Would you/have you

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

There's plenty of research demonstrating that masks are effective in preventing droplets from reaching another person. I can't understand how that can still be disputed. 

Because for some reason, people are spending their political capital on disputing it. It's not really clear to me why, but here we are. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I’m not going to argue about masking or not masking. My city was very good about masking even when it wasn’t mandated, and I have masked since early March. They do help, but I’m not going to report someone, nor a business, to the state. Nor am I going to confront or lecture someone. 

I’m not even interested in arguing about masking itself, but your premise is faulty. When making such big decisions, you might want to be aware of that.

[Ellie]

12 hours ago, SereneHome said:

I wouldn't report it to the govt! For many reasons, one of which is that I don't think govt should be allowed to mandate it in non-govt businesses in the first place.

I have, however, complained to store managers about their gross employees. But I have done that before Covid also.

I agree, especially when there are so many conflicting reports from equally reputable sources on the efficacy of masking, if authorities hadn't pushed the 10-day-flatten-the-curve mandate to over six months, and if TPTB had similar requirements for everyone (e.g., Disneyland and other California theme parks not allowed to open while airplanes pack passengers in; meanwhile Walt Disney World has been open for a couple of months and there have been no reported cases of c*vid from anyone who has been there).

[RootAnn]

12 hours ago, regentrude said:

How do you feel about food safety laws then? They serve exactly the same purpose: preventing people from getting sick or dying.

By that same logic, the government should not be allowed to mandate safe food handling and storage. I fail to see what's different here.
People are all quite happy the government regulates drug safety, aviation safety, there are building codes etc.

I'm anti-OSHA, anti-NRC, anti-FDA, etc. In practice, I know why they are necessary, but I am not pro-federal interventionism. Ideally, they would not be necessary. Obviously many people don't act decently, but that doesn't stop me from wishing they were not needed.

State or local laws don't bother me nearly as much.

My state & local area does not have a mask mandate. If I were visiting a big city that did, I would not report them. It seems like employees act with the approval of their employer.

I always feel for employees who are doing the right thing but the customers are being obnoxious - as when a customer not only doesn't mask inside a business which has a "masks required" notice up but also harasses the employees for being masked.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

In practice, I know why they are necessary, but I am not pro-federal interventionism. Ideally, they would not be necessary. Obviously many people don't act decently, but that doesn't stop me from wishing they were not needed.

But what’s the point of being against something that’s useful in practice? I’d also like to live in a world where everyone behaves well, but we don’t...

[Hyacinth]

No. 

[SereneHome]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

 

 

Ok, do all of your feel it is too big brother/Farhenheit 451 to report other instances of law breaking? Like, if you knew a restaurant was refusing to keep their meat at safe temperatures, or had up a sign saying they don't care what the government says, they will not require employees to wash hands between using the bathroom and preparing food, etc? Would it be dystopian for a customer to report blatant and willful health code violations? If not, then what is different about Covid health regulations and those regulations?

Well, if there wasn't a law about it I don't think there would be any point in reporting it - what would you report? I'd assume we are taking about reporting a violation of a state or local mask mandate - which has the force of law. If there is no law/mandate, then I agree, no point in reporting anything. 

I am not  a fan of govt mandates in general.

[SKL]

There have been so many violations of health-related rules in businesses over the years, maybe it should be astounding, or maybe it should be obvious.  Do people know how many rules they are?  I mean last night my food was served barely warm, should I report it to the government?  Should I report the fact that there is probably 0% compliance with the rule that dishwashing water be tested 3x per day?

What is it about Covid that has people acting like this?

There are so many other options besides getting Big Brother involved.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Ellie said:

I agree, especially when there are so many conflicting reports from equally reputable sources on the efficacy of masking, if authorities hadn't pushed the 10-day-flatten-the-curve mandate to over six months, and if TPTB had similar requirements for everyone (e.g., Disneyland and other California theme parks not allowed to open while airplanes pack passengers in; meanwhile Walt Disney World has been open for a couple of months and there have been no reported cases of c*vid from anyone who has been there).

No, there are not conflicting reports on the efficacy of masking. All studies show they help. NO studies show they do not, or make it worse. 

And the interesting thing about Disney is that they are requiring masks. And enforcing it. (now, I can't say if anyone got it there or not - contact tracing in this area is abysmal, and if someone is going to Disney they are also going to the store, probably restaurants, etc so there is no way to tell where they got it anyway)

[RootAnn]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

But what’s the point of being against something that’s useful in practice? I’d also like to live in a world where everyone behaves well, but we don’t...

I've seen how the big government agencies act in practice and I'm no fan of their "usefulness." 

I'm idealistic but realistic. These behemoths will never go away now. I was pointing out that, like @SereneHome, I am against federal mandates (though she she said "government") in general & not just a specific one in this case.

I, personally, don't mind when local governments take these stands because I have more sway with political decisions the smaller the population. My town, for example, is just over 3,000 people. I know the mayor (goes to my church), the city council members (my boy's baseball coach, another taught homeschool gym for years), the school board members (one is my neighbor, another helps w/ my dd's non-profit), and the state representative for my district (she was a life guard at the local pool as recently as 3 years ago & her mom is one of my bankers). There are perks to small town living, I guess.

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

 

 

Ok, do all of your feel it is too big brother/Farhenheit 451 to report other instances of law breaking? Like, if you knew a restaurant was refusing to keep their meat at safe temperatures, or had up a sign saying they don't care what the government says, they will not require employees to wash hands between using the bathroom and preparing food, etc? Would it be dystopian for a customer to report blatant and willful health code violations? If not, then what is different about Covid health regulations and those regulations?

 

I would not report restaurants in those situations--if they post such a sign and customers want to eat there, then the customer is making the choice to do so.  

[Bootsie]

I wouldn't report a business to a government agency or law enforcement officials; I would simply stop visiting that business.  

I did complain at the local post office; if it is a government office I think I have a right as a citizen to have the workers complying.  And, there are some things for which I can't simply take my business elsewhere and vote with my feet and dollars.  

I am not going in places but the grocery store much, and there has been good compliance there.  I did complain to the store management recently when two masked women were in the produce section with their giant snake.

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I've seen how the big government agencies act in practice and I'm no fan of their "usefulness."

I think most big entities are not very efficient... that doesn’t mean they don’t do any good. 

As I said, when I went back to Ukraine, no one wore seatbelts. I’d guess seatbelt laws have something to do with why people wear them here. 

I think it’s reasonable to talk about trade offs. However, there’s no reason to assume they do no good.

[I talk to the trees]

I got an online survey after one of my grocery pickups, and did mention that the employee's mask was down (on their chin, not covering mouth or nose) in the “tell us how we can improve” section. But I haven’t called the health department on any of the many violations I have seen. I figure it is pointless to do so, because the businesses that actually care about people are enforcing mask wearing already, and businesses that don’t are going to be ugly or potentially violent about it. 

[Bootsie]

16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think most big entities are not very efficient... that doesn’t mean they don’t do any good. 

As I said, when I went back to Ukraine, no one wore seatbelts. I’d guess seatbelt laws have something to do with why people wear them here. 

I think it’s reasonable to talk about trade offs. However, there’s no reason to assume they do no good.

Is it because there are seat belt laws people wear seat belts?  Or, is it because people in the US generally believe seat belts are helpful/useful that they were accepting of a law requiring their use?  

[Ellie]

53 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

No, there are not conflicting reports on the efficacy of masking. All studies show they help. NO studies show they do not, or make it worse. 

And the interesting thing about Disney is that they are requiring masks. And enforcing it. (now, I can't say if anyone got it there or not - contact tracing in this area is abysmal, and if someone is going to Disney they are also going to the store, probably restaurants, etc so there is no way to tell where they got it anyway)

I don't know what it is I've been reading, then, that said that masks don't help. It isn't even logical to imagine that those cloth masks can keep out serious viruses.

[Wheres Toto]

15 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Is it because there are seat belt laws people wear seat belts?  Or, is it because people in the US generally believe seat belts are helpful/useful that they were accepting of a law requiring their use?  

Judging by the number of people who threw a fit when seat belt laws started, as well as how often they have to do campaigns about it, I'd say it's because of the law. 

A friend of mine's daughter, 17 years old, under 5 feet tall, works at a store and masks are required around here.  She had to ask someone (wearing a mask promoting a particular candidate around their chin) to pull their mask up and the guy walked up and blew in her face before leaving.   Crap like that is why some people need to be reported. 

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Ellie said:

I don't know what it is I've been reading, then, that said that masks don't help. It isn't even logical to imagine that those cloth masks can keep out serious viruses.

I don't know what you are reading either. I've sat down and spent a good amount of time trying to find ANYTHING that shows they don't help. I can't. 

And I can't imagine that it is logical to say that a few layers of cloth don't contain some of the droplets expelled from your nose and mouth. I mean, that's why we tell people to cover a sneeze or cough, to contain those droplets. Most virus particles are attached to the droplets, so even though th virus is small enough to pass through, if it is stuck to a droplet, and the droplet is too big to pass through, the virus is contained as well. 

[Murphy101]

22 hours ago, fifiruth said:

No, I have not, and I won’t. Ratting out businesses to the gov. is too communist or Big Brother for me. If you don’t feel safe somewhere, don’t go there.

Whatever about big brother and communist. Everyone says this but it’s just BS. Because that attitude about policy demands people be exposed first to find out they shouldn’t go there to avoid exposure.  Which is just ridiculous.

I would report an establishment that openly refuses to follow health department guidelines. Because that’s just nasty and reckless and they shouldn’t be in business. And of course I would not do business with them again either.

Having health department guidelines is not communist or big brother.  Neither is demanding that establishments follow those guidelines.

 

 

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Whatever about big So,brother and communist. Everyone says this but it’s just BS. Because that attitude about policy demands people be exposed first to find out they shouldn’t go there to avoid exposure.  Which is just ridiculous.

I would report an establishment that openly refuses to follow health department guidelines. Because that’s just nasty and reckless and they shouldn’t be in business. And of course I would not do business with them again either.

Having health department guidelines is not communist or big brother.  Neither is demanding that establishments follow those guidelines.

 

 

Would you report a lemonade stand the neighborhood kids have?  Would you report the covered dish dinner at the local church?  What about the homebaked cookies served with coffee between church services?  The high school bake sale?  All of those are violation of health code in my area.  

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Would you report a lemonade stand the neighborhood kids have?  Would you report the covered dish dinner at the local church?  What about the homebaked cookies served with coffee between church services?  The high school bake sale?  All of those are violation of health code in my area.  

What area doesn't allow potlucks? A quick google seems to show they are exempt pretty much everywhere as long as they are items brought from home, and not using a commercial kitchen. 

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Would you report a lemonade stand the neighborhood kids have?  Would you report the covered dish dinner at the local church?  What about the homebaked cookies served with coffee between church services?  The high school bake sale?  All of those are violation of health code in my area.  

A) those are not businesses and most health departments literally have different guidelines to reflect that.

B) depends. If the parish had a policy that the group gathering was not adhering to, I’d try to politely remind them of the policy and that we are obligated to obey that policy. If they refuse, then absolutely I’d bring it to the attention of someone higher up. If I was asked why suddenly my family of 13 that normally attended just about everything hasn’t been around? I’d be honest. There are people in my household it is important to reduce exposure risk for and since those activities don’t seem to care about those people’s health - we understand they don’t care about us, so we stayed home.

C) again, it’s ridiculous to say that people have to expose themselves to find out where they shouldn’t go due to exposure risk. That’s reckless and foolish and not much to respect in that stance. Do we say that for anything else?  What about hepatitis, food poisoning?

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Ellie said:

I don't know what it is I've been reading, then, that said that masks don't help. It isn't even logical to imagine that those cloth masks can keep out serious viruses.

What would keep out viruses, then? 

[Robin M]

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, do all of your feel it is too big brother/Farhenheit 451 to report other instances of law breaking? Like, if you knew a restaurant was refusing to keep their meat at safe temperatures, or had up a sign saying they don't care what the government says, they will not require employees to wash hands between using the bathroom and preparing food, etc? Would it be dystopian for a customer to report blatant and willful health code violations? If not, then what is different about Covid health regulations and those regulations?

No it isn't dystopian for a customer to report blatant and willful health code violations especially in the scenarios you've mentioned.  That sort of blatant disregard for the employees and/or customers directly affects people leading to food poisoning etc.  The health and safety regulations are federally mandated vs Covid doesn't have any national standards.  It's different in every state.  California is much more stringent and has included Covid regulations and the wearing of masks so  in the given scenario of a restaurant they would be fined and given a conditional pass and given 24 - 48 hours to enforce mask wearing or be shut down unless they enforced it.   There are a couple restaurants in a town near us that opened and refused to wear masks or had signs up to that regard and they were forced to shut down.  In this instance they were so blatant about it, advertising the fact, that the press got involved.

[Spryte]

No, I haven’t reported.  But probably should have.

I won’t be returning to our long term dentist though.  Had to have something fixed, walked in and all seemed well.  Everyone masked, etc.  Work finished, walked out to desk to pay, and no one was in a mask.  6 employees.  One kept walking within 3 feet of me, the others were behind plexiglass with a 6 inch by 4 foot gap for me to pass my card through, but wide open areas within 2-3 ft on both sides of plexiglass.  I was not impressed.  We have a mask mandate here.  
 

 

[Bootsie]

59 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

What area doesn't allow potlucks? A quick google seems to show they are exempt pretty much everywhere as long as they are items brought from home, and not using a commercial kitchen. 

In a major city I have lived in in Texas they are illegal.  In many areas there is something that occurs that is a violation of local code; in some areas the potluck (with food prepared in a non-commercial kitchen( isn't allowed in a church if the church has a commercial kitchen; in some areas if the youth group has a bake sale alongside the potluck it is a code violation.  In some places if any suggested donation is collected it is a violation.  

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, DorothyNJ said:

Judging by the number of people who threw a fit when seat belt laws started, as well as how often they have to do campaigns about it, I'd say it's because of the law. 

Agreed. I was pretty young at the time, but I remember friends complaining about it, probably because their parents did. And weird reasons, like “it’d take longer to get out of a burning car”. It is true that it’d be much quicker to get out by being tossed through the windshield on impact.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

A) those are not businesses and most health departments literally have different guidelines to reflect that.

B) depends. If the parish had a policy that the group gathering was not adhering to, I’d try to politely remind them of the policy and that we are obligated to obey that policy. If they refuse, then absolutely I’d bring it to the attention of someone higher up. If I was asked why suddenly my family of 13 that normally attended just about everything hasn’t been around? I’d be honest. There are people in my household it is important to reduce exposure risk for and since those activities don’t seem to care about those people’s health - we understand they don’t care about us, so we stayed home.

C) again, it’s ridiculous to say that people have to expose themselves to find out where they shouldn’t go due to exposure risk. That’s reckless and foolish and not much to respect in that stance. Do we say that for anything else?  What about hepatitis, food poisoning?

How is a lemonade stand not a business?  A high school bake sale may not be a business, but food poisoning from an item purchased at a bake sale is just as serious as food poisoning from an item purchased elsewhere.  It does not make logical sense to me to report a food/health violation of code (and these things are often violations of code) for some offenses and not others.  

[rebcoola]

I don't think anyone here is talking about reporting businesses for one or two people unmasked, or any small violation of any health code rules.  There is a line where most would report a restaurant or business if it was nasty. I think there is a line to report for COVID mandates when it's a blatant disregard for the rules.

Edited October 25, 2020 by rebcoola

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

Is it because there are seat belt laws people wear seat belts?  Or, is it because people in the US generally believe seat belts are helpful/useful that they were accepting of a law requiring their use?  

People wear seatbelts because of the law. Period. Zero doubt. No matter the recommendations or suggestions or manufacture installs - the numbers of people who actually wore seatbelts was negligible until it became law in my state. 

3 hours ago, Ellie said:

I don't know what it is I've been reading, then, that said that masks don't help. It isn't even logical to imagine that those cloth masks can keep out serious viruses.

Whatever you were reading is garbage. 

This is kindergarten science. We can discuss that some masks are more effective than others. That is absolutely true. 

But that viral exposure is reduced is simply a scientific fact.

Why do we cough or sneeze into a tissue or our elbow?  Because it’s well known that reduces viral spread compared to just letting lose without any cover or deflection at all. 

There has never been any doubt that eventually everyone will have had Covid. The purpose of masks are to reduce spread speed so that people who need medical care have a chance to access it. Vs being so overloaded that they die from lack of care.

This also benefits commerce!  A slow spread means that entire businesses have a chance to stay open vs closing bc there’s no healthy people to work it. Or because people don’t have confidence risk reduction measures will be taken. 

I worry a lot less about getting Covid than I do about people getting it and not being able to access medical care if they need it.

And since some people are now reporting catching Covid twice, and the second time being even worse?  That concern is even higher.

Covid isn’t going away anytime soon. Italy is suffering a third round now.  It’s time we accept some things are going to be a new normal.  And that if the new normal, a bit of distance and a mask isn’t all that onerous.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Murphy101

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

And since some people are now reporting catching Covid twice, and the second time being even worse?  That concern is even higher.

I had the impression this was still uncommon enough to assume that there's usually immunity. 

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I had the impression this was still uncommon enough to assume that there's usually immunity. 

Right now everything is slow slogging through data. 
Same goes for the many people who seem to have lingering affects from Covid. 
 

It’s going to a very long time before we have enough of the data we’ll organized enough to be definitive about what is correlation and what is causation. That’s why doing what we do know works is all the more important. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Murphy101

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

Right now everything is slow slogging through data. 
Same goes for the many people who seem to have lingering affects from Covid. 
 

It’s going to a very long time before we have enough of the data we’ll organized enough to be definitive about what is correlation and what is causation. 

Yeah, I'm just going by the fact that EVERYONE is interested in this, and the number of cases reported is still, like, 20 out of millions of infections. So at the moment, it looks to me like it's probably thankfully unlikely. 

I agree with you about long haulers -- I don't think we know nearly enough 😞 . Did you see the "long Covid" thread? Data's starting to come out, I believe. 

[Wheres Toto]

22 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

People wear seatbelts because of the law. Period. Zero doubt. No matter the recommendations or suggestions or manufacture installs - the numbers of people who actually wore seatbelts was negligible until it became law in my state. 

Whatever you were reading is garbage. 

This is kindergarten science. We can discuss that some masks are more effective than others. That is absolutely true. 

But that viral exposure is reduced is simply a scientific fact.

Why do we cough or sneeze into a tissue or our elbow?  Because it’s well known that reduces viral spread compared to just letting lose without any cover or deflection at all. 

There has never been any doubt that eventually everyone will have had Covid. The purpose of masks are to reduce spread speed so that people who need medical care have a chance to access it. Vs being so overloaded that they die from lack of care.

This also benefits commerce!  A slow spread means that entire businesses have a chance to stay open vs closing bc there’s no healthy people to work it. Or because people don’t have confidence risk reduction measures will be taken. 

I worry a lot less about getting Covid than I do about people getting it and not being able to access medical care if they need it.

And since some people are now reporting catching Covid twice, and the second time being even worse?  That concern is even higher.

Covid isn’t going away anytime soon. Italy is suffering a third round now.  It’s time we accept some things are going to be a new normal.  And that if the new normal, a bit of distance and a mask isn’t all that onerous.

Not to mention, if you do get it, your viral load is likely to be less if you've been masking and around others who are masking, therefore you are less likely to get serious sick.   

I am trying to not get it.  I think it may be possible for some people to not get it, with proper precautions.   If I do get it, I want to do what I can to up my chances of having a mild case. 

[RootAnn]

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I had the impression this was still uncommon enough to assume that there's usually immunity. 

I think temporary immunity is assumed. If immunity lasts a few months for most (but maybe not all) people, it would make sense that we would be starting to see more re-infections now that this has been going on this long. I read an article that more & more people have seen their antibodies go from robust to undetectable (al least as far as the Red Cross test shows).

[Not_a_Number]

38 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I think temporary immunity is assumed. If immunity lasts a few months for most (but maybe not all) people, it would make sense that we would be starting to see more re-infections now that this has been going on this long. I read an article that more & more people have seen their antibodies go from robust to undetectable (al least as far as the Red Cross test shows).

Yeah, I’ve seen that. I think the question is whether other sorts of immunity kick in.

[Katy]

The only people I’ve heard of who reported stuff like this are employees reporting their bosses and companies who want to create a paper trail of evidence. High risk employees required to come in to work despite it being no adjustment whatsoever for them to work from home, simply a manager preference.
 

This company even forced people who were working from home for years as a reasonable accommodation due to immune conditions to come back in after employees died.  Mostly because the local manager thinks this whole virus is a political stunt. 
 

It and the risks discussed were well documented and cc’d to friends and family members to prepare for a wrongful death lawsuit in this company where several others had already died and such lawsuits were already pending. One person had even collapsed at work and had to be life flighted over two hours away because the paramedics knew closer hospitals couldn’t help a slender man in his 30’s with oxygen that low. When the employees CC’d their response and mentioned they were forwarding this communication to family members and their attorney corporate magically got involved and over-rode the local manager. 
 

I know about it because a family member works there. I can’t disclose the company but it’s one you’ve all heard of. These details never hit the media.  Not DH’s company, who’s been very responsible (for the benefit of the few of you who know who he works for).