How do you define gender?

[SKL]

Not sure about the porn thing, but I could connect to the idea that developing girls sometimes find puberty disgusting.  It was an unwelcome stage to me, and it took a number of years before I really felt comfortable with my body.  I would never have thought this was unnatural or diagnosable though.

So maybe, like there is anxiety and Anxiety, there might be dysphoria and Dysphoria?  A high percent if not 100% have experienced the lowercase version, because humans do that.  But it doesn't mean that everyone who has ever been anxious has Anxiety, nor does everyone who ever felt uncomfortable in his/her body have Dysphoria.

The other thing is ... if girls find the developing female body gross, how does it follow that they would find the developing male body less gross?  I can't see that at all.

[maize]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Not sure about the porn thing, but I could connect to the idea that developing girls sometimes find puberty disgusting.  It was an unwelcome stage to me, and it took a number of years before I really felt comfortable with my body.  I would never have thought this was unnatural or diagnosable though.

So maybe, like there is anxiety and Anxiety, there might be dysphoria and Dysphoria?  A high percent if not 100% have experienced the lowercase version, because humans do that.  But it doesn't mean that everyone who has ever been anxious has Anxiety, nor does everyone who ever felt uncomfortable in his/her body have Dysphoria.

The other thing is ... if girls find the developing female body gross, how does it follow that they would find the developing male body less gross?  I can't see that at all.

A child's body is in many ways more like an adult male than an adult female body. Children don't have breasts or curvy hips, and neither children nor men menstruate.

Breast development can be physically painful (it was for me), periods are messy and often come with painful cramps, females but not males develop more fat deposits during adolescence, and this in a society where fat is viewed as shameful.

Add in unwanted sexual attention and often sexual harassment triggered by the development of female secondary sex traits and it seems quite reasonable that many females find the adolescent period profoundly uncomfortable.

[Catwoman]

Just now, maize said:

A child's body is in many ways more like an adult male than an adult female body. Children don't have breasts or curvy hips, and neither children nor men menstruate.

Breast development can be physically painful (it was for me), periods are messy and often come with painful cramps, females but not males develop more fat deposits during adolescence, and this in a society where fat is viewed as shameful.

Add in unwanted sexual attention and often sexual harassment triggered by the development of female secondary sex traits and it seems quite reasonable that many females find the adolescent period profoundly uncomfortable.

I can understand that, and I think it’s very common for girls to feel that way. 

My problem is trying to understand how that translates into girls wanting to change their gender to male as a response to that. It’s not like changing their name to Bob and their pronoun to “he” or “they” is going to be like waving a magic wand and take away the physical changes their bodies are going through. 

I find it extremely troubling that so many teen girls are developing gender issues. What are we, as a society, doing wrong that is making this so prevalent? Why are we not letting our girls know that the things they are feeling are normal, and that they will pass in time for almost all of them?

Why would we tell our girls that the way to deal with those feelings is by denying that they are, in fact, girls, and adopting an entirely new persona? It would seem that changing their gender would only end up adding a whole new set of problems and psychological issues for them... and in the meantime, their breasts are still developing and they are still getting their periods. So where is the benefit? 

A girl can be self-conscious about her developing body without going so far as to start living as a boy. She can wear baggy or androgynous clothing and still identify as female. But now, if she does that, are people going to keep asking her if she’s male or asking for her pronoun? That doesn’t seem helpful; it seems distressing and confusing.

I don’t pretend to know the answers to these things. And as I have said before, none of this applies to the kids who are actually transgender. That’s entirely different.

[Frances]

15 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I always felt fully included when people said Hey guys.

Even with a group of all women, I strongly prefer it to Hey Ladies, which literally makes me cringe whenever I hear it.

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re fact-based population averages...

vs social expectations-driven stereotypes

 

Nine pages in, and I'm truly flummoxed how anyone can argue that BOTH of these are real.  Yes, uterus and menstruation and breastfeeding exist, stemming directly from sex organs; as do population averages re height and shape, within which there are individuals who are very tall compared to the female average or very slight compared to the male.  Some individuals never bear children, whether by choice or circumstance or infertility, and thus never experience the biological experiences of pregnancy or breastfeeding.

Yes, culture-based expectations exist on roles and looks and behavior. Some individuals are fully comfortable within those expectations, other individuals chafe at specific *aspects or limitations* of those expectations-- clothing/makeup/manicures, how women are expected to behave in bed, career, compensation, roles within household/family -- of some of those expectations (FWIW, that's where I land personally). Other individuals really experience a pretty deep revulsion against the entire package.

I feel like that much is directly verifiable, empirically?  There ARE averages that can be measured. There ARE individuals whose testimony about their own personal struggles against social expectations/limitations we have heard right on this thread.

______

 

So nine pages in, I am discerning two issues that are more subjective or exploratory.

1. Whether "gender" is useful language to convey that bucket of cultural/social expectations that do not derive directly from sex organs; and
2. Whether individuals who experience a pretty deep revulsion against that whole package of cultural/social expectations (clothing/makeup/manicures, how women are expected to behave in bed, career, compensation, roles within household/family) are, in this moment, processing that into a determination to reshape their physical bodies rather than try to reshape societal expectations.

 

Nine pages in, I don't think (?) that any of us who've pushed back on the language of "gender" to label ~~clothing/makeup/manicures, how women are expected to behave in bed, career, compensation, roles within household/family~~ deny that such social and cultural expectations do exist.  Only that "gender" as a word isn't useful, or the correct terminology, to describe that bucket of stuff.  

Is that correct?

 

I'm much more interested in the second question. I have been frankly astonished, over the last five years, at *how many* young people experience ~~some version~~ of dysphoria. The sheer numbers. Unless there's some explanation for what is different, in this moment, that is causal to that distress... it suggests that a STAGGERING NUMBER of people must have felt a staggering weight of un-languaged in-actionable distress in all prior generations.

Which perhaps is true.

I definitely felt not woman enough as a tiny girl who hit puberty late. If I had been offered hormones or breast augmentation at 15-16, I would have taken it in a heartbeat to feel normal. I also struggled with disordered eating once I did finally start to fill out (medication for migraines that caused weight gain and slowed my metabolism). So not the same dysphoria, but there was definitely some dysphoria there. And, like most of the teens I know who struggle with their body image now, quite a bit of depression, anxiety and general angst.

 

For me, college was transformative. I found my own person, my own voice and became much happier with myself. It also probably didn’t hurt that hormones stabilized, too. I am really hoping that is the case for the teens I know-and why I tell them that they should avoid doing anything permanent until they finish college:

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, Frances said:

Even with a group of all women, I strongly prefer it to Hey Ladies, which literally makes me cringe whenever I hear it.

I’ll answer to pretty much anything and it takes a lot to offend me if no offense was intended, but I have always thought of, “Hey Guys” to be a universal greeting for everyone in a group. 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

I’ll answer to pretty much anything and it takes a lot to offend me if no offense was intended, but I have always thought of, “Hey Guys” to be a universal greeting for everyone in a group. 

And call me misogynist, but I preferred "hey guys" to the "hey women" that one of my dorm-mates always used.  😛

[Catwoman]

Just now, SKL said:

And call me misogynist, but I preferred "hey guys" to the "hey women" that one of my dorm-mates always used.  😛

I agree! “Hey women” just sounds weird!

[Pam in CT]

re bodily alteration to feel "normal" in a prior age, had the option been available

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I definitely felt not woman enough as a tiny girl who hit puberty late. If I had been offered hormones or breast augmentation at 15-16, I would have taken it in a heartbeat to feel normal. I also struggled with disordered eating once I did finally start to fill out (medication for migraines that caused weight gain and slowed my metabolism). So not the same dysphoria, but there was definitely some dysphoria there. And, like most of the teens I know who struggle with their body image now, quite a bit of depression, anxiety and general angst.

For me, college was transformative. I found my own person, my own voice and became much happier with myself. It also probably didn’t hurt that hormones stabilized, too. I am really hoping that is the case for the teens I know-and why I tell them that they should avoid doing anything permanent until they finish college:

Just to clarify this: in your case, the body-shaping direction you would have availed of, had the option been available to you, would have been hormonal treatment/surgery to enable you to present as *more female* rather than more male or androgynous?

[Pam in CT]

Y'all, folks.  Y'all.  It is a glorious, wondrous, all-purpose, grammatically perfect construction.

 

I say this as a person whose entire US-based geography has only ever extended, over nearly 6 decades, between northern NJ and northern NY state.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Y'all, folks.  Y'all.  It is a glorious, wondrous, all-purpose, grammatically perfect construction.

 

I say this as a person whose entire US-based geography has only ever extended, over nearly 6 decades, between northern NJ and northern NY state.

It sounds so charming when Southern people say it. 

When I say it... not so much. 

And when my gravelly voiced NYC-born-and-raised dh says it... oh dear. It’s just not good. It sounds so WRONG. 😜

 

[pinball]

48 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I agree! “Hey women” just sounds weird!

“Hi my little chickies” gets laughs from my friends but I know my peeps...

[pinball]

40 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

It sounds so charming when Southern people say it. 

When I say it... not so much. 

And when my gravelly voiced NYC-born-and-raised dh says it... oh dear. It’s just not good. It sounds so WRONG. 😜

 

I’m picturing something akin to Steve Buscemi saying, “How do you do, fellow kids” LOL

[LucyStoner]

44 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Y'all, folks.  Y'all.  It is a glorious, wondrous, all-purpose, grammatically perfect construction.

 

I say this as a person whose entire US-based geography has only ever extended, over nearly 6 decades, between northern NJ and northern NY state.

My family roots are southern and my mother had a pretty colorful vocabulary.  When I was a child enrolled in speech therapy and school in the PNW, my family’s speech patterns and certain slang was totally teased/shamed out of me.  It was a class thing, with how my mom spoke being seen as a sign of low intelligence (which could not have been further from the truth).  

You can imagine my chagrin decades later to see the same people who looked down on words like y’all when we were school kids adopting them now in the name of inclusivity. I only wish I hadn’t fallen for that nonsense and felt ashamed of how my family talked when I was a kid.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

2 hours ago, maize said:

A child's body is in many ways more like an adult male than an adult female body. Children don't have breasts or curvy hips, and neither children nor men menstruate.

Breast development can be physically painful (it was for me), periods are messy and often come with painful cramps, females but not males develop more fat deposits during adolescence, and this in a society where fat is viewed as shameful.

Add in unwanted sexual attention and often sexual harassment triggered by the development of female secondary sex traits and it seems quite reasonable that many females find the adolescent period profoundly uncomfortable.

This. This so much.

And I'd like to offer the thought that some of the "late" transitioning that many see as inauthentic/based on peer pressure is actually this: an nb child can feel perfectly comfortable in a body that is not that different in form or function from all/other children's bodies (at least not in any way that kids typically see). Once that body changes, dramatically, in an unwelcome manner, they can become deeply uncomfortable with that body - it no longer feels right to them, because it has changed dramatically. They feel like the same person that they always did, but suddenly their body is completely different. This is a real, authentic experience that some people have.

This isn't to say that peer-influenced desire to transition is not real. Just that it isn't the only reason for someone to identify as nb or trans "later" than early childhood.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Chrysalis Academy said:

This. This so much.

And I'd like to offer the thought that some of the "late" transitioning that many see as inauthentic/based on peer pressure is actually this: an nb child can feel perfectly comfortable in a body that is not that different in form or function from all/other children's bodies (at least not in any way that kids typically see). Once that body changes, dramatically, in an unwelcome manner, they can become deeply uncomfortable with that body - it no longer feels right to them, because it has changed dramatically. They feel like the same person that they always did, but suddenly their body is completely different. This is a real, authentic experience that some people have.

This isn't to say that peer-influenced desire to transition is not real. Just that it isn't the only reason for someone to identify as nb or trans "later" than early childhood.

I think you are absolutely right about that. There are certainly kids who identify as nb or trans at later ages, and who will remain that way for life. I think it will ultimately be a very small percentage of these kids, but I certainly don’t want to minimize or deny the fact that some of them are truly nb or trans.

[KSera]

19 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

And as far as sex?  I'd consider that medical information.  It's something that's private.  That you don't ask about. 

How does that work for dating? Is the thought that parts shouldn't matter for that, or that you would figure that part out before it mattered?

18 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I hate the gender neutral loos in my local library. They feel unsafe. Interestingly, in the new build, they were behind a heavy door - since my first visit, that door has always been propped open. Women don't like being behind a heavy, sound-proofed door with stranger males. 

What worked a lot better was more provision - single sex stalls, family room, accessible loo, unisex single room.

Yes to the bolded. I have always been super aware about my circumstances when I visit restrooms, for whatever reason, since I was a young teen. I don't like the ones that are down long back hallways, and I always wonder why they put the women's ones farther away than the men's--is it so that there is no good reason for a man to be down at that end? With gender neutral bathrooms, I would want them to be single person for sure. As it is, if I have to go in a sketchy restroom that seems empty, I have a compulsion to check each stall to be sure first to be sure there is no one lurking 😳.

16 hours ago, regentrude said:

ETA: I can think of situations where I would want to show off my skin and my boobs in an evening gown - but nobody has the right to order a woman to do so if she does not choose. And absolutely not in a professional situation involving a power differential. F that.

I agree with it being ridiculous/wrong for a woman to have to wear a dress if she prefers pants. I didn't interpret evening gown the same way though, though from Faith's follow ups, sounds like she thinks of it the same way. I am not a dress person, but from the dresses I have worn in my life, I have never worn one that showed off my chest in any way. That's not my thing, and I've never worn off the shoulder or strapless or anything like that. So I was picturing a musician's evening gown totally differently--something like a long sleeved black velvet dress. Still shouldn't have to wear it if not desired.

16 hours ago, regentrude said:

Not my experience. It is quite common that girls are expected to do more household chores than boys, that their dress is more scrutinized and restricted, that they have earlier curfews and not the same freedom, that they have tighter restrictions when they want to date....

Really? With kids being raised right now? I haven't seen this in any of my friends, and it's definitely not the case in our family. That's disappointing to hear if that's still common.

15 hours ago, Joker2 said:

Yes! My dh can buy pants anywhere and they fit but I have try multiple times if a new store or brand.

I'm thinking this is more a function of the female body shape than with male sizing being an advantage. I do think the measurement based sizing makes good sense, but if I chose a pair of men's pants with my waist and inseam measurements (which wouldn't be possible to find in an adult men's clothing department), they would definitely not fit my hips. I can't even fit in junior girl's pants for that reason, and I don't think of myself as curvy. I think female bodies are just harder to get a good fit for in structured pants (I have to alter the waist or wear a belt in order for them to fit usually). All this said, I do think it's good to have gender neutral clothing available as well. Particularly from a style standpoint. I just do find mens vs womens helpful from a fit standpoint.

 

15 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Gender-neutral is not neutral if it still based on a man's body being somehow the default norm and women's being some kind of aberration.  I also refer to the book Invisible Women.  The default human is not a 180lb. male, no matter how much that's been the standard for forever.

THIS! My nb kid has a definite male-as-netural default, though they acknowledge one could be non binary and present in a feminine way. For them though, it has meant a masculine aesthetic. It seemed to me that top surgery shouldn't be a necessity for a nb person, as it suggests male as default. But, I think that goes back to wanting a more childlike body. They actually are quite fortunate, as I think they have somehow achieved their goal of being very ambiguous and not clear to identify either way, which is what they wanted. Their small size is the only real tip off, in my opinion.

7 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

 I have really appreciated gender neutral clothing makers like TomboyX that make the styles fit a wide range of bodies, including female curves. 

Thanks for this link! I hadn't heard of it. I love that they make leakproof underwear in boxer styles.

2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm much more interested in the second question. I have been frankly astonished, over the last five years, at *how many* young people experience ~~some version~~ of dysphoria. The sheer numbers. Unless there's some explanation for what is different, in this moment, that is causal to that distress... it suggests that a STAGGERING NUMBER of people must have felt a staggering weight of un-languaged in-actionable distress in all prior generations.

Which perhaps is true.

I think getting at what is different and what that explanation is would be really helpful. I believe there would have been some of this throughout generations, but I really don't believe that it's likely that this represents numbers that were always there and are only just now given language and action. I think this represents a clear change in something.

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

My problem is trying to understand how that translates into girls wanting to change their gender to male as a response to that. It’s not like changing their name to Bob and their pronoun to “he” or “they” is going to be like waving a magic wand and take away the physical changes their bodies are going through.

I think that for many, the name and pronoun change is a prelude to the desired body changes. That is the route that allows them to change their body. My nb kid acknowledged early on that the gender part didn't really matter to them, but it was the way that they would qualify for surgery. Which was true. I think the gender part has now become part of their identity, but initially, it was a path to address the body dysphoria that caused them such distress.

[Dmmetler]

If I had known androgyny was an option, yeah, I would have taken being a sexless “they” over a failure as a woman. Especially if it got me a single stall shower and a chance to change without having to show off my body. I would have been even more abnormal a man than a woman. 

[pinball]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not sure why your dd couldn’t have it both ways — there is no reason you can’t compliment a person for her intelligence and her sense of humor and how great she was at a sport or a hobby, but also frequently tell her how beautiful she is. I agree that focusing only on physical appearance is a bad idea, but hardly ever mentioning it might lead your dd to believe that you’re not complimenting her because she isn’t attractive enough. I’m sure your dd looks lovely a lot more often than on special occasions, so what’s the harm in telling her she looks great in her new outfit on any normal day, or that her new eyeshadow brings out her beautiful eyes, or whatever?

It seems like you feel your mom went too far in one direction, but is it possible that you might be going a bit too far in the other direction?

And honestly, I think it’s sweet that your mom still tells people how beautiful you are. I know you wish she would say smart or capable, but it’s still pretty cool that she loves you and is proud of you, and that she will always view you as her beautiful, perfect daughter. (And she probably also knows how smart and capable you are, and is proud of those things, too; it’s just that she may have been happiest when people complimented her on her looks, so she assumes you feel the same way she does.) If your mom is telling complete strangers how gorgeous you are, she is most likely also bragging to everyone she knows about all of the other great, intelligent, capable things you do, too. Just because she isn’t saying those things in front of you doesn’t mean she’s not annoying everyone else with her stories about how brilliant you are and what a wonderful mom you are, and how you have great new career...and on... and on... and on. 😉 She loves you and she thinks you’re amazing, and she wants everyone else to know it, too!

I agree with this...

some of these issues seem as much like a mismatch of personalities and needs between parent and child personalities as well as generational differences between parent and child.

to try to take it off Quill...imagine an older dad, who himself was raised in the stereotypical “boy” way...rough and tumble, boys don’t cry, you’re the man of the house when I’m away, and it fits him: he likes to wrestle and box and doesn’t cry easily to begin with and wants to take care of his mom and sisters...all a good match between culture and personality of parent and child

...then he has a son who isn’t like that...and the parenting culture has changed...and I’m too lazy to write it all out. LOL

But that boy might grow up to wish his dad had snuggled and read books and told him, *it’s OK to be nervous when I’m not home*...see what I mean?

And what if he had a brother who was just like his dad?

i don’t know. Sometimes our parents just need to be given some slack 

 

 

[Drama Llama]

17 minutes ago, KSera said:

How does that work for dating? Is the thought that parts shouldn't matter for that, or that you would figure that part out before it mattered?

I think that usually there is a lot of sharing of personal information in the dating process.  For example, I don’t think it’s hard to understand that there is information one might share with a potential sexual partner (e.g birth control, or preferred activities) that one might want to control in other contexts.

 

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

Y'all, folks.  Y'all.  It is a glorious, wondrous, all-purpose, grammatically perfect construction.

 

I say this as a person whose entire US-based geography has only ever extended, over nearly 6 decades, between northern NJ and northern NY state.

I hear y'all all the time and can't remember a time when it wasn't a common expression. I've lived my adult life in California, Oregon, and Philadelphia area. I'd say it's not as much used in Philly as other places, maybe.  But I don't hear "youse" a lot while is supposedly the Philly equivalent of y'all. 

Same with guys - it's been a neutral term as far back as I can remember. I can't imagine feeling excluded by the use of it.  

When I check in at work on our team zoom chat at the start of a shift, I say hi/hey.... guys, kids, y'all, gang... all various terms that, as far as I can tell, include everyone. 

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

If I had known androgyny was an option, yeah, I would have taken being a sexless “they” over a failure as a woman. Especially if it got me a single stall shower and a chance to change without having to show off my body. I would have been even more abnormal a man than a woman. 

I’m sorry that I seem to be misunderstanding you, but I’m wondering why you saw yourself as “a failure as a woman.” Did you have anyone to talk to about it, like your mom? It makes me so sad that you were so unhappy, when you probably always looked as good as everyone else. 😞 

[SKL]

Do parents and health teachers not tell pubescent kids that it is normal to go through periods of being uncomfortable with their bodies, including feeling ugly/fat even when they actually aren't ugly/fat?  And that this is temporary?

That's teen hormones.

After I went through that myself & came out the other side, I vowed to tell every related tween all about it before they started experiencing that.

I must make a note to talk to my kids about this again, in case they have lost the message.

Really wish I knew what they were hearing at school.

[regentrude]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

Do parents and health teachers not tell pubescent kids that it is normal to go through periods of being uncomfortable with their bodies, including feeling ugly/fat even when they actually aren't ugly/fat?  And that this is temporary?

That's teen hormones.

Many women are uncomfortable with their bodies way beyond the teen years.

Some never make peace with the fact that there are several days each month where they feel either like raging lunatics or in deep despair, followed by several days where they endure torrential unpredictable bleeding that interferes with their daily activities. 

Does anyone tell the girls " yep, this is how it's going to suck for the next fifty years until you're in menopause"?

I have finished procreating and would gladly have an unsexed body already.

ETA: just to clarify, I generally *like* my body and what it can do; however, I don't experience the aspects related to my female reproductive organs as anything but a nuisance now that they have long served their purpose.

Edited June 27, 2021 by regentrude

[Chrysalis Academy]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Do parents and health teachers not tell pubescent kids that it is normal to go through periods of being uncomfortable with their bodies, including feeling ugly/fat even when they actually aren't ugly/fat?  And that this is temporary?

That's teen hormones.

After I went through that myself & came out the other side, I vowed to tell every related tween all about it before they started experiencing that.

I must make a note to talk to my kids about this again, in case they have lost the message.

Really wish I knew what they were hearing at school.

Yes. Yes, we tell them that. For years. And then, sometimes, we realize that in a given case, it *isn't* temporary. Or "normal." And so we adjust to the new conditions in which we find ourselves.

Again, not trying to suggest that this isn't a normal, temporary condition for most teens. For many it does pass with time and maturity. But just trying to retain space in the conversation for those who don't fit the "normal" pattern. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Many women are uncomfortable with their bodies way beyond the teen years.

Some never make my peace with the fact that there are several days each month where they feel either like raging lunatics or in deep despair, followed by several days where they endure torrential unpredictable bleeding that interferes with their daily activities. 

Does anyone tell the girls " yep, this is how it's going to suck for the next fifty years until you're in menopause"?

I have finished procreating and would gladly have an unsexed body already.

If they are that miserable with their bodies, though, shouldn’t they seek some mental health counseling, as well as speak with their doctors about medications that might alleviate some of their physical and psychological symptoms? 

I would never tell a girl that the next 50 years is going to suck (or that menopause is no picnic, either.) I would try to encourage her to seek treatment for the issues that are troubling her, because being a woman doesn’t have to be a terrible experience.

[regentrude]

Just now, Catwoman said:

If they are that miserable with their bodies, though, shouldn’t they seek some mental health counseling, as well as speak with their doctors about medications that might alleviate some of their physical and psychological symptoms? 

I would never tell a girl that the next 50 years is going to suck (or that menopause is no picnic, either.) I would try to encourage her to seek treatment for the issues that are troubling her, because being a woman doesn’t have to be a terrible experience.

Well, there's bcp that helps somewhat.

But if the underlying message is that female anatomy and physiology is so poorly designed that women need medical intervention to cope with their natural function, that doesn't make being female very appealing. 

[Dmmetler]

42 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I’m sorry that I seem to be misunderstanding you, but I’m wondering why you saw yourself as “a failure as a woman.” Did you have anyone to talk to about it, like your mom? It makes me so sad that you were so unhappy, when you probably always looked as good as everyone else. 😞 

When your face is at the height of everyone else’s breasts, and you get teased for being a baby (i have a rhotic speech impediment due to dyspraxia), it’s hard to  not get fixated on what you don’t have. I remember my PE teacher trying to convince me that I had the perfect body for gymnastics, but I never even mastered a cartwheel.

 

Honestly, the single thing that helped most was making friends in college with a student with the opposite problem. Where I felt I was too visible due to my lack of secondary development, she had been a D cup by 6th grade and wasn’t done developing yet. We bonded over that shared body dislike. I don’t think either of us had really recognized that other people were just as unhappy as we were. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Dmmetler

[SlowRiver]

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm much more interested in the second question. I have been frankly astonished, over the last five years, at *how many* young people experience ~~some version~~ of dysphoria. The sheer numbers. Unless there's some explanation for what is different, in this moment, that is causal to that distress... it suggests that a STAGGERING NUMBER of people must have felt a staggering weight of un-languaged in-actionable distress in all prior generations.

Possibly there is a real increase here, some people have suggested porn and harder gender stereotypes have put off many girls, for example.

But I think there is actually another factor which is sometimes expressed not as clearly as it might: it's completely normal for teenagers to be what we now call "dysphoric". Many, especially girls, have always felt this way during puberty. But typically it wasn't medicalised, and the message that adults tried to give kids was that these feelings were common, developmentally normal, generally would pass or at least they would reach a place of acceptance, and that their bodies were good and all kinds of bodies were attractive.

And as far as clothes, the message was that to at least some degree you could wear what you wanted, a lot of things were pretty general neutral, and also that clothes were not so important that we should get too upset about them.

Instead what you have now is kids being given a completely different set of messaging about these normal feelings, about how to be "authentic", that presentation is important. And the possibility of opting out of the difficult elements of girlhood - menstruation, the experience of suddenly having quite a different kind of body, accepting that men will think of you in a different way that might seem intimidating or even creepy.

Once that road has been taken, even socially, the formation of a comfortable female identity which only comes by passing through adolescence is actually prevented. 

And for a lot of boys it's very similar. I have a close gay male friend who says the same thing a lot of women I know say, which is that as a teen he would have been very vulnerable to that way of thinking.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Well, there's bcp that helps somewhat.

But if the underlying message is that female anatomy and physiology is so poorly designed that women need medical intervention to cope with their natural function, that doesn't make being female very appealing. 

I guess I just view the female body differently than you do. I don’t think most women need medical (or mental health) intervention to cope with their bodies’ natural functions; I just meant that there may be help available for those that do. 

[Dmmetler]

20 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I’m sorry that I seem to be misunderstanding you, but I’m wondering why you saw yourself as “a failure as a woman.” Did you have anyone to talk to about it, like your mom? It makes me so sad that you were so unhappy, when you probably always looked as good as everyone else. 😞 

Oh, and when getting your period is held up as “becoming a woman”, and you don’t get one, but are told that “it will come”, or worse yet “you’re lucky”, you definitely don’t feel successfully female. When all the locker room talk is making out and going all the way, and you just really don’t have those feelings yet, you feel in sufficiently female. 
 

If I could have identified as agender asexual and gotten the validation from my peers that this was an Ok thing to be, I would have taken it. 
 

I was 16 and living in a college dorm when I finally got my first period. I was shocked because I had kind of assumed it was never going to happen. When I asked my roommate if I could borrow some supplies, she was horrified when she realized that this was my first one, ever, not just an unexpected occurrence.

 

 

[SlowRiver]

Quote

Once that body changes, dramatically, in an unwelcome manner, they can become deeply uncomfortable with that body - it no longer feels right to them, because it has changed dramatically. 

This is exactly how my grandmother described the experience of getting old.

[Catwoman]

Just now, SlowRiver said:

This is exactly how my grandmother described the experience of getting old.

I have heard others say that, as well. When the body they have always been able to count on to allow them to live active lives starts slowing down, that’s often not an easy adjustment, and when something like sudden illness or injury causes that change, it’s even harder. 😞 

[LucyStoner]

41 minutes ago, KSera said:

How does that work for dating? Is the thought that parts shouldn't matter for that, or that you would figure that part out before it mattered?

People recognize biological sex in virtually all cases.  We can pretend they don’t but they do.  That’s just biological reality.  

Sexual orientation is a real thing. Besides visual cues, pheromones  and other biological factors play a huge part in sexual attraction.  Sexual reproduction is such a successful and efficient process that it’s been shown to have evolved separately and independently multiple times on the evolutionary tree.  Humans pretending that we are above that is just silly.  

[SKL]

I was always taught that it was normal to get one's first period any time from age 9 to 18.  I actually had cousins who got theirs at each of those ages.  So while 16 is not average, it is not necessarily abnormal.  I wish this information was more accessible to kids.

I also have experience with boys who remained in their "child" body, short, hairless, and with high-pitched voices, for years after their age peers had matured.  That's hard too, but still within norms.  The moms just kept reassuring them until they started growing / having "voice breaks."

And yes, I do tell my kids that menstruation is gonna suck for the next 40-ish years, and perimenopause is even worse.  (I wish someone had told me about perimenopause and what to do if I thought I was bleeding to death.  But that's a whole other thread.)  I also tell them to tell me if they have pain that can't be controlled with OTC meds, or bleeding that fills more than a pad per hour, or bleeding that lasts more than a week per month.  That there are medical interventions that can help with these things.

I never "liked" menstruating, and that's only one of the things I never learned to like.  But I didn't hate it enough to end myself or my body parts.  It helped to know that this was a shared burden that nearly all women can relate to.

[Catwoman]

14 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

When your face is at the height of everyone else’s breasts, and you get teased for being a baby (i have a rhotic speech impediment due to dyspraxia), it’s hard to  not get fixated on what you don’t have. I remember my PE teacher trying to convince me that I had the perfect body for gymnastics, but I never even mastered a cartwheel.

 

Honestly, the single thing that helped most was making friends in college with a student with the obvious problem. Where I felt I was too visible due to my lack of secondary development, she had been a D cup by 6th grade and wasn’t done developing yet. We bonded over that shared body dislike. I don’t think either of us had really recognized that other people were just as unhappy as we were. 

 

6 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Oh, and when getting your period is held up as “becoming a woman”, and you don’t get one, but are told that “it will come”, or worse yet “you’re lucky”, you definitely don’t feel successfully female. When all the locker room talk is making out and going all the way, and you just really don’t have those feelings yet, you feel in sufficiently female. 
 

If I could have identified as agender asexual and gotten the validation from my peers that this was an Ok thing to be, I would have taken it. 
 

I was 16 and living in a college dorm when I finally got my first period. I was shocked because I had kind of assumed it was never going to happen. When I asked my roommate if I could borrow some supplies, she was horrified when she realized that this was my first one, ever, not just an unexpected occurrence.

 

 

Thank you for responding. (If you want me to delete the quotes, just let me know!)

When you were describing your size and appearance as a teen, it sounded exactly like one of my close friends, all the way down to getting her period very late (I think she was 17.) But she liked being petite and she dressed in a very feminine way, and she seemed to embrace her body exactly as it was. She would complain about always having to have her clothes altered because she was so petite, but she loved shopping for clothes and wearing makeup and all of the other girly teen stuff. She is now a very successful attorney (and she is still inches less than 5 feet tall.) 

I wish you could have had that kind of experience. It must have been so hard to feel the way you did for such a long time. I hope you are happier with your body now. 

[Dmmetler]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Thank you for responding. (If you want me to delete the quotes, just let me know!)

When you were describing your size and appearance as a teen, it sounded exactly like one of my close friends, all the way down to getting her period very late (I think she was 17.) But she liked being petite and she dressed in a very feminine way, and she seemed to embrace her body exactly as it was. She would complain about always having to have her clothes altered because she was so petite, but she loved shopping for clothes and wearing makeup and all of the other girly teen stuff. She is now a very successful attorney (and she is still inches less than 5 feet tall.) 

I wish you could have had that kind of experience. It must have been so hard to feel the way you did for such a long time. I hope you are happier with your body now. 

I also can’t easily do makeup or anything elaborate with my hair-dyspraxia, again. So that didn’t help. I basically felt stuck outside being a woman, since I hit the stage that most girls hit in elementary school in high school, and didn’t really hit full puberty until I was in college.

 

As I said, it resolved. But I have no trouble understanding why kids might be unwilling to accept the “it’s normal, you just have to live through it” when there is also a message that if you are unhappy with your body you can change it. And that message isn’t just the LGBT side, but comes from every diet, makeover, and plastic surgery article, show or discussion. 

 

My guess is that if you looked at kids who qualify for a ROGD DX, they are likely to be at the extremes of “normal”, particularly if they are also lesbian/gay/bi. 
 

 

[Frances]

56 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

If they are that miserable with their bodies, though, shouldn’t they seek some mental health counseling, as well as speak with their doctors about medications that might alleviate some of their physical and psychological symptoms? 

I would never tell a girl that the next 50 years is going to suck (or that menopause is no picnic, either.) I would try to encourage her to seek treatment for the issues that are troubling her, because being a woman doesn’t have to be a terrible experience.

At the appropriate age, I’d encourage them to consider the wonders of an IUD and consult with their doctor. No more periods and birth control all in one. Not having periods is awesome.

[LucyStoner]

I am someone who experienced symptoms of dysphoria as a child and young adult.  I don’t think I had gender dysphoria as such but I definitely met the dx criteria for it at times.  

Life is full of painful things and and how we navigate that pain is part of what makes us human.  

For me, dysphoria wasn’t something that was fully independent of other, serious and relevant factors (I was sexually assaulted when I was 11).  I don’t think that I would have been well served by transitioning in the way my brother (who didn’t have the same trauma factor) has been, though I very much loathed being in a female body for protracted periods of time.  There are many reasons that people feel badly in their bodies at different times.  Part of the loathing was external forces- safety, feeling ogled, feeling like I was expected to have a different personality than I do etc. Part of that loathing was dealing with a decade of periods that lasted two weeks out of every four with intense cramping and caused a couple of days of vomiting each time (fortunately this resolved but it was actually pregnancy that resolved it so not a recommended treatment for teen girls).  

People should be aware that not everyone who experiences dysphoria feels that their dysphoria is best addressed with transition.  Even for those for whom their dysphoria *is best addressed with transition*, that doesn’t mean the dysphoria goes away.  Some people find that transitioning exacerbates their dysphoria and doesn’t resolve their feelings of dysphoria.  Others find it abates for a bit and returns.  Still others find that it works most of the time for a very long time.  I don’t know anyone for whom it has been a cure all.  My brother (who is explicitly ok with me sharing this), still experiences dysphoria 20 years after his transition.  He feels very strongly that you have to learn self acceptance regardless of if you transition or not and that some people come at transition falsely believing it to be a cure for dysphoria or for their self loathing or for other mental health issues but that it’s not.  It’s a treatment for dysphoria - a valid, important one for many but it’s not right for everyone anymore than one medication is right for everyone who has any other medical condition.  It’s also a treatment that has long term and lifelong implications- I’m not sure many young people are thinking about the realties of relying on exogenous hormone treatment for life.   Accurate and complete information needs to be made available, not just about life a year or two following hormones but 10, 20, 30+ years out.  For some people the immediate opportunity costs of transition are too high- I have a friend who experiences ongoing dysphoria but could not reconcile herself to the thought of losing her singing voice and so she decided to live with it.  I know other people with a range of other reasons for deciding that transition isn’t their best treatment.  

People should also be aware that identification as a trans person is now something that now doesn’t require one to feel dysphoria.  As discussed, not every kid I know who identifies as trans experiences gender dysphoria.  In fact at least where I am, a somewhat sizable number of them do not seem to.  I can legally sign a form and change my gender marker on my driver’s license tomorrow, with or without any therapy or other medical care at all.  (Well, I could assuming one could get a DMV appointment right now.  🤣) If you think that every trans person experiences dysphoria or that every dysphoric person should transition, you probably don’t know very many trans or dysphoric people. This is a complex issue.  Again, as I have said before I am concerned that the treatment of transition for dysphoria is imperiled by some of the recent changes to how we approach this issue.  

Edited June 27, 2021 by LucyStoner

[maize]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

ETA: just to clarify, I generally *like* my body and what it can do; however, I don't experience the aspects related to my female reproductive organs as anything but a nuisance now that they have long served their purpose.

They were a nuisance in the years before they served their reproductive purpose too! Why the heck did I have to start menstruating at age 10?!? I was not reproducing at that age...

 

Disliking aspects of the female body is in no way an indication that a person is *not actually female*.

Edited June 27, 2021 by maize

[Murphy101]

 

54 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Well, there's bcp that helps somewhat.

But if the underlying message is that female anatomy and physiology is so poorly designed that women need medical intervention to cope with their natural function, that doesn't make being female very appealing. 

I think more people need to know that both sexes go through this. They may express it differently and their may be different helps for it - but I’m telling you now as a mother of 7 sons - boys may not get periods, but they can struggle really hard with puberty too.  No one ever discusses this but it is so very true.

I think a huge problem here is viewing  needing help as a female defect.   It’s just part of being human and none of us get through this life without help.

I wish there were more napro doctors around to help women (and men) instead of just giving pills. Don’t get me wrong. I love medical advances in medication but the default first response to young women of giving them hormone pills needs to stop.  It’s sexist.  It may be the only best solution for some. But not for all of them nearly every time they mention anything ever to their doctor about their health. 

[marbel]

Re: girls and periods. I wonder (and I am not asking anyone to google this for me, I may do it when I have more time) if young women in cultures that *celebrate* first menses have an easier time of it because it is looked upon as a normal and positive thing (or at least not a negative).

Just musing about it. When I talked about menstruation with my daughter I told her what she might experience (so she was not surprised and worried) but didn't tell her it was going to make her miserable for many years till menopause, which was going to be even worse. Sure, that aspect of being female is not fun. But <shrug> it's just a fact that women have to deal with it. I don't see any point in telling someone something is going to be terrible, because it might not be for them.  Why make them dread it?  Certainly commiseration and empathy are in order if periods are painful, etc. I'm not saying to brush it off. 

I don't remember what my mother ever told me about periods. Probably not any more than she had to, as she was squeamish about such topics. Likely she let the school do it.  

[KSera]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Many women are uncomfortable with their bodies way beyond the teen years.

Some never make peace with the fact that there are several days each month where they feel either like raging lunatics or in deep despair, followed by several days where they endure torrential unpredictable bleeding that interferes with their daily activities. 

Does anyone tell the girls " yep, this is how it's going to suck for the next fifty years until you're in menopause"?

I have finished procreating and would gladly have an unsexed body already.

I totally get this and am over the whole thing myself also. I think I'm helped by having a pretty pragmatic outlook on things that just are, so I see this as just how it is and am not prone to spending much time thinking about how it could/should be different (though I do wish there was a switch we could turn off when we were done with all that stuff!). Sometimes I wonder if our current ways of parenting kids such that we try to fix problems and avoid any significant discomfort for our kids contributes to some of this. This doesn't go just for gender dysphoria, but I've mused whether this contributes to the enormous increase in depression and anxiety rates. I sense that kids tend to feel alarmed if they are unhappy or anxious, and it feeds into a cycle that makes those feelings escalate. I think when we were growing up, we were more likely to think feeling unhappy or anxious were just part of the normal range of feelings and we didn't fixate or catastrophize on them. Honestly, it's made me parent my younger kids differently, to not work to make them happy and comfortable all the time and not solve all their problems. Hopefully they will be more resilient for it.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 wish there were more napro doctors around to help women (and men) instead of just giving pills. Don’t get me wrong. I love medical advances in medication but the default first response to young women of giving them hormone pills needs to stop.  It’s sexist.  It may be the only best solution for some. But not for all of them nearly every time they mention anything ever to their doctor about their health. 

What is a napro doctor?

Can they make periods/PMS go away without hormones?

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

 I think when we were growing up, we were more likely to think feeling unhappy or anxious were just part of the normal range of feelings and we didn't fixate or catastrophize on them. 

When we were growing up, there was also no mental heath awareness, depression and anxiety were seen as weaknesses where you should just pull yourself together, therapy was stigmatized, and people were not comfortable being open about mental health. The good old days weren't quite as idyllic.

[Melissa Louise]

57 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

This is exactly how my grandmother described the experience of getting old.

The adjustment is part of healthy psychological functioning. No-one said it's an easy process, though. Psychological maturation often involves struggle and work. 

 

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

DD is 11 and started her period a few months ago. It used to seem strange to me why girls wouldn't want to be girls but watching DD deal with her period has been eye opening for me. Of course I went through it too but had long since forgotten it. 

There is a lot of blood and it's completely unpredictable. The pediatrician told me that her periods might be unpredictable for the next 2 or so years. We were at my parents last week and I had to do multiple loads of laundry because of leaks. It got on her clothes and the sheets. 

I've been very matter of fact about it. I don't want her to pick up on the idea that is something shameful or needs to be hidden. Blood getting on the sheets is totally normal and will come out in the laundry. If it's permanently stained, we'll buy new. No big deal. 

But it's still just a big pain. DD is going to camp next month and we have to plan for this and I won't be there to help or do laundry. 

It just seems so unfair. That there is this burden placed on you because you are a girl. 

There's also the cramping. The pediatrician said to expect unpredictable cramps in the first few years. 

This is so hard for a kid and I can totally understand why some kids would see it and say, "nope!" 

 

Poor kid. That's awful.

My best friend in middle school had to stay home from school several days each month because her periods were completely debilitating. It had nothing to do with being  "shameful" - blood leaking and painful cramps can't be talked away by telling them how natural and normal menstruation is.

ETA: and OMG the public humiliation when accidents happen at school. There is no way you get a class of preteens to be sensitive and kind.

Edited June 27, 2021 by regentrude

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

They were a nuisance in the years before they served their reproductive purpose too! Why the heck did I have to start menstruating at age 10?!? I was not reproducing at that age...

 

Disliking aspects of the female is in no way an indication that a person is *not actually female*.

LOL. I agree! And I wish that when my eggs suck or my uterus sucks or my body has decided I’m just too damn old for this - the periods would just stop. Just. Come on, Lord, have mercy already.  I’ve been calling perimenopause Second Puberty. Acne. Yep. Skin and body changes.  Yep. Never know when a period will happen maybe while swimming, maybe seemingly never.  Yep. Libido all over the place or just leave me alone in a dark room with all the carbs.  Yep. Insomnia or sleep 18 hours. Yep.  Moody. yep  

But I talk to my good guy friends and my husband and they are like damn - US TOO! And we half-joke about their reality dealing with manopause.

LOL but this too shall pass. Maybe like a kidney stone, but it will. And some diet and sometimes medical help (praise the lord for Vit D and thyroid!) and loved ones extending some grace will make it pass a bit easier.  

[Pam in CT]

re the Sheer Numbers of kids experiencing ~~some form~~ of dysphoria, and whether that has always been true in prior generations

46 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

Possibly there is a real increase here, some people have suggested porn and harder gender stereotypes have put off many girls, for example.

But I think there is actually another factor which is sometimes expressed not as clearly as it might: it's completely normal for teenagers to be what we now call "dysphoric". Many, especially girls, have always felt this way during puberty. But typically it wasn't medicalised, and the message that adults tried to give kids was that these feelings were common, developmentally normal, generally would pass or at least they would reach a place of acceptance, and that their bodies were good and all kinds of bodies were attractive....

(I do think gender stereotypes have hardened since the time I was coming of age. 

As well, in those days there was also a real conversation about women's capacity for, and right to, pleasure in bed, a conversation / notion which maybe was never fully shared across all segments of society; but which in any event seems to have largely receded.  All three of my kids report some pretty unreciprocal expectations in that regard, which perhaps do reflect greater porn use... need to think about that some more.  But if part of the stereotyped social expectations, for conservative wives as surely as for Sex in the City singles, amounts to a sort of resigned ya do whatcher man wants you to do... I can see how that might, er, curb their enthusiasm for the whole undertaking.)

To your second factor, though: are you suggesting that the *subjective experience* of young people not-liking or not-comfortable-in or longing-to-opt-out has always been... quite common, and what is different today is the language of "dysphoria" and the cultural wrap around to it?

That it's not so much that the real incidence of such subjective experience, as a wider range of options and acceptance?

42 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

...If I could have identified as agender asexual and gotten the validation from my peers that this was an Ok thing to be, I would have taken it. ...

If that is the case, then if kids could wade in a wider/bigger bucket of more fluid/asexual/androgynous range -- rather than fast-track to bodily changes, I mean -- would, I would think, HELP over time. 

 

re assurances from grownups, and how they land to adolescents

14 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

...As I said, it resolved. But I have no trouble understanding why kids might be unwilling to accept the “it’s normal, you just have to live through it” when there is also a message that if you are unhappy with your body you can change it. And that message isn’t just the LGBT side, but comes from every diet, makeover, and plastic surgery article, show or discussion. 

My guess is that if you looked at kids who qualify for a ROGD DX, they are likely to be at the extremes of “normal”, particularly if they are also lesbian/gay/bi.

This is hard, because (I know from hard-won experience as both a onetime hard-to-parent kid, and also as a parent to a hard-to-parent kid, that...) some kids can't hear that "This Too Shall Pass" message from parents. 

Not "won't."  Can't.

[maize]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

LOL but this too shall pass. Maybe like a kidney stone, but it will. 

Thanks for the laugh 😂