Update on back MRI and chiro

[PeterPan]

So I saw the chiro today and he was white as a sheet, horrified at the report. NOTHING he had me doing had been appropriate. He had me doing some weird stretch today and later my back hurt more, much much more. And I vomited when I tried to eat dinner and feel nauseous when standing.

So I put in to get appts at a big Orthopaedic place that has good reviews and looks legit. Apparently the stressed pedicles are the big deal. Any more and they’ll fracture which is why he was so horrified. I kept TELLING him he wasn’t right and he was doing his pandering, trust me, you might be a zebra crap. (Before the MRI) He was SO somber, unhappy.

So then he’s like I’m gonna treat you for three months aggressively and if that doesn’t work I’ll refer. I’m like refer to whom? He finally coughs up orthopedic and I’m like fine for what and he says injections.

SO SORRY BUT WHY IN THE WORLD SHOULD I WAIT THREE MONTHS IF A STUPID STEROID INJECTION WOULD HELP IT????!!!??? This does not seem like a level of care to be slow in or afraid of. Are there dangers to it I don’t realize??????

So I will follow throw with orthopedic tomorrow and get appt. No more screwing around. Oh and what frustrates me more is he said his care is equivalent to PT (NOT) and cant tell me what is safe and what will make it worse. So I want a list of things I can do at the gym that will either help or at least be safe and he was struggling. He said lunges and I’m not sure they’re safe. They might be but I don’t know. 

But yeah he was horrified and couldn’t apologize because his why bother to do imaging approach endangered me.

Edited July 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[Rosie_0801]

Uh, what kind of idiot Chiro does anything without having imaging done first? 😳

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Uh, what kind of idiot Chiro does anything without having imaging done first? 😳

Yes, exactly! Glad you have better info to work from and hope you can find relief at the ortho!

[Ottakee]

 I would just be careful and try to get into the ortho ASAP.  Tell them exactly what is going on and how much pain you are in and that you had an MRI and what the results were.

[Arcadia]

Do you have the MRI images? If not, I would put in the request ASAP. My provider gives the first copy free on a CD, I have to sign a patient request form. I would be charged $15 for subsequent copies. The orthopedic would likely want to look at the images as well as the report.

Did you have a CT scan as well? One place just uploaded all the images together with the report, the other place we have to ask for the images.

[PeterPan]

53 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Uh, what kind of idiot Chiro does anything without having imaging done first? 😳

Someone who is young?? He's under 30 I think, and I think he just doesn't respect the 43, lol. It's my fault for not pushing harder in the first place.

40 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Do you have the MRI images?

I brought the cd with me and the dorkball kept it. I need to get it back before they lose it or something. 

Nope, no CT or xrays. But ya'll said the orthoped would want his own xrays, which is why I wasn't bothering. This doofus said they wouldn't show anything, and he was so egg on his face today.

So I'm hoping for good things with the new ortho! It just concerns me that my body can be unhappy enough that it vomits from it's experiencing and I have no clue. I've worked on my interoception, so this is just unexpected. Well I say that, and actually I knew I was going to vomit. Before, when I had gallbladder problems and didn't realize, I vomited just out of the blue in a store, lol. So I did know and make it to the restroom. I'm just not registering something to realize I'm at that point. 

And maybe the vomiting is not connected, but I thought it was really odd, really odd. 

54 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes, exactly! Glad you have better info to work from and hope you can find relief at the ortho!

Ironically I don't feel too bad with the Foundation Training. (says the woman who is hyporesponsive, lol) But this chiro is saying I'm actually in danger and I can't get good info on what is safe, what to do to make it better, anything, without getting someone more qualified. 

So I guess we'll see. I'm hoping good things too. I've heard the steroid shots can be pretty wow, reversing the inflammation, so we'll see.

[SereneHome]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Someone who is young?? He's under 30 I think, and I think he just doesn't respect the 43, lol. It's my fault for not pushing harder in the first place.

I brought the cd with me and the dorkball kept it. I need to get it back before they lose it or something. 

Nope, no CT or xrays. But ya'll said the orthoped would want his own xrays, which is why I wasn't bothering. This doofus said they wouldn't show anything, and he was so egg on his face today.

So I'm hoping for good things with the new ortho! It just concerns me that my body can be unhappy enough that it vomits from it's experiencing and I have no clue. I've worked on my interoception, so this is just unexpected. Well I say that, and actually I knew I was going to vomit. Before, when I had gallbladder problems and didn't realize, I vomited just out of the blue in a store, lol. So I did know and make it to the restroom. I'm just not registering something to realize I'm at that point. 

And maybe the vomiting is not connected, but I thought it was really odd, really odd. 

Ironically I don't feel too bad with the Foundation Training. (says the woman who is hyporesponsive, lol) But this chiro is saying I'm actually in danger and I can't get good info on what is safe, what to do to make it better, anything, without getting someone more qualified. 

So I guess we'll see. I'm hoping good things too. I've heard the steroid shots can be pretty wow, reversing the inflammation, so we'll see.

so, I apologize if I am completely off base here - but you shouldn't have to push!!!!!  medical professionals should be professionals!!  With no pushing required!

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

so, I apologize if I am completely off base here - but you shouldn't have to push!!!!!  medical professionals should be professionals!!  With no pushing required!

Sigh, yeah. I think he knew his butt was so on the hotseat on this. 11 years of pain and he acted like it was this momentary, clearcut injury and told me I was complaining too much.

You would think on someone my age (haha) they would just do imaging upfront. But no, insurance denied it (I paid for it myself) and apparently it's sometimes not standard course. But you would think for someone with previous diagnoses that would have shown even on just cheap xrays that SOME kind of imaging should have been done. But nope, insurance wanted 4-6 weeks of PT and xyays before they would cover it. I'm pulled out the old cc and paid for it, cuz that's absurd. No it was my HSA, but still, that blew my mind. Should have been first and instead the policy is to push to last.

Just goes to show we are not well-served by living our lives by statistics. If you're the 1% or 10% that differ, you get screwed. 

[PeterPan]

So just thinking out loud here, but the ortho might want more imaging. That's fine. Just an adventure. 

I just think they should respect the 43. How do you expect someone to get to my age, with a kid who barrels into me and that I've carried upstairs as dead weight (asleep, 75 pounds) and NOT have some back issues??? LOL I mean it's just stupid. Of course I have arthritis. I hobble down stairs and look horrible. And I think he's all wet on my form. People were watching me the whole time and multiple people had said my form was good. And my weights hadn't been high for over a year. 

Oh and the crock is the 3-4 months he wants to wait doing his gig before referral is how long it would take a fracture to heal if I did NOTHING. So why should I pay him??? He's like I'm gonna correct your function. I thinking he doesn't even GET function. I'm a WOMAN. I have a pelvic floor. He has never ever addressed that and the PT cared very much about that. 

So we'll see. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get an appointment set up and get some good info. I need to get in the gym and just MOVE. I do like the Foundation Training. It actually makes me sweat! 

[prairiewindmomma]

I suggest that you lead all conversations with new providers with the caveat of, “I am clinically hyporesponsive. I struggle with interoception and my body will vomit and I will not yet have clued in that something is really, really wrong. I cannot be trusted to report pain in a way typical of others’ responses.”

Seriously.

Signed,

the woman who walked on her own shattered bones and freaked out her orthopedist when he saw the MRI

Edited July 19, 2019 by prairiewindmomma

[Rosie_0801]

55 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So I'm hoping for good things with the new ortho! It just concerns me that my body can be unhappy enough that it vomits from it's experiencing and I have no clue. I've worked on my interoception, so this is just unexpected. Well I say that, and actually I knew I was going to vomit. Before, when I had gallbladder problems and didn't realize, I vomited just out of the blue in a store, lol. So I did know and make it to the restroom. I'm just not registering something to realize I'm at that point. 

And maybe the vomiting is not connected, but I thought it was really odd, really odd. 

 

Firstly, don't excuse his age to excuse his stupidity/misogyny/ageism/ego/whatever else.

Emotional strain causes physical strain, and vice versa, so a traumatised body vomiting doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me. That doesn't mean it isn't caused by something else that should be checked out.

[SereneHome]

37 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Sigh, yeah. I think he knew his butt was so on the hotseat on this. 11 years of pain and he acted like it was this momentary, clearcut injury and told me I was complaining too much.

You would think on someone my age (haha) they would just do imaging upfront. But no, insurance denied it (I paid for it myself) and apparently it's sometimes not standard course. But you would think for someone with previous diagnoses that would have shown even on just cheap xrays that SOME kind of imaging should have been done. But nope, insurance wanted 4-6 weeks of PT and xyays before they would cover it. I'm pulled out the old cc and paid for it, cuz that's absurd. No it was my HSA, but still, that blew my mind. Should have been first and instead the policy is to push to last.

Just goes to show we are not well-served by living our lives by statistics. If you're the 1% or 10% that differ, you get screwed. 

sorry to get you so off topic, but do you mind telling me how much.  My husband needs one and we have not met our deductible yet.

If your insurance covered PT, then this is the epitome of stupidity of our medical care system!!!!!

 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I suggest that you lead all conversations with new providers with the caveat of, “I am clinically hyporesponsive. I struggle with interoception and my body will vomit and I will not yet have clued in that something is really, really wrong. I cannot be trusted to report pain in a way typical of others’ responses.”

Seriously.

Signed,

the woman who walked on her own shattered bones and freaked out her orthopedist when he saw the MRI

I TOLD this chiro that. Told him over and over. They seriously have NO CLUE. They cannot even fathom it.

[PeterPan]

So in interesting news, I found this pdf from a university sports rehab program, and they answer all these questions I had!!! They chart it all out!!! So when I look at it, the guy is saying the right stuff (first get down every day pain, then work on function), but he's clueless. Like their PTs would give you 5-6 exercises upfront, tell you how much cardio you can do and what kind, and they have it all divided into phases with goals for each phase. So the questions I had were reasonable and the info I thought I ought to be able to have is right here in the pdf.

 https://www.uwhealth.org/files/uwhealth/docs/sportsmed/Spondy_Rehab_Guide.pdf

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

37 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Firstly, don't excuse his age to excuse his stupidity/misogyny/ageism/ego/whatever else.

LOL probably true. Ego is probably what's really going on. I'm asking for DPT care and he's a chiro. So he's priding himself that he's as good, and he's really not. If he were, he'd have a handout like these people and run imaging.

[PeterPan]

39 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

sorry to get you so off topic, but do you mind telling me how much.  My husband needs one and we have not met our deductible yet.

If your insurance covered PT, then this is the epitome of stupidity of our medical care system!!!!!

 

Well the MRI was through a private company (ProScan, you can google as they're a chain), and they would tell you upfront your insurance authorization, price, price if you paid at time of service, etc. So I paid $450 time of service. It was $513 to bill through my insurance, go figure. My deductible is $11k, so I was paying it anyway, meaning I didn't care. We're not dealing with anything requiring surgery, so I just paid for it and was done with it.

There are real questions like what an orthoped would have done, whether he would have waited on the imaging, etc. I'm just really thankful we did it. I hate this stress and disagreement among professionals, so I wanted an abitrator, some kind of objective evidence. And it turned up this info I didn't know. I had a long chat with ds tonight about not plowing into me as he does. It actually really hurts my back. I don't want him to feel bad, but he's actually going to have to moderate his behavior, sigh.

So PT would count toward our deductible if the orthoped does the referral, but I still have an $11k deductible, lol. Basically I'm gonna do what's on this cheat sheet and see where it gets me, lol. 

Oh and I'm googling and the steroid injections rarely but occasionally have problems. So we'll see. Therapy is such a never-ending money pit, but I'd probably make faster progress with the right person. I just think I'd probably get better care with a DPT than a chiro.

Edited July 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[moonflower]

chiros, that's all I have to say

[Kanin]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

But yeah he was horrified and couldn’t apologize because his why bother to do imaging approach endangered me.

Yowza! At least he was horrified. But heck no, he's not treating you for 3 more months! 

I can't believe he even said that. You're not going back, right? Except to get your CD, of course.

[cintinative]

I think I missed an update in between. So what exactly did the MRI report show?

Gently, I am not sure this chiro is worth fighting for.  I know you have invested a lot of time and money in him, and that makes it hard. 

[PeterPan]

55 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Yowza! At least he was horrified. But heck no, he's not treating you for 3 more months! 

I can't believe he even said that. You're not going back, right? Except to get your CD, of course.

Yeah, I have to go back for the cd. I just got the orthoped scheduled. He has phenomenal reviews and they're getting me in Tuesday. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sore today. I just think this is beyond this chiropractor.

2 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I think I missed an update in between. So what exactly did the MRI report show?

Gently, I am not sure this chiro is worth fighting for.  I know you have invested a lot of time and money in him, and that makes it hard. 

I think I have sort of a personality that alternates between too rough and letting people bully me. Like I'm sort of a magnet for it and have trouble dealing with disagreeing opinions and conflict. So it becomes easier to stay than to move on, which doesn't help myself. But I MADE the appt with the orthpedic and have it coming up Tuesday. 

So the MRI showed

-bulging L5/S1 (we suspected)

-arthroscopy/facets/arthritis/I have on clue what I'm talking about and thickening of the ligamentum flavum and some stenosis

-stress reaction in the pedicules with edema in the marrow though not yet to the point of fracture

So the chiro had me doing these twisting stretches yesterday, which initially felt better and then made it worse, much worse. I'm still hurting today in the same aggravated way that it provoked yesterday. So no, I'm definitely not allowing him to treat me more right now. He might be really sharp for making sure your form is good for weightlifting, but he is NOT prepared to answer the questions I have about what is safe or to assign things that would protect/heal me. I've already lost 4-5 weeks dorking around. One week was at the lake, but even then my trip was colored by almost constant, significant pain. My mother felt awful watching it, the swimming aggravated it. It was just ridiculous. So my leash is really short and it's over, yanked.

The straw that broke the camel's back was he was willing to wait multiple months before referring. I'm like my lands most sane people would RESPECT a 2nd opinion and think that their treatment stands up to scrutiny or welcome collaboration. Not this guy. He has to be a one stop shop. 

But I figure, if he's blanched, it's time to put him out of his misery. It's just he's the only guy who has gotten my back to adjust AT ALL (without steroids) in 10 years, so I kind of hate to lose him. Like I'd like to be able to go back. I just think you need a PT when you need a PT and that a chiro is not a DPT.  And when I researched the risks on the spinal steroid shots, they were there but SO small. 

So I guess we'll see how conservative this orthoped is. If he looks at it and thinks waiting and doing PT is good, then I'm cool with that. I like conservative. That would be pretty telling if he has the tool and option to do more intervention and doesn't think we need to. But I'm not gonna let some chiro make that decision. He thought getting data would lead to more surgery and now he thinks getting 2nd opinions leads to unnecessary intervention. He's just a little inflated in his world or something.

[alisoncooks]

At least he had the decency to be horrified. 

BUT (!!!)... I wouldn't let that color my next steps. I'd still cut him loose because you obviously need a different approach in care. This sounds like something beyond his expertise. 

[PeterPan]

13 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I suggest that you lead all conversations with new providers with the caveat of, “I am clinically hyporesponsive. I struggle with interoception and my body will vomit and I will not yet have clued in that something is really, really wrong. I cannot be trusted to report pain in a way typical of others’ responses.”

Seriously.

Signed,

the woman who walked on her own shattered bones and freaked out her orthopedist when he saw the MRI

Total aside, but apparently Kelly Mahler is working on a new teen/adult book on interoception and she's developing self-advocacy cards that you can hand to providers or that show what to say to get better care. She said she's running the wording by doctors to see if it actually will make a difference, so we'll see.

[ktgrok]

1> yes to pelvic floor! I have a lot of SI joint pain, and have only recently realized it is triggered more by tightness in the FRONT of my pelvis, not the back where the pain is. Massaging the ligaments/muscles/etc in the FRONT helps my back pain more than doing the same in the area where the pain is. Also, stretching my back doesn't help much, but stretching the front of my hips does. It's all connected.

2. I have had a PT tell me that with back pain, do NOT do things that hurt. Period. This is not a "no pain no gain" type of thing. This is a "you are going to damage yourself permanently if you don't listen to your body" thing. 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

2. I have had a PT tell me that with back pain, do NOT do things that hurt. Period. This is not a "no pain no gain" type of thing. This is a "you are going to damage yourself permanently if you don't listen to your body" thing. 

Interesting. I probably just need to have that appt. I finally have the orthoped scheduled. When I do this video, I feel GOOD. It's hard, but it's good, not painful. 

 

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

1> yes to pelvic floor! I have a lot of SI joint pain, and have only recently realized it is triggered more by tightness in the FRONT of my pelvis, not the back where the pain is. Massaging the ligaments/muscles/etc in the FRONT helps my back pain more than doing the same in the area where the pain is. Also, stretching my back doesn't help much, but stretching the front of my hips does. It's all connected.

interesting. Your hip flexors also run there. But I'm with you that the chiro isn't thinking through the body as a whole as a PT would. 

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

2. I have had a PT tell me that with back pain, do NOT do things that hurt.

That's the thing with the chiro. And I don't understand why he's so off. Like he's a nice guy, says he treats stuff a lot, blah blah. But I think maybe he's treating sport injuries not woman plus pregnancy plus life.

But no. I'm not going back to do his exercises. I just don't think it should hurt afterward like that.

Edited July 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[katilac]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It's just he's the only guy who has gotten my back to adjust AT ALL (without steroids) in 10 years, so I kind of hate to lose him. Like I'd like to be able to go back. 

Why?? He sounds downright dangerous. 

When you say the only guy, do you mean the only chiro? Because it doesn't sound like a chiro is what you need, so you're only going to have so much success with any of them. And, imo, 98% of chiropractors are keen on regular visits and needing to be 'readjusted.' 

Go to his office ASAP and get that CD back in your hands. Go tomorrow if they're open. Don't leave without it. Yes, the ortho may want to do more or his own imaging, but that doesn't mean it won't help for him to see it. And he may be satisfied with it, who knows? Maybe it happens to be the same place he uses. 

While you want to carefully consider ongoing steroid shots, I wouldn't think twice about getting one at your appointment if it's offered. You will likely be amazed at how much better it makes you feel. Then, hopefully you can work on the issues in other ways as well. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

While you want to carefully consider ongoing steroid shots, I wouldn't think twice about getting one at your appointment if it's offered. You will likely be amazed at how much better it makes you feel. Then, hopefully you can work on the issues in other ways as well. 

Wow, you think he'll offer one? I hadn't thought of that. Yes, my uncle had one in his shoulder recently and it brought down the inflammation so much the pain permanently reversed. Now I don't know if my back would be that way, but yes I think would take one. I don't like being grumpy from pain.

They aren't open Saturday and were only open till noon today so I missed picking up the disc. I'll hit it Monday.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

Why?? He sounds downright dangerous. 

Unfortunately, I think he is. He could have been useful on thinking through positioning with weightlifting, etc. But when he gets me in there he's doing stuff and not stopping when I say it hurts. And I don't seem to be enough of a kickboxer to stop him. I just go along with it, sigh. I mean, would you actually stop and say NO, I SAID IT HURTS and refuse to do the thing? Is that what I should be doing? Because that's what I would have had to do. I would have had to be in his face like no, I really said it hurts, let's do something else. And when I said the thing hurt, he's like well let's do it more and see if it still hurts. 

Maybe he has a pea brain and thinks I don't understand the difference between a good stretch and PAIN??? That would be the only reason to ignore the thing I plainly said. But it's also on me that I'm not standing up to that. Should I literally just say no and refuse in an office??? 

[moonflower]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Unfortunately, I think he is. He could have been useful on thinking through positioning with weightlifting, etc. But when he gets me in there he's doing stuff and not stopping when I say it hurts. And I don't seem to be enough of a kickboxer to stop him. I just go along with it, sigh. I mean, would you actually stop and say NO, I SAID IT HURTS and refuse to do the thing? Is that what I should be doing? Because that's what I would have had to do. I would have had to be in his face like no, I really said it hurts, let's do something else. And when I said the thing hurt, he's like well let's do it more and see if it still hurts. 

Maybe he has a pea brain and thinks I don't understand the difference between a good stretch and PAIN??? That would be the only reason to ignore the thing I plainly said. But it's also on me that I'm not standing up to that. Should I literally just say no and refuse in an office??? 

 

Yep.  But actually, I would just never go back and I'd leave a detailed and accurate review anywhere I could find a place to do so.  I wouldn't sue him, so that's something.  I don't think someone who misdiagnosed and mistreated you so badly and for so long should be able to keep doing so without any consequence, but I think public awareness of his incompetence is a fine natural consequence for blind idiocy.

[Liz CA]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:45 PM, PeterPan said:

Sigh, yeah. I think he knew his butt was so on the hotseat on this. 11 years of pain and he acted like it was this momentary, clearcut injury and told me I was complaining too much.

You would think on someone my age (haha) they would just do imaging upfront. But no, insurance denied it (I paid for it myself) and apparently it's sometimes not standard course. But you would think for someone with previous diagnoses that would have shown even on just cheap xrays that SOME kind of imaging should have been done. But nope, insurance wanted 4-6 weeks of PT and xyays before they would cover it. I'm pulled out the old cc and paid for it, cuz that's absurd. No it was my HSA, but still, that blew my mind. Should have been first and instead the policy is to push to last.

Just goes to show we are not well-served by living our lives by statistics. If you're the 1% or 10% that differ, you get screwed. 

 

If a chiro told me I was complaining too much and therefore did not take my issues seriously, I would immediately look for another chiro. Mine did not say this but instead said, "Well, we gave it the old college try," when he was unable to adjust my spine after a bad back episode. This was the last time I saw him.  He appeared to have a limited number of tools at his disposal. The chiro I am seeing now has helped me much more. But chiro care may not be indicated for your condition so it's good to get another opinion...and if you ever return to chiro care, select someone else.

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Unfortunately, I think he is. He could have been useful on thinking through positioning with weightlifting, etc. But when he gets me in there he's doing stuff and not stopping when I say it hurts. And I don't seem to be enough of a kickboxer to stop him. I just go along with it, sigh. I mean, would you actually stop and say NO, I SAID IT HURTS and refuse to do the thing? Is that what I should be doing? Because that's what I would have had to do. I would have had to be in his face like no, I really said it hurts, let's do something else. And when I said the thing hurt, he's like well let's do it more and see if it still hurts. 

Maybe he has a pea brain and thinks I don't understand the difference between a good stretch and PAIN??? That would be the only reason to ignore the thing I plainly said. But it's also on me that I'm not standing up to that. Should I literally just say no and refuse in an office??? 

 

Yes.
Self advocacy is such an important skill, isn't it? You are the one paying, therefore you are the boss.

I think he's a pea brain who slept through the class where they reminded the students that once a woman has a postpartum body, it stays that way forever. Or maybe he slept through the whole term and doesn't realise women have different bodies to men at all.

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Liz CA said:

But chiro care may not be indicated for your condition so it's good to get another opinion...and if you ever return to chiro care, select someone else.

I was thinking about this more. Turns out this orthoped I'm scheduled for is very "all of the above". He had an article in the paper where he said he uses all kinds of things (shots, yoga, chiro, etc.). So I'm thinking he's in a good position to say what to do next *and* to give me a name of a different chiro.

5 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yes.
Self advocacy is such an important skill, isn't it? You are the one paying, therefore you are the boss.

I didn't realize I was supposed to do that. It seems sort of oppositional. Apparently I have baggage on that or am easily bullied or something. I'm going to have to chew hard on that, put on my big girl panties, something. Oh, maybe I just haven't needed to until now? I mean I didn't go to a doctor for how many years, lol. I wasn't really developing my self-advocacy skill set, only my run from self-care skill. 

5 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think he's a pea brain who slept through the class where they reminded the students that once a woman has a postpartum body, it stays that way forever. Or maybe he slept through the whole term and doesn't realise women have different bodies to men at all.

Hahaha, so true! He may literally not get it. 

Well I'm so tired of my lower back hurting in this one spot. If the doc offers a shot, I'm taking him up on it. I'm really looking forward to that option. It actually makes sense to me. Like reduce the inflammation then do some things to get it back in order. Of course I'm not looking forward to the thought of a SHOT, but I won't think about that, lol. 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Liz CA said:

If a chiro told me I was complaining too much and therefore did not take my issues seriously, I would immediately look for another chiro. Mine did not say this but instead said, "Well, we gave it the old college try," when he was unable to adjust my spine after a bad back episode. This was the last time I saw him. 

So if you want to know how bad my back care or self care has been, the chiro I was seeing hasn't been able to adjust my lower back for 10 years and I just let it go. And he would always say things like oh sugar, oh you aren't standing evenly, blah blah. I was busy with ds and I just figured if he couldn't get it then my body was just too tight. 

So that's probably why I'm in this pickle, because I let things fester and didn't solve them then. The only time it would adjust with him was when I was on steroids for pneumonia/bronchitis. Other than that, a mess. So I was feeling it and didn't move on.

That's the other thing I didn't like. It's not right to blame anyone but me, because I'm a big girl and I did that. They're idiots and unqualified and should have said something, sure. But *I* did it.

[PeterPan]

32 minutes ago, seekinghim45 said:

YES THAT IS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

I had no clue. I'm going to be much more demanding at this point, thanks. I'm going to have to talk myself into it, lol. I just didn't realize women did this. I knew ornery men would, just to be oppositional or lazy or unwilling to do hard things. And I'm ok with hurting for things that are supposed to hurt. (cleaning 3rd degree burns, whatever) But it's just so odd and non-collaborative and ignorant to say keep doing it when I SAID it hurt. So now I know.

34 minutes ago, seekinghim45 said:

I know I'm a bit biased because I am married to an orthopaedic surgeon, but this guy is awful.   My husband will admit that there are situations where people can find them helpful, but unfortunately he has had many people in his office over the last quarter of a century that were injured by chiropractors. 

Interesting. I've kind of gotten the wool pulled off my eyes too, sigh. Not qualified to do what they're doing basically. To continue treating and not refer off is just too much. And it would be sort of expected with a total novice, but this guy is in an established practice! He's clearly been doing this a while and supervised and he's just kinda reckless. Even just my age and the fact that I had two large pregnancies should have been enough to have said let's do SOME kind of imaging. Me saying I have had the problems for 10 years should have been enough. That would have been respectful of my body.

I even have a relative studying to be a chiro, so it's kind of a sainted profession on one side of the family. Not anymore, not with me. Overzealous, under-trained idiots.

[kbutton]

You can have a high pain tolerance on top of being under-responsive. I have high pain tolerance, but I am hyper-responsive as well. It just depends on the kind of pain and its location. Myofascial pain lights me up. Birthing a baby? Sure, it hurts, but I get a high like people who like running get a high, lol. (But I could do without transition!) 

Also, some people experience pain as being nauseating, and in my case, I am more likely to have that kind of feeling if my pain is related to exquisitely tight muscles (like a tension headache). It's in the realm of potential responses. Knowing that you're going to vomit before it happens sounds like a good step. Don't go too far--I know about 45 minutes before I do and can't speed it up. It's awful, lol! 

 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

You can have a high pain tolerance on top of being under-responsive. I have high pain tolerance, but I am hyper-responsive as well. It just depends on the kind of pain and its location. Myofascial pain lights me up. Birthing a baby? Sure, it hurts, but I get a high like people who like running get a high, lol. (But I could do without transition!) 

Also, some people experience pain as being nauseating, and in my case, I am more likely to have that kind of feeling if my pain is related to exquisitely tight muscles (like a tension headache). It's in the realm of potential responses. Knowing that you're going to vomit before it happens sounds like a good step. Don't go too far--I know about 45 minutes before I do and can't speed it up. It's awful, lol! 

 

Hmm, I don't know. I had about 40 seconds of warning on the vomiting. That's pretty interesting if you're saying you have more warning. Wouldn't have occurred to me. And even then I wasn't totally positive so I just went to the bathroom just in case. 

For me it's almost like a form of dissociating. I have to make a lot of *effort* to find the signals and get them and figure out what they mean. And I'm realizing too that these practitioners ask too many questions too rapidly that I'm not prepared to answer. Like I don't actually know what *hurt* means vs. simply *feeling* it. Like if hurt is your arm is chopped off and it's bleeding out (which actually means you'd go into shock and not feel it), then I seldom HURT. But I feel things. And if fine is not feeling/noticing it, then feeling it is pain. But I don't think feeling it is supposed to be pain and nobody actually slows down and helps you put words to exactly what it feels like. They just talk over you and go oh it's sharp pain, right? And I'm like no, I didn't say that. I can "feel" it's there but I don't know what I'm feeling, only that I'm feeling something.

So it's a self-advocacy problem. Kelly Mahler is working on some new teen/adult materials and making something to help people tell their doctors what they need to have better care. I mean literally, my inability to realize my body pain and the extent of it has endangered me almost to the point of having a broken back. I had zero clue. Even now, I'm like fine, I'll go to the gym, when I go I feel better. But I'm thinking nope, probably oughta wait till I see a legit MD and actually get some advice, lol. 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

So it's a self-advocacy problem.

I don't disagree. 🙂 I guess I just think it's possible for you to have two hurdles: understanding your body's different signals as well as having high pain tolerance. Like, if you could go from not feeling = no pain and feeling = pain to something more typical, you might still be a person who can function with pain (be calm, keep moving, etc.) better than someone else.

Doctors do go too fast a lot of the time. But you know I don't have great luck with medical professionals either. I tolerate my chiropractor because he helps, but he has THE SAME PERSONALITY as the vast majority of arrogant medical professionals do, lol! But he's learning and growing, which I can't say for my GP. 

I hope the doctor is fantastic and can do exactly what you need--it sounds like he has a broad background, which helps.

[kbutton]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Hmm, I don't know. I had about 40 seconds of warning on the vomiting. That's pretty interesting if you're saying you have more warning. Wouldn't have occurred to me. And even then I wasn't totally positive so I just went to the bathroom just in case. 

I am at the extreme other end. I don't think most people are like me. That's why I warned you to not get too good at knowing you're going to vomit. Sometimes, I don't know if I am or am not, but I know that if I will, it starts with the same feeling and then either goes away or doesn't. If I am sick with some stomach bug, it's usually only the first time I vomit that I know that far in advance. After that, it could be any length of time.

*Once* I had almost no warning, but I woke up with a stabbing pain in my head and terrible nausea--turns out I was getting a kind of rapid onset migraine. I have had several more, but only once did I actually vomit (dry heaves, middle of the night). It could be that if I am conscious, I just dread it so badly that I make it take longer.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have a wonderful chiropractor.  He literally has kept me mobile for the past 20 years.  But he never ever hurts me.  And he always listens to me.  He helps me in a way that other specialists cannot help me.  He never contradicts my allopathic doctor.  He never tries to go outside of his specialty (the skeleton - esp. the spine) and never tries to sell me nutritional supplements or to try to dissuade me from allopathic medicine as I have heard some chiropractors are prone to do. 

I did have one chiro substitute (while my wonderful chiro was on vacation) who hurt me badly.  He did a therapy which supposedly helps a lot of people but I was in terrible pain as soon as he started.  I told him to stop.  He tried to coax me into continuing.  I told him even more loudly to stop.  He did but even then was still arguing with me that I should have continued.  I lost it on him and told him to get out of the room and to stop touching me (not inappropriate or anything - it just hurt too much).  I wrote a long very detailed letter to my regular chiropractor about what happened and why I never ever wanted him as a substitute for any procedure again.  My regular chiropractor was very apologetic and validated everything I said.

Medical professionals including chiropractors need to respect their patients - their wishes and their bodies. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

  I told him to stop.  He tried to coax me into continuing.  I told him even more loudly to stop.

See that's where you're better than me, because that's what he was doing (though more forcefully) and I did the 1950s subservient thing and just let him. Now I know I have to keep my fur up. 

I'm hoping the new orthoped will have a better name for a chiro. I'm not opposed, but the sheen is off on the "chiro as spine expert" gig.

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Medical professionals including chiropractors need to respect their patients - their wishes and their bodies. 

Yup, that's what was lacking, respect. And I think that happens when you're out of tools and don't have the honesty to admit it. As soon as he said he would wait 3-4 months to refer me, I'm like I am SO outta here. That's way too long with a complex situation that has already gone backwards because of you. 

Ironically, my GP and I get on great. I just wasn't doing so well self-advocating with the chiro. Now I know to have my fur up and my self-protector on and to blast through stupidity. But that was why I needed the MRI, which at least he gave me. Without that I didn't have info to be sure it was incorrect.

[Rosie_0801]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I didn't realize I was supposed to do that. It seems sort of oppositional. Apparently I have baggage on that or am easily bullied or something. I'm going to have to chew hard on that, put on my big girl panties, something. Oh, maybe I just haven't needed to until now? I mean I didn't go to a doctor for how many years, lol. I wasn't really developing my self-advocacy skill set, only my run from self-care skill. 

 

If our kids are meant to learn to self advocate, we are too.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

If our kids are meant to learn to self advocate, we are too.

See that's the irony! I'm very proud of how I've taught my dd to self-advocate and my ds. Then I come along and let some 28-30 yo jerk walk all over me and pander and hurt me. I was really stupid.

Correction, I was inexperienced. Now I know better.

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

See that's the irony! I'm very proud of how I've taught my dd to self-advocate and my ds. Then I come along and let some 28-30 yo jerk walk all over me and pander and hurt me. I was really stupid.

Correction, I was inexperienced. Now I know better.

 

You didn't create the Cult of the Expert.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

You didn't create the Cult of the Expert.

Oh sigh, that's probably it. I wanted him to be an expert and was letting him be... So I was stroking his ego while he was pandering to mine? That's GROSS. 

But yeah, I think I'm leaving the Cult of Chiro... They seem to know how to crack backs and be untrustworthy for anything else.

[Ottakee]

Do you have another adult that can go with you to your appointment next week?  It helps to have someone else take notes, remind you of something you might be forgetting, or just be there for moral support.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Do you have another adult that can go with you to your appointment next week?  It helps to have someone else take notes, remind you of something you might be forgetting, or just be there for moral support.

Hmm, that's an idea I hadn't thought of. You're right, this is getting complicated enough, it might be wise.

[TravelingChris]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:47 PM, PeterPan said:

Unfortunately, I think he is. He could have been useful on thinking through positioning with weightlifting, etc. But when he gets me in there he's doing stuff and not stopping when I say it hurts. And I don't seem to be enough of a kickboxer to stop him. I just go along with it, sigh. I mean, would you actually stop and say NO, I SAID IT HURTS and refuse to do the thing? Is that what I should be doing? Because that's what I would have had to do. I would have had to be in his face like no, I really said it hurts, let's do something else. And when I said the thing hurt, he's like well let's do it more and see if it still hurts. 

Maybe he has a pea brain and thinks I don't understand the difference between a good stretch and PAIN??? That would be the only reason to ignore the thing I plainly said. But it's also on me that I'm not standing up to that. Should I literally just say no and refuse in an office??? 

YES,

I was in a hospital where they were trying to figure out why I has having chest pains-heart attack, pulmonary embolism, other issues arising from my underlying autoimmune conditions, etc.  They had already ruled out heart attack but were keeping me overnight to do the nucleur lung test to see if I had a blood clot in my lungs since I have a few clotting conditions and am on blood thinners--- yes, I am on blood thinners.  At 3 in the morning, the nurse wakes me and tries to get me to take medicine- I ask what is it--- she says the doctor ordered aspirin----- even though I am groggy, I tell her I am on blood thinners and can't have aspirin and did the doctor know that when he ordered the aspirin?  Of course not.  

[TravelingChris]

On 7/20/2019 at 4:30 AM, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Yes.
Self advocacy is such an important skill, isn't it? You are the one paying, therefore you are the boss.

I think he's a pea brain who slept through the class where they reminded the students that once a woman has a postpartum body, it stays that way forever. Or maybe he slept through the whole term and doesn't realise women have different bodies to men at all.

 

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So if you want to know how bad my back care or self care has been, the chiro I was seeing hasn't been able to adjust my lower back for 10 years and I just let it go. And he would always say things like oh sugar, oh you aren't standing evenly, blah blah. I was busy with ds and I just figured if he couldn't get it then my body was just too tight. 

So that's probably why I'm in this pickle, because I let things fester and didn't solve them then. The only time it would adjust with him was when I was on steroids for pneumonia/bronchitis. Other than that, a mess. So I was feeling it and didn't move on.

That's the other thing I didn't like. It's not right to blame anyone but me, because I'm a big girl and I did that. They're idiots and unqualified and should have said something, sure. But *I* did it.

Because that is the only time your arthritis was reduced too and your joints became more flexible.

I would strongly recommend that you ask for he HLA B27 test because what you are saying about how you can only be adjusted with sterioids, your pain patterns and the article you linked above talked about spondyleosis.  Ankolosing Spondylosis is a autoimmune arthritis that affects the spine, neck, sacroilliac joints, heel pain, and all sorts of other things and steroids are one of the things that helps.  But the treatment for that is very different than for osteoarthritis or some of the other possible circumstantis.  AS has been very underdiagnosed in females because so many of the practictioners keep listening and reading the old stuff about how it is young males.  Females have a different presentation and are often ignored for many years,.

BTW, the same kind of horrible treatment (or should I say non treatment) often happens to males if they have a disease that primarily has female victims.  I see it from both sides since Lupus and Sjogren's Syndrome have a very skewed female predominance and the males are often ignored by doctors and AS has a male skewing.  Then RA is slightly more common in females but enough men get it so that doctors tend to not ignore their symptoms.

[kbutton]

On 7/21/2019 at 7:43 AM, TravelingChris said:

Ankolosing Spondylosis is a autoimmune arthritis that affects the spine, neck, sacroilliac joints, heel pain, and all sorts of other things and steroids are one of the things that helps. 

Not to derail, but I have a question...does the pain in these areas present as bone pain or myofascial pain? And do myofascial release techniques help pain due to this disorder?

[PeterPan]

On July 21, 2019 at 7:43 AM, TravelingChris said:

HLA B27 test

Ok I looked up the gene for this a few weeks ago and I think my results were funny, like grey but not considered a hit or something. So is this test a blood test for the protein? I'm just googling it here. Looks like it can be affordable.

So I would have *thought* that Ankylosing Spondylitis would have looked distinctive on the imaging, kwim? I don't know, just seems that way to me.