What are some curriculum trends you’ve noticed over the years?

[LMD]

I feel a bit defensive about Boaler here! 😄

I (and some other boardies) beta tested her 'how to learn math' class at Stanford and I found it hugely helpful. For example, the never telling kids they're wrong thing is not exactly right - there is a correct answer! But wrong answers don't mean a student is 'bad' at maths and that's not the end, wrong answers are signposts on the journey to the correct answer.

And, I love math circles and have run a few.

Edited June 10, 2021 by LMD

[daijobu]

I forgot to mention Luke Robataille was also on this unexpectedly hilarious episode of this TV show.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, LMD said:

I feel a but defensive about Boaler here! 😄

I (and some other boardies) beta tested her 'how to learn math' class at Stanford and I found it hugely helpful. For example, the never telling kid's they're wrong thing is not exactly right - there is a correct answer! But wrong answers don't mean a student is 'bad' at maths, wrong answers are signposts on the journey to the correct answer.

And, I love math circles and have run a few.

I think pretty much everyone knocking that method agrees with that, interestingly enough. It's just all her stuff seems to take it way too far and seems to forego necessary levels of instruction. 

It's good to hear that the message is useful for some people, though 🙂 . I just wonder what people who don't know much math make of it... 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Don't knock Texas.  Luke Robataille is there.  He is homeschooled and he won MathCounts TWICE (like the whole thing at Nationals), AND he's won 2 IMO gold medals so far.  

I just received an email from a local homeschooling mom who spent the pandemic in Texas and her student was taking MathCounts and AMC classes down there.  

I mean, kids like that are great but have basically nothing to do with where they live. I've heard of him. He sounds highly motivated and very excited about math. I think he could have lived absolutely anywhere. 

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think pretty much everyone knocking that method agrees with that, interestingly enough. It's just all her stuff seems to take it way too far and seems to forego necessary levels of instruction. 

It's good to hear that the message is useful for some people, though 🙂 . I just wonder what people who don't know much math make of it... 

I would just say that, like 'new math,' some people only partly understand her point and make a mess of teaching that way... probably they would make a mess of teaching math any way!

She wasn't my only influence, Liping Ma was big here on the boards then too, for instance. But I did get a lot out of that course.

[Kakids]

23 minutes ago, daijobu said:

You know, I do this a lot.  If a student makes an error, I try to be positive as much as possible.  I will tell them how far into the problem they were correct.  And sometimes I will tell them their error is a common one, or it's a common newbie error, or I'll admit to making the same sort of error myself.  I'll offer a way to avoid that error in the future (not skipping steps, documenting more carefully, etc.)  

And this, correcting with compassion, I can be on board with.
I have just seen the don’t tell a child they’re wrong taken to such extremes that there is no correction of mistakes. That helps almost no one.

[daijobu]

2 minutes ago, Kakids said:

And this, correcting with compassion, I can be on board with.
 

Oh, I like that.  Correcting with compassion!  That's how I feel.  

[stripe]

One of my kids studies Chinese at a local cultural center that also runs some math classes and cultural activities. Last summer I put a different kid in a summer school math class that was held over Zoom. No shortage of students, or their moms, in that one. 

[klmama]

On 6/8/2021 at 6:53 PM, daijobu said:

If it makes you feel better, I'm terrible at reading.  I'll scan word by word, line by line, page after page, but my brain is somewhere else entirely and I'll have no idea what I've read.  I have no idea how I accomplish this.  

I'm trying to read Les Miserables (and failing miserably).  A podcaster just mentioned that in the section I just read  Fantine died.  Wait what?  I actually missed her death scene.  

I forget character's names, I gloss over descriptions of their appearance or some weird architectural detail I've never heard of, or some description of a nature scene.  If there isn't a movie version of a book, then I'm hopelessly lost after the 4th character has been introduced.  ("Wait, is that the same guy?  That's the same guy right?")

Have you tried listening to audio books instead?  You might find it easier to keep everything straight.  

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Really?? I feel like it's much easier for me to deal with the academics. 

I wasn't saying sports is easy to get into or do compared to academics in terms of K-12. So if you are average at best sports player yes it's hard to get on a team. It is a HUGE commitment on the kids and parents part to do competitive sports. 

What I meant by merit-based is that if you are a high schooler throwing 90 mph fastballs accurately, you can get into a college with a good scholarship (you still have to be academically good enough for the school). Where as with academics it's starting to feel like whether you're ethnicity, where you grew up, first generation college, etc. are mattering more than what you can actually do academically. 

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Maybe this varies by area, but around here, sports is highly influenced by "who you are/know".  You also have to make the commitment to a sport very early on, like no later than kindergarten age, otherwise you are kind of locked out of playing. 

I think you can choose up to maybe 3rd grade. The before kindergarten sports (even competitive) getting the kids to pay attention is most of what gets covered. Even though it doesn't seem like it your kindergartener/first grader can easily catch up to the skills of the player who started since they could walk. 

[Wheres Toto]

8 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it depends where you are, though, I'm sure. I think @Wheres Toto is in NJ, but not near NYC, and she's know more about that. Where I am, a lot of the activities are pretty NYC-centered -- it definitely attracts people. 

I'm in the middle part of North Jersey, about 30 miles from the GWB and just slightly more from the Lincoln Tunnel which is our usual method into NYC if we don't take the train.  We love going into NYC for the museums, shows, zoo, and just to hang out.  

My area has a ton of stuff going on and we get people from all over North Jersey, NY and PA coming to classes and activities.   Central and South Jersey aren't as active from what understand, unless you are near Princeton.  

The taxes are high but I've been here my whole life so I guess I'm used to it.  There can be HUGE differences from town to town or by county.   I do feel we get a lot for it.  

Advantages are its super easy to homeschool, tons of activities, can be way more Suburban/Rural than people think, science-minded educated people.  And the gas thing is definitely an advantage to me, especially in the middle of winter when its snowing or right now actually when it's hitting 90 degrees and humid.  

 

[HomeAgain]

8 hours ago, daijobu said:

You know, I do this a lot.  If a student makes an error, I try to be positive as much as possible.  I will tell them how far into the problem they were correct.  And sometimes I will tell them their error is a common one, or it's a common newbie error, or I'll admit to making the same sort of error myself.  I'll offer a way to avoid that error in the future (not skipping steps, documenting more carefully, etc.)  

 

I was actually explicitly taught in high school that the best learning comes in isolation, when you are studying at home by yourself.  My math teacher called it the "closet aha."  You learned better on your own than you did in a classroom full of students.  

I think you and I approach teaching math similarly.  I want kids to feel positive about math.  I want them to work through issues.  I want them to understand how to check their work or prove it's right, so they can catch errors.  And I want them to feel comfortable asking for help because of course they don't know everything - that's why I'm there. I have no problem telling a kid what they did right and at the same time helping them develop the tools they need to work better.  But sometimes, yes, I will tell them their answer is wrong, especially my little mental-math-driven 9yo who doesn't think he needs to write ANYTHING down until he gets to the answer. 😄 Yeah, learning to write the recipe is part of math, kiddo!
Knowing something is wrong helps figure out what to do right.
 

[HomeAgain]

8 hours ago, LMD said:

I feel a bit defensive about Boaler here! 😄

I (and some other boardies) beta tested her 'how to learn math' class at Stanford and I found it hugely helpful. For example, the never telling kids they're wrong thing is not exactly right - there is a correct answer! But wrong answers don't mean a student is 'bad' at maths and that's not the end, wrong answers are signposts on the journey to the correct answer.

And, I love math circles and have run a few.

So this is from the Advice From Jo Boaler handout that is on our school's website:
2. Always be encouraging and never tell a kid they are wrong when working on maths problems. Instead find the logic in their thinking- there is always some logic to what they say.

I am all for not letting it hinge on right/wrong as the end result, but that wrong answers provide chances to go back and understand the material with more explicit teaching. If something is wrong, the child may not understand it well and need a different explanation or exploration.  If she had approached it that way, I would not have had such a reaction to her approach.

[Not_a_Number]

56 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I'm in the middle part of North Jersey, about 30 miles from the GWB and just slightly more from the Lincoln Tunnel which is our usual method into NYC if we don't take the train.  We love going into NYC for the museums, shows, zoo, and just to hang out.  

My area has a ton of stuff going on and we get people from all over North Jersey, NY and PA coming to classes and activities.   Central and South Jersey aren't as active from what understand, unless you are near Princeton.  

The taxes are high but I've been here my whole life so I guess I'm used to it.  There can be HUGE differences from town to town or by county.   I do feel we get a lot for it.  

Advantages are its super easy to homeschool, tons of activities, can be way more Suburban/Rural than people think, science-minded educated people.  And the gas thing is definitely an advantage to me, especially in the middle of winter when its snowing or right now actually when it's hitting 90 degrees and humid.  

 

Ah, sorry, I somehow thought you were further away!! My bad.

[Not_a_Number]

5 hours ago, Clarita said:

I wasn't saying sports is easy to get into or do compared to academics in terms of K-12. So if you are average at best sports player yes it's hard to get on a team. It is a HUGE commitment on the kids and parents part to do competitive sports. 

What I meant by merit-based is that if you are a high schooler throwing 90 mph fastballs accurately, you can get into a college with a good scholarship (you still have to be academically good enough for the school). Where as with academics it's starting to feel like whether you're ethnicity, where you grew up, first generation college, etc. are mattering more than what you can actually do academically. 

I guess that wasn’t my experience or my sister’s. And I am not sure what you mean about “starting to feel” — ethnic quotas are nothing new...

[Clemsondana]

11 hours ago, Clarita said:

I can also see a parent choosing sports over math to get into and get scholarships for college. Sports still feels a bit more merit-based, while academics feels like it's also based on who you are (race, gender, social-economic status, ...).  

Not looking forward to the day I have to choose between math and baseball for my eldest. Currently, (he's only 4.5 so who knows) he's actually exceptional at both (mommy brag - he can hit a line drive off of a pitch and can add/knows quantities up to 100). I'll admit if he is interested in both, exceptional at both and I have to choose an extra-curricular due to scheduling, I'll probably choose baseball. It would not be for the coolness factor, but for getting into a top college.

You may not have to choose academics vs sports unless you are looking at truly elite levels of either/both.  Homeschoolers tend to have more time and schedule flexibility, and for some of us allowing our kid to explore multiple interests is a specific reason why we homeschool. 

It was interesting when our Science Olympiad team first went to nationals.  We talked to kids on other teams and many sign a contract saying that they will do no other extracurriculars so that they can spend 20+ hrs a week on SO.  In a highly competitive state that may be necessary to win and go to nationals, but in other states it's not required.  In our state, our homeschool teams are typically in the top 3 at the state meets, and most of our kids do other activities.  This year, I know that one kid is also on a robotics team, one runs soccer and track, mine played baseball and basketball (although we are giving up basketball due to time issues, but that's more about managing 2 sports and 2 academic teams and moving to high school where sports are year-round).  A kid on our team a few years ago now swims for a college team.  A lot of the homeschool kids earn a credit or 2 over the summer to lighten the load during the school year.  

As far as whether it's easier to break into sports or academics...in our case, it's been far easier to break into academics.  That may be less so where competition is more intense.  Making AAU and travel sports teams often has a 'who you know' component, and for elite teams (which we don't play on) there may be 100 kids trying out - I heard about 1 baseball team with 400 kids at try-outs!  Expense can be comparable, but it depends on the team.  Homeschool teams of any kind can be pricey because parents fund everything.  But, school sports run a lot of fundraisers and even inexpensive travel teams aren't cheap.  But, we encountered SO teams that fly around the country for science competitions, something our team could never do.  I think that everything being online this year was a big leveler - we did 5-6 invitationals instead of the usual 2 that we can drive to.

So much depends on exactly where you are - Atlanta is known for fierce baseball, and CA has regions known for fierce baseball and cutthroat science olypiad competition.  In our town, there are differences in how competitive it is to make the school ball team from one end of the county to the other - at some schools the kids have had years of all sorts of lessons, and at others the kids have just played years of rec ball...unless they are just amazing natural athletes, you can tell which is which when the schools play against each other.  For both academics and athletics, people are on different planets as far as what is considered 'normal' and what they have access to, unfortunately.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

12 hours ago, daijobu said:

Don't knock Texas. 

Not knocking anything; simply stating where I am? I’m sure there are people, I just haven’t found them among the elementary set. The university math circles are ages 12+. I absolutely plan to reach out at that point, but it would be nice to find something similar for the several interim years. 🤷🏻‍♀️

ETA: While I’d prefer in-person, I have found an online course that blends DS’ interests in both Mathematics & Poetics, which we’ll give a try this fall. If that goes well there are a few other mathematical offerings on that platform that he may enjoy & they aren’t age-restricted. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[goldenecho]

On 6/9/2021 at 2:17 PM, Xahm said:

About math circles: it's the kind of thing I may sign my kids up for, but it's hard for me to imagine what one actually is and does. I could research and probably will (this thread is reminding me that I checked pre-pandemic and a couple local universities run then, but for kids a little older than mine), but I think a lot of moms hear the term and assume it's either some kind of tutoring or else preparation for super-elite math competitions.

This is the same for me.   I can think of some math related stuff my son would enjoy (he does like math), but I don't think he'd want a competition or something that felt like extra homework.  

Like, if in stead of calling it "Math Club" or "Math Circle" they called it "Fun Math Games and Projects" maybe more people would be more drawn to it.  I'd go to something called "Math Art"   and my kids would be more drawn to "Building With Math" or "Math Makers"  (playing off Maker Fair) or something like that.

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, goldenecho said:

This is the same for me.   I can think of some math related stuff my son would enjoy (he does like math), but I don't think he'd want a competition or something that felt like extra homework.  

Like, if in stead of calling it "Math Club" or "Math Circle" they called it "Fun Math Games and Projects" maybe more people would be more drawn to it.  I'd go to something called "Math Art"   and my kids would be more drawn to "Building With Math" or "Math Makers"  (playing off Maker Fair) or something like that.

I think the word "math" is the problem for the people being described 😉. 

I still think people should do what I do and offer a "class." Then do whatever you want in it. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

1 hour ago, goldenecho said:

This is the same for me.   I can think of some math related stuff my son would enjoy (he does like math), but I don't think he'd want a competition or something that felt like extra homework.  

Like, if in stead of calling it "Math Club" or "Math Circle" they called it "Fun Math Games and Projects" maybe more people would be more drawn to it.  I'd go to something called "Math Art"   and my kids would be more drawn to "Building With Math" or "Math Makers"  (playing off Maker Fair) or something like that.

 

I was very descriptive & explicitly mentioned that the focus would be on mathy art, tabletop games, hands-on projects & group activities. No mention of any competitions. 

ETA

Anyway, it seems we’ve gotten decidedly off-topic. Back to curriculum trends… 

What are the biggest changes people have seen in homeschooling middle school?

I hear quite a lot from parents of elementary ages, since that’s where DS is & HSing in general I think trends younger. The high school kids seem to be largely independent & most dual-enroll at least part-time (many full-time) at the CC. I don’t hear much about the in-between set. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[LMD]

12 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

So this is from the Advice From Jo Boaler handout that is on our school's website:
2. Always be encouraging and never tell a kid they are wrong when working on maths problems. Instead find the logic in their thinking- there is always some logic to what they say.

I am all for not letting it hinge on right/wrong as the end result, but that wrong answers provide chances to go back and understand the material with more explicit teaching. If something is wrong, the child may not understand it well and need a different explanation or exploration.  If she had approached it that way, I would not have had such a reaction to her approach.

Okay, I don't know the context of that quote and I'm not some Boaler fangirl who thinks she can't do any wrong...

But this sounds like a difference in communication? She's not saying let them think an incorrect answer is actually correct, she's saying dig into how they got to that answer? Many times I've been working with a kid who got an answer wrong. Instead of putting a red x or telling them 'no, that's wrong' I ask them to explain their thought process - a LOT of the time they realise their mistake before the end of the sentence. If they don't, then I ask more probing, comceptual questions to lead them to see the correct way. 

Maybe I'm wrong, and I totally buy that this process might well be too unwieldy and thus counter productive for a classroom, but that is the gist of what I read into that quote. 

[Goldcrest]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the word "math" is the problem for the people being described 😉. 

I still think people should do what I do and offer a "class." Then do whatever you want in it. 

I disagree about the word math being the problem, though I think you are correct on the class front possibly being more broadly appealing. 
 

Another aspect that comes into play is the personalities of the parents, usually the mothers, as far as who is hosting and attending and joining. A class allows for more distance and lack of need for a relationship between parent and instructor. It’s a paid relationship and there is no expectation to be friends or really be involved. With “clubs” and “co-ops” the parents are more closely involoved and interactive, at which point how they relate and get along becomes more important, so the bar may be higher for attracting members. Sometimes the key to getting a robust and active group is to pull in the outgoing parents with a broad social group, when word of mouth can then help pull others in regardless of circle/club/group. Otherwise it is left solely to the organizing parent which is already a tiresome job, to then need to add marketing hat too. Extroverted popular friends can be helpful in such ventures. 

[Not_a_Number]

45 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

I disagree about the word math being the problem, though I think you are correct on the class front possibly being more broadly appealing. 
 

Another aspect that comes into play is the personalities of the parents, usually the mothers, as far as who is hosting and attending and joining. A class allows for more distance and lack of need for a relationship between parent and instructor. It’s a paid relationship and there is no expectation to be friends or really be involved. With “clubs” and “co-ops” the parents are more closely involoved and interactive, at which point how they relate and get along becomes more important, so the bar may be higher for attracting members. Sometimes the key to getting a robust and active group is to pull in the outgoing parents with a broad social group, when word of mouth can then help pull others in regardless of circle/club/group. Otherwise it is left solely to the organizing parent which is already a tiresome job, to then need to add marketing hat too. Extroverted popular friends can be helpful in such ventures. 

I'm not an extrovert by nature, but I've kind of had to become one by profession. I've done a LOT of networking, which came in extremely handy when I needed to pull together a small Zoom class last year. So yeah... you have a very good point. 

[jrichstad]

3 hours ago, LMD said:

But this sounds like a difference in communication? She's not saying let them think an incorrect answer is actually correct, she's saying dig into how they got to that answer?

Also, there's a meaningful difference between saying "You're wrong" and saying "That answer is not correct." I know we're talking about math, but words matter 😉

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, jrichstad said:

Also, there's a meaningful difference between saying "You're wrong" and saying "That answer is not correct." I know we're talking about math, but words matter 😉

I'm a really, really, really validating math teacher, and I'd guess I'd say something like "unfortunately, that's not quite right." I might say "I see your point" or "I see how you got that," but I'd definitely unambiguously redirect.

My issue with the YouCubed stuff isn't that it says that "growth mindset" is a good idea, or because it promotes encouragement, or because it states that there's a virtue in kids discovering things. It's that they seem to think that these components suffice to make a good math education. If it were the case that putting some kids in a room and giving them "thought-provoking" problems to work on in groups was enough, we would have long since solved our issues with math education. 

I think that math teaching, when done well, is an art and a dance and a balancing act. How much information do you give the student? How much do you have them explain and how much do you assume they understand without that? How responsive are you to their conceptual issues? Are you aware of what the potential conceptual issues ARE and do you know how to provide experiences that clarify those? 

YouCubed, from what I've seen of it, throws out the baby with the bathwater. They confuse a necessary component of a good math education for an only component of a good math education. They'll almost certainly fail, but in the meantime, lots of kids will be unwitting experiment subjects and will not be taught math well. And we'll be no closer to finding ACTUAL solutions to the problems. And that makes me both sad and mad. 

[Shoeless]

8 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

What are the biggest changes people have seen in homeschooling middle school?

I hear quite a lot from parents of elementary ages, since that’s where DS is & HSing in general I think trends younger. The high school kids seem to be largely independent & most dual-enroll at least part-time (many full-time) at the CC. I don’t hear much about the in-between set. 

I can't speak to changes in curriculum, but it seems like the middle school years are where most people bounce back to school.  It's fun to teach littles, but sometimes it's painfully dull to teach middle schoolers.  I know I am feeling a bit bored with our lessons lately.  Sometimes there's no "homeschool magic" to be found.  It's just read the chapter, write the paragraph, wash, rinse, repeat.  🤷‍♀️ 

Between dullness and puberty, I think a lot of moms say "Heck with this", and punt the kids back to school.  The social stuff gets weird in middle school, too. Some of the kids are really mature and others are late bloomers. The kids that used to happily dig holes together at the park now stare awkwardly at each other.  The kids don't really want the parents in the middle of their social stuff, but they are also still somewhat dependent on mom to facilitate the social stuff.  It's a weird time. 

[mellifera33]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I can't speak to changes in curriculum, but it seems like the middle school years are where most people bounce back to school.  It's fun to teach littles, but sometimes it's painfully dull to teach middle schoolers.  I know I am feeling a bit bored with our lessons lately.  Sometimes there's no "homeschool magic" to be found.  It's just read the chapter, write the paragraph, wash, rinse, repeat.  🤷‍♀️ 

Between dullness and puberty, I think a lot of moms say "Heck with this", and punt the kids back to school.  The social stuff gets weird in middle school, too. Some of the kids are really mature and others are late bloomers. The kids that used to happily dig holes together at the park now stare awkwardly at each other.  The kids don't really want the parents in the middle of their social stuff, but they are also still somewhat dependent on mom to facilitate the social stuff.  It's a weird time. 

Huh, I haven't seen this in my homeschool group, and I kind of feel the opposite way. Maybe I'm not a fun mom with the littles. lol. It's been fascinating to see my young teen's academic interests develop and I find it much more interesting to talk with him about his paper about say, the Iranian Revolution, than to talk to my 8 y/o about her polar bear report. 

Do you live in an area where there is peer pressure from churches or families to homeschool? I can see that being a factor. Mom isn't really into it, but feels pressured. Teaching little kids is easy, but then she doesn't have an intrinsic reason to keep homeschooling into the later grades, and the peer pressure among moms of older kids is less than among moms of littles? I don't know, I just like to brainstorm I guess. 🙂

[Clemsondana]

In our area people are more likely to send kids to high school than middle school - there are people who consider middle school something to be survived and would rather their kids not be involved in public school during those years due to social issues.  I think they feel like they don't have to be too strict on content subjects until high school.  I've also seen a couple of cases of parents homeschooling multiple kids K-12 and then the youngest decides to go to high school because there are no other kids left at home.  We know of one family who gives their kids the choice of homeschooling or going to the good Catholic school for high school - most choose to continue homeschooling.  

I don't hear a lot about middle school curriculum choices.  Some kids start outsourcing at least some classes at that age (for my kids, it's foreign language and sometimes English at co-op).  People talk less about it because if you ask what somebody is doing for math they're more likely to say 'Geometry' than a specific program.  From what I've seen, families approach middle school differently.  Some are trying to get certain skills or content in place to make high school easier, while others are looking at those years as the last chance to do mellow school (whether that means fun curriculum like Life of Fred or unschooling or lots of field trips) before they get to the more rigorous record keeping and box checking of high school.  That continues to play out a bit in high school, with some families choosing acceleration so their kids start DE early, while others choose to add more breadth with unconventional classes.  Some families are making choices to let kids get through reasonably rigorous academics but leaving a lot of time for specific interests, like dance or art.    

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Clemsondana said:

Some are trying to get certain skills or content in place to make high school easier, while others are looking at those years as the last chance to do mellow school (whether that means fun curriculum like Life of Fred or unschooling or lots of field trips) before they get to the more rigorous record keeping and box checking of high school.

See, I always felt like being serious in elementary school was a good way to make sure things can stay relatively mellow throughout 😄. I've gotten the sense from this forum that high school is its own kind of beast, but it has always felt like we're aiming our early education at high school over here. 

I don't mean that we do many hours of work per day or anything. But I can't imagine that our schooling will change flavor in high school that much, if we keep homeschooling. It'll be one foot in front of the other, as usual. 

[Clemsondana]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

See, I always felt like being serious in elementary school was a good way to make sure things can stay relatively mellow throughout 😄. I've gotten the sense from this forum that high school is its own kind of beast, but it has always felt like we're aiming our early education at high school over here. 

I don't mean that we do many hours of work per day or anything. But I can't imagine that our schooling will change flavor in high school that much, if we keep homeschooling. It'll be one foot in front of the other, as usual. 

It wasn't a lot of change for us, either, except that everything takes longer.  The adjustment to spending more time on every subject was noticeable for both kids and at times met resistance, but there's just no way to do what we need to do for middle or high in the same amount of time that we spent in elementary.  For families that just do math and English in elementary, there's a transition somewhere along the line where you add in more classes.  In high school, you can integrate subjects together but to graduate with the requisite credits you need at least 6 courses worth of content each year, and the transition to doing that either happens gradually in middle school or abruptly when they start high school.  We always did English/language arts, math, and then units of history or science or whatever, so when we started middle school we just added one more to do both history and science at the same time and then a language at co-op.  But, in middle older did physical science in a way that was fun to them (Life of Fred physics one semester, chem the next, with cartoon guides for each subject, plus the illustrated book 'Elements'), but there's no way to make AP Chem fun in the same way.  Lab reports are rarely fun for anybody, no matter how well-prepared they are, and it's a lot of content so there's a limit to how mellow it can be. 🙂 

For some people, having to get more done feels constraining.  But, I'm finding that we have more out-of-the-house stuff as the kids get older because they aren't so tied to needing a routine that is the same most days.  Older and I talk about our discussion-y content while younger does karate on Tuesday, and older gets up and does online foreign language work on Saturdays before ball practice.  The kids can also do work in the evening, which I never would have done when they were little because I was done by then...but now they have material that they can do without me more than when they were younger.  I tell them that for the most part I want to be done with work that needs me by 2-3, but I don't care what they do as far as scheduling the rest of it.  Older likes to watch videos for their online class while they eat lunch or after dinner, both times that school wasn't an option when I had littles because I was eating or cleaning the kitchen and they needed me.  Even without online class, there is more reading and note-taking for older kids - we don't read everything line-by-line together, so they read and then tell me about it or write a paper. 

But, that being said, it's harder to do the educational field trips that I did with younger kids.  I wouldn't trade the museum and cliff dwelling and cave and aquarium and 'old fashioned village' trips for seat work time, but occasionally the kids will ask when we're going to do something like that again and it's harder to schedule that in our school time now that they are older.  Some of that is due to constraints by their extracurriculars, too - everything is more time-intensive as the kids get older.  I'm a huge fan of road trips, though, so in the summer or over breaks we try to combine something fun with something educational even if it's just something short.  

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm finding that we have more out-of-the-house stuff as the kids get older because they aren't so tied to needing a routine that is the same most days. 

I am waiting with bated breath for this!!

DS has always needed a clean, organized, quiet learning space. He struggles with maintaining his attention if we take lessons on the go, though he is slowly becoming more adaptable. We can now take a chapter book, a review game, a video, or an easier workbook on the road. It may take him a bit longer to get there, but I would really like to be able to take school on the road more! 

[Shoeless]

6 hours ago, mellifera33 said:

Huh, I haven't seen this in my homeschool group, and I kind of feel the opposite way. Maybe I'm not a fun mom with the littles. lol. It's been fascinating to see my young teen's academic interests develop and I find it much more interesting to talk with him about his paper about say, the Iranian Revolution, than to talk to my 8 y/o about her polar bear report. 

Do you live in an area where there is peer pressure from churches or families to homeschool? I can see that being a factor. Mom isn't really into it, but feels pressured. Teaching little kids is easy, but then she doesn't have an intrinsic reason to keep homeschooling into the later grades, and the peer pressure among moms of older kids is less than among moms of littles? I don't know, I just like to brainstorm I guess. 🙂

I don't know about church pressure, but there is a lot of family pressure to homeschool to keep the kids away from "liberal indoctrination". Mom is home with the littles and does lots of fun activities and park days. There's a lot of justification that baking and cookie math is "all they need!" and hikes through the woods count as "science" (I know some people do thorough nature studies for science, but that's not what is happening around here.  Science is literally playing at the river or walking through the woods).  Somewhere around 4th or 5th grade, dad starts to get agitated because the kids spend all day playing, and he realizes that the kids don't really know anything about math. (It's always math where it falls apart). A decision is made to try online curriculum, like Acellus, or have the kids do Ace Paces.  The kids start hitting puberty and grumping that everything stinks: school, park days, social stuff, chores, their siblings, etc.  Kids and mom start fighting, dad gets fed up with the situation, kids get shuffled off to one of the local Christian schools, which mostly hires former homeschool moms as teachers.  I have no idea if that's a better educational experience. At least the kids get Abeka books there? 

Before anyone says "I've never seen anything like that happen here", I am relieved to hear that.  I live in an area that swings toward this extreme. These were the active voices in the local homeschool groups, and the stories were more or less similar. I can think of 5 families like this off the top of my head. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

17 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I don't know about church pressure, but there is a lot of family pressure to homeschool to keep the kids away from "liberal indoctrination". Mom is home with the littles and does lots of fun activities and park days. There's a lot of justification that baking and cookie math is "all they need!" and hikes through the woods count as "science" (I know some people do thorough nature studies for science, but that's not what is happening around here.  Science is literally playing at the river or walking through the woods).  Somewhere around 4th or 5th grade, dad starts to get agitated because the kids spend all day playing, and he realizes that the kids don't really know anything about math. (It's always math where it falls apart). A decision is made to try online curriculum, like Acellus, or have the kids do Ace Paces.  The kids start hitting puberty and grumping that everything stinks: school, park days, social stuff, chores, their siblings, etc.  Kids and mom start fighting, dad gets fed up with the situation, kids get shuffled off to one of the local Christian schools, which mostly hires former homeschool moms as teachers.  I have no idea if that's a better educational experience. At least the kids get Abeka books there? 

Before anyone says "I've never seen anything like that happen here", I am relieved to hear that.  I live in an area that swings toward this extreme. These were the active voices in the local homeschool groups, and the stories were more or less similar. I can think of 5 families like this off the top of my head. 

I’ve seen it a lot over the years. However—we only have one Christian school locally and now it’s 5th-12th grade only(and expensive; however all the teachers are credentialed).  Most of the kids in these situations wind up going to public school and failing miserably.  It’s always a bad situation and reflects poorly on homeschooling. 

[Not_a_Number]

16 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve seen it a lot over the years. However—we only have one Christian school locally and now it’s 5th-12th grade only(and expensive; however all the teachers are credentialed).  Most of the kids in these situations wind up going to public school and failing miserably.  It’s always a bad situation and reflects poorly on homeschooling. 

That sounds really depressing. 

I find it hard enough to find a social group for my kids in NYC, where there's at least a decent chunk of relatively academically-minded homeschoolers. I have no idea what I'd do in the situation you and MissLemon describe... I feel like everything would be a choice between lesser and greater evils. 

[lewelma]

On 6/12/2021 at 5:46 AM, Clemsondana said:

 In high school, you can integrate subjects together but to graduate with the requisite credits you need at least 6 courses worth of content each year,

I think that this is one of the big changes in homeschooling over the years.  Now, people look to have their kids *take* 6 subjects each year. I say *take* because there is a new effort to make it all silo-ed and official -- either through a home-grown list of work to do, or a prepurchased curriculum, or outside homeschool vendors, or dual enrolment. There is no longer the idea that as homeschoolers we can create a learning-environment and let our kids explore their interests and world. And I'm not talking about unschooling here, I'm talking about self-led work and research projects. The old high-school WTM board was about teaching and educational philosophy, the modern high-school board is about clearly defined courses. There has been a major shift over the years in how learning in high school is managed and documented. 

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

That sounds really depressing. 

I find it hard enough to find a social group for my kids in NYC, where there's at least a decent chunk of relatively academically-minded homeschoolers. I have no idea what I'd do in the situation you and MissLemon describe... I feel like everything would be a choice between lesser and greater evils. 

Basically, yes. The last 6 or 7 years have been me biting my tongue so kiddo could have kids to play with.  

[Clemsondana]

10 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think that this is one of the big changes in homeschooling over the years.  Now, people look to have their kids *take* 6 subjects each year. I say *take* because there is a new effort to make it all silo-ed and official -- either through a home-grown list of work to do, or a prepurchased curriculum, or outside homeschool vendors, or dual enrolment. There is no longer the idea that as homeschoolers we can create a learning-environment and let our kids explore their interests and world. And I'm not talking about unschooling here, I'm talking about self-led work and research projects. The old high-school WTM board was about teaching and educational philosophy, the modern high-school board is about clearly defined courses. There has been a major shift over the years in how learning in high school is managed and documented. 

Some of this mindset may be coming from more regulation.  We have to register with an umbrella or the county and turn in our credits.  We can do them however we want - I could do a big research project and report it as science and English, but I have to report 4 Englishes and 3 sciences (2 with labs) in order to graduate in high school.  But, no matter how we do the education part I always have in my head what credit it counts for, even if it's an elective.  My kid is doing a Science Fiction elective this summer and we know people who have designed courses around Science  Olympiad topics, so there is definitely interest-led work happening but you're right that we're always aware of the credits.  

And, for folks who have been writing about struggling to find social groups, one thing we found is that, contrary to what others have posted, it's actually gotten easier as the kids get older.  Between co-op, Science Olympiad, and karate each of my kids now has kids that they've known for years.  Sometimes they don't see each other much in the summer, but that's not too different from my own childhood when you might not see school friends much when school wasn't in session during the elementary school years.  My boy is more OK with having people that he does activities with rather than friends to hang out with, if that makes sense - he'll accept invitations but is happy to stay busy with extracurriculars or books rather than just getting toether...which might change soon, but by then he'll be able to drive.  🙂  My highly sociable girl says yes to most opportunities - church activities, karate multiple days a week, and also has different ways of messaging kids and they pick a day and then check with the moms to see if we can get them together.  She's now in a funny phase of learning that some kids that are fun at an activity aren't necessarily compatible when hanging out at a house...as she said about one friend 'She watches a lot of movies...I don't want to watch movies all the time!'.  🙂  

[Shoeless]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve seen it a lot over the years. However—we only have one Christian school locally and now it’s 5th-12th grade only(and expensive; however all the teachers are credentialed).  Most of the kids in these situations wind up going to public school and failing miserably.  It’s always a bad situation and reflects poorly on homeschooling. 

We have 3 or 4 private Christian schools, plus the local charter school which is basically free Christian school according to locals.  I haven't seen anything awesome come out of any of these schools, educationally-speaking.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I think that this is one of the big changes in homeschooling over the years.  Now, people look to have their kids *take* 6 subjects each year. I say *take* because there is a new effort to make it all silo-ed and official -- either through a home-grown list of work to do, or a prepurchased curriculum, or outside homeschool vendors, or dual enrolment. There is no longer the idea that as homeschoolers we can create a learning-environment and let our kids explore their interests and world. And I'm not talking about unschooling here, I'm talking about self-led work and research projects. The old high-school WTM board was about teaching and educational philosophy, the modern high-school board is about clearly defined courses. There has been a major shift over the years in how learning in high school is managed and documented. 

If we homeschool high school, I simply can't imagine going the route of clearly defined courses. Mostly because I personally DID take clearly defined courses in high school and remember FAR less from them than I remember from the stuff I took the trouble to integrate into my head. All my own learning happened while I did math contest problems or read, which were the things I wanted to do. Everything else went in one ear and out the other. 

Now, we may not homeschool high school for social reasons -- I simply don't know ahead of time. But I know that I'd feel that having things silo-ed would be a loss. 

[Roadrunner]

On 6/9/2021 at 7:58 PM, Kakids said:

And this, correcting with compassion, I can be on board with.
I have just seen the don’t tell a child they’re wrong taken to such extremes that there is no correction of mistakes. That helps almost no one.

As opposed to what? Correcting while screaming? 
Must everything nowadays be infused with feelings?

I just think we make such a big deal out of such small things sometimes. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

As opposed to what? Correcting while screaming? 
Must everything nowadays be infused with feelings?

I just think we make such a big deal out of such small things sometimes. 

I mostly don't correct while screaming 😉 . I will cop to having had that happen in my life, though... 

[lewelma]

I will admit to correcting my younger by screaming occasionally!  But then he usually screams back at which point I realize that screaming is not a particularly effective technique for improving math!  🙂 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

I will admit to correcting my younger by screaming occasionally!  But then he usually screams back at which point I realize that screaming is not a particularly effective technique for improving math!  🙂 

Lol!

Other people’s kids are easier, eh? 

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Lol!

Other people’s kids are easier, eh? 

Oh Definitely!  Math has been a hill that I was willing to die on with my younger. But the dysgraphia made the linear, logical thinking and construction of clear arguments completely impossible for many many years. Plus he is stubborn!

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Oh Definitely!  Math has been a hill that I was willing to die on with my younger. But the dysgraphia made the linear, logical thinking and construction of clear arguments completely impossible for many many years. Plus he is stubborn!

Yes, I know how the stubbornness goes 😂. DD8 is extremely stubborn as well. 

Plus I feel like one just takes things more personally from one's own kids... 

[Zoo Keeper]

On 6/12/2021 at 6:47 PM, lewelma said:

Oh Definitely!  Math has been a hill that I was willing to die on with my younger. But the dysgraphia made the linear, logical thinking and construction of clear arguments completely impossible for many many years. Plus he is stubborn!

Clearly we have twins separated at birth...

I may have "raised my voice" a time or two as well.  😉

Edited September 21, 2021 by Zoo Keeper
can't type and think at the same time...

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

Clearly we have twins separated at birth...

I many have "raised my voice" a time or two as well.  😉

You know, I'm really glad to hear other people admitting to this, lol. Sometimes I feel like a TERRIBLE homeschooling parent. Obviously this doesn't happen that often, but I hate it when it does. 

[theelfqueen]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I will admit to correcting my younger by screaming occasionally!  But then he usually screams back at which point I realize that screaming is not a particularly effective technique for improving math!  🙂 

Yeah I'm gonna admit it too ... I had horrifying battles of will with my middle child over math. Just awful. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, theelfqueen said:

Yeah I'm gonna admit it too ... I had horrifying battles of will with my middle child over math. Just awful. 

Alas, our battles of will have not been restricted to math. Apparently, being academically demanding with a stubborn, stubborn child sometimes yields... sparks 😉 . 

But now she speaks Russian, you know? Ups and downs...