I am beyond frustrated at this potential bailout of auto manufacturers.

[Margaret in GA]

Is that figure only hourly wages or is it hourly wages and all benefits?

 

That refers to labor costs, not the actual hourly wage. I found a few websites that stated it was slightly higher for GM ($27/hr) vs. Toyota ($21/hr) All the other labor costs are health care and penisons.

 

Margaret

[Melissa in FL]

...but the topic of exhorbitant wages paid to unionized workers has been brought up as a major contributing factor in the decline of domestic auto manufacturers. Do you (all of us in general) view that as a real problem?

 

Here's an article about that subject. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Autos/story?id=1334996

 

It's the wages, but more of the pensions and health care for the retired workers. There are 2.5 retired workers for every one worker. These are not things Toyota and Honda have to deal with. I know a lot of companies that made pensions and health care available back in the 50's never thought people would live so long. My kids great-grandfather worked for 30 years and got an awesome pension/healthcare plan. He and great-grandmother never have to worry about money. The problem: He only worked 30 years and has been collecting those benefits for nearly 40 years. His income from just the pension is way more than he ever made as an hourly employee. I mean he collects about 10 times what he ever made.

 

As a Detroiter for 15 years I have very mixed feelings about the whole thing. But, I can't continue right now, I have to take dd to ballet.

 

One last thought before I go. When dh and I were talking about the auto bailout the one thing he brought up was American History. One reason we were able to win WWII was because we could quickly turn our auto plants into making tanks and planes for our military. It's a bit concerning that they might not be there and we would only have "foreign" owned companies to turn to in a world crisis.

Melissa

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

 

Awwww, but it's tradition!

 

At least once a decade some auto exec or another comes, hat in hand, to beg for money. Our beloved congress then conducts a show trial, first admonishing them for their irresponsibility, poor management, excessive pay and bonuses, then promptly pays up (least they lose the union and corporatist campaign contributions).

 

It's like the Running of the Bulls or Hailey's Comet.

 

Meanwhile....Atlas Shrugs.

[Spy Car]

Spy Car wept.

 

If the big 3 car companies were to fail, this economy would go from being in recession into a full blown Depression. Did you all see the "Perfect Storm"? Do you not understand how interconnected the economy is? The ripple effect of such huge job losses would set off a cascading wave of failures in businesses (seemingly) unrelated to the "auto" industry.

 

And the costs of a failure to the government would almost certainly be higher (much higher) than if a restructuring is a success. If the auto companies fail the government is on the hook for pension guarantees (a staggering sum) and unemployment insurance. Any mainstream economist would tell you it would cost less to keep the Auto companies afloat than to let them fail.

 

Fortunately the economic team of the outgoing Bush administration and the incoming Obama Administration have a keen understanding of Macro-Economics, and are not going to let it happen. Thank goodness!!!

 

The new Administration has as a key goal making America the leader (or at least a leader) in "Green Technologies", cleaner burning cars running on "domestic fuel". With a vision correction, good jobs can be maintained (and added to) and we can do good things for the environment at the same time.

 

In times of recession (especially very serious ones, such as now) you need something to be an engine in the economy. Re-tooling our industry to green-energy has to be that engine.

 

Bill

[HRAAB]

Just wanted the chance to state (before it gets deleted) that I am totally opposed to the auto manufacturers bailout. I was on the fence about the other, one but this I'm way on the other side.

 

Janet

[lovemyboys]

:iagree:

 

I keep hearing "The economy can't survive if we go under!" but I can't help but think that Toyota and Honda are already working on a plan for picking up the slack....:D

 

Yes. The unions must be getting nervous about this.

 

Just this morning I heard an uber-patriotic ad talking about supporting our veterans, that it's the right thing to do. The ad was harkening back to WWII and the auto industry's support of our national defense, manufacturing the equipment our troops needed, etc.

 

The ad went on for at least a minute with stirring music in the background. It ended with the conclusion that now it's time for America to support the auto industry. Contact your representatives to tell them to vote in favor of the bailout to help the companies and the unions.

[mcconnellboys]

I'm not sure why we don't just have the government buy $25 million in cars and give them out in a lottery to US citizens....

[Parrothead]

I'm not sure why we don't just have the government buy $25 million in cars and give them out in a lottery to US citizens....

I'd buy a ticket for that. At least the purchase of tickets would recoup some of the $$$$.

[Renee in NC]

I'd buy a ticket for that. At least the purchase of tickets would recoup some of the $$$$.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[RoughCollie]

"The mothballing of cars is nothing new for Detroit, where thousands of unwanted American-made cars have been parked over the last two years at Michigan’s state fairground and in lots at its airports."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&oref=slogin

[Renee in NC]

"The mothballing of cars is nothing new for Detroit, where thousands of unwanted American-made cars have been parked over the last two years at Michigan’s state fairground and in lots at its airports."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&oref=slogin

 

The lowered demand for steel is causing problems, too.

 

This from the article:

 

Toyota has adjusted its output to reflect falling demand, said Sona Iliffe-Moon, a Toyota spokeswoman.

 

 

 

I think, though, that it costs Toyota much less to do this due to lack of contracts requiring that they pay wages to idle employees.

[Mama Lynx]

Spy Car wept.

 

If the big 3 car companies were to fail, this economy would go from being in recession into a full blown Depression. Did you all see the "Perfect Storm"? Do you not understand how interconnected the economy is? The ripple effect of such huge job losses would set off a cascading wave of failures in businesses (seemingly) unrelated to the "auto" industry.

 

 

Bill

 

Yes. Things would get bad. For awhile. Then the situation would correct. Auto-makers with sane business practices and better products would get a larger share of the market, and life goes on.

 

Bad business practices should not be rewarded by throwing money at them.

[Spy Car]

Yes. Things would get bad. For awhile. Then the situation would correct. Auto-makers with sane business practices and better products would get a larger share of the market, and life goes on.

 

Bad business practices should not be rewarded by throwing money at them.

 

Economies do not "auto-correct" when they are in the middle of a bad downward spiral. A failing auto industry would lead to a cascade of other failures.

 

In a "normal" economic times, the failure of inefficient businesses is to be expected and is in many ways good and necessary. These are not normal economic times. It is possible to rescue the economy, the alternative of financial collapse is an impossibly dire thing to contemplate.

 

Now is a time for pragmatism and steady nerves.

 

Bill

[Jennifer in NH]

Yes. Things would get bad. For awhile. Then the situation would correct. Auto-makers with sane business practices and better products would get a larger share of the market, and life goes on.

 

Bad business practices should not be rewarded by throwing money at them.

Wonderfully put! I could not agree more. no matter how dire those consequenses are, things, in the end will correct themselves...sometimes it just takes years, ala the Great Depression...and yes, having 2 parents who grew up during those times i am well aware of just how bad things can get. I still do not need to have companies that are "too big to fail". Nothing is too big to fail, the earth and the United States will recover...we aren't that weak( i am not speaking financially here).

That's my 2 cents and now i need to go make dinner....

[Melinda in VT]

Just wanted the chance to state (before it gets deleted) that I am totally opposed to the auto manufacturers bailout. I was on the fence about the other, one but this I'm way on the other side.

 

Janet

 

See, I'm just the opposite. I was totally opposed to the previous bailout but I'm on the fence about this one.

[Tutor]

 

Yes, I heard someone (I think it was Peter ???? can't remember his last name, wrote a book about the coming economic collapse....) said that fear is what balances greed.

 

Was it Peter Schiff?

[Spy Car]

Well if we don't mind a decade or more of Worldwide Economic Depression then maybe we could just cock-a-snoot at Detroit.

 

But I'm just less keen on total economic collapse than some of you all.

 

Bill

[mcconnellboys]

We could pair those with the FEMA trailers still parked in big lots down in south Mississippi and make a great Christmas for a lot of folks.....

[clwcain]

But I'm just less keen on total economic collapse than some of you all.

 

If the house of cards is that fundamentally unstable, let if fall.

[Nestof3]

I still don't understand why we don't give the money to the American people,

 

Well, b/c the money is taken from the American people. Why take it just to give it back? Just do neither.

 

I honestly don't have the answers to any of it, but I do know that companies (and gov'ts) need to operate the same way families should -- not living beyond means and not assuming income will never change. I honestly don't care how much a CEO makes, but he had better not come crying for a bailout until he cuts himself down to only that which is necessary to life before asking for monetary assistance from the taxpayers. I feel this way about everyone.

[Ria]

Yes.

 

And what about those private jets that the financially-strapped (read: completely and totally in debt beyond what their companies are worth) auto execs flew in to DC in?

 

Ricola

[lovemyboys]

Ah' date=' yes..Lee Iacocca's $1 salary vs this...

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6285739&page=1

 

But let's give them lots of taxpayer money, please...:glare:

 

It makes it hard to believe they are serious. I do not begrudge CEOs a high salary for very high pressure work. But when you want MY money, please don't fly a private jet at $20,000 a flight to beg for it.[/quote']

 

Wonderful.

 

Notice also that it's "jets," so they couldn't even fly in together. double harrumph.:glare::glare:

[Jami]

I'm not sure why we don't just have the government buy $25 million in cars and give them out in a lottery to US citizens....

 

Or commission a fleet of green technology cars in exchange for the money. Then the auto industry HAS to develop the technology to fulfill the order and the technology gets developed. And gov't folks set an example driving more environmentally friendly vehicles.

 

Or public transportation be increasingly developed to cut back on individual car usage. I'd MAKE those companies earn this money in a way that actually benefits the average tax payers. Most of whom don't drive Escalades.

[Spy Car]

See, that's the thing. Some of us think we are in for at least a decade of depression come hell or high water and don't see any point in throwing away money on something that is dying. It's just delaying the catastrophe and making it worse.

 

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on this one Bill. Nothing will stop the depression. Millions will be out of work. It will be a huge disaster and our government going further into debt to prop up a dying industry isn't going to help us back out of said depression.

 

But the thing is we don't have to "throw away money". We need to transform many aspects of our economy (the auto industry included). This is an opportunity to build a green economy, and to mitigate the severity of the economic crisis in the process.

 

We can't have "business as usual", I agree there. But new technologies, such as the "Volt" are on the horizon. It's time to convert to 21st Century technology. A nation (and indeed a whole world) that is on its back will not be able to make the transition to clean fuels that needs to occur if we let the whole house of cards fall.

 

Bill

[Michelle in MO]

through all the responses, but my husband is against corporate welfare, and I agree with him. We cannot bail out everyone! It isn't financially possible! If the constant bailouts don't stop, I'm afraid our economy will really go under. We just can't keep this up.

[Cornerstone Classical]

But the thing is we don't have to "throw away money". We need to transform many aspects of our economy (the auto industry included). This is an opportunity to build a green economy, and to mitigate the severity of the economic crisis in the process.

 

We can't have "business as usual", I agree there. But new technologies, such as the "Volt" are on the horizon. It's time to convert to 21st Century technology. A nation (and indeed a whole world) that is on its back will not be able to make the transition to clean fuels that needs to occur if we let the whole house of cards fall.

 

Bill

 

I'm just wondering how the impending new corporate tax hikes will effect this? Will US auto makers get tax relief to implement new technology? And gain faith to become innovative? What about other businesses or corporations who are linked to the auto industry? They are facing not only being hurt by the big 3's instability, but all the higher taxes they will have to pay will be the nail in the coffin. I don't see this getting any better.

[8filltheheart]

But the thing is we don't have to "throw away money". We need to transform many aspects of our economy (the auto industry included). This is an opportunity to build a green economy, and to mitigate the severity of the economic crisis in the process.

 

We can't have "business as usual", I agree there. But new technologies, such as the "Volt" are on the horizon. It's time to convert to 21st Century technology. A nation (and indeed a whole world) that is on its back will not be able to make the transition to clean fuels that needs to occur if we let the whole house of cards fall.

 

Bill

 

Gov'ts do not have money. These bail-outs are simply illusion of economic stability. The $700 billion is not even an accurate figure at this point in time. It is now up to $2 trillion. Paulson is accountable to no one b/c of the way the bailout bill was written. The Fed is even refusing to divulge to whom the money has been distributed.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=2+trillion+bailout&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (take your pick for verification)

 

The money is "pretend." It is all debt. Creating more and more debt w/o enforcing reform simply encourages no accountability to financial decision. Just like AIG spending $100s of thousands on executive conferences, the automobile corp execs flying to DC in private jets.......when it is our $$, why change practices.

 

Chapter 11 allows them to re-negotiate their financial obligations. It allows them to make themselves more competitive.

 

Simply handing them $$ does nothing either than shift their poor decisions onto our bank accounts.

[texascamps]

Since the big three are unionized they have a greater overhead then the plants for Toyota and Nissan that are in Alabama and Tennessee, Missouri, etc.

 

Anderson Cooper on CNN (which I never watch but happened to be on late night) had a discussion that said for every GM car, $1600 of the car's price goes to the healthcare of GM workers vs. $200 per car for Honda. There are other examples where the unionized big three are shaken down for things that the foreign manufacturers that make in the US don't have to pay. I'll try to find the link to the footage for a link. This explains a lot. Plus it said that changes on the assembly line or improvements to a car, even, have to be approved by the union before they can be implemented while the Japanese companies just make the change.

 

Perhaps, in this case, the unions are making US cars obsolete....Remember, this same situation happened to the textile workers in the 70's. Unions became so powerful and expensive as well as demanding that textile industry shut down and moved overseas. When was the last time you bought clothing or cloth made in the US? Remeber the commercials "Look for the Union Label", all but forgotten?

 

I'm curious to see what will come out of this. More powerful foreign car makers or the Unions giving up some power to keep their jobs. This may be a cleansing opportunity for the big 3.

[Mama Lynx]

Pretend I am bestowing rep on you, Momof7. Nicely put.

[Blessedfamily]

Gov'ts do not have money. These bail-outs are simply illusion of economic stability. The $700 billion is not even an accurate figure at this point in time. It is now up to $2 trillion. Paulson is accountable to no one b/c of the way the bailout bill was written. The Fed is even refusing to divulge to whom the money has been distributed.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=2+trillion+bailout&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (take your pick for verification)

 

The money is "pretend." It is all debt. Creating more and more debt w/o enforcing reform simply encourages no accountability to financial decision. Just like AIG spending $100s of thousands on executive conferences, the automobile corp execs flying to DC in private jets.......when it is our $$, why change practices.

 

Chapter 11 allows them to re-negotiate their financial obligations. It allows them to make themselves more competitive.

 

Simply handing them $$ does nothing either than shift their poor decisions onto our bank accounts.

 

On a multiple choice test, I'd pick this answer.

[tricia]

:iagree:My dh said he got an email from GMAC today asking him to sign something saying he supports the decision in them getting the loan. Are you kidding me? When and where does all this bailout stop. It certainly hasn't, nor will it ever help the people who need it and are really suffering. When do they get they're bailout. I say stick it in their ears.

[Zelda]

Pretend I am bestowing rep on you, Momof7. Nicely put.

 

On both of you, imaginary rep sparkly dust.

[stripe]

I loved when the auto exec, when asked if he'd go for a $1 annual salary, said, "I'm comfortable where I am" (in other words, NO)....I am sure the auto WORKERS are comfortable being employed, too! Sheesh.

[LisaNY]

Gov'ts do not have money. These bail-outs are simply illusion of economic stability. The $700 billion is not even an accurate figure at this point in time. It is now up to $2 trillion. Paulson is accountable to no one b/c of the way the bailout bill was written. The Fed is even refusing to divulge to whom the money has been distributed.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=2+trillion+bailout&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (take your pick for verification)

 

The money is "pretend." It is all debt. Creating more and more debt w/o enforcing reform simply encourages no accountability to financial decision. Just like AIG spending $100s of thousands on executive conferences, the automobile corp execs flying to DC in private jets.......when it is our $$, why change practices.

 

Chapter 11 allows them to re-negotiate their financial obligations. It allows them to make themselves more competitive.

 

Simply handing them $$ does nothing either than shift their poor decisions onto our bank accounts.

 

Thanks, momof7. You just articulated what has been rattling around in my head, but I've not been able to put into words.

 

And let's face it, given the govt's wonderful track record with handling ANYTHING, I daresay that I really don't see much light at the end of this tunnel.

[Parrothead]

I saw the black helicopters outside just moments ago. It was more of a disturbance in the night sky, but I know it was them. Then I remembered somethings I read about a while back. The Amero. http://www.amerocurrency.com/

 

There really isn't anything wrong with the economy. It is all a ploy to introduce the Amero.

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate on the auto industry. I've got to go find my tinfoil hat.

[Colleen]

Well if we don't mind a decade or more of Worldwide Economic Depression then maybe we could just cock-a-snoot at Detroit.

 

But I'm just less keen on total economic collapse than some of you all.

 

How's that for a point-blank subject line (and one with a grammatical error, too)?;) Do I understand the interconnectedness of our economy? Yep. I do. I have degrees in economics and am not a dim bulb on this particular subject. (I don't think it takes degrees in econ to have a valid opinion, though. Just sayin'.)

 

I hear you, Bill. But...I disagree. I believe you're wrong. But you're just the kind of constituent the Big 3 want to play upon. "Ooooh! Eeeek! If you folks don't support our bad habits, this country's goin' to hell in a handbasket!"

 

No, it's not.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Colleen

[Maria from IN]

I too am beyond frustrated.

 

My great-grandfather was a factory worker at the turn of the last century. He was nearly beaten to death for helping organize a union at his workplace. I guess he figured it was worth the fight to make sure his coworkers had safe working conditions. A brave man, indeed.

 

But now what? It seems to me that the autoworkers have a safe place to work, and (much more than) liveable wages. Great Grandpa was nearly beaten to death to help form a union, and one exists now that is paying its workers $20,000/year more than I'll ever make with a Masters degree (and that's after I go $70,000 in debt just trying to get the thing!).

 

Bail out the auto industry if you must, dear government, but stay there for a while! Reformulate, rebuild, fire, and rehire! Change the way things are done before today's unions get yet another message that they can get away with still more...

 

...or better yet, before another country comes in and buys up the whole thing--then again, would that be so bad?

 

Who knows? I'm not an economist, I'm just a former airbag maker who got carpal tunnel at a factory that paid its uneducated workers in peanuts.

[Spy Car]

 

How's that for a point-blank subject line (and one with a grammatical error, too)?;) Do I understand how interconnectedness of our economy? Yep. I do. I have degrees in economics and am not a dim bulb on this particular subject. (I don't think it takes degrees in econ to have a valid opinion, though. Just sayin'.)

 

I hear you, Bill. But...I disagree. I believe you're wrong. But you're just the kind of constituent the Big 3 want to play upon. "Ooooh! Eeeek! If you folks don't support our bad habits, this country's goin' to hell in a handbasket!"

 

No, it's not.

 

Well I don't think Detroit would consider me one of their "constituents" as I've been a critic of the American auto industry most of my life.

 

And I don't want to feed Detroit's bad habits. It is time for a major revision of the way the auto companies do business. So now is an opportunity to seriously reform this industry, while preventing the kind of economic consequences that would come with a major sector of our economy failing.

 

Turning Detroit around, to my mind, beats the alternative.

 

Bill

[LilyK]

Turning Detroit around, to my mind, beats the alternative

.

 

Unfortunately, it looks to me like the alternative to an economic collapse is an economic collapse.

[Zelda]

 

Turning Detroit around, to my mind, beats the alternative.

 

Bill

 

Can't be done. The writing was on the wall years ago and Detroit dug in its heels and refused to adapt. Having lived in Detroit most of my life I assure you that nothing short of being turned inside out will change the mind set there.

[Spy Car]

Can't be done. The writing was on the wall years ago and Detroit dug in its heels and refused to adapt. Having lived in Detroit most of my life I assure you that nothing short of being turned inside out will change the mind set there.

 

Yea, but now is exactly the time when they can be turned inside out. It needs to happen. It can happen. And it should happen.

 

Losing an entire industry, one that will be vital to our transition to a green economy, would be a devastating and unnecessary loss.

[JWSJ]

In times of recession (especially very serious ones, such as now) you need something to be an engine in the economy. Re-tooling our industry to green-energy has to be that engine.

 

If green-energy is the best engine the US has to alleviate the recession and possible depression then we are in for one huge disappointment.

 

That movement/engine will fail just as it has before.

[Demal]

If there's no bailout, and we let the market take care of GM, here's a scenario I read about:

 

GM files for Chapter 7 bankruptcy

 

GM's Chinese partner, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation, or SAIC, buys much of GM (Buick, Chevy, Cadillac)

 

GM/SAIC starts importing Chinese-made Buicks and Chevys, undercutting Toyota's cost advantages

 

GM/SAIC owns the Volt technology, requiring US firms to lease it if they wanted to use it

[Jennifer3141]

If green-energy is the best engine the US has to alleviate the recession and possible depression then we are in for one huge disappointment.

 

That movement/engine will fail just as it has before.

 

Uh, what?

 

The green movement failed? I'm so glad not to live wherever you do! Wow. That must be horrible.

 

Jen

[8filltheheart]

If there's no bailout, and we let the market take care of GM, here's a scenario I read about:

 

GM files for Chapter 7 bankruptcy

 

GM's Chinese partner, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation, or SAIC, buys much of GM (Buick, Chevy, Cadillac)

 

GM/SAIC starts importing Chinese-made Buicks and Chevys, undercutting Toyota's cost advantages

 

GM/SAIC owns the Volt technology, requiring US firms to lease it if they wanted to use it

 

The serious flaw with this argument is the leap to Chpt 7 bankruptcy.

 

What happened to Chpt 11 bankruptcy?

 

There is a significant difference between the two. The law exists to allow companies to re-organize, re-negotiate, trade their stock, etc.

 

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=chapter+7+vs+chapter+11+bankruptcy&btnG=Google+Search

 

Arguments that present only 2 extremes are ones intend to divert fact into fiction.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Check out the CNN.com story that ran this morning: Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html

[Danestress]

Any mainstream economist would tell you it would cost less to keep the Auto companies afloat than to let them fail.

 

 

 

 

I've heard more than one mainstream economist suggest that bankruptcy court might be the best forum in which to address the underlying issues that have lead to the decline of the industry. I suppose it depends on how you define "fail."

 

If they shut their doors, yes, that would be a devastating loss for the American economy - unthinkable, really.

 

If, on the other hand, they filed for bankruptcy and their debts were reduced and reorganized and they were released from some contracts that are forcing them to under-perform, I am hearing that could actually be a good thing. And I'm hearing it from real live economists on NPR.

[Carrie12345]

:iagree:

 

I keep hearing "The economy can't survive if we go under!" but I can't help but think that Toyota and Honda are already working on a plan for picking up the slack....:D

 

I have not read ahead, so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

 

One of the US companies (Chrysler? Not sure.) has talked about letting people go with HUGE severance packages. As in, $100,000 for employees who have been working less than 10 years.

 

Meanwhile, my step-sister works the night shift at a foreign auto manufacturer with relatively low pay to support her entire family. Because her company isn't as stupid as the US companies, she will still have a job. However, her hours will be cut, bringing in even less money.

 

If she were working for a domestic company, she could have potentially hit the lottery.

 

Not that I think the cuts and enormous severance are *good*. I'm just disgusted with some people's definitions of "fair" and "needed."

[TXMomof4]

 

How's that for a point-blank subject line (and one with a grammatical error, too)?;) Do I understand the interconnectedness of our economy? Yep. I do. I have degrees in economics and am not a dim bulb on this particular subject. (I don't think it takes degrees in econ to have a valid opinion, though. Just sayin'.)

 

I hear you, Bill. But...I disagree. I believe you're wrong. But you're just the kind of constituent the Big 3 want to play upon. "Ooooh! Eeeek! If you folks don't support our bad habits, this country's goin' to hell in a handbasket!"

 

No, it's not.

 

Exactly what she said. (Minus the grammatical error!) :tongue_smilie:

[TXMomof4]

I've heard more than one mainstream economist suggest that bankruptcy court might be the best forum in which to address the underlying issues that have lead to the decline of the industry. I suppose it depends on how you define "fail."

 

If they shut their doors, yes, that would be a devastating loss for the American economy - unthinkable, really.

 

If, on the other hand, they filed for bankruptcy and their debts were reduced and reorganized and they were released from some contracts that are forcing them to under-perform, I am hearing that could actually be a good thing. And I'm hearing it from real live economists on NPR.

 

 

Isn't this what the airlines have been doing...forever? How many times have various airlines had to declare bankruptcy and restructure, all the while continuing to do business?