WWYD - anger issues with a fellow student - double standard?

[PrincessMommy]

So i have this issue in one of my classes at Community college.  In my weaving class (ART 200 level) there is a fellow mature student who seems to have issues with anger.   She has lashed out in class a couple of times.  Yesterday was another time and it seemed to have escalated.   She doesn't lash out at any of us.. it's more like frustrated with a situation and letting off steam, but bigger than that. Yesterday she was frustrated with changing some things on the loom.  She was doing a lot of muttering and grring (yes GRRRR) and basically showing her frustration.  Then she let out a howl scream.. she was very frustrated and angry. It was very uncomfortable and awkward.  We all jumped.   This is the first time she's ever let out a scream, but she's shown anger and lost her temper in about 3-4 of the 8 classes we've had, so not every class.  But, this is college. I don't expect these types of outbursts in college. - esp not with a mature (60yr old) student.   

Other than these outbursts, she's quite nice and informative to the class.  We get along well and she's always willing to chat about ideas.  Our teacher is in her 20s and very sweet.  I don't think she's comfortable speaking up or confronting this woman. 

My MO is to just stay out of her way or try to be a calming presence.  Yesterday when she was super frustrated I offered to help her to help defuse the situation.   Another mature student did the same thing.  The younger kids just kept their heads down and minded their own business.  She didn't seem embarrassed by her anger (I'd be mortified if I had that kind of public outburst).  But, it made me wonder.  We kind of put up with it with her, but if she was a  young person of color (esp. a young man) would we give them the same grace?  Should we even have this double standard with this student?   It's a weird and uncomfortable situation.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by PrincessMommy

[marbel]

I suppose it's possible the woman has a disability that causes the behavior, but I wouldn't necessarily jump to that conclusion.  But I am probably biased - my daughter is studying art at our local CC. There are a lot of mature women in her classes, taking art for fun.  (Seniors can take classes very cheaply here.)  She sometimes gets frustrated by some of the older women who seem to be "needy" and constantly call the instructor over to help them, even when he/she is helping another student, or are rude to the younger students (talking over them, discounting their opinions) or generally being very loud. After all, they are there for pleasure, but the younger students are there for a degree or certificate program.  I do see a bit of a conflict.  

If it's disruptive to other students, it should be addressed. If it's creating a difficult learning environment, it should be addressed.  Does the woman have special needs or is she just easily frustrated and can't control it? (Rhetorical question 'cause I assume you don't know.)   But if it's just annoying every now and then, and everyone can keep working, then maybe it's not really a big deal.  I would assume if there is a disability, the instructor is aware and can take appropriate measures if the student ever does lash out at anyone.

But yeah, I think you are right that it would likely not be tolerated as well if it were a younger person, particularly someone who doesn't "fit in" with the general population of the school/class.

ETA: I should add: there are also some very nice older students in my daughter's classes, who are not disruptive, not nasty, but rather make supportive comments toward the younger students and are just generally a joy to be around. It's not all negative. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by marbel

[ktgrok]

Maybe she's just naturally vocal/loud with her thoughts. I'd ignore it. 

[maize]

Sounds like a disability to me.

As for your question, yes I imagine an older white female with a disruptive disability will be given more grace than a young minority person or any minority person. Unfortunate but true.

The response isn't to give her less grace but to give them more.

[Tap]

We all live in a world surrounded by people with varying levels of disabilities and different levels of how they vocalize frustration. They can be one in the same, but they aren't necessarily. I would voice your discomfort to the instructor and leave it at that. Maybe the student has control and since no one is complaining, she is letting her frustrations fly and just assumes no one else cares. OR maybe the instructor knows that the student has a disability plan that allows for controlled vocalizations (as long as they are not harmful to others). Let the instructor handle it, but now that you know about this student, next time they are enrolled in a class with you, drop the class the first week.  

BTW...before anyone flames me, please  know that I live in the world of disabilities, and have a daughter with Autism (who can cuss like a proverbial sailor when she is mad). That doesn't mean she gets to scream or howl when she is frustrated in a classroom without consequences. Yes, her consequences may be different, but they still exist. Her rights do not supersede those of others around her.  Mistakes will happen, but if my daughter couldn't hold it together more than 50% of classes, then the learning environment is not right for her (especially in an elective class).

Edited March 30, 2019 by Tap

[PrincessMommy]

I would not assume she has a disability,  but I guess that's a possibility.   I definitely plan to just ignore as best I can.  But, it is a very odd experience.  

I've never seen an older student act the way your daughter described.  Of course, I am an older student too  😏- although I am going for a degree and not taking it for fun.  

[EMS83]

OP mentioned a loom?  idk what that could be besides the things from the Middle Ages that wove tapestries, lol. 

[Another Lynn]

My concern would be if the teacher doesn't seem comfortable with the situation then she is either uninformed of the woman's disability or the woman doesn't have a documented disability.  Either of these would concern me and I would wonder if there was an appropriate person / department to discuss the situation with.  

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, CES2005 said:

OP mentioned a loom?  idk what that could be besides the things from the Middle Ages that wove tapestries, lol. 

LOL-  I'm a weaver.  I weave cloth.  I have this on my loom at home for my sister:

 

 

I'm taking the class because I need some 200 level classes to graduate and weaving more is a plus in my book.  🙂   I did get to learn tapestry weaving in this class, which is something I've never done.  I really loved it and am inspired by some great artists.  

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by PrincessMommy

[J-rap]

It does sound like some disability or spectrum condition...  I'd probably just put up with it or if I felt comfortable (as you seemed to), step in now and then and try and calmly distract her or help her.  

I think people would be less patient with younger students (of any race) doing the same thing because we'd assume it was just a maturity issue for them...  that they hadn't yet learned to control their emotions.  (But still within the realm of neuro-typical -- just maybe a little selfish?)  But for a far older person, I'd be more suspicious of a real problem.

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, what jumped into my head was wondering whether she is in physical pain and it is preventing her from being patient.  Lots o people that age have arthritis or other painful conditions, and it takes longer to heal than when they were younger.  

[Tap]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

You know, what jumped into my head was wondering whether she is in physical pain and it is preventing her from being patient.  Lots o people that age have arthritis or other painful conditions, and it takes longer to heal than when they were younger.  

LOL funny how different minds work. My first thought was.....as people age they care less about what others think and start to buffer less. 60ish isn't too old, but brains age at different speeds, so this could be part of her issue. Some people start to actually loose some cognition and are more likely to make questionable judgement calls (same reason spammers often target the elderly). Maybe she is just a cooky old lady who is living her life! LOL

[SKL]

I have a close relative who behaves similarly.  She does not seem to realize how loud and erratic she sounds.  She does not have a diagnosis afaik, but that could be because she never sought one.  Unfortunately, she has had difficulty in job & social situations because other people read a lot of negativity into her speech and behavior patterns.

At 60 there could also be some mental deterioration if she has a health issue such as Alzheimers.  A brain tumor is also a possibility.  Or even reaction to a medication.  So many possibilities.

I agree with assuming it's a disability - for your own mental peace.

[Mothersweets]

16 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

LOL-  I'm a weaver.  I weave cloth.  I have this on my loom at home for my sister:

 

 

I'm taking the class because I need some 200 level classes to graduate and weaving more is a plus in my book.  🙂   I did get to learn tapestry weaving in this class, which is something I've never done.  I really loved it and am inspired by some great artists.  

 

This is beautiful! How long have you been weaving?

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, Mothersweets said:

This is beautiful! How long have you been weaving?

almost 10yrs.   Thank you. 

[Mothersweets]

I've always thought it must be such meditative, peaceful work. Really lovely!

Hopefully the woman in your class will not be  disruptive any longer - it would be kind of frightening!

[katilac]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:31 PM, Ktgrok said:

Maybe she's just naturally vocal/loud with her thoughts. I'd ignore it. 

 

I would have rather a hard time ignoring someone howling in class, lol. I'm sensitive to certain noises, yeah, but I imagine it's quite distracting to everyone. Muttering and growling, yes, I'd ignore. 

Naturally loud, not NT, whatever, I think it's perfectly fine to ask her to try and tone it down. If it turns out that she isn't able to do so, you take it from there, but there's nothing rude about asking. (that's a general response, not in answer to you, Kt)

[LucyStoner]

A lot of people with anger issues are trauma survivors.  I try to remember that in these types of situations.  

[PrincessMommy]

   

@Ktgrok - I mean it's possible she's naturally loud, but that's not normally the way she is in class.  I would describe it as outbursts of anger/frustration.  

@katilac - I agree.  Her frustrations and raising of her voice in annoyance are easy enough to ignore  but the howl was quite startling.  

[PrincessMommy]

25 minutes ago, OKBud said:

You could also just say, "hey honey, do you need a hand?" when she howls. Or, "ha! a loom wolf!" or whatever friendly thing. It seems unlikely, but maybe she doesn't realize what she's doing, or how loud she is when she does it.

@OKBud um.. you've read the OP?   Here I'll post that portion you missed for you....    

 

On 3/30/2019 at 3:39 PM, PrincessMommy said:

My MO is to just stay out of her way or try to be a calming presence.  Yesterday when she was super frustrated I offered to help her to help defuse the situation.   Another mature student did the same thing.  The younger kids just kept their heads down and minded their own business.  

As an aside: she is working on a loom called a Wolf Pup.  😏

@HeighHo  -  That's interesting.  I think I might reach out to our instructor first if there's another outburst like last class.  

[unsinkable]

I've participated in many, many hands-on classes in the crafting & knitting world although none at the college level so there is a casual atmosphere that I am assuming is not the same BUT at nearly every type of class, women (it is almost all women) get frustrated. And are vocal about it...muttering, cursing, growling, yelling...not howling, tho.

But in college classes, particularly math classes, and gym classes (I took them for fun but it was mostly phys ed majors)...there is much of the same muttering, cursing, growling...mostly coming from the young men.

I've never considered that any of them could be a learning difference or an issue of that sort. Just a very high level of frustration in stressful situations (particularly the math exams. I remember once a young guy going FU*K loud enough the entire class heard it. And some of the guys REALLY got po'ed in games in gym and everyone knew it. It wasn't a big deal.

 

[Heathermomster]

I don’t know...The last rigid heddle loom that I warped required 3 glasses of wine and a brick of dark chocolate.  In a class, I would expect some help from an instructor but I’m a newbie.  Looms test every ounce of my patience, but I’m not swearing in front of strangers over it.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Heathermomster

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, unsinkable said:

I've participated in many, many hands-on classes in the crafting & knitting world although none at the college level so there is a casual atmosphere that I am assuming is not the same BUT at nearly every type of class, women (it is almost all women) get frustrated. And are vocal about it...muttering, cursing, growling, yelling...not howling, tho.

But in college classes, particularly math classes, and gym classes (I took them for fun but it was mostly phys ed majors)...there is much of the same muttering, cursing, growling...mostly coming from the young men.

I've never considered that any of them could be a learning difference or an issue of that sort. Just a very high level of frustration in stressful situations (particularly the math exams. I remember once a young guy going FU*K loud enough the entire class heard it. And some of the guys REALLY got po'ed in games in gym and everyone knew it. It wasn't a big deal.

 

I hadn't thought about the comparison to PE classes.   I would say these classes are pretty low-key.  Instructor puts on New Agey music and there's a lot of quietness while people work, or small conversations.  Some of the younger students have ear-buds.  I've taken several math classes and never encountered that.  Sure, people are confused but no mutterings or cursings - at least not in class. I know I did my fair share of cursing and mutterings over math when I was at home.