“Martial Law” confusion

[Ginevra]

So there’s a rumor floating around here in the DC-metro region that tomorrow (Monday), Hogan is going to “declare martial law.” The people I know who are saying this seem to be thinking of a Panem sort of tyrannical dictatorship. I mean - I guess. Some are posting pictures of National Guard vehicles either on the road “moving out”, or stationed somewhere, like the streets of Baltimore. 

I don’t get what the big deal is. I think Maryland is about to get the strictest order yet - Shelter in Place. Maryland has been towards the front of all the restrictive mandates and so it’s not difficult to imagine we’re about to adopt this one, too. Also, though, when Hogan issued the order to go to carry-out only for food service places, and closing bars, casinos, etc., he specifically said he was activating the National Guard (5,000, IIRC) and that the restrictions “carry the full weight of the law.” IOW, I think we are already under “martial law.” At present, the law we’re under is: we can go to grocery stores or other life-sustaining places. That’s it. 

So. Does anyone want to discuss this? Are you hearing similar rumors? Am I not understanding the situation we are already in? 

PS.: One of the people I know making hysterical warnings about “martial law” was urging everyone to take their money out of banks because it’s “about to get confiscated.” 

[Tree Frog]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

PS.: One of the people I know making hysterical warnings about “martial law” was urging everyone to take their money out of banks because it’s “about to get confiscated.” 

Off topic, but this is one of the things I've been concerned about. If everyone panics and tries to take their money out of the bank, there will be mass chaos.

I've not heard any chattering about martial law here. 

[ScoutTN]

I suspect OKBud is correct about many Americans' understanding.

BUT, when I saw a photo of businesses  (small shops and restaurants some place picturesque) closing up with armed National Guardsmen standing by, I had a strong, visceral reaction. Fierce and almost sick at my stomach. 

There is something independent and even rebellious deeply and thoroughly woven into the American psyche and culture. Latent or harnessed for good most of the time, but also potentially explosive.

I think most people are complying willingly because they are afraid and basically law-abiding. But if the economic situation becomes disastrous over many months and the medical situation is not insanely out of control, I think people will push back. Then what? 

How far does a governor's (or state legislature's) authority in times of official emergency go? Does it suspend Constitutional right to assembly?

(Jokingly) Texas might secede, if this thing thing isn't handled right.

[ScoutTN]

4 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

Off topic, but this is one of the things I've been concerned about. If everyone panics and tries to take their money out of the bank, there will be mass chaos.

I've not heard any chattering about martial law here. 

A run on TP can become a run on the bank. Same thought process.

Edited March 22, 2020 by ScoutTN

[mommyoffive]

I haven't heard of rumors in our state.  However we have an amory in our town and in the past 2 days the national guard troops have been gathering there to get set to help with Covid-19.  Not sure in what way.

[happypamama]

Quill, DH and I are wondering about all of that too.  What exactly IS the difference between "only go to life-sustaining businesses" and "shelter in place?"  We are at only life-sustaining businesses here in PA right now, and IDK what would actually be different if we went to shelter in place.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Calmer voices need to make themselves heard. Educate on how the state is trying to flatten the curb. Educate on how the National Guard has a long history of providing help and support in times of disaster. Educate on how the banks are still safe.  Educate on how we have plenty of food in our country. Calm your own fears by slowing down and thinking things through. Panic and disinformation are not our friends. 

[Sherry in OH]

In Arkansas National Guard doctors and medics have been assigned to hospitals and medical research centers.    As far as guards patrolling the streets, yes, it will happen.  The Guard will be called to take the places of first responders who are ill or quarantined.  That is one of their functions.    

 

 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

So there’s a rumor floating around here in the DC-metro region that tomorrow (Monday), Hogan is going to “declare martial law.” The people I know who are saying this seem to be thinking of a Panem sort of tyrannical dictatorship. I mean - I guess. Some are posting pictures of National Guard vehicles either on the road “moving out”, or stationed somewhere, like the streets of Baltimore. 

I don’t get what the big deal is. I think Maryland is about to get the strictest order yet - Shelter in Place. Maryland has been towards the front of all the restrictive mandates and so it’s not difficult to imagine we’re about to adopt this one, too. Also, though, when Hogan issued the order to go to carry-out only for food service places, and closing bars, casinos, etc., he specifically said he was activating the National Guard (5,000, IIRC) and that the restrictions “carry the full weight of the law.” IOW, I think we are already under “martial law.” At present, the law we’re under is: we can go to grocery stores or other life-sustaining places. That’s it. 

So. Does anyone want to discuss this? Are you hearing similar rumors? Am I not understanding the situation we are already in? 

PS.: One of the people I know making hysterical warnings about “martial law” was urging everyone to take their money out of banks because it’s “about to get confiscated.” 

great.  just what we need - someone starting a run on the banks.

i'm not bothered by a shelter in place (with allowances to go get food/Rx/etc.).  there are too many utterly stupid people who are out partying in public and that will prolong this.

a city north of me has implemented it, and some have encouraged the gov to implement it in our state - but so far people are just being asked/encouraged to stay home.    though after the huge groups on two seattle beaches yesterday . . . . . 

[Annie G]

I think the issue is that the term ‘shelter in place’ means different things in different areas.
 

Our area has a shelter in place order (since Thursday night) and it allows for people to get groceries, drive through fast food, visit drug stores, Walmart, Lowe’s, etc.  Michael’s arts and crafts is open for Curbside pick up, and our botanical garden and parks are open and we’re encouraged to get out for exercise and fresh air, just stay 6 feet apart.  Golf courses are open. Our county/city leaders have specifically said there won’t be any police stopping people driving to see where they’re going.

Contrast that to a shelter in place order where we moved from last year- my friends are reporting that their family members who are still working are being given papers from their employers allowing them to be out. People have been stopped on the way to work early in the morning and questioned about where they were going. 
 

These are radically different shelter  in place orders.  So yeah, I can understand that there is confusion and misinformation.  Wonder how they can fix it. 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

So there’s a rumor floating around here in the DC-metro region that tomorrow (Monday), Hogan is going to “declare martial law.” The people I know who are saying this seem to be thinking of a Panem sort of tyrannical dictatorship. I mean - I guess. Some are posting pictures of National Guard vehicles either on the road “moving out”, or stationed somewhere, like the streets of Baltimore. 

I don’t get what the big deal is. I think Maryland is about to get the strictest order yet - Shelter in Place. Maryland has been towards the front of all the restrictive mandates and so it’s not difficult to imagine we’re about to adopt this one, too. Also, though, when Hogan issued the order to go to carry-out only for food service places, and closing bars, casinos, etc., he specifically said he was activating the National Guard (5,000, IIRC) and that the restrictions “carry the full weight of the law.” IOW, I think we are already under “martial law.” At present, the law we’re under is: we can go to grocery stores or other life-sustaining places. That’s it. 

So. Does anyone want to discuss this? Are you hearing similar rumors? Am I not understanding the situation we are already in? 

PS.: One of the people I know making hysterical warnings about “martial law” was urging everyone to take their money out of banks because it’s “about to get confiscated.” 

 

The National Guard being called out tends in my case to both bring shivers and a sense of relief.  Our main NG call out tends to be to fight wildfires. And it generally means they are bad and scary and destructive fires.  The NG usually does a good job.  So there’s a relief side too.

 I think you should tell your friends not to be hysterical and not to be starting and circulating rumors that can themselves cause chaos. 

And tell people not to do risky stupid stuff like College jerks party time On the Beach.  Or withdrawal of all their money. Or circulating hysteria. 

And also lesser things because it all ads up.

Be responsible.  

Be responsible.

Responsibility is the necessary ally of Liberty. 

Responsibility includes not spreading panic inducing rumors.

Responsibility includes helping to calm down our more hysterical friends.  

Additionally you might want to add to your friend that cash is a less safe form to have money in currently than banks.  Cash is likely to be virus contaminated. Cash is likely to not work well in an economy that needs to operate with transactions at non viral spread distance.

Debit and credit cards are easier to disinfect. 

They are easier to use for distance transactions. 

As much as possible: Stay Home. 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

29 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Calmer voices need to make themselves heard. Educate on how the state is trying to flatten the curb. Educate on how the National Guard has a long history of providing help and support in times of disaster. Educate on how the banks are still safe.  Educate on how we have plenty of food in our country. Calm your own fears by slowing down and thinking things through. Panic and disinformation are not our friends. 

This!

4 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I think the issue is that the term ‘shelter in place’ means different things in different areas.
 

Our area has a shelter in place order (since Thursday night) and it allows for people to get groceries, drive through fast food, visit drug stores, Walmart, Lowe’s, etc.  Michael’s arts and crafts is open for Curbside pick up, and our botanical garden and parks are open and we’re encouraged to get out for exercise and fresh air, just stay 6 feet apart.  Golf courses are open. Our county/city leaders have specifically said there won’t be any police stopping people driving to see where they’re going.

Contrast that to a shelter in place order where we moved from last year- my friends are reporting that their family members who are still working are being given papers from their employers allowing them to be out. People have been stopped on the way to work early in the morning and questioned about where they were going. 
 

These are radically different shelter  in place orders.  So yeah, I can understand that there is confusion and misinformation.  Wonder how they can fix it. 

Maybe people can take personal responsibility for reading more than just the headlines.  Read the details of those orders.  Maybe we need to call out people who are inciting panic and rebut them with the facts.  And stop calling it Martial Law!

We are on a shelter-in-place order in our state (called too late IMO) and we still have lots of freedom.  We can go outside and get exercise, walk our dogs, go to the stores to get essentials like groceries and medicines and any emergency needs.  Basically what we have been doing since we started fully practicing social distancing 10 days ago.  My classes were moved to online, my clinical rotation in the hospital was put on hold, and dh's job went to working remotely.   When dd arrived from Madrid (from her study abroad program), we are continuing to avoid people and only my husband is going to any stores and keeping his distance.  

Our governor specifically said that the national guard will NOT be stopping people nor enforcing the order.  That is up to local law enforcement, which were encouraged to only arrest people as a last resort ... they will break up larger groups and order them to go home.  The governor reiterated this several times just to make sure that people got the message. The did say that about 60 National Guard personnel will be deployed to assist medical personnel, and in logistics where needed.  

People need to take a chill pill on this whole "martial law."  Let's be voices of reason!  

[PrincessMommy]

Living in MD here and I haven't heard that rumor.   But, the last time I watched the local news was last night.   I know Hogan has been very frustrated by people going to the beach - en masse and to see the Cherry Blossoms.  No one was keeping distances.   They closed the beaches in DE yesterday.  I don't know if that has happened at the MD beaches yet. 

My sis lives in IL and I asked her what it meant since they have a "Shelter in place" order.  She said they can get groceries delivered (or pickup), gas, and curb-side meal pick up.   I don't think they can go for walks outside anymore, but I might be wrong.   

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know that this isn't directly related to 'martial law' but to panic and anxiety in general.  I think that all of us have anxiety right now.  Here is what I do when the panic rises.  I look around at me in my comfy house and I tell myself "You are safe".  And I am.  I go down the line of family members in my household.  "Dh is safe."  "Ds is safe".  He's miles away in another state, but I hear from him by text and yes, he is safe. "Dd is safe".  I put aside the fears for the future and concentrate on right now.  Are we ok?  Yes?  Ok.  Deep breath.

I do deep breathing.  I stretch.  (Some might do yoga or an online Zumba class etc.)  I take a walk. Still allowed in my area but we are asked not to go to playgrounds and to observe social distancing rules of six feet apart.

I think about or look at my full pantry and my stack of toilet paper.  We're ok.  I have reached out to some younger families in my circle of friends to see if they are ok on supplies because I know that they are on more of shoestring budget.  They are ok right now but if necessary they know that my family and others will help them even if we all just chip in one roll of toilet paper.  I check in on elderly I know  to make sure that they have supplies as well.  I stay on the phone and talk to them even if the conversation meanders because they need that human contact even if it is just through a phone line.  In my very hard of hearing mom's case, once she figures out it's me, I let her do the talking for the 20 minutes or so because she really can't hear a word I say.  But she knows I'm there and she feels loved.  I check in on my peers.  I get strength from them and hopefully give them some back.  (BTW - we are now finally equals because they are now sheltering in place much like I have had to do for years.  But I know how it feels so I reach out.)

It is scary to have questions about things.  It's scary when sometimes it seems like it is the "blind leading the blind".  But knowledge is power.  State websites will define certain terms for your area.  If you have a business that has any kind of state or even local association, ask them for clarification.  Like if you are in roofing, call the roofing association to see if you can still do your job even if you might have to modify your practices in some way.  If you can't, find out about where the food banks are or other helps that are being set up.  Let your friends know.  They might not be able to take all the load off of you but most can help in some way even if it is dropping a meal off at your front door. 

Skip this next paragraph if the mention of God makes you angry: 

I remind myself that God is in control even in dark and chaotic times.  I think of examples in the Bible of this.  I think of examples in my own life.  I think of verses or search them out.  I put on music that is calming and reminds me of peace and truth. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[DesertBlossom]

DH is in he National Guard and he says they are on stand-by orders, but it sounds like they will assisting with more logistical things. For example, our food banks used to have 200 volunteers per day. Now no one is coming out. Someone needs to be helping with that.

[gardenmom5]

21 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I must be the most naive person in the world, because I think the national guard and military presence would be a good thing.   I’m about sick of people saying it’s just the flu.   And in my area, some restaurants are saying they’ll keep the dining room open until we have martial law.  🤦🏻‍♀️  Is this when Darwin kicks in?? 

am I a bad person that I would have zero sympathy for one of these "it's just the flu" getting this - and then being triaged as low priority for treatment because hospitals are so overwhelmed?

[Lanny]

OP the people you refer to have absolutely no clue what the Army National Guard or Air National Guard units do. Primarily, they are run by the States and their first job is to help the residents of their states, during times of various emergencies. That is an extreme over simplification, but I think is fairly accurate.

Those units can be, and often are, activated during times of war, or, when the units, or some of the members, have special skills that are needed and not available in Active Duty personnel.

Now, with regard to the COVID-19 Coronavirus. If my memory is correct, the Governors of six (?) states in the USA, possibly all of them are Democrats, requested, in total, about 1000 National Guard members be called up?

IMO (I was in the Air National Guard) this has NOTHING to do with Martial Law. This has to do with the Governors of those states seeking additional help and requesting permission to deploy those troops to help the residents of their various states, during the COVID-19 Coronavirus crisis.

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I must be the most naive person in the world, because I think the national guard and military presence would be a good thing.   I’m about sick of people saying it’s just the flu.   And in my area, some restaurants are saying they’ll keep the dining room open until we have martial law.  🤦🏻‍♀️  Is this when Darwin kicks in?? 

 

Yes.

 I wish I saw reasonable behavior where it would not be necessary. 

But I am not seeing reasonable behavior, hearing reasonable attitudes. 

Even here in WTM there’s been a lot of people saying they are going to _____ until forced to stop. (Travel internationally, for example.  Even someone who I usually respect declaring she would commit civil disobedience if she didn’t get to go on her vacation trip.) 

I did a slow shut down of my 18 yo son’s activities, down to shelter in place lockdown level as of this past Friday at noon, so I can understand in a sense the government needing to do some of the same gradual shut down to avoid total mutiny by legal “adults.”  

But to extent we people can slow down what we are doing in advance of government mandate, we should. 

We need to take it seriously, yes. But not with panic, hysteria, and recklessness. 

 

Be Calm. Careful. Cautious. Considerate. Act with Community in mind. Be Capable. Be Creative. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Calmer voices need to make themselves heard. Educate on how the state is trying to flatten the curb. Educate on how the National Guard has a long history of providing help and support in times of disaster. Educate on how the banks are still safe.  Educate on how we have plenty of food in our country. Calm your own fears by slowing down and thinking things through. Panic and disinformation are not our friends. 

 

Absolutely! 

 

[hippiemamato3]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

am I a bad person that I would have zero sympathy for one of these "it's just the flu" getting this - and then being triaged as low priority for treatment because hospitals are so overwhelmed?

Um...I don't think being sentenced to death because a person doesn't understand the magnitude of a crisis that has been downplayed by our 'president' is good. So I guess so. 

[gardenmom5]

20 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Um...I don't think being sentenced to death because a person doesn't understand the magnitude of a crisis that has been downplayed by our 'president' is good. So I guess so. 

some is stupidity - some is beyond stupidity.    their stupidity can result in other people's deaths.

[Pen]

32 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

am I a bad person that I would have zero sympathy for one of these "it's just the flu" getting this - and then being triaged as low priority for treatment because hospitals are so overwhelmed?

 

I think that is completely reasonable.  

I think we need to head into “Zero Tolerance” approach.  

 I think anyone choosing to depart on elective travel after the Diamond Princess made it clear that that was potentially risky should be triaged low priority.  People partying on beaches: low priority.  

Kids coughing on foods in stores on purpose: jail.  Instead of throwing out the food they coughed on, put it in the jail cell with them for their food. Not necessarily the thing they themselves coughed on ...  mix it up a bit and let them eat what another kid coughed on. Let them go home on strict lockdown if they test free of virus in 4 weeks—if there are plenty of tests,  they can be low priority for tests as well.  Someday if they survive, It can be a good story of their own youthful recklessness, meanness, arrogance and stupidity for their grandkids. 

 

[hippiemamato3]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

some is stupidity - some is beyond stupidity.    their stupidity can result in other people's deaths.

I don't think wishing death on anyone is a good person thing to do.  If you do, well....I guess that's on you. 

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Calmer voices need to make themselves heard. Educate on how the state is trying to flatten the curb. Educate on how the National Guard has a long history of providing help and support in times of disaster. Educate on how the banks are still safe.  Educate on how we have plenty of food in our country. Calm your own fears by slowing down and thinking things through. Panic and disinformation are not our friends. 

 

Exactly. But it is difficult for those calmer voices to be heard when the media has been whipping this into a frenzy from day 1. If supply and demand can normalize in stores, people ought to realize that there is no need to buy half the store out. Panic has never helped anyone - the calmer we will be the easier it will be to endure.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Liz CA said:

 

Exactly. But it is difficult for those calmer voices to be heard when the media has been whipping this into a frenzy from day 1. If supply and demand can normalize in stores, people ought to realize that there is no need to buy half the store out. Panic has never helped anyone - the calmer we will be the easier it will be to endure.

Your experience might be different, but our local media have been wonderful.  Calm.  Giving needed information. 

[Liz CA]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Your experience might be different, but our local media have been wonderful.  Calm.  Giving needed information. 

 

Unfortunately, I have seen overblown reports, inaccurate reporting and general crazy-making. My local media is better though. I need to stop hanging over dh's shoulder when he watches national coverage.

[Pen]

36 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Um...I don't think being sentenced to death because a person doesn't understand the magnitude of a crisis that has been downplayed by our 'president' is good. So I guess so. 

 

 

I don’t want to get political. But I think this is it’s own form of misinformation, and politicking by you. 

 The USA President isn’t downplaying it now.  

He said limit groups to 10 well before many other places did.  

He had a moment in press questions part of National Emergency declaration where he seemed to agree with idea of a reporter asking if people should just stay home as being good without actually declaring that.  It is a tight rope to walk. 

If people aren’t paying attention to daily changes and developments and are basing behavior on statements from a few weeks ago, that is on them.  People need to educate themselves. 

Lots of things are fluid and change and develop rapidly . This is unprecedentedly so. This is an unprecedented emergency. 

I don’t wish death on anyone.

I do wish very severe penalties like jail, loss of scholarships, permanent criminal records, on people who are acting with reckless disregard .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

reckless disregard - Legal Definition

n. An act of proceeding to do something with a conscious awareness of danger, while ignoring any potential consequences of so doing. Reckless disregard, while not necessarily suggesting an intent to cause harm, is a harsher condition than ordinary negligence.

 

[hippiemamato3]

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I don’t want to get political. But I think this is it’s own form of misinformation, and politicking by you. 

 The USA President isn’t downplaying it now.  

He said limit groups to 10 well before many other places did.  

He had a moment in press questions part of National Emergency declaration where he seemed to agree with idea of a reporter asking if people should just stay home as being good without actually declaring that.  It is a tight rope to walk. 

If people aren’t paying attention to daily changes and developments and are basing behavior on statements from a few weeks ago, that is on them.  People need to educate themselves. 

Lots of things are fluid and change and develop rapidly . This is unprecedentedly so. This is an unprecedented emergency. 

I don’t wish death on anyone.

I do wish very severe penalties like jail, loss of scholarships, permanent criminal records, on people who are acting with reckless disregard .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by emzhengjiu
political post

[Pen]

And maybe it should be raised to “Reckless Endangerment” in any jurisdictions that have that concept with penalties set in place under State of Emergency unique situation:

 

New York Penal Code 120.25: Reckless endangerment in the first degree - Spodek Law ...

May 5, 2017 · New York Penal Code 120.25: Reckless endangerment in the first degree. Reckless endangerment is any act that shows an individual has no regard for human life. Even if no one actually got hurt, when someone acts in a way that puts others in danger this is considered reckless endangerment.

 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Assigning blame doesn't help anyone at this point.  Let's wait until it's all over to do the blaming.  Right now we're too busy supporting each other and staying safe ourselves.

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

The "president" didn't act for several months. This is his fault. 

 

Yes. His actions are his actions.

But they are not a reasonable excuse for people doing crazy and stupid things now. 

(If I tell someone that ocean swimming is a fun activity, that doesn’t mean they should keep right on doing it when there is a black flag for riptide out. ) 

 

Try this perspective:

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Quill—we have had family members expressing similar concerns. They tend to watch a certain channel also, that I don’t watch, so I don’t know if pundits have expressed certain views or concerns in the past.

I am in a different state with activated national guard. They have been assembling mobile hospitals, taking supplies places, and generally just providing manhours of labor. I suspect they may step in to help with law enforcement at some point. I was listening to the scanner last night and there is a huge uptick in medical calls. 
 

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Lanny said:

OP the people you refer to have absolutely no clue what the Army National Guard or Air National Guard units do. Primarily, they are run by the States and their first job is to help the residents of their states, during times of various emergencies. That is an extreme over simplification, but I think is fairly accurate.

Those units can be, and often are, activated during times of war, or, when the units, or some of the members, have special skills that are needed and not available in Active Duty personnel.

Now, with regard to the COVID-19 Coronavirus. If my memory is correct, the Governors of six (?) states in the USA, possibly all of them are Democrats, requested, in total, about 1000 National Guard members be called up?

IMO (I was in the Air National Guard) this has NOTHING to do with Martial Law. This has to do with the Governors of those states seeking additional help and requesting permission to deploy those troops to help the residents of their various states, during the COVID-19 Coronavirus crisis.

 

Yes.

My son was interested in going into National Guard.

Each State has a National Guard unit afaik.

And call up is at state level. 

Sometimes they are young kids, like my son would be if he joins, and sometimes they themselves don’t act rationally in crises they are not prepared for.

But they primarily usually do helping activities.  What exactly depending on situation and needs.  

We may have NG (being discussed afaik) help deliver food in our rural areas as NG troops tend to be young and healthy and may be able to do it more safely than school bus drivers, many of whom are older, less fit. 

(NG May also help set up testing drive through centers, and / or field hospitals as needed.)

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Pen

[ScoutTN]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Calmer voices need to make themselves heard. Educate on how the state is trying to flatten the curb. Educate on how the National Guard has a long history of providing help and support in times of disaster. Educate on how the banks are still safe.  Educate on how we have plenty of food in our country. Calm your own fears by slowing down and thinking things through. Panic and disinformation are not our friends. 

It is hard to calm people when they walk into the grocery (single parent, just getting off work, no time to shop earlier in the day) and there is ZERO meat/poultry, eggs, milk, oj, butter, bread, hot cereal, pasta, m&c, tuna, spaghettios, canned soup, pb, TP, diapers or baby wipes, quick frozen foods like pizza or chx nuggets. Produce was ok. Canned food was artichoke hearts and 10 cans of chick peas. This is a neighbor who lives paycheck to paycheck and can't stockpile. This is a low cost store, Walmart Neighborhood Market in a lower middle class neighborhood at an intersection with a huge Kroger and a Publix on two ther corners in the same condition. Insane! 

I went to the grocery for her the next day, but she was close to hysterical when she got home from work that evening, understandably. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by ScoutTN

[DoraBora]

1 hour ago, Lanny said:

OP the people you refer to have absolutely no clue what the Army National Guard or Air National Guard units do. Primarily, they are run by the States and their first job is to help the residents of their states, during times of various emergencies. That is an extreme over simplification, but I think is fairly accurate.

Those units can be, and often are, activated during times of war, or, when the units, or some of the members, have special skills that are needed and not available in Active Duty personnel.

Now, with regard to the COVID-19 Coronavirus. If my memory is correct, the Governors of six (?) states in the USA, possibly all of them are Democrats, requested, in total, about 1000 National Guard members be called up?

IMO (I was in the Air National Guard) this has NOTHING to do with Martial Law. This has to do with the Governors of those states seeking additional help and requesting permission to deploy those troops to help the residents of their various states, during the COVID-19 Coronavirus crisis.

Yes.  Civilian governors.  

Deploying the National Guard doesn't involve a military takeover of government.

[ScoutTN]

Maybe the NG can help drive trucks to deliver groceries to stores so that there is actually food to buy. (As well as TP and other household necessities.)  

Edited March 22, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

It is hard to calm people when they walk into the grocery (single parent, just getting off work, no time to shop earlier in the day) and there is ZERO meat/poultry, eggs, milk, oj, butter, bread, hot cereal, pasta, m&c, tuna, spaghettios, canned soup, pb, TP, diapers or baby wipes, quick frozen foods like pizza or chx nuggets. Produce was ok. Canned food was artichike hearts and 10 cans of chick peas. This is a neighbor who lives paycheck to paycheck and can't stockpile. This is a low cost store, Walmart Neighborhood Market in a lower middle class neighborhood at an intersection with a huge Kroger and a Publix on two ther corners in the same condition. Insane! 

I went to the grocery for her the next day, but she was close to hysterical when she got home from work that evening, understandably. 

But you figured out the calm thing to do - go to the grocery store for her.  I went and got water for a neighbor a couple of days ago who is immunocompromised like me (but she doesn't have a mask like I do) because she couldn't find it on the online delivery services. 

[Katy]

I watched the Illinois announcement live (we don't live there, but it effects DH's job).  The governor specifically said you can still go for a hike or walk your dog, just stay away from other people.

There cannot be a run on the bank.  There are not only cash withdrawal limits, the currency isn't tied to gold or silver anymore so there is no limit to how much the government prints.  It's backed up by the federal reserve, which isn't even controlled by the US government, it's controlled by international banks.  There is NO reason to get cash out for this unless for some reason you think the power grid will collapse.  This is basic high school economics.

I don't think I've been to Maryland apart from the airport since my 8th grade field trip, but I would agree most people don't know what martial law means.  Hopefully it will have no effect whatsoever, but clearly the idea with checks being sent to families on an ongoing basis is clearly to prevent society from falling apart everywhere. Keep spending money on food, don't murder your neighbors for it.  If I lived in a large city and had the option to get outside of town I might do that now because even with National Guard help I imagine things might get a bit like after a hurricane in some areas.

[ScoutTN]

18 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But you figured out the calm thing to do - go to the grocery store for her.  I went and got water for a neighbor a couple of days ago who is immunocompromised like me (but she doesn't have a mask like I do) because she couldn't find it on the online delivery services. 

Yes, but about 30-40 people arriving at the store around the same time completely lost control, crying, yelling etc. while there.  I was not there, but heard the account from other neighbors.  No food on the shelves WILL create mass panic if it happens on a large scale or often.

Edited March 23, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do think that it is important in some regard to set expectations.  For most people there is going to be a mix of "life as normal" and "life disrupted".  I think that it is unrealistic to expect no disruption and unhelpful to our own mental health to rail against the disruptions. I think that we do need to come together as communities to get through this.  "Every man for himself" is not the way to go here and is going to lead to fights and panic and if let go, even to violence.  In my neighborhood, the Nextdoor app has been vital in solving some of the community problems that have come up.  People have been generous in offering solutions once they saw what the problems were. 

[ScoutTN]

21 hours ago, happypamama said:

Quill, DH and I are wondering about all of that too.  What exactly IS the difference between "only go to life-sustaining businesses" and "shelter in place?"  We are at only life-sustaining businesses here in PA right now, and IDK what would actually be different if we went to shelter in place.  

So exactly who can go to work? Who defines what is life-sustaining? My neighbor down the street works in yard service, which is just picking up here with  spring weather. If he does not work, his family will not eat. His work, his paycheck, is essential to their life, even if it's not essential that someone else's yard get mowed in the next two weeks. 

At a basic level INCOME is life-sustaining and millions of Americans have just had all or most of theirs taken away and declared not essential.

Edited March 23, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lanny said:

OP the people you refer to have absolutely no clue what the Army National Guard or Air National Guard units do. Primarily, they are run by the States and their first job is to help the residents of their states, during times of various emergencies. That is an extreme over simplification, but I think is fairly accurate.

Those units can be, and often are, activated during times of war, or, when the units, or some of the members, have special skills that are needed and not available in Active Duty personnel.

Now, with regard to the COVID-19 Coronavirus. If my memory is correct, the Governors of six (?) states in the USA, possibly all of them are Democrats, requested, in total, about 1000 National Guard members be called up?

IMO (I was in the Air National Guard) this has NOTHING to do with Martial Law. This has to do with the Governors of those states seeking additional help and requesting permission to deploy those troops to help the residents of their various states, during the COVID-19 Coronavirus crisis.

Thanks for that.

I think the couple of people with these “warnings” about martial law are envisioning a particular, extremely dystopian thing. Like the “peace-keepers” in The Hunger Games books. Like, you will be shot on sight and your firearms might be confiscated. Or something like that. 

Just FYI, Governor Hogan of Maryland is a Republican, but Maryland is generally very “blue” and Hogan is really more of a centrist than other Republican govs are. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, ScoutTN said:

So exactly who can go to work? Who defines what is life-sustaining? My neighbor down the street works in yard service, which is just picking up here with  spring weather. If he does not work, his family will not eat. His work, his paycheck, is essential to their life, even if it's not essential that someone else's yard get mowed in the next two weeks. 

Will Lowe's and Home Depot be open? A leaking toilet or sink is not life threatening, but it can cost $30K in minutes. Btdt. 
For some of my low income neighbors, their summer gardens are essential. Can they go purchase topsoil, fertilizer, or mulch? Spring gardens need to be in here, or they will miss the early growing season.

What about office stores? A friend teaches online full time and has for a while. If her ;laptop ssuddenly died, she would need to replace it immediately, within 24 hrs if it happened on a school day. Again, not life threatening, but 100% of her income depends on her computer and internet access. She can't wait for Amazon to bring her a new computer a week or ten days later. 

What about tech guys and internet workmen who work on the connections on poles/wires or in people's homes? 

There are a zillion things, especially for people who live on the edge and don't have savings or certain kinds of flexibility. 

I will say this again.  Each area will define this and will have information on their websites.

In our area (which was hit first) Lowe's and Home Depot are both open.  All hardware stores are.

Office stores have figured out curbside pickup for their products.  You order online and they will bring it out to you.

People are able to plant gardens.

There are options for low income people that have been thought of.  It does take some legwork to find out what is available and how to access it. 

I keep getting phone calls from people here who are panicking but when I ask them if they have researched any of these things (like I have), the answer is "no" - they just went straight to panic without trying to find out the answers.  Often there was no need to panic in the first place.  So I spend a lot of time giving out information and researching for those who are too panicked to slow down and look for the answers. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

2 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

Living in MD here and I haven't heard that rumor.   But, the last time I watched the local news was last night.   I know Hogan has been very frustrated by people going to the beach - en masse and to see the Cherry Blossoms.  No one was keeping distances.   They closed the beaches in DE yesterday.  I don't know if that has happened at the MD beaches yet. 

My sis lives in IL and I asked her what it meant since they have a "Shelter in place" order.  She said they can get groceries delivered (or pickup), gas, and curb-side meal pick up.   I don't think they can go for walks outside anymore, but I might be wrong.   

I'm in Illinois.  We can go to grocery stores, but they want 6 foot distance.  Most are limiting the number of people in the store at a time to whatever is reasonable for the square footage of the space.  We can walk/run outside if we can maintain distance.  It is easier to do that in the suburbs and in rural areas than in more densely populated areas.  Many people want to do curbside pick up grocery shopping, but their orders are getting deleted or delayed due to not enough workers.  Since restaurants are not allowed to have dine-in service, we are looking at local restaurants that are in danger of closing and getting take out from them on occasion.  We don't eat out very often, but we want to support local businesses where possible.  We also have been doing curbside pickup for dog food and medicines.

Even before the shelter-in-place order, most nursing homes and assisted living spaces weren't allowing outside visitors.  My friend has been able to visit her mom on the patio as long as they keep their distance.  Some people are visiting through closed windows - making signs for their loved ones.  

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I think that is completely reasonable.  

I think we need to head into “Zero Tolerance” approach.  

 I think anyone choosing to depart on elective travel after the Diamond Princess made it clear that that was potentially risky should be triaged low priority.  People partying on beaches: low priority.  

Kids coughing on foods in stores on purpose: jail.  Instead of throwing out the food they coughed on, put it in the jail cell with them for their food. Not necessarily the thing they themselves coughed on ...  mix it up a bit and let them eat what another kid coughed on. Let them go home on strict lockdown if they test free of virus in 4 weeks—if there are plenty of tests,  they can be low priority for tests as well.  Someday if they survive, It can be a good story of their own youthful recklessness, meanness, arrogance and stupidity for their grandkids. 

 

there may be people who don't think this happens - but the news was posting pictures of a guy who'd LICK the ice cream before putting it back in the freezer case hoping someone else would buy it and eat it.  his picture was posted to hopefully find him faster.  (I think he's finally been found. - and arrested.)

right now - that's like the woman who randomlly put cyanide in Tylenol capsules back in the 80s -she did it to cover up a murder she committed. - innocent people died.

2 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I don't think wishing death on anyone is a good person thing to do.  If you do, well....I guess that's on you. 

I'm not wishing death on anyone - I'm prioritizing that those who are actually taking this seriously receive higher triage priority than those who undermine social distancing. (which places other people's lives at risk - not just their own.).   doctors in Italy are having to choose who lives and dies right now because of a shortage of ventilators.  this isn't hypothetical.

1 hour ago, kdsuomi said:

The National Guard helping at hospitals and food banks is one thing. The National Guard patrolling the streets is another thing. It actually scares me that there are people who think the National Guard patrolling streets is a good thing. 

It also scares me that there are people who think people who say something or travel should basically not be treated, that people who cough should be jailed, or that people who leave their homes should be jailed. We're letting real criminals out of jail right now, and you want to put those people in jail? It's a perspective that just makes no sense.

except - when beaches are closed, and people go have huge parties. . . . there was one outbreak of 45 people that was traced to ONE woman who went to a wedding.  not the only case of it either.

my dd was talking to a coworker last week with a friend in Italy.  the Italian friend received a 500 euro fine for riding his bike.  they are locked down tight - but the one way to stop this is to shut things down.   as one town in Italy did successfully do.  small town, but they tested everyone, and everyone who tested positive was forced into quarantine.

[happypamama]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

So exactly who can go to work? Who defines what is life-sustaining? My neighbor down the street works in yard service, which is just picking up here with  spring weather. If he does not work, his family will not eat. His work, his paycheck, is essential to their life, even if it's not essential that someone else's yard get mowed in the next two weeks. 

Will Lowe's and Home Depot be open? A leaking toilet or sink is not life threatening, but it can cost $30K in minutes. Btdt. 
For some of my low income neighbors, their summer gardens are essential. Can they go purchase topsoil, fertilizer, or mulch? Spring gardens need to be in here, or they will miss the early growing season.

What about office stores? A friend teaches online full time and has for a while. If her laptop suddenly died, she would need to replace it immediately, within 24 hrs if it happened on a school day. Again, not life threatening, but 100% of her income depends on her computer and internet access. She can't wait for Amazon to bring her a new computer a week or ten days later. 

What about tech guys and internet workmen who work on the connections on poles/wires or in people's homes? 

There are a zillion things, especially for people who live on the edge and don't have savings or certain kinds of flexibility. 

Exactly. PA has made a clear list and has clarified what that means. First they said essential, and gyms were excluded, but construction counted as essential. When they went to life-sustaining, construction got excluded, except for emergency repairs and construction of healthcare facilities. It doesn't seem to take livelihood into account. 

[Katy]

Essential businesses are defined by the federal government in the US.  Individual states might add more.

It was linked by someone earlier on the really long thread, but here it is again.  https://www.cisa.gov/critical-infrastructure-sectors

[Jean in Newcastle]

Nextdoor.com has just launched a new feature called “Help Map”. You can list what things you are available to help with and people needing that help can find you. I don’t know 100% how it works. It was just launched and I just signed up with what services I can offer. But of course I haven’t been contacted at this point. 

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Nextdoor.com has just launched a new feature called “Help Map”. You can list what things you are available to help with and people needing that help can find you. I don’t know 100% how it works. It was just launched and I just signed up with what services I can offer. But of course I haven’t been contacted at this point. 

I searched this on my app and nothing but a list of businesses came up. Where did you find it on your app?

There's also a FB page Intellihelp that's national, but is broken down by state and city. There seems to be a lot of need in Austin, but not as much in my city.