something totally unforgiveable to me.

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Idalou said:

 It may be a great book, but I went to your link,  saw the people who endorsed it, and Wow! I consider them some of the worst of the worst as to the things they've written and said online. Can't judge a book by its cover, but by the endorsers???

I recommend reading it before passing judgment.

[Idalou]

24 minutes ago, EKS said:

I recommend reading it before passing judgment.

Not thank you. I just spent way too long reading her Twitter feed. Now I see exactly why the likes of Prager and Shapiro endorsed her book. Sorry, those are people I don't need to read to expand my understanding, there has to be less toxic non political authors. She is not one of them.

[EKS]

15 minutes ago, Idalou said:

I just spent way too long reading her Twitter feed.

I am talking about what she actually says in her book.  Her twitter feed is not her book.

[Tanaqui]

Do you imagine that her twitter feed does not give us all a good idea of her thoughts and beliefs? Do you think that her book can be free of bias even if her thoughts and beliefs, as seen in her twitter feed, are not?

In order to read the book we'd all first have to get the book and then spend some time. I'm a fast reader, and I'd still take a few hours to read the whole thing - more if I want to jot down annotations and laboriously check every single citation to make sure that she's telling the truth about them.

If all I want to do is figure out if the woman's got a general bias, checking out her twitter feed and the sort of people who praise her book really is enough.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Idalou]

11 minutes ago, EKS said:

I am talking about what she actually says in her book.  Her twitter feed is not her book.

She is the utmost of political. There has to be authors without a political agenda. This is not her Twitter feed...  The Left is winning the gender war. 

Ya, no thanks

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/community-family/we-must-win-the-gender-war

Edited January 7, 2022 by Idalou

[Melissa Louise]

There's literally no point me saying anything at all, is there?

Because people will be along to call transphobe stat. 

Ppl who won't listen to natal women might like to look up Dr Erica Anderson and see what Anderson ( transwoman, trans doctor, WPATH committee) has had to say recently. 

God, this topic makes me furious. MY OWN KID'S GENDER CLINIC is concerned about contagion + homophobia being part of the increasing numbers of presentations. 

But sure, call transphobe 

@ktgrok yes, people will accuse a transwoman of being anti trans, especially if she is what is charmingly called tru scum ( believes that body dysphoria + gatekeeping needed before transition).

Don't think she is the first transwoman or transman to speak out either. Plenty do.

But cis WTM progressives know better than they do, clearly.

Better than pediatric gender clinics in pediatric hospitals. Better than Finland. Better than Sweden. Better than Erica Anderson. Better than every single desister speaking up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[annandatje]

4 hours ago, Joker2 said:

I’m only going to reply once and then not come back to this thread because I know too well how they go here, but I’m linking a Twitter thread for anyone interested in my own thoughts.

Same here.  It was my primary reason for a years-long absence from the WTM forum. 

I hope your transgender child is doing well.  My child suffered terrible bullying at the parochial school that affects his mental health to this day. 

The school officials immediately denied that any of those "kids from nice families" would be heartlessly cruel to another student.  It was only when I put a keystroke logger on computer that I had evidence to present to school and to one of the bully's parents, who blamed it on a neighbor child.  Yeah, right. 

I was advised by the school's "counselor" to send my child to pray-away-the-gay camp so I assume counselor assumed that my transgender female-to-male child was gay.  Actually my child and others from the local LGBT youth group had been to the pray-away-the-gay camp to protest effects of conversion therapy on LGBT teens.  

Some of my child's tormenters have since reached out to apologize which he has graciously accepted.  I truly hope they teach their own children to behave better than they themselves did.  None of them had the courage to lose any social points by befriending my child.

Joker2, feel free to privately contact me if you ever need to talk with a parent whose child has completed transition and living relatively successful life.

Certain social critics dub controversial ideas, conditions, and things "trendy" as a code-speak putdown.  Do not know if that is true of the author nor am I willing to read enough of the material to confirm.

 

[Melissa Louise]

Ffs. The article is BY Dr Erica Anderson. 

May I humbly suggest ppl look her up? Hint: she's not just 'some transwoman'.

[EKS]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

But cis WTM progressives know better than they do, clearly.

Better than pediatric gender clinics in pediatric hospitals. Better than Finland. Better than Sweden. Better than Erica Anderson. Better than every single desister speaking up. 

This.  Thank you.

[Melissa Louise]

And you know what?

This Labor voting mum is f***ing proud to have a desisted son, who got high quality care from a bright, curious and questioning gender team at a children's hospital. 

I'm proud, every single time I see that his body is whole and healthy, and that his underlying non-dysphoric conditions have been treated.

I'm proud he no longer deals with dysphoria, and understands there are so many ways to be male, to be in a male body, and that nothing about his body is wrong. 

I'm proud he dealt with the homophobia he'd internalized in the culture. 

I'm proud I stood by him and fought for that. 

The haters here can get lost. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

The US is so far behind where the rest of the world is on this issue. You're blind, because you are trapped by your own domestic politics. 

In the rest of the world, it's not a right/left issue. It's an issue of avoiding yet another medical scandal in the future. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m not up for reading an article on this topic right now, but if anyone thinks there hasn’t been a social contagion element surrounding this in some social circles (and especially driven by online activity), then it may not be happening in theirs, but it certainly is for many other people. At  this point, that is something many gender clinics will confirm as well. That’s not a commentary about what to do in response, but if someone doesn’t think that’s actually a thing, they’re not very connected to the issue. 
 

My apologies for replying without engaging with the article first. Things are far more complicated dealing with real, actual kids than just theoretically having an opinion on the topic. 

Its Dr Erica Anderson in the article. She's been pretty vocal recently. 

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, annandatje said:

Joker2, feel free to privately contact me if you ever need to talk with a parent whose child has completed transition and living relatively successful life.

Certain social critics dub controversial ideas, conditions, and things "trendy" as a code-speak putdown.  Do not know if that is true of the author nor am I willing to read enough of the material to confirm.

 

I'm very glad that both your child and Joker's are doing well. Very truly. I think it's problematic to think that means the experience of people whose kids aren't doing well isn't valid and shouldn't be talked about though. People deserve to be able to talk about it and look for answers and not be put down for that. The "trendy" aspect is based on statistics showing the rapid trend of explosion of particularly female to male trandgender adolescents since the 2010s and especially so since 2015.

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The US is so far behind where the rest of the world is on this issue. You're blind, because you are trapped by your own domestic politics. 

In the rest of the world, it's not a right/left issue. It's an issue of avoiding yet another medical scandal in the future. 

I very much agree that the completely screwed up current state of US politics has rendered the US unable to have factual rather than politically ideological conversations on this topic (and that goes for so many topics beyond this one as well, but, like Covid, this is one that shouldn't have anything to do with politics).

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Its Dr Erica Anderson in the article. She's been pretty vocal recently. 

I did end up reading it awhile after posting it. This is an emotionally laborious topic, so sometimes I don't feel up to wading in and didn't at the time I first opened the thread.

[1234]

4 hours ago, goldberry said:

Isn't it possible to believe both things, that there can be social pressure impacting kids negatively as well as actual trans kids that need treatment?  I don't see how those things are mutually exclusive.

They’re not mutually exclusive but what’s usually said when these pieces come out is how no minor should be allowed puberty blockers, hormones, or surgery(completely agree with this one). There was a thread on this board not long ago about how calling trans kids by their preferred names and pronouns was harmful so not even social transitioning should be allowed for minors according to some. What treatment should they be allowed? What seems to be said is many are worried there are too many trans kids now and the only answer is no decent treatment for any to spare the truly non trans kids who might slip through the cracks, which is harmful to those who are trans.

We definitely need better access to mental health care but that’s across the board for everyone. I do think there needs to be a discussion on how to distinguish between those truly trans and those who aren’t but I have no answers on how to do so. I do know the answer isn’t to stop treating all of these kids with things that work for many.

This isn’t really directed at you, goldberry, but a jumping off point for how I’m feeling about it at the moment. I’m so tired of it all.

 

[LMD]

 The question isn't what treatments they should be allowed, the question is what is the scientific basis underpinning the huge jump in trans identification (4000+% in girls) and what are helpful, appropriate and proportional treatments. 

Welcome to getting shut-down for asking questions, Kt. 

[SKL]

I agree and have witnessed the contagion aspect that she speaks of.

Not sure what to do about it.  I keep hoping it will go the way of most teen fads.  Of course when people are telling our kids they should feel suicidal if they aren't sure they're a girl because they don't like dresses ... it can be a bit more troubling.

As for a person who is trans not wanting every kid to think they are trans too ... this is not that different from other things we hear/say often ...

• Don't call yourself "OCD" just because you like things neat; people with actual OCD are not helped by that.
• Don't use words like "abuse" to describe relatively minor annoyances; it downplays actual abuse.
• etc....

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

They’re not mutually exclusive but what’s usually said when these pieces come out is how no minor should be allowed puberty blockers, hormones, or surgery(completely agree with this one). There was a thread on this board not long ago about how calling trans kids by their preferred names and pronouns was harmful so not even social transitioning should be allowed for minors according to some. What treatment should they be allowed? What seems to be said is many are worried there are too many trans kids now and the only answer is no decent treatment for any to spare the truly non trans kids who might slip through the cracks, which is harmful to those who are trans.

We definitely need better access to mental health care but that’s across the board for everyone. I do think there needs to be a discussion on how to distinguish between those truly trans and those who aren’t but I have no answers on how to do so. I do know the answer isn’t to stop treating all of these kids with things that work for many.

This isn’t really directed at you, goldberry, but a jumping off point for how I’m feeling about it at the moment. I’m so tired of it all.

 

But if it weren't for the contagion phenomenon she speaks of, the whole discussion of "what to do about it" would be different.  It's one thing to treat an actual serious issue, another to treat half of the teen population as if they have that issue.

[1234]

16 minutes ago, LMD said:

 The question isn't what treatments they should be allowed, the question is what is the scientific basis underpinning the huge jump in trans identification (4000+% in girls) and what are helpful, appropriate and proportional treatments. 

Welcome to getting shut-down for asking questions, Kt. 

So, no treatment for any trans kids until this is figured out? Asking honestly and want to know what you mean. 

[Melissa Louise]

 

There are children with childhood onset gender dysphoria. Watchful waiting is the recommended treatment because most of this cohort desist after puberty, the majority of whom are gay or lesbian. 

Blockers disrupt the process of reconciliation with body and sexuality. There is currently no way to predict the minority of persisters. 

There are teens with sudden onset dysphoria. They all deserve psychotherapy to resolve cultural and family dysfunction and co-morbidities. 

Surgical and hormonal transition is an appropriate treatment for adults whose childhood sex dysphoria did not remit and has not responded to other interventions. 

It does not change their sex; it helps them relate to their own bodies with less distress. 

 

[Terabith]

26 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

They’re not mutually exclusive but what’s usually said when these pieces come out is how no minor should be allowed puberty blockers, hormones, or surgery(completely agree with this one). There was a thread on this board not long ago about how calling trans kids by their preferred names and pronouns was harmful so not even social transitioning should be allowed for minors according to some. What treatment should they be allowed? What seems to be said is many are worried there are too many trans kids now and the only answer is no decent treatment for any to spare the truly non trans kids who might slip through the cracks, which is harmful to those who are trans.

We definitely need better access to mental health care but that’s across the board for everyone. I do think there needs to be a discussion on how to distinguish between those truly trans and those who aren’t but I have no answers on how to do so. I do know the answer isn’t to stop treating all of these kids with things that work for many.

This isn’t really directed at you, goldberry, but a jumping off point for how I’m feeling about it at the moment. I’m so tired of it all.

 

I'm 100% for using preferred names and pronouns.  I am totally fine with puberty blockers, and my kids have friends for whom hormones and surgery in the teen years was 100% the right move.  These were kids who had persistent, intense dysphoria that had started at a pretty young age.  

I believe there is absolutely, 100% a need for trans affirming healthcare for children and teens, and simultaneously I also have questions and concerns about the exponential rise in especially people assigned female at birth transitioning.  The fact that 70% of the kids at my kid's school are trans/ nonbinary kinda makes me wonder about a bit of social contagion for my kid when my kid didn't show any signs of dysphoria prior to age 15.  And there really is absolutely no gender therapy to be had.  I thought we had one, but it turns out when the kid says, "I just want a letter for surgery," that's what they get.  

We did a legal name change.  We bought a binder.  I am worried about surgery, but we will support it.  I am praying that it resolves the dysphoria.  I just worry that a kid who also coincidentally developed tics when around people with tic disorders might be susceptible, and surgery is a huge, permanent change that I have questions about (but not strong feelings opposing).  Is it transphobic that I would like it to be entered into with more individualized, in depth evaluation than is remotely possible for us to get?

My college roommate is trans.  My kid's godmother is trans.  We have all sorts of trans adults in our life who I am proud of and love and support.  I was very careful when my kids were little to say things like, "Most of the time, people who are born with vaginas are women."  I've been advocating for trans rights since the 1990's.  

But I still have concerns and questions about the rapid increase in this phenomena.  Both things can be true.  

It's entirely possible that there's not really an increase, and that the incidence has always been whatever it currently is and people just feel more free to come out, and that would be awesome!  But it seems like an area that should be investigated and researched.  

[1234]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I'm 100% for using preferred names and pronouns.  I am totally fine with puberty blockers, and my kids have friends for whom hormones and surgery in the teen years was 100% the right move.  These were kids who had persistent, intense dysphoria that had started at a pretty young age.  

I believe there is absolutely, 100% a need for trans affirming healthcare for children and teens, and simultaneously I also have questions and concerns about the exponential rise in especially people assigned female at birth transitioning.  The fact that 70% of the kids at my kid's school are trans/ nonbinary kinda makes me wonder about a bit of social contagion for my kid when my kid didn't show any signs of dysphoria prior to age 15.  And there really is absolutely no gender therapy to be had.  I thought we had one, but it turns out when the kid says, "I just want a letter for surgery," that's what they get.  

We did a legal name change.  We bought a binder.  I am worried about surgery, but we will support it.  I am praying that it resolves the dysphoria.  I just worry that a kid who also coincidentally developed tics when around people with tic disorders might be susceptible, and surgery is a huge, permanent change that I have questions about (but not strong feelings opposing).  Is it transphobic that I would like it to be entered into with more individualized, in depth evaluation than is remotely possible for us to get?

My college roommate is trans.  My kid's godmother is trans.  We have all sorts of trans adults in our life who I am proud of and love and support.  I was very careful when my kids were little to say things like, "Most of the time, people who are born with vaginas are women."  I've been advocating for trans rights since the 1990's.  

But I still have concerns and questions about the rapid increase in this phenomena.  Both things can be true.  

It's entirely possible that there's not really an increase, and that the incidence has always been whatever it currently is and people just feel more free to come out, and that would be awesome!  But it seems like an area that should be investigated and researched.  

I think we’re both at the same place. I do think there are things to be researched regarding how many are coming out. Where I have issues is with those who want no treatments for minors other than therapy. Ds had years and years of therapy but it was socially transitioning that made the difference. He’s now decided, at 22, not to pursue surgery at this time but is still on hormones. He’s also legally changed his name and gender markers. I’m ok with how things have worked out for him, but can also realize not everyone has had the same level of care and I know that’s a problem. I really hope things work out well for your dc.

[KSera]

I think a good starting point is proper exploratory care and therapy for kids with gender dysphoria. Currently, most practitioners are afraid to do anything other than instant affirmation as they are directed to do. They are told that to explore the underlying causes of the dysphoria and try to resolve them is akin to conversion therapy, which makes no sense because the opposite could be argued just as strongly (especially for all the kids who would be considered gay if they hadn't/didn't transisition to the opposite gender). I'm a science person, and currently there is little to no science guiding the narrative of what causes this phenomenon, and that is really problematic to me. If not for the prevalence of medicalization, most of this really wouldn't matter, but medicalization has some serious ramifications, and people are frequently far too cavalier about that given those ramifications--many of which the kids undertaking really can't comprehend at the age that they undertake them.

[1234]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think a good starting point is proper exploratory care and therapy for kids with gender dysphoria. Currently, most practitioners are afraid to do anything other than instant affirmation as they are directed to do. They are told that to explore the underlying causes of the dysphoria and try to resolve them is akin to conversion therapy, which makes no sense because the opposite could be argued just as strongly (especially for all the kids who would be considered gay if they hadn't/didn't transisition to the opposite gender). I'm a science person, and currently there is little to no science guiding the narrative of what causes this phenomenon, and that is really problematic to me. If not for the prevalence of medicalization, most of this really wouldn't matter, but medicalization has some serious ramifications, and people are frequently far too cavalier about that given those ramifications--many of which the kids undertaking really can't comprehend at the age that they undertake them.

I totally agree that the mental health care for all of these kids needs to be overhauled and better. I also completely agree that therapy shouldn’t start with instant affirmation and drugs. I just disagree with those that feel drugs and social transitioning shouldn’t be a part of the process for minors at all because there are those who truly need those things. 

[Melissa Louise]

I don't know how anyone can be for blockers, frankly. 

Besides the fact that, as above, for the eventual post-puberty desisters, they act as a gay conversion therapy, there are major health implications of the medications used, particularly for bones.

They also interfere with success of eventual surgery, if required in adulthood, particularly for boys. 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[LMD]

34 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

So, no treatment for any trans kids until this is figured out? Asking honestly and want to know what you mean. 

I would think that giving treatment that is evidence based, appropriate and proportionate would be the goal. Especially for kids.

The discussion of those treatments being accessed by minors should come after their effectiveness is proven, and I'm sorry but it's far from a settled question. 

 

[Lecka]

I do think it’s a problem when progressives aren’t allowed to say something is a problem, and then the only voices are conservative voices.  
 

I have had some things, one of them phonics, where everything about me should make me be a “whole language” person, and I could have gone through life that way without my own personal experiences.  
 

I think it’s better now, but several years ago, you couldn’t FIND an “approved” voice expressing concern about whole language.  There WASN’T one.  
 

I think it takes time for that to happen.  
 

So just because today, right now, there is not an approved progressive voice, just does not MEAN very much.  
 

A progressive voice would not be exactly the same as a conservative voice, but I think there is room to see some reason in conservative voices without agreeing 100% and while actively disagreeing with some conclusions.  
 

But if it’s so contaminated that a progressive can’t dissent at all, without being assumed to also follow a lot of really horrible thought processes, it just shuts down the possibility of dissent.

 

I have had this with phonics vs whole reading, which might not seem so controversial now but I promise it was so controversial.
 

And then another issue close to me, where I have ended up on the “non-approved” side from what I agree with on many other things.  But it’s one of those issues where it’s a big thing to see things a certain way and thing the other way is so wrong.

 

And it is just political!  
 

It is so frustrating.  It makes it very hard to discern what is believable information and what is just political posturing or cant.  

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't know how anyone can be for blockers, frankly. 

Besides the fact that, as above, for the eventual post-puberty desisters, they act as a gay conversion therapy, there are major health implications of the medications used, particularly for bones.

They also interfere with success of eventual surgery, if required in adulthood, particularly for boys. 

 

Blockers pause stuff, to give time to think and mature.  I wish my parents had consented to blockers to me, just because I hit puberty at an incredibly young age, and that had all sorts of ramifications, including stunted height.  

[1234]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

I would think that giving treatment that is evidence based, appropriate and proportionate would be the goal. Especially for kids.

The discussion of those treatments being accessed by minors should come after their effectiveness is proven, and I'm sorry but it's far from a settled question. 

 

I, obviously, don’t agree but thank you for answering. I know these discussions can get really heated (and some of that has been my fault for sure) but I’m honestly trying to understand better where everyone is coming from. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Joker2 said:

They’re not mutually exclusive but what’s usually said when these pieces come out is how no minor should be allowed puberty blockers, hormones, or surgery(completely agree with this one). There was a thread on this board not long ago about how calling trans kids by their preferred names and pronouns was harmful so not even social transitioning should be allowed for minors according to some. What treatment should they be allowed? What seems to be said is many are worried there are too many trans kids now and the only answer is no decent treatment for any to spare the truly non trans kids who might slip through the cracks, which is harmful to those who are trans.

We definitely need better access to mental health care but that’s across the board for everyone. I do think there needs to be a discussion on how to distinguish between those truly trans and those who aren’t but I have no answers on how to do so. I do know the answer isn’t to stop treating all of these kids with things that work for many.

This isn’t really directed at you, goldberry, but a jumping off point for how I’m feeling about it at the moment. I’m so tired of it all.

 

I am okay with social transitioning, along with therapy, as a child. I'm okay with people who pursue more than that as an adult. I'm on the fence on hormones, but at this point it isn't something I have to have an opinion on. 

that said, I'm VERY concerned that kids my daughter's age are getting the message that if you are not a "girly girl" into pink and sparkles and totally boy crazy you must be trans. Or at the very least, a "demi girl". I'm hearing this from various kids moving in totally different social circles right now, all middle school aged, and it doesn't make me happy. I feel like there is suddenly no acceptance of girls who say, are not into make up or like baggy clothing, or boys who want to wear nail polish, or whatever. And if at age 10 or 11 you are not interested in a romantic relationship you are labled asexual. No...you are a child. You are not supposed to be looking for a relationship! That's normal! 

It feels like a lot of "normal" has been turned into conditions and problems. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Blockers pause stuff, to give time to think and mature.  I wish my parents had consented to blockers to me, just because I hit puberty at an incredibly young age, and that had all sorts of ramifications, including stunted height.  

 

Blockers stop the eventual desisters from going through desistance. You end up with kids who transition who didn't need to, had watchful waiting been used. It's a major disruption to the body and psyche. 

 

[1234]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I am okay with social transitioning, along with therapy, as a child. I'm okay with people who pursue more than that as an adult. I'm on the fence on hormones, but at this point it isn't something I have to have an opinion on. 

that said, I'm VERY concerned that kids my daughter's age are getting the message that if you are not a "girly girl" into pink and sparkles and totally boy crazy you must be trans. Or at the very least, a "demi girl". I'm hearing this from various kids moving in totally different social circles right now, all middle school aged, and it doesn't make me happy. I feel like there is suddenly no acceptance of girls who say, are not into make up or like baggy clothing, or boys who want to wear nail polish, or whatever. And if at age 10 or 11 you are not interested in a romantic relationship you are labled asexual. No...you are a child. You are not supposed to be looking for a relationship! That's normal! 

It feels like a lot of "normal" has been turned into conditions and problems. 

When I hear these things, it is weird. My trans Ds pushes gender roles all the time. He’s trans but has long hair, sometimes wears make up, sometimes paints his nails, wears a lot of pink and purple, the list goes on. Him being transgender has absolutely nothing to do with any of that so it’s always weird to hear it.

ETA: This also reminded me of talking with youngest around the time Ds came out. I told them it was ok to like boys, girls, both, or none. They told me if that had to choose then (at 13), it would be girls because boys their age were dumb. 🤪

Edited January 8, 2022 by Joker2

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

Blockers stop the eventual desisters from going through desistance. You end up with kids who transition who didn't need to, had watchful waiting been used. It's a major disruption to the body and psyche. 

 

I'm really okay with 5-12 year olds having their puberty paused.  Going through puberty at age six has all sorts of issues, too, to body and psyche.  

[catz]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Currently, most practitioners are afraid to do anything other than instant affirmation as they are directed to do. 

Are they really though?  Is this widespread?  Is there data on this?  

We live in a LGBTQIA friendly area.  My kids have had trans friends for many years and I know families who have walked this path with their kids.  My daughter id's as Lesbian as an aside.  And yes, a lot of kids seem to experiment with these labels.  But I've also seen a number of them presenting pretty main stream het as they approach adult to post college years.  The kids we know with gender dysphoria who have transitioned and keep walking that path for many years seem to have mental health care deep in the process, it's been slow and methodical, and I know kids who've changed direction and been supported through that process.  And I know 2 kids who I think it would have been devastating if they had not been allowed to start blockers pretty early.  

I rarely dive into these discussions.  I am not in mental health, I don't have particular expertise in gender dysphoria, and these thread quickly turn south.  If I want to learn more I talk to families I know or read the latest from actual experts.  But just from the families I know, they are exhausted by the judgment and the 2nd guessing all the time.  I trust most parents are trying to do the best they can with the kid in front of them and the best information available to them at a given time.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Terabith said:

I'm really okay with 5-12 year olds having their puberty paused.  Going through puberty at age six has all sorts of issues, too, to body and psyche.  

Puberty is not an illness or a disease. Blocking it should be an absolute last resort. 

I'm not ok with kids who would eventually grow up to 'just' be gender non-conforming gay people having that chance taken away from them by having their puberty interfered with.