WWYD if elderly parents' cleaning person told unbelievable stories?

[Acadie]

Struggled with the title for this thread. My parents, who are in their 80s, really like and feel protective of the person who has cleaned their home for a couple years. She's told them stories about her family and identity that don't pass the sniff test for me and my three siblings. The stories involve a history of emotional abuse from her parents, extraordinary wealth not shared by her parents with her, and family connections to events that are current news stories, both local and international. Also a giant family mansion on a hill that my mom expressed interest in driving by to see, and now magically has been sold. My internet search shows an address in a different town, very modest home. 

At best, I think she's a fabulist. At worst, I'm afraid she could hurt my parents or scam them into giving her a loan or financial gift, or steal their identities, cash, or financial information. The stories have become increasingly intense, and the narrative is honest, goodhearted woman who has been abandoned by her incredibly wealthy and messed up family and may need help. 

One of my sisters lives 1 1/2 hours away from my folks. The rest of us are many hours' drive away. We thought this cleaning person was very concerned about coronavirus and seriously isolating at home, and thus was an ideal person to continue cleaning for them, but now I'm questioning that along with everything else. Talking with my sibs tonight about how to proceed, and here are some concerns we've already discussed:

--My folks really like and trust her. We'll need to do some work persuading them she's not trustworthy. 

--We have no evidence she's stolen anything, but on the other hand no one is going into their home, at this point, except her, and my Dad is having memory issues. My folks clear out of the area where she's cleaning, and they don't lock their file cabinet despite repeated attempts to get them to do so. 

--I'm concerned about tipping her off that we're suspicious, and also concerned about their safety regardless of whether they let her go or not. They're in an isolated spot.

--In terms of practical actions, we've thought of checking and freezing their credit, installing a security camera, hiring a private investigator to check her identity through public records...ugh, I'm just lost

--Her stories of local family members involve very low level crime, and the international story could potentially be connected with organized crime. My first thought is it's delusions of grandeur and wanting to be connected with current news stories, but this is a rural area with strong ties to a nearby urban area, with lots of people historically moving back and forth. Many people with the same last name in the area. It's not where I grew up, so I don't have a history or social connections in the area--my folks moved there ten years ago.

ETA: my Dad found her originally, a couple years ago. At this point, sibs and I would be involved in hiring anyone to help them, so we're in the midst of that difficult transition away from independence and autonomy. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Acadie

[Selkie]

How often is she in their home? Could the sibling who lives closest make a point of being there on a fairly regular basis when this person is there? Seems like it would be a good idea to let her know that someone is keeping an eye on the situation.

[gardenmom5]

I think you're right to listen to your gut.  Can you install cameras with motion sensors?  preferably ones that will upload video to you children so you can view it.   If you get video of her stealing - you not only have proof to show your parents, you have video evidence to show the police.

no one has to tell her the cameras are tehre.  since your parents trust her so much, I'm not even sure I'd tell them for fear they'd tell her.

[gardenmom5]

has anyone ever done a real background check on her?

[klmama]

14 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

has anyone ever done a real background check on her?

This.    

[Acadie]

28 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

has anyone ever done a real background check on her?

 

No. This is among the things we're talking about. 

I don't even know how to do a background check, like who can do them, and if it requires the person's social security number or what. Any info or experience appreciated!

[Jean in Newcastle]

7 minutes ago, Acadie said:

 

No. This is among the things we're talking about. 

I don't even know how to do a background check, like who can do them, and if it requires the person's social security number or what. Any info or experience appreciated!

If you mean a criminal background check then yes, it requires the person's social security number.  And in my state, it is required that you notify the person ahead of time in writing that you are doing a criminal background check.  (This might vary by state law.)

[katilac]

On the plus side, she would really have to be playing the long game if she's been there for a couple of years already and nothing's happened yet. 

Regarding background check: this can be tricky, because you are supposed to get consent when running a background check in an employment situation. I've had lots of background checks and I've always had to give consent. So you can absolutely do it, but not without her knowledge. There are different types and levels of background checks. Those that require fingerprints are obviously the ones more likely to let you know if the person uses different names and such. 

You can talk to them about freezing credit, and there's also a fraud alert you can enable if a freeze is too onerous. 

You can poke around social media. 

If this is an informal arrangement, you might be able to convince your parents they need someone bonded and insured for liability purposes. 

38 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

no one has to tell her the cameras are tehre.  since your parents trust her so much, I'm not even sure I'd tell them for fear they'd tell her.

That would not be legal. In some places, you will also need to tell the housekeeper, it varies. 

 

[Lecka]

Do they want to give someone a power of attorney?  

Would they want to give someone power of attorney to be on their bank accounts and things like that?

My sister has POA for my dad's bank account, and they bank at the same bank, so it's easy for her to check his when she checks hers.  And she also helps him pay his bills (from his account).  

I helped to set it up, it involved going to the bank with my Dad, getting the form, and having him sign it in front of a notary.  

We did this for all of his stuff, and closed a bunch of accounts, after my step-mom died.  My two out-of-town sisters and I did everything we could while we were there, and then everything else has been left to my in-town sister.  

She has his POA stuff and his medical directive stuff.  

He agreed he needed this help.

 Anyway -- my sister could monitor his bank account and probably she could do a credit check if she was worried about fraud.  

When I was helping him, he did not know how to do some things anymore, that he would have been able to do himself 5 years ago, so he is happy to have the help and not have to worry about it.  

 

 

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

we're in the midst of that difficult transition away from independence and autonomy. 

Just for you to consider...what are the medium-term and long-term plans for your parents? Any chance they're planning to move to be closer to one of you at some point? Could an argument be made that, in light of the Covid situation, that time has come earlier than expected? No relation to the cleaner at all, no need to investigate her or cast aspersions, just a different stage in life, which happens to remove her from their lives. 

And, if this stuff is on the horizon anyway, I'd make sure one of you siblings has power of attorney, and is listed on bank accounts, and is visiting frequently, if your parents will be comfortable with all that. If they really trust this woman, and their judgement is slipping, she could maneuver to be the one who is in that position.

[Lecka]

Personally -- I think if you are concerned of their ability to manage their own affairs, focus on that.  This woman might be really nice to them.  And then I think if you (or a sibling) were doing credit checks and monitoring their accounts, it would probably be something where you could intervene.

But if you are concerned, and the nearest adult child is 90 minutes away, you never know when there could be something come up and something questionable happens.  It could be something not even on your radar right now.  

[Selkie]

Re. background checks, find out if the county has online court records. In our county, it is all online. You can find out everything from traffic tickets to felonies.

[Lecka]

I want to say we needed a POA specifically for his doctor?  Or something for his doctor?  That is what we *really* need.  Because he does not keep track of his appointments very well or what the doctor has told him.  

Now my sister just goes with him and sets up his appointments, anyway.

But at the time we were setting things up, the medical information was what we *really* needed to get lined up.

We found a medication that he said wasn't his, but it had his name on it, and he had no memory that it was his medication or that he was supposed to be taking it.  Pretty not-good stuff!  My step-mom had been taking care of all of this before she died.  

Edit:  It turned out the medication was something he had been prescribed but then the doctor said he didn't need to take it anymore -- so it turned out he WAS taking what he was supposed to take.  But that is why the medical seemed like the most urgent, because until that paperwork was done we did not really have a way to know if he was supposed to be taking this medication or if he was really taking his medication properly (and we worried he was taking his medication improperly).  

Edited June 16, 2020 by Lecka

[StaceyinLA]

Well, knowing a couple of elderly people (relatives of family members’ spouses) who have had some serious harm done by well-meaning “help,” I’d get on top of it sooner rather than later in any way possible. The damage done could be irreparable.

[Laurie]

I would be worried about what she might do or has already done.

How often is she in your parents' home?  Does she drive them to places like the bank or grocery store and perhaps is getting them to buy her little things here and there and giving her extra money?  I think it's a bad sign that they feel protective of her.

Does she have a key to their home?  (I'd change the locks if she does and only give them one key.  When we changed our doorknobs we went to a locksmith place...we only got a certain number of keys for family members and the key is some kind that isn't supposed to be duplicated.)

When my grandmother was living in a nursing home,  the lady in the next room was being targeted by a volunteer at the home and then she started working on my grandmother, too.   The woman was promising to bring them to live with her and she wanted very badly to see my grandmother's home but luckily my mom was holding the keys due to my grandmother's memory problems.  It was a huge mess and a restraining order was necessary.   But I understand about the loyalty/protective stuff...my mom asked the nursing home's pastor to try to explain the danger and my grandmother accused him of being unchristian!  

I'm so sorry that you and your siblings have this to worry about!  

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Laurie said:

 Does she have a key to their home?  (I'd change the locks if she does and only give them one key.  When we changed our doorknobs we went to a locksmith place...we only got a certain number of keys for family members and the key is some kind that isn't supposed to be duplicated.)

My parents are also in their 80s. They would slap me into next week if I tried to change their locks and only give them one key 😂

I know everyone wants to help the OP help her parents, but there are a lot of things that can't be done without their permission. Even if you have power of attorney, that doesn't give you the right to change locks or install cameras or do lots of other things without clearing it with them. 

I agree with Lecka that it's probably best to focus on their overall ability to manage their affairs. Talk about the kind of help they're willing to accept. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Would you parents agree to let someone else handle their financial affairs on their behalf via a financial power of attorney?  That would take the load off of them, and prevent any scams.  It would require an entirely trustworthy attorney in fact, whether it’s a family member or a bank trust department person or an independent paid fiduciary.  That can be tricky, and it’s important to think it through, but sometimes it works out extremely well for all concerned.

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

My parents are also in their 80s. They would slap me into next week if I tried to change their locks and only give them one key 😂

I know everyone wants to help the OP help her parents, but there are a lot of things that can't be done without their permission. Even if you have power of attorney, that doesn't give you the right to change locks or install cameras or do lots of other things without clearing it with them. 

 

I wasn't clear.   I was thinking that it would be good to change the locks if the cleaning woman has a key...and if the parents only get one key that can't be duplicated then hopefully the woman wouldn't try to borrow a spare key and be able to get in the house when she knows they're away.  But I was assuming the parents would be in on it and agree to the change.  

[LucyStoner]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think you're right to listen to your gut.  Can you install cameras with motion sensors?  preferably ones that will upload video to you children so you can view it.   If you get video of her stealing - you not only have proof to show your parents, you have video evidence to show the police.

no one has to tell her the cameras are tehre.  since your parents trust her so much, I'm not even sure I'd tell them for fear they'd tell her.

They can not install cameras in their parent's home for the purposes of surveillance without the parent's consent unless they have been found unfit to make their own financial and care decisions and such responsibility has been legally granted to one of more of the adult children. to make that decisions.  An elder abuse agency would tell you that that is abuse, as is trying to get them found unfit if they don't agree to the plan.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by LucyStoner

[katilac]

1 minute ago, Laurie said:

I wasn't clear.   I was thinking that it would be good to change the locks if the cleaning woman has a key...and if the parents only get one key that can't be duplicated then hopefully the woman wouldn't try to borrow a spare key and be able to get in the house when she knows they're away.  But I was assuming the parents would be in on it and agree to the change.  

Gotcha 👍

My parents are active enough that they definitely each need to have a key, not sure about the OP. 

It's potentially a good precaution, but the lack of a key is pretty easy to circumvent if you have regular access to the inside of the house. That's assuming she would even need to get into the house when they weren't there, which she would really only need to do for an old-fashioned burglary. If she's planning fraud or whatnot, it sounds like she has plenty of easy access to documents and such without supervision. 

 

[gardenmom5]

33 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

You might also be amazed at what a diligent google search turns up. 

This.

I was looking up an address - and was quite shocked at what I very unexpectedly found.  Completely shocked.  and saddened.  (a happier one was the one of my paternal grandmother's cousins - I wanted information for genealogy. the woman would just not turn up on any search. I had fully expected to get a SSDI hit, but no.  nowhere.  until one day her obit turned up.  she'd died in the previous  year at age 100+. - but I found her!)

variations of names, locations, there's a lot you can find online.  boolean searches will return more options.

[LucyStoner]

You have every reason to be concerned.  Unfortunately, unless their ability to care for themselves and make their own decisions is impaired to the point you can get a court order, there may not be a lot you can do unless you can convince them that this women is not safe or as done something untrustworthy.  I am going through a similar experience right now with my dad and a woman he thinks is his friend but who is really just a grifter who preys on poor old men without a lot of social options.  His dementia hasn't progressed to the point to get a court order and he's past just being forgetful.  I have been in touch with Adult Protective Services and an elder law attorney.  

[Alicia64]

A billion years ago I was a licensed therapist. Not knowing anybody in this scenario, it sounds like you're describing a "borderline" personality disorder. (You can Google it for the scoop on borderline.)

We were taught in school that Glenn Close portrayed a borderline personalty disorder in the movie "Fatal Attraction." Essentially these people have terrible boundaries and often up their game as they go forward in a relationship.

Keep in mind, I could be totally wrong.

At your parents' ages, my concern is that they're vulnerable to a person w/ these issues. The reason your siblings and yourself are clued in to her is because you guys are so much younger and have all of your mental faculties. (I know my wonderful grandma -- who was a tightwad all her life -- started giving away money in her 80s.)

My thought? Send her packing.

Alley

Edited June 16, 2020 by Alicia64
Should never type fast.

[sassenach]

Start with the DPOA for medical and financial. We're going through this right now with FIL and we're basically just telling him that we would like to take some things off his plate, we want him to be able to relax, we want to make sure that his things stay in order...all true, but short of saying that we're worried that he doesn't have the ability to manage his life anymore.

Then I would have one of the kids be there on the day the cleaning lady arrives. Tell her that you've heard so much about her life, and that your parents tell you everything. Maintain eye contact. Hand her a background check and tell her that now that you kids are stepping into managing things for your parents, you just need some standard paperwork. Why do you need it? "Oh, it's just standard." If she puts up a fight, that would be more red flags. If she doesn't, then maybe she's just an entertainer at heart.

You can communicate a lot through eye contact and tone of voice, like "I'm not buying your BS" and "we have our eye on you."

[prairiewindmomma]

16 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Start with the DPOA for medical and financial. We're going through this right now with FIL and we're basically just telling him that we would like to take some things off his plate, we want him to be able to relax, we want to make sure that his things stay in order...all true, but short of saying that we're worried that he doesn't have the ability to manage his life anymore.

Then I would have one of the kids be there on the day the cleaning lady arrives. Tell her that you've heard so much about her life, and that your parents tell you everything. Maintain eye contact. Hand her a background check and tell her that now that you kids are stepping into managing things for your parents, you just need some standard paperwork. Why do you need it? "Oh, it's just standard." If she puts up a fight, that would be more red flags. If she doesn't, then maybe she's just an entertainer at heart.

You can communicate a lot through eye contact and tone of voice, like "I'm not buying your BS" and "we have our eye on you."

This. We did this. Turns out the housekeeper HAD been stealing, and from several of her other clients.

[prairiewindmomma]

The other thing you could push is that you want to hire someone licensed and bonded so that if the cleaner got injured or things were stolen at their property they would be protected.

[prairiewindmomma]

Forgot to mention, the Arlo cameras are pretty good. You can actually do 24/7 recording into the cloud so you have video and sound proof of what may or may not be happening. If you set one at the door, you can do a motion alert to of when someone is coming and going out of the house.

[LucyStoner]

DPOA is a good idea but unless the parents voluntarily agree to it, it takes a lot to get such authority on behalf of someone else.  Taking surveillance or other steps without the explicit permission of the parents is not respectful and opens the kids up to being accused of elder abuse themselves.  The people who manipulate elders like this know how to keep their actions just on one side of legal.  One of the only things to do is to become a more regular physical presence in their lives and see if you can't convince them that she's untrustworthy or see if you can render the situation moot y encouraging the parents to relocate closer to their kids.  Being 90 minutes away is hard.  That said, people in their 80s are often vulnerable to this stuff before they have reached the point that they aren't capable of managing their own affairs and if they don't want to move or fire her, that is likely still their decision to make.   

Edited June 17, 2020 by LucyStoner