If you saw this at a scout camp...

[bodiesmom]

Thank you all for your responses, snark and all.  ?

 

 

[Amira]

I’d be glad all of them could wear what they chose.

[SKL]

I would "think" maybe one or more girls in the troop are not living the lifestyle that AHG expects girls to lead.

That said - it could also be a statement of support for someone who is not in AHG.  Not necessarily for the lifestyle, but for the person or people as God's children.

I would also note that I think the AHG statements refer to behavior, not identity.  They don't want any unmarried girls to be engaging in sexual activity, regardless of sexual preference.  But if a girl is simply exploring her identity without acting on it, or supporting someone else who is LGBT, I don't know that there is an express rule related to that.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

4 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

What would you think?

I just returned home from an AHG camp with my daughter. While there I observed the following....

1. An 16 year old girl who is very obviously dressing like a boy. Before you all flame me, I don't have a problem with this in and of itself AT ALL-just giving the facts.

2. This same girl wearing a hat with a rainbow on it (not the My Little Pony kind)

3.  Another 16 year old girl within her troop wearing rainbow tube socks.

4. Another older girl covering the screen print on the camp t-shirt with a bold rainbow in its entirety and wearing it daily at camp.

 

I DO NOT have an issue with ANY of the above in day to day life. 

My question simply is....if you saw this, at a CHRISTIAN camp that has a statement of faith that very CLEARLY presents their stance on the LGBTQ lifestyle, what would you think?

 

 

Didn't you post a thread about camp attire last year?

Rainbows are for everyone, bodiesmom. A lot of Christians believe God made the first one and put it in the sky as a promise that he'd never destroy the earth with a flood again, because of the love he has for the whole world and all the people. ALL the people.

I'm not trying to pretend to be naïve about the symbolism of the rainbow, I'm just saying that anyone who wants to exclude a rainbow from a Christian camp is nuts. Also, there are LGBTQ Christians.

What is the LGBTQ lifestyle? The people I know have different lifestyles because LGBTQ is their identity, not their lifestyle.

[SKL]

And to the point about the rainbow - one of my kids just loves rainbows - draws them on everything - would happily wear them without a thought about their "other meaning."  I'm not sure she even knows the "other meaning" of a rainbow.  The only reason I'd have thought twice was that the girl, aged 16, dressed like a boy, was also wearing the rainbow hat.

[bodiesmom]

Again, you do NOT know my stance on this issue, Tibbie Dunbar.  I'm simply asking. I'm NOT making a judgment call WHATSOEVER. Please do not make this a discussion for or against rainbows, for or against the LGBTQ community. Please avoid trying to "educate" me on what you think I do or do not accept, what I do or do not understand, etc. I am simply asking for your thoughts. 

 

I posted a thread about how to handle a coordinator who was about to shame a girl for wearing what she thought was a too-tight-dress last fall. I was looking for help in how to prevent said coordinator from shaming the girl. 

Now back to the original question...

 

[Bootsie]

If it were at a Christian campu, I would wonder if the theme for the week was "Noah's Ark."

[SKL]

Another comment - I am not sure the girls in AHG know that it has an opinion about LGBT or same-sex marriage.  So far up through the Explorer level, it has never been mentioned in any meeting I have attended.  Maybe they talk about it at the PiPa level, I don't know.  But is it conceivable that a girl might not know AHG cares?

[Lady Marmalade]

I would think that it's a sad state of the world when simply wearing rainbow something causes people to notice and question their....something... Whether that something be faith, integrity, values, sexuality,etc.  It's just a rainbow.  Anyone can  buy/wear rainbow socks/hats/t-shirts/neckties/jewelry.

Girl who dressed like a boy? Once upon a time we called those girls tomboys because they had a preference for boy style clothing and activities like sports.  It didn't mean anything other than that they preferred wearing boy style clothing and liked sports. 

[bodiesmom]

I'm appreciating these responses. Please keep  them coming! Just leave out the snark, and please try not to assume what my "stance" is. 

[Katy]

I've seen a few liberal sources in the last 6 months complaining about the Christian movement to "take back the rainbow." And while I haven't personally seen that movement, at an AHG camp I might think that they were possibly sheltered enough to not know the political ramifications of the rainbow, or that there could be any number of possible interpretations, including that they were just waiting to escape their parents home to be who they felt they really were.  I also think it's delusional to think that sexuality is a choice for most people, even if what they choose to do with their orientations as Christians is a choice. So I'd ignore it.

[almondbutterandjelly]

20 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

What would you think?

I just returned home from an AHG camp with my daughter. While there I observed the following....

1. An 16 year old girl who is very obviously dressing like a boy. Before you all flame me, I don't have a problem with this in and of itself AT ALL-just giving the facts.

2. This same girl wearing a hat with a rainbow on it (not the My Little Pony kind)

3.  Another 16 year old girl within her troop wearing rainbow tube socks.

4. Another older girl covering the screen print on the camp t-shirt with a bold rainbow in its entirety and wearing it daily at camp.

 

I DO NOT have an issue with ANY of the above in day to day life. 

My question simply is....if you saw this, at a CHRISTIAN camp that has a statement of faith that very CLEARLY presents their stance on the LGBTQ lifestyle, what would you think?

 

I would think that 

1.  Girl likes comfortable clothing, and perhaps girl got a short haircut for summer.

2.  Rainbows are very trendy on clothes right now (which is true)

3.  Rainbows are very trendy on clothes right now and rainbow socks would be awesome!

4.  Rainbows are very trendy on clothes right now because they are pretty and colorful, regardless of other meanings that may or may not be associated with them

And yes, maybe they were having a Noah's Ark theme.  Or a Roy G. Biv theme.  They did that at a Christian camp my dd attended a few years ago.

[madteaparty]

Ugh I have a little girl that dresses like a boy. I really should not open these threads. She wouldn’t be at a Christian camp, apparently, so that a random stranger can go on the internet to ask other random strangers what she should think of my kid. Here’s one: don’t think about her at all. She’s thought of and beloved by many. She is dressing the way she does because that’s what she likes, not to “signal” anything or to engage your deep thinking on issues of pieces of clothing. 

[Bootsie]

I am wondering what it would be at camp that would make me think a girl was "obviously dressing like a boy"--if there is a camp t-shirt, that would leave shorts (or these boy's shorts, I know some girls who do that because they find the pockets larger and they want to be able to carry a wallet in their pocket instead of a purse), socks, shoes, and perhaps a hat?   

[bodiesmom]

19 minutes ago, Amira said:

I’d be glad all of them could wear what they chose.

I had to chuckle at this, Amria, because ironically, they can't wear what they choose to wear. They can't wear short shorts, they can't wear spaghetti straps, etc. 

[SKL]

I am giving OP the benefit of the doubt that "very obviously dressing like a boy" at age 16 means wanting to come across as looking like a boy.  In other words not just being a tomboy who finds boy clothes comfy.  Of course I was not there so I don't know.  I was definitely a tomboy with short hair and wore my brothers' hand-me-downs for financial reasons.  I don't think anyone thought I was a cross-dresser, but maybe they did.  (I wasn't.)

[Amira]

3 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

I had to chuckle at this, Amria, because ironically, they can't wear what they choose to wear. They can't wear short shorts, they can't wear spaghetti straps, etc. 

Well, I wondered about that, but at least they aren’t also restricted in the designs on their hats and shirts.

[bodiesmom]

Okay. Assumptions are being made about my intention for starting this thread. I apologize because I kept it vague. 

There were lots of comments that I overheard while at camp and I wanted to get some input from the Hive. I've been lurking here for YEARS so I know the general feel of this board. That said....please continue to just share your thoughts without assuming I'm making a judgment call. Because I.AM.Not. 

[SKL]

Well I hope you are going to tell us the comments you overheard.

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I am giving OP the benefit of the doubt that "very obviously dressing like a boy" at age 16 means wanting to come across as looking like a boy.  In other words not just being a tomboy who finds boy clothes comfy.  Of course I was not there so I don't know.  I was definitely a tomboy with short hair and wore my brothers' hand-me-downs for financial reasons.  I don't think anyone thought I was a cross-dresser, but maybe they did.  (I wasn't.)

Thank you, SKL. I have tomboys in my family. 

You will have to just trust me (or not) that this girl definitely was sending a message. I'm not calling that bad or good. I'm just trying to paint the picture. 

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well I hope you are going to tell us the comments you overheard.

Yeah...no. ? That would get the thread shut down for sure. I just want input outside of the "AHG" community. The feedback I'm getting is exactly what I was hoping for, minus the snark and assumptions. 

[regentrude]

I probably wouldn't think twice about any of these.

[SKL]

Well I am curious because I know that the AHG rules include taking certain actions if a girl is not living the way AHG expects them to.  I have always wondered what they would do if a girl was exploring non-traditional sexual preferences, short of being in a sexual relationship (which is verboten for all unmarried AHG girls).

[hippiemamato3]

I would think "Good for her for being herself regardless of any antiquated rules." No one can make a rule about who you are inside. There are many Christian LGBTQ people, and God loves every single one of them. He doesn't make mistakes. 

[scholastica]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

I would think "Good for her for being herself regardless of any antiquated rules." No one can make a rule about who you are inside. There are many Christian LGBTQ people, and God loves every single one of them. He doesn't make mistakes. 

But, if you join a group with rules, no matter how antiquated, you should follow them or be ready to be asked to leave. If someone joined an LGBTQ+ group and came in wearing something with an anti-LGBTQ+ message, they'd probably be asked to leave. I have no dog in this fight. I think that groups have rules, and if I don't agree, I don't join. It's ok for them to have rules, it's okay for me not to join. Why should she get to flout the rules? She can fight to change them, but should follow them until they are overturned.

[Lady Marmalade]

3 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Thank you, SKL. I have tomboys in my family. 

You will have to just trust me (or not) that this girl definitely was sending a message. I'm not calling that bad or good. I'm just trying to paint the picture. 

I am reminded of my own church camp days many years ago.  There were always those rebels along at camp who didn't *really* want to be there.  There were those who snuck off into the woods for a smoke/drink/hookup or those who pushed the limits of appropriate dress as much as possible.  Those kids never really failed to get their "message" across, but for the most part they endured the week and the life returned to normal for them afterwards.

I hope the girls at your camp managed to find something about their week of camp to enjoy.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of the thread.  Is it so that you can decide what to think for yourself?  Is it so that you can decide whether you should do or say something? 

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well I am curious because I know that the AHG rules include taking certain actions if a girl is not living the way AHG expects them to.  I have always wondered what they would do if a girl was exploring non-traditional sexual preferences, short of being in a sexual relationship (which is verboten for all unmarried AHG girls).

I'm just curious too, SKL. ? I honestly have no idea whether or not any of these girls lives the way AHG expects them to, nor is it any of my business. 

The point is, a message was clearly being sent. CLEARLY. There are nuances that you just can't describe in text that help complete the picture. 

Again, I am NOT making a judgment call. It seems that by me asking a question automatically I'm making judgment calls. I am not. 

Thank you to those who have responded in an objective way.

Please keep them coming...

1 minute ago, Lady Marmalade said:

 

 

[bodiesmom]

2 minutes ago, Lady Marmalade said:

I am reminded of my own church camp days many years ago.  There were always those rebels along at camp who didn't *really* want to be there.  There were those who snuck off into the woods for a smoke/drink/hookup or those who pushed the limits of appropriate dress as much as possible.  Those kids never really failed to get their "message" across, but for the most part they endured the week and the life returned to normal for them afterwards.

I hope the girls at your camp managed to find something about their week of camp to enjoy.

These girls were very happy and quite popular, not that I think it matters. They led most of the campfire skits and even helped teach some of the classes. Again,just painting the picture and trying to clear up any assumptions or questions

[bodiesmom]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of the thread.  Is it so that you can decide what to think for yourself?  Is it so that you can decide whether you should do or say something? 

The purpose of this thread is to gather a wide range of opinions on what I experienced this week, including the overheard discussions and comments. 

No, I don't need a thread to help me to decide what to think for myself. 

Back to the thread...

[bodiesmom]

7 minutes ago, scholastica said:

But, if you join a group with rules, no matter how antiquated, you should follow them or be ready to be asked to leave. If someone joined an LGBTQ+ group and came in wearing something with an anti-LGBTQ+ message, they'd probably be asked to leave. I have no dog in this fight. I think that groups have rules, and if I don't agree, I don't join. It's ok for them to have rules, it's okay for me not to join. Why should she get to flout the rules? She can fight to change them, but should follow them until they are overturned.

This. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Well, I'm with Jean, I am never comfortable with threads that are posted with hidden agendas. I really prefer for people to explain the point without trying to do surveys and fact gathering to support whatever the real agenda is - even if it's a situation in which you are trying to figure out how to do something positive about it...

That said, I have to disagree with those who are so concerned about nobody ever flouting rules that judge and exclude. If nobody ever did that, the Jim Crow laws would still be in place. Somebody had to go sit at the lunch counter, even if a lot of people were hauled out in handcuffs or whatever. Somebody has to be gay at church camp, even if the powers that be decide to send them home or the gossips want to shame them. Those who break rules in an effort to advance civil rights are aware of potential consequences and prepared to pay, if it helps to open doors down the road.

Others prefer to work for change in other ways. Maybe by not going to a church camp that has some pronouncement upon their very existence and welcome, for example. But I don't think it's for other people to decide how people in minority groups choose to fight for equality, as long as they are not breaking the law. (Church camp rules are not laws.)

[happi duck]

I would not give any of it a second thought.  I would have no need to chat about it.

[hippiemamato3]

12 minutes ago, scholastica said:

But, if you join a group with rules, no matter how antiquated, you should follow them or be ready to be asked to leave. If someone joined an LGBTQ+ group and came in wearing something with an anti-LGBTQ+ message, they'd probably be asked to leave. I have no dog in this fight. I think that groups have rules, and if I don't agree, I don't join. It's ok for them to have rules, it's okay for me not to join. Why should she get to flout the rules? She can fight to change them, but should follow them until they are overturned.

I'd probably also assume that it wasn't her idea to be part of this organization honestly, and in that case I'd support her trying to get kicked out. 

[TravelingChris]

 Don't some people wear rainbows because of some Pony show?   IDK the name exactly but I knew it was popular with some teens and adults a few years ago and the one kid who told me about it was dating a girl (but of course, some people are bi or hiding??).  I am involved in a pilgrimage movement that was started in Spain by Catholics and later spread to other religions.  Some of the popular symbols are rainbows and butterflies based on God's promises and changed lives.  Maybe they are gay.,  Maybe they support gays. As to boys clothing-  again, who cares?  I assume you mean someone wearing jeans with chain to wallet type thing and work shirt >?   I notice things but try to treat everyone equally and wouldn't have commented at all except if someone was saying stupid things or insensitive things to the teens.

.

 

[bodiesmom]

3 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Well, I'm with Jean, I am never comfortable with threads that are posted with hidden agendas. I really prefer for people to explain the point without trying to do surveys and fact gathering to support whatever the real agenda is - even if it's a situation in which you are trying to figure out how to do something positive about it...

That said, I have to disagree with those who are so concerned about nobody ever flouting rules that judge and exclude. If nobody ever did that, the Jim Crow laws would still be in place. Somebody had to go sit at the lunch counter, even if a lot of people were hauled out in handcuffs or whatever. Somebody has to be gay at church camp, even if the powers that be decide to send them home or the gossips want to shame them. Those who break rules in an effort to advance civil rights are aware of potential consequences and prepared to pay, if it helps to open doors down the road.

Others prefer to work for change in other ways. Maybe by not going to a church camp that has some pronouncement upon their very existence and welcome, for example. But I don't think it's for other people to decide how people in minority groups choose to fight for equality, as long as they are not breaking the law. (Church camp rules are not laws.)

Tibbie, there honestly is no hidden agenda. just trying to have a discussion. If you aren't comfortable, I understand. 

Your middle paragraph is the type of discussion I was hoping could happen. 

We are all intelligent individuals who are capable of removing the emotion and contributing to a discussion without snark and projecting assumptions onto the OP. 

If you aren't comfortable in continuing...that's fair. 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I'd probably also assume that it wasn't her idea to be part of this organization honestly, and in that case I'd support her trying to get kicked out. 

Interesting point.

IME people put their kids in AHG when they are younger and their sexual identity is not a matter of consideration.  One would hope that if it came out that AHG was clearly not a fit for a teen girl, she'd be allowed to quit.  What I've seen at that age is girls who are committed because they want to earn their higher level awards and stuff - not trying to get kicked out.  But my experience is admittedly narrow.

[bodiesmom]

7 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I'd probably also assume that it wasn't her idea to be part of this organization honestly, and in that case I'd support her trying to get kicked out. 

All the girls involved in this particular situation are very active in their troops. They led most of the camp activities and their sashes (all patriots) were VERY full. This is not a situation of them not wanting to be in AHG. 

[hippiemamato3]

Just now, bodiesmom said:

All the girls involved in this particular situation are very active in their troops. 

In that case, I hope she is allowed to just be herself. That's all anyone really wants. 

[lispy]

I don't think I'd have noticed.  If they were pointed out to me, like, "that girl there is dressed like a boy", I still don't think I'd have "thought" anything.  Sort of like someone pointing out that the car in front of me is blue.  If, however, the pointing out was in a derogatory way, I'd have definitely been giving more thought to the people doing the pointing out that the girls being pointed out (and it wouldn't be a very nice thought;-)

[Laurie]

What exactly did you see?  An actual arc or colorful stripes like the flag?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_symbols

 

[Katy]

20 minutes ago, scholastica said:

But, if you join a group with rules, no matter how antiquated, you should follow them or be ready to be asked to leave. If someone joined an LGBTQ+ group and came in wearing something with an anti-LGBTQ+ message, they'd probably be asked to leave. I have no dog in this fight. I think that groups have rules, and if I don't agree, I don't join. It's ok for them to have rules, it's okay for me not to join. Why should she get to flout the rules? She can fight to change them, but should follow them until they are overturned.

 

Why assume a minor child is the one who chose this group or this camp?  It's much more likely her parents chose it for her, including the idea that she should be at that camp instead of Girl Scouts.

12 minutes ago, OKBud said:

What's AHG? 

 

(lol see)

 

American Heritage Girls.  The scouting group that was created to give Conservative Christians an alternative to Girl Scouts, free of secularism, feminism, or any criticism of Patriotism. And I don't mean just third wave feminism.  I mean their grandmother's feminism.

[ljpisme]

Without knowing them or talking to them, I’d assume they were making some sort of statement, either in support of their own sexual identity or to support others’.  Maybe I’d even wonder if they are making a statement to show support and inspiration to the younger girls at camp.

Either way, I’d applaud them for it!

[bodiesmom]

11 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Why assume a minor child is the one who chose this group or this camp?  It's much more likely her parents chose it for her, including the idea that she should be at that camp instead of Girl Scouts.

 

American Heritage Girls.  The scouting group that was created to give Conservative Christians an alternative to Girl Scouts, free of secularism, feminism, or any criticism of Patriotism. And I don't mean just third wave feminism.  I mean their grandmother's feminism.

These are very outspoken, very comfortable, very happy 16-18 year olds who enjoyed their time there. I would imagine if a girl that age did not want to be at that kind of camp they would not be eagerly, actively involved. 

And yes, AHG is a conservative Christian alternative to Girl Scouts that is indeed "intended" to be free of secularism, feminism, or any criticism of patriotism. Not all who join for that reason, however. But that is besides the point. 

[scholastica]

34 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Well, I'm with Jean, I am never comfortable with threads that are posted with hidden agendas. I really prefer for people to explain the point without trying to do surveys and fact gathering to support whatever the real agenda is - even if it's a situation in which you are trying to figure out how to do something positive about it...

That said, I have to disagree with those who are so concerned about nobody ever flouting rules that judge and exclude. If nobody ever did that, the Jim Crow laws would still be in place. Somebody had to go sit at the lunch counter, even if a lot of people were hauled out in handcuffs or whatever. Somebody has to be gay at church camp, even if the powers that be decide to send them home or the gossips want to shame them. Those who break rules in an effort to advance civil rights are aware of potential consequences and prepared to pay, if it helps to open doors down the road.

Others prefer to work for change in other ways. Maybe by not going to a church camp that has some pronouncement upon their very existence and welcome, for example. But I don't think it's for other people to decide how people in minority groups choose to fight for equality, as long as they are not breaking the law. (Church camp rules are not laws.)

The difference is that this is a private, voluntary group. Those were unjust laws. If I think someone's group has unjust rules, I don't join. I don't join and then flout the rules. 

[bodiesmom]

16 minutes ago, Laurie said:

What exactly did you see?  An actual arc or colorful stripes like the flag?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_symbols

 

I'm very aware of the difference between rainbows, and rainbows. Regardless, I should have been more direct in my OP. These were absolutely NOT the rainbows of Noah's Ark, some cutesy camp theme, whatever. This was...rainbows. And leaders of the camp were referring to her hat as the "pride hat". 

Ladies, I raised my eyebrows because given what AHG "is", and given what the message that was clearly being sent, I thought...hmmm. Interesting. NO judgment, just...huh...these two forms of belief don't jive. 

 

[wathe]

I wouldn't have given it a second thought.I was sincerely confused by the content of the OP' first post at first, took me a few moments to get it.  At any scout camp here no-one would even blink an eye at this. 

What this thread has made clear to me is that scouting in the US is clearly a different thing altogether than Scouting in here in Canada, where scouting is neither a christian organization, nor one that discriminates based on LBGTQ.  Aside from requiring "a basic spritual belief" (which is so loosely defined as to be essentially meaningless:  does not need to be theistic,  belief in a god/gods is not required), Scouts Canada is fully inclusive.

[SKL]

So did the leaders act positive or negative about this assumed pride display?  Were the teens mentioned in OP children of the leaders or influential parents?

People always say Girl Scouts are very different depending on who is leading the troop.  I assume the same is true of AHG.  As long as it doesn't actually break the rules, I really don't care, though whether or not I'd be comfortable with my kids in the troop is another question.

[wathe]

Ah, I see.  AHG is a christian alternative to mainstream scouting.  This whole thread makes much more sense to me now.  I missed that.

OP,  perhaps your thread title might include "AHG" rather than just scouts?

Edited July 25, 2018 by wathe

[skimomma]

I wouldn't think anything of it.  At all.  I probably would not even notice.

Of course, I would never EVER be at such a camp...unless I was an undercover reporter or something.  So, I think you really only want responses from people who agree with the exclusionary practices of AHG.