Have to have a difficult conversation

[LMD]

12 minutes ago, lavender's green said:

I'm sorry. I have some crazies in my family, too.

First of all, good for you for protecting your kids. I know it's really, really hard to always be "the bad guy" for doing this basic maternal thing.

Speaking of which: you are always going to be "the bad guy." You just are. No matter what you do. 

These people live for drama, so I would do things strictly by the books. As in Emily Post books. Only RSVP who will actually attend, brush up your etiquette game. You want to be as blameless as possible in all this. You want outside observers to see you did nothing wrong. And there is nothing wrong with sending regrets for the rest of your family. 

Is your mother the type to throw an ugly scene in front of complete strangers? I had a personality-disordered person (not sure if NPD or not) threatening to ruin my wedding, and my therapist pointed out that for all their bluster, for all the scenes they'll make behind closed doors, they actually really want to come off as "the normal one" in front of others. They want YOU to look crazy, weird, irrational in front of others, and they accomplish that by needling at you when no one is watching. ***I don't know if this strictly applies to NPD or just the thing I was dealing with, but I found it to be true. Just ponder it a bit.

 

 

Thank you, being the bad guy all the time is exhausting.

If I had to make a prediction, mum will make some kind of scene. I think she would try not to because there will be people she wants to look good in front of. But I think strength of emotion plus drugs/alcohol plus backed by her sisters (4 of them, she's made sure I'm the bad guy) will equal some kind of drama.

[alewife]

7 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I would send the card with correct number filled in so that they don’t have to pay expensive food costs for people who won’t be there. 

Then a piece of real stationery with a short note written in your best cursive that says how happy you, Husbandname and Kidnames are for the marrying couple and extending your wishes for them to have a long and happy marriage!

Nothing at all in the note about disappointment, sorry, or kids not coming. Nothing negative in the note. Strict Emily Post. 

I had a similar situation to the OP's a few years ago, and I did exactly what Pen has suggested in her reply:  Nephew was having a rite of passage religious ceremony, which consisted of multiple events for an entire weekend (Fri-Sun).   One of my kids had a conflict during some of the events, so I sent back the rsvp indicating the correct number of us attending along with a short note matter of factly explaining kiddo's absence to a few of the events. (with no mention of being sorry of disappointing anyone)

My sil went ballistic.  Got on the phone with her parents and every extended relative she could find to express how hurt she was that my kid wouldn't be able to attend all of the events.  The drama lasted for weeks, and was made worse when others supported my kid's absence. Four years later, sil is still not speaking to us.

Had I the opportunity for a do-over, I would have sent in the rsvp indicating that all of us would be in attendance and then called the different venues and paid for the plate for my kid that I knew was not going to be able to make it.   Nothing good came out of being honest and upfront.  If anything, being honest made the situation way worse as my sil had weeks to stir up a bunch of unnecessary drama which took away from the enjoyment she should have felt leading up to her son's occasion.   Had my kid simply not shown up for the events when he had a conflict that a weekend, I doubt my sil would have even noticed within the 100s of people there.  And even if she had noticed, she wouldn't have had the opportunity to stew over her disappointment for weeks in advance.

Good luck to the OP.  It is tough knowing which is the best approach to take.

 

[mom@shiloh]

5 hours ago, LMD said:

Thank you for all your thoughts, I really feel buoyed by your support. ❤️

I am considering your posts and I'm trying not to be argumentative. My concern is that saying nothing about the elephant in the room is disingenuous, she won't buy that we just decided not to bring the kids for other reasons. I don't know, does that matter?

I don't think it matters.  I often feel as if I need to give people full explanations, realizing subconsciously that I do it to validate myself because I think that if they hear my explanation they will surely come to the same conclusion that I have.  Ummm, that's just not so. You know that you are making the right choice for your children in this situation and no one else has to validate that.

[SKL]

Here's the thing.  You have to avoid making the wedding, or any part of it, about you.  It is her day 100%.

You don't need to tell her the whole truth about why the kids aren't coming.  IF she asks, give her a plausible but drama-free reason.  And let it go.  I would not discuss it at all until well AFTER the wedding.  Again, she has more than enough to think about right now.  She will probably be relieved and thankful that you are keeping your drama out of it.

[LMD]

44 minutes ago, SKL said:

Here's the thing.  You have to avoid making the wedding, or any part of it, about you.  It is her day 100%.

You don't need to tell her the whole truth about why the kids aren't coming.  IF she asks, give her a plausible but drama-free reason.  And let it go.  I would not discuss it at all until well AFTER the wedding.  Again, she has more than enough to think about right now.  She will probably be relieved and thankful that you are keeping your drama out of it.

Yes you're right, thank you. Okay, deep breath, light and factual, no over explaining, no drama from me.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

The wedding date makes this awkward - it's right near 2 holidays, kid's activities would be off. I wouldn't go without dh, I'm not strong enough on my own.

 

1 hour ago, LMD said:

Thank you, being the bad guy all the time is exhausting.

If I had to make a prediction, mum will make some kind of scene. I think she would try not to because there will be people she wants to look good in front of. But I think strength of emotion plus drugs/alcohol plus backed by her sisters (4 of them, she's made sure I'm the bad guy) will equal some kind of drama.

 

I cannot imagine any way with an NPD situation that you won’t end up being called the bad guy or that you can avoid drama in this sort of situation. 

I think the best you can do is to

1) shield your children

2) behave in an approved and appropriate etiquette way such that a *rational* outsider observing the situation would be seeing that you are behaving properly and doing the right thing(s) in terms of not adding extra expenses for unneeded meals, and so forth 

3) respond to questions or ______ from your sister with further proper etiquette replies, such as,

Sis: “—————“

You: “I wish that the children could be there, but unfortunately, the children cannot come for personal reasons beyond my control.”  

Sis:  “————-“

You: “I’m very sorry, but they won’t be able to come to your wedding. I do wish things were different, but we just can’t bring them.”

Sis: “—————“

You: “I’m sorry.  I’m not going to discuss this anymore. Would you like to talk about something else or should we get off the phone and work on other things we need to do now?”

 

Persistence from your sister may indicate that she is npd too. Or at least that she is seriously lacking in a critical understanding that the protection of children from abuse, whether physical or mental is more important than them attending a wedding.  And you have no obligation to discuss details with her. If she would understand it, she would already have understood.

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, LMD said:

Yes you're right, thank you. Okay, deep breath, light and factual, no over explaining, no drama from me.

 

Yes.

And don’t start into explanations where you yourself are creating drama and making accusations.  

[AmandaVT]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I would send the card with correct number filled in so that they don’t have to pay expensive food costs for people who won’t be there. 

Then a piece of real stationery with a short note written in your best cursive that says how happy you, Husbandname and Kidnames are for the marrying couple and extending your wishes for them to have a long and happy marriage!

Nothing at all in the note about disappointment, sorry, or kids not coming. Nothing negative in the note. Strict Emily Post. 

 

I agree. Keep it simple. DH's family has a few NPD's that I've gotten semi-decent at managing when we must interact. Unless your sister has been and is 1000% "NPD mom is unreasonable towards you and I am on your side," I'd not offer much explanation at all. She may be caught up in the drama with your mom as well. RSVP for you and your husband, let her know you will not be attending the dinner, so she can plan meals accordingly and when she asks about the kids not coming come up with a simple, plausible reason. "It's not going to work with our schedules, but we would love to have you and new spouse for dinner soon." 

With the NPD's and other family members on DH's side, I've learned the more explanation I try to give, the more they'll take it and argue or twist my words until it gets very ugly. 

[SKL]

If she seems to want to talk about "it," change the subject.  Ask about her wedding dress, how her dp is doing, who is going to be the photographer and the dj.  How exciting it all is!  Keep the focus where it should be at this time.

[Pen]

38 minutes ago, SKL said:

If she seems to want to talk about "it," change the subject.  Ask about her wedding dress, how her dp is doing, who is going to be the photographer and the dj.  How exciting it all is!  Keep the focus where it should be at this time.

 

Yes. I agree. 

There are times when I think that I see lots of possible good thoughts given. 

In this situation I think that keeping what you say limited  to proper etiquette response plus keeping the focus of conversation on *her* special day is absolutely the correct thing to do.

Both for reasons that it will give you as much protection in an npd situation as any other response short of completely cutting off all contact. And also for reason that getting into the family muck or talking about it is itself self-involved and creating drama which is frankly imo wrong for you yourself to do.  

Don’t “pi$$ on her parade”—Cast as much sunshine and joy on *her* parade as you can!

 

[prairiewindmomma]

If your sister still thinks that these are one-off aberrations, she's likely the golden child.  Anyone who would support their mother who has put in writing twice that you should divorce your husband to make her happy (unless your dh has egregious behavior--repeated affairs, abuse within the marriage, etc.) is not viewing the world with a clear lens, iykwim.  (My MIL and FIL have told BIL and all within earshot that he should divorce SIL, so you're not the only one living the NPD crazy out there.)  

[almondbutterandjelly]

I think you should not go.  Send a beautiful card and a lovely gift.  Think how relieved you'll feel.  (You know you're going to be cast as a bad guy anyway, so do what is kindest for your mental health.  You can't control what anyone thinks or says.  You can only control you.)  

[LMD]

Thank you everyone, this is really helpful. Filling in the RSVP card today.

Fyi, my husband has never cheated or abused me. He ain't perfect but I think he's a good one. We celebrated 15 years this year. If my boundaries with both husband and mother had been more solid and mature in our early marriage years, perhaps I could have managed all this better. I did the best I could, I was a damaged 20 year old and made a mess.

Dynamics are complicated. I was golden child until I rebelled as a teen, so it transferred to my younger sister (in the same letter was bullet points of everything I'd done wrong since I was 15). I have also rebelled more severely than my sister, so she's never seen the full npd tantrum - and it's difficult to believe if you don't see it with your own eyes. It took 10 years for dh to see it and he was literally speechless. 

Okay, all your advice has helped a lot, that's enough pity party for me. Big girl pants on. No drama. Thanks for talking it out with me! I knew you ladies would be helpful. 

[LMD]

Thank you Stella. I can see it that way now with the clarity of middle age lol. My 20s were just... confusing!

[Pen]

The stress and anxiety over the situation makes a good reminder that you have not yet gotten emotionally healed internally. Even if you have already done a lot of work on that  

Between now and the wedding could make a good time to pursue your own healing. 

[LMD]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

The stress and anxiety over the situation makes a good reminder that you have not yet gotten emotionally healed internally. Even if you have already done a lot of work on that  

Between now and the wedding could make a good time to pursue your own healing. 

Yes that's true. Healing so far has consisted of distance = fog lifting and reading some books. Praying for miracles, talking to people who understand. Also some dear friends helping me to mature within my marriage to a healthier place. 

I wasn't kidding when I said there was a lot of baggage and I don't have enough emotional or time reserves to start pulling that thread iykwim.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

LMD, if you want to poll the thread, I'd predict that the average age of waking up to it all is late 20s to mid 30s. And anyone here age 40 to 50, will tell you that there are fresh waves of pain that drive you almost crazy, as you parent your own children through the ages where your NPD parent was the worst to you. Talk about triggering. You figure it out as a young mom, but it's fresh wounds again, as you become an old mom. 

Do NOT think you should have understood it in your teens or twenties. Nobody does, until later. Even those of us who were literally homeless at 17, still thought maybe we'd done something wrong because of COURSE, Mom was a great mother. She told me so. She defined good for me, until I saw more of the world...

Please be gentle with yourself. 

[LMD]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Puts on old crone hat.

Time has a way of helping unravel things. Seasons and all that. No need to push. At your own pace.

Takes off old crone hat and apologises for unsolicited advice. You've been such a support to me; I just want you to know I'd return it in a heartbeat.

OK, now I'm popping off to drag ds out of bed for science class, so no more unsolicited advice today ?

? consider any advice you want to throw at me completely solicited Stella! Anytime, any topic. Want to advise me on whether to pre salt the water to cook pasta? 

Thank you. I'm kind of leaving it all to the side with a muted hopefulness, and getting on with trying not to repeat toxic patterns with my own kids - including my teen daughter who is so. like. me. And a smart ass like her father ?

[Shoeless]

9 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

LMD, if you want to poll the thread, I'd predict that the average age of waking up to it all is late 20s to mid 30s. And anyone here age 40 to 50, will tell you that there are fresh waves of pain that drive you almost crazy, as you parent your own children through the ages where your NPD parent was the worst to you. Talk about triggering. You figure it out as a young mom, but it's fresh wounds again, as you become an old mom. 

Do NOT think you should have understood it in your teens or twenties. Nobody does, until later. Even those of us who were literally homeless at 17, still thought maybe we'd done something wrong because of COURSE, Mom was a great mother. She told me so. She defined good for me, until I saw more of the world...

Please be gentle with yourself. 

Mid-40s, this is my life in a nutshell.  I am often shocked at the depths of anger and hurt I feel toward my NPD parents. 

@LMDAnd ditto to not understanding all of this when you were so young.  Please forgive yourself for not seeing through the FOG then.  You were so young and you didn't have enough experience.  That's not your fault. 

My NPD parents insisted I bore equal responsibility as them in "making our relationship work", which meant 11 year old me was reading relationship self-help books, trying to figure out why I was always messing things up and hurting my parents.  They never suggested family therapy or individual therapy.  Of course not.  "We have a problem and the problem is you and we're not going to help fix anything. You're on your own.  Don't screw up.  Of course, you screwed up.  Well, I don't know what you expect us to do...". 

*Deep sigh*  @LMD , your sister's wedding is going to be a $hitshow for you, no matter what. It's ok to stay home if that seems best for you.  You can even decide that at the last minute, even though sister has paid the caterer.  You don't owe your sister a pound of flesh for your mother to chew on.     

  

[LMD]

3 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Mid-40s, this is my life in a nutshell.  I am often shocked at the depths of anger and hurt I feel toward my NPD parents. 

@LMDAnd ditto to not understanding all of this when you were so young.  Please forgive yourself for not seeing through the FOG then.  You were so young and you didn't have enough experience.  That's not your fault. 

My NPD parents insisted I bore equal responsibility as them in "making our relationship work", which meant 11 year old me was reading relationship self-help books, trying to figure out why I was always messing things up and hurting my parents.  They never suggested family therapy or individual therapy.  Of course not.  "We have a problem and the problem is you and we're not going to help fix anything. You're on your own.  Don't screw up.  Of course, you screwed up.  Well, I don't know what you expect us to do...". 

*Deep sigh*  @LMD , your sister's wedding is going to be a $hitshow for you, no matter what. It's ok to stay home if that seems best for you.  You can even decide that at the last minute, even though sister has paid the caterer.  You don't owe your sister a pound of flesh for your mother to chew on.     

  

Wow, that is a very vivid and apt description! Thank you!

I'm very sorry for your experience too. That's awful.

[LMD]

So she texted and asked if we're coming. I replied: "I got your invite, gorgeous! Yes we're coming ? sending RSVP card today."

No drama... putting my phone away for a while now. Thanks everyone!

[Pen]

@LMDGreat job!!!  As a rational outside observer, I say, Wonderful reply, imo!!!  Keep up the good self care.  

Now, also,  keep in mind you are only responsible for yourself, not her, and despite your wonderful text, she could do or say anything.  

And

Remember when she gets rsvp card, and possibly flips out—perhaps pulling others into her flip out—that “personal” reasons is fully sufficient as a reason for any one who won’t be going. And it is rude for someone, even a sister, to pry into someone’s personal reasons—so hold your ground. 

The mere distance away and time of the event would be reason enough where children are concerned. Or that you wish to do some things as just you and dh as adults. You don’t need to elaborate, but you can keep in your own mind that normal people could have any number of reasons for leaving the children at home.  And a normal family of sisters, mother, aunts, would not get bent out of shape over it. 

Don’t know if this could help you also: One little technique I sometimes use with npd types is an image of enveloping myself in a protective cloud of light (pink or white usually) which can include a sense of divine protection too if you’ve a mind toward that. 

[Pen]

 

Possibly of help or interest: 

book:

The Human Magnet Syndrome: The Codependent Narcissist Trap  by Ross Rosenberg

and you tube videos by Joan Rosenberg. 

I find her technique of dealing with anxiety tremendously helpful  

 

Rosenberg is so far as I know just same last name and both in psychotherapy, but not relatives. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Pen
Spelling correction

[LucyStoner]

Sounds like a classic rock and hard place situation.  If you send regrets, the drama is you aren’t going to your sister’s wedding.  If you RSVP adults only, the drama is that you aren’t planning to bring the kids.  If you RSVP for everyone but then the kids get “sick” the drama could be that you lied + still you didn’t bring the kids. 

Here’s the thing though.  You and your kids aren’t props in their lives.  You don’t have to engage in their drama o’rama.  If your kids can’t attend due to how things are with your mom, your sister should try and understand that.  If she makes that into a drama, she’s just perpetuating the cycle from your mom.  I’d stay as close as possible to the boundaries that have been working for you and just refuse to engage or apologize on the subject. 

Your sister says “I can’t believe you won’t bring the kids”

your response should stick to “I won’t bring the kids around mom.  That has not changed.  I won’t discuss my reasons further.  Let’s plan to get together with you with the kids (suggest some other time).”

Edited September 21, 2018 by LucyStoner

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Possibly of help or interest: 

book:

The Human Magnet Syndrome: The Codependent Narcissist Trap  by Ross Rosenberg

and you tube videos by Joan Rosenberg. 

I find her technique of dealing with anxiety tremendously helpful  

 

Rosenberg is so far as I know just same last name and both in psychotherapy, but not relatives. 

Thank you! I've downloaded the kindle samples for these to start with.

[Kiara.I]

On 9/20/2018 at 12:19 AM, LMD said:

Thank you for all your thoughts, I really feel buoyed by your support. ❤️

I am considering your posts and I'm trying not to be argumentative. My concern is that saying nothing about the elephant in the room is disingenuous, she won't buy that we just decided not to bring the kids for other reasons. I don't know, does that matter?

 

Not unless she asks you. I agree with the "strict Emily Post" protocol.

Look, I'm assuming she knows your mother had made your life unbelievably difficult? This isn't going to be a surprise.

Either mother makes her life difficult too, and she doesn't have the same boundaries in place yet... Or she's the Golden child and won't understand. Either way, it's not new, it probably won't be unexpected.

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Mid-40s, this is my life in a nutshell.  I am often shocked at the depths of anger and hurt I feel toward my NPD parents. 

@LMDAnd ditto to not understanding all of this when you were so young.  Please forgive yourself for not seeing through the FOG then.  You were so young and you didn't have enough experience.  That's not your fault. 

My NPD parents insisted I bore equal responsibility as them in "making our relationship work", which meant 11 year old me was reading relationship self-help books, trying to figure out why I was always messing things up and hurting my parents.  They never suggested family therapy or individual therapy.  Of course not.  "We have a problem and the problem is you and we're not going to help fix anything. You're on your own.  Don't screw up.  Of course, you screwed up.  Well, I don't know what you expect us to do...".  

  

I married in when I was in my early 20s, and it took me probably a near decade to realize how wrong things were.  Being on the outside, I knew SOMETHING was off almost right away, but I've also always been aware that I'm prone to personality conflicts, myself, lol.  This always felt different, but I couldn't see just how off until experiencing years of doubting myself. ? It definitely took dh much longer.

Also from the outside, the Golden Children are hard to deal with, but the one in our life is very much equally damaged by the NPD.  Actually, it'd be more accurate to say that she's even worse off b/c the NPD crippled her, emotionally and life-skills-wise and fed such serious co-dependency.  So I think it's important to at least try to avoid too much judgment, though that doesn't always mean a "normal" relationship is possible or desired. I don't think they defend NPD behavior out of moral/value agreement; I'm pretty sure they do out of fear and a need to remedy cognitive dissonance.

 

 

[Pen]

Highly recommend:

 

 

 

some more techniques I have used

if npd peeps go into their npd dramas or tantrums, picture them in a way that helps to keep them in persPective  such as with diapers on, or in pebbles and bambam outfits   

if npd peeps dramatize their distress over my appropriate behavior and personally reasonable decision for own children (or etc) or tantrums while on phone, put them on speaker, turn down their volume to barely audible,  mute my side, and turn on an EMDR video and use it to do some processing work for my emotions — whilst they run their npd dysfunctional family scripts     

if they’re not done when video ends move on to making dinner , or doing homeschooling or whatever need to do in my life  ... use the method in video at top or other method to to regain my own equanimity   

 

 

 

 

[Shoeless]

10 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I married in when I was in my early 20s, and it took me probably a near decade to realize how wrong things were.  Being on the outside, I knew SOMETHING was off almost right away, but I've also always been aware that I'm prone to personality conflicts, myself, lol.  This always felt different, but I couldn't see just how off until experiencing years of doubting myself. ? It definitely took dh much longer.

Also from the outside, the Golden Children are hard to deal with, but the one in our life is very much equally damaged by the NPD.  Actually, it'd be more accurate to say that she's even worse off b/c the NPD crippled her, emotionally and life-skills-wise and fed such serious co-dependency.  So I think it's important to at least try to avoid too much judgment, though that doesn't always mean a "normal" relationship is possible or desired. I don't think they defend NPD behavior out of moral/value agreement; I'm pretty sure they do out of fear and a need to remedy cognitive dissonance.

 

 

I am embarrassed to admit that it took me until my 40s to figure it all out. I always knew something was seriously off, but figured the something was me .  It wasn't until my father's wife threatened me and my kid and dad defended his horrible wife did I finally realize "No, this isn't me.  None of this is me."  

And like you say, the Golden Child won't understand at all.  My half-sister is the golden child, and while she was at first understanding of my anger, it soon morphed into "You're being too hard on Dad. You blew things way out of proportion. Why can't you just be there for Dad?  Just be the bigger person."

Yeah...no. 

[LMD]

Thanks Pen, I'll listen to that video while I wash the dishes. ?

Thank you everyone, I feel much more stable now.

And I'll just take one more opportunity to unload, feel free to ignore me! I may delete it later, it is nice to talk and have people get it.

 

My sister has only nearly seen a full tantrum twice. The first time was when she and her partner (now fiance) were house hunting. They were looking in a suburb approx 30mins away from where mother lives (halfway between both sets of parents.) Mum got upset that they weren't including her enough and that her daughters were 'abandoning' her. Sister rang me in tears thinking that mum was having some sort of drug induced psychotic episode. They ended up buying a house that mum chose in the same suburb. A couple of months later our mother met a new boyfriend and moved interstate.

 This was a super mild tantrum. She threatened to take us to court for our children and report us to family services and all sorts of nastiness. That was when she decided to cut me off and I've just held her to it. The only time I've seen her in 5 years is when I was visiting my sister - who was undergoing cancer treatment - and mum waltzed in and asked for a cup of tea! When I said I was leaving, she stormed off and her boyfriend gave my sister a scolding look for not comforting her!

She likes to tell people that dh and his family brainwashed me and stole me away to live with them when I was 15. She leaves out the parts of the story where I was 17 (and graduated), dh's parents were not happy about it at all, but I had nowhere else to go because mum was moving across the city and in with yet another boyfriend. I had actually forgotten the true story when she wrote all this in the letter, dh looked at me like I was crazy and said 'uh, no, that's not what happened...'  Martyrdom and rewriting history are her hobbies.

There's endless stories like this, but I was conditioned to take care of her emotions. The 3rd man she married, the man who was the biggest father influence in my childhood was my step father. He was bipolar and very violent to my mother. I spent many nights comforting my mum, looking after my sister, calling the police, sleeping in shelters... I was 12 when we ran away in the middle of the night one Christmas. Husband #4 was a loser and they lasted a year, he spent all her money and they split up the week leading up to my wedding.  That she feels entitled to an opinion on my marriage, and to cut me off because of it, is laughable.

[Shoeless]

Vent as much as you need, @LMD .  If you were local to me, I'd take you out for coffee and we could have our own Bad Daughters Club meeting. ? 

 

[scholastica]

38 minutes ago, LMD said:

Thanks Pen, I'll listen to that video while I wash the dishes. ?

Thank you everyone, I feel much more stable now.

And I'll just take one more opportunity to unload, feel free to ignore me! I may delete it later, it is nice to talk and have people get it.

 

My sister has only nearly seen a full tantrum twice. The first time was when she and her partner (now fiance) were house hunting. They were looking in a suburb approx 30mins away from where mother lives (halfway between both sets of parents.) Mum got upset that they weren't including her enough and that her daughters were 'abandoning' her. Sister rang me in tears thinking that mum was having some sort of drug induced psychotic episode. They ended up buying a house that mum chose in the same suburb. A couple of months later our mother met a new boyfriend and moved interstate.

 This was a super mild tantrum. She threatened to take us to court for our children and report us to family services and all sorts of nastiness. That was when she decided to cut me off and I've just held her to it. The only time I've seen her in 5 years is when I was visiting my sister - who was undergoing cancer treatment - and mum waltzed in and asked for a cup of tea! When I said I was leaving, she stormed off and her boyfriend gave my sister a scolding look for not comforting her!

She likes to tell people that dh and his family brainwashed me and stole me away to live with them when I was 15. She leaves out the parts of the story where I was 17 (and graduated), dh's parents were not happy about it at all, but I had nowhere else to go because mum was moving across the city and in with yet another boyfriend. I had actually forgotten the true story when she wrote all this in the letter, dh looked at me like I was crazy and said 'uh, no, that's not what happened...'  Martyrdom and rewriting history are her hobbies.

There's endless stories like this, but I was conditioned to take care of her emotions. The 3rd man she married, the man who was the biggest father influence in my childhood was my step father. He was bipolar and very violent to my mother. I spent many nights comforting my mum, looking after my sister, calling the police, sleeping in shelters... I was 12 when we ran away in the middle of the night one Christmas. Husband #4 was a loser and they lasted a year, he spent all her money and they split up the week leading up to my wedding.  That she feels entitled to an opinion on my marriage, and to cut me off because of it, is laughable.

Well, if they did "brainwash" you it was good that they did. To wash someone's brain of polluted thinking is a service. She doesn't deserve you. Your poor sister has to learn the hard way.

[LMD]

9 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Well, if they did "brainwash" you it was good that they did. To wash someone's brain of polluted thinking is a service. She doesn't deserve you. Your poor sister has to learn the hard way.

Yes, my sister and her partner want to have kids soonish, I'm quite worried that all hell will break loose for her...

My in laws are genuinely good people. Love them. Not perfect and we've had our tiffs but they've always treated me like a daughter. Dh has rock solid boundaries with them (with everyone, he's manipulation proof) which has made things easier.

[Pen]

 

I am glad you have good dh and in laws!

One thing helpful sometimes as someone else vents about their dysfunctional peeps, is others w/ similar may be helped to remember something similar they had too. And that can help recovery — if enough perspective (humor, coping techniques) can be utilized not to have it trigger ptsd. 

Some of what you wrote reminded me of a couple few npd or similar peeps in my life—but nowadays brings up more of a rueful smile of remembrance whereas when I was younger I would feel a lot  more distress. 

Living location stuff has come up in my life too. And of course every holiday and special occasion tends to be fraught with dysfunction. 

Btw I’m using peeps to minimize size of these individuals in my mind. They start out as huge adults to us when we are little. Sometimes we magnify them into still seeming much bigger when we are adults. So, I am doing things like thinking of them as little peeps. Adults who still tantrum like toddlers. 

 

Your sister may remain golden child when she has children of her own and her children may become golden grandchildren. That is true for my golden half sister and her golden children. If you are hoping that she will eventually understand more what you are going through, it is possible, but unlikely. 

[LMD]

4 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

What a blessing your dh is manipulation-proof! That makes me curious - what does he think you should do about the wedding situation? Forgive me if you shared that upthread and I missed it. 

Haha, that's a whole 'nother conversation. It's a mixed blessing ?

Dh agrees we should go for the ceremony only, sans kids. He thinks I should just get it over with and tell sister and let the chips fall where they may. His first instinct with my mum is to forgive/move on but when he remembers the threats he knows she isn't safe to loosen boundaries with.

He also hates weddings and would love an excuse not to go. We have a wedding for his side of the family in a similar place (3hr drive one way) before my sister's and he's already griping.

[Shoeless]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

One thing helpful sometimes as someone else vents about their dysfunctional peeps, is others w/ similar may be helped to remember something similar they had too. And that can help recovery — if enough perspective (humor, coping techniques) can be utilized not to have it trigger ptsd. 

1

Very true!  Reading similar stories from other people helps put things in perspective.  I learned, and healed, so much from reading what others wrote. 

 

[sassenach]

On 9/20/2018 at 6:15 PM, LMD said:

So she texted and asked if we're coming. I replied: "I got your invite, gorgeous! Yes we're coming ? sending RSVP card today."

No drama... putting my phone away for a while now. Thanks everyone!

I’m going to call this good news. Her asking means that she recognizes that there was a possibility of you not coming at all. I think this might mean that leaving the kids home won’t be a shock. Did you end up including the note?

[LMD]

On 9/22/2018 at 11:06 PM, sassenach said:

I’m going to call this good news. Her asking means that she recognizes that there was a possibility of you not coming at all. I think this might mean that leaving the kids home won’t be a shock. Did you end up including the note?

 

Sorry, I missed this reply!

I ended up sending a very pretty card saying:

Dear sister and partner, thank you for the beautiful invitation. Dh and I will be honoured to come and witness your wedding ceremony. Regrettably we won't be able to stay for the reception. Much love, LMD & dh.

Simple, upbeat, no drama. I feel sick

 

[mom@shiloh]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

 

Sorry, I missed this reply!

I ended up sending a very pretty card saying:

Dear sister and partner, thank you for the beautiful invitation. Dh and I will be honoured to come and witness your wedding ceremony. Regrettably we won't be able to stay for the reception. Much love, LMD & dh.

Simple, upbeat, no drama. I feel sick

 

Perfect.  Good job.  You did the right thing.

[sassenach]

5 hours ago, LMD said:

 

Sorry, I missed this reply!

I ended up sending a very pretty card saying:

Dear sister and partner, thank you for the beautiful invitation. Dh and I will be honoured to come and witness your wedding ceremony. Regrettably we won't be able to stay for the reception. Much love, LMD & dh.

Simple, upbeat, no drama. I feel sick

 

You did great! 

[Carol in Cal.]

5 hours ago, LMD said:

 

 

Simple, upbeat, no drama. I feel sick

 

After you keep doing this for a while, you won't feel sick anymore.  And a while beyond that you will vaguely remember feeling sick when you were younger, but not exactly what it felt like.  

[LMD]

26 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

After you keep doing this for a while, you won't feel sick anymore.  And a while beyond that you will vaguely remember feeling sick when you were younger, but not exactly what it felt like.  

Promise?! ?

[Pen]

6 hours ago, LMD said:

 

Sorry, I missed this reply!

I ended up sending a very pretty card saying:

Dear sister and partner, thank you for the beautiful invitation. Dh and I will be honoured to come and witness your wedding ceremony. Regrettably we won't be able to stay for the reception. Much love, LMD & dh.

Simple, upbeat, no drama. I feel sick

 

 

You’re doing great!

I agree that with practice the sickness feeling will lessen, maybe go away entirely  

[KungFuPanda]

On 9/19/2018 at 8:36 PM, LMD said:

I'm catatonic with anxiety over this. There's a lot of backstory but the basics:

My dear sister is getting married late this year. 

I have been no contact with our mother for 5 years. There's a whole lot of emotional baggage in there for me, saying no to her is literally, physically painful. She's textbook npd.

I'm dreading the wedding but I will go because I love my sister. I am not going to bring the kids. It's not negotiable. It will cause a scene, as our mother will be drinking/smoking pot, become emotional, fawn over them, cause them distress. Also, the wedding is a 3hr drive away and starts at 5.30pm, not easy timing for my little kids. The older 2 could deal, but my oldest especially is the one my mother will make a scene over. We plan to support my sister with the least amount of likely drama- come for the ceremony and a little bit afterwards, leave before everyone gets real boozed up at the reception.

I have to discuss this with my sister ASAP. She's going to be upset. She will understandably want my kids there. I will, yet again, be the family bad guy causing issues. Hurting my sister is the 2nd last thing I want to do. Putting my children in that environment is the last thing - and I won't do it.

Ugh. Praying folks please pray for me. I'm being a real baby about this, avoiding calls, being petulant cos I'm so anxious...

Should I call, text, write a letter with the RSVP card? How would you word this? 

 

I think being sneaky or manipulative will put you on the same plane as your mother in your sister’s eyes. SHE’LL feel she’s caught between TWO people she can’t trust. Making her pay for extra plates to avoid confrontation is dishonest and unkind. Being sneaky to adjust the situation to your liking doesn’t break any toxic cycles. I’d just RSVP for the number of people who WILL attend. Then the ball is in HER court. If she calls and asks about the number be honest, firm, and detached. It’s OK to prepare index cards for this conversation if you have trouble being clear when you’re upset. Her reaction is HER reaction and doesn’t alter your truth. It’s on her to deal not you to sooth. 

ETA: I think sending a note with the RSVP adds unnecessary drama to the situation. Lying about why the kids won’t be there is unhealthy too. She’s your sister. She must know that your kids do NOT spend time with your mother and that forcing that situation will add unnecessary stress to her big day. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by KungFuPanda

[Angie in VA]

"Least said, soonest mended." 

Also, stand your ground! As others have said, you are a good mother to protect your children. 

[GoodGrief]

Your reply is perfection! Well done!