Never mind.

[SKL]

Never mind, I wasn't asking for opinions on whether or not a dog should live outside.

[Liz CA]

I don't know...kind of sad. I would not have a dog if he couldn't be in the house. Training is so much easier and I could not leave a dog outside in cold or freezing temps. We do not have small dogs either (see avatar) but none of them were ever exclusively outdoor. Dogs are generally looking to be near people. Your girls may initially spend a lot of time with the dog but will he just be sitting outside when the novelty wears off?

There are people who have heated dog houses (no clue what they cost). 

[Frances]

Personally, I think it’s cruel to have a dog completely outdoors, as they are pack animals and want to be with their pack, whether people, other dogs, or livestock. While it might be fine for them to not sleep in the house, always being outside means they will spend the vast majority of their life alone unless with other dogs or livestock. Our current dog was adopted from a rescue that would not even allow dogs to sleep outside, let alone be kept outside all of the time. The thought of a puppy outside by themselves most of the day and all night is  heartbreaking. I would seriously rethink your decision to get a dog, unless your housemate changes their mind about no dogs in the house.

[SKL]

I don't think we would take custody of the puppy until after the winter, so he would be a little older and would be full-grown by the time he had to encounter real weather.

[Melissa in Australia]

I think it crazy that people have their dog inside. They are an animal that has fur. In winter the fur gets thicker. 

 

we have only ever had outside dogs. True we don't get snow but it can be chilly in winter with frosts etc.The dog has a doghouse, but chooses to sleep on a cozy chair on the verandah. It roams over our whole 5 acres and is completely happy.

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't think we would take custody of the puppy until after the winter, so he would be a little older and would be full-grown by the time he had to encounter real weather.

It really has very little to do with the weather. A German Shepherd could likely withstand most outdoor weather with a very primitive shelter or even no shelter. But leaving a dog outside by itself, especially in a fairly small space and virtually all of the time, is a terrible life for it. My grandparents did this with their German Shepherds (they only ever had one at a time), and I could never understand why they even bothered to have a dog. What kind of a life is it to be alone and confined to a kennel or small backyard the majority of the time and only be taken out for walks? Now if you are planning to take it most places with you except into your house and even when things are busy with school, work, and activities, family members will be spending several hours with it each and every day,  I might have a different opinion.

[ondreeuh]

39 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I think it crazy that people have their dog inside. They are an animal that has fur. In winter the fur gets thicker. 

 

we have only ever had outside dogs. True we don't get snow but it can be chilly in winter with frosts etc.The dog has a doghouse, but chooses to sleep on a cozy chair on the verandah. It roams over our whole 5 acres and is completely happy.

It sounds like your dog gets lots of stimulation, even if it's not always from people. That is a totally different situation from a dog stuck in a small suburban backyard.

Different breeds are suited for different situations as well. Huskies do OK as outside dogs, but I don't think German Shepherds do - I believe they are bred to be very family-oriented. Plus they need a lot of exercise and play. A bored GS might just bark and dig all day.

[Pawz4me]

Keeping a dog outside all the time, unless it's a livestock guardian dog with a flock of something to protect, is incredible mental and psychological cruelty. I say that as someone who out of ignorance did it many decades ago but eventually learned. Once I became fluent in reading dog it was incredibly easy to see how miserable almost all outside dogs are. I cant believe your sister would allow one of her puppies to go to an outside only home. I don't know a single good breeder who would agree to that.

Edited to add: I've also never known a situation where an outside dog didn't eventually become an ignored lawn ornament. The best those dogs generally get to hope for is that their people don't forget to feed and water the yard ornament. Few are lucky enough to have people who clean up the poop to keep the area reasonably sanitary. I would also recommend you check your local ordinances. Many urban and suburban municipalities, recognizing the cruelty of leaving dogs outside, have strict rules about not tethering, how large enclosures must be, and types of housing required. 

[Guest]

I know this is a touchy subject for many people, but I can tell you, SKL, about my experience. It was even a German Shepherd. 

My GSD, Sarge, died of cancer two years ago, but had lived for 12 years as NOT an inside dog. We did bring him in to the garage at night and for any severe weather. He also spent a few hours most every day either in DH’s other garage (detached shop garage) or walking with DH; we are on a 10+ acre piece of property. 

DH did not grow up with animals in the house; he grew up on a farm and dogs/cats did not belong in the house. It is part of the reason we chose that breed, because they have the fur and the body type to manage being outdoors. Clearly there are many breeds that cannot be kept predominately outdoors. 

Here are a few of my general observations. Keep in mind that I grew up with pets indoors, opposite of DH. In health terms, our GSD was splendid (until he developed cancer, which most likely had nothing to do with being outside). Keeping the dog outside immediately eliminates lots of “problem behaviors” that lead some (many?) people to give up their dogs. Most problem behaviors are only problems in the indoor context. We also didn’t have the problems of shedding hair, mud/dirt, and sharp toenails causing damage. 

The main thing I see as a disadvantage is that I couldn’t interact with my dog in an incidental way. I had to specifically go pet/play with/walk/train the dog as a separate activity. DH became more attached to Sarge than I, and I believe it was because he would bring him to the shop and would have that incidental contact with the dog daily. I was raising kids and they received the large majority of my attention. 

I will say that this last point is why I think that, if we get another dog, there will be part of the house the dog is allowed to be indoors, so I can form more of a bond with the dog. But I don’t see a future where we would have a dog with full free range inside the house, nor any breed of dog that can’t withstand being outdoors. 

[ktgrok]

Dogs used to do well outdoors only because the PEOPLE were outdoors a huge part of the day. A dog on a working farm, or ranch or as in Quill's situation where her husband worked in an outbuilding during the weekdays where the dog was allowed, etc meant the dog was with people and getting mental stimulation. In many circumstances the dog was also working, doing a job, so again getting interaction and stimulation. Even suburban dogs were allowed to roam up until the not so distant past, often with other dogs, again getting lots of stimulation and interaction with other creatures. 

If you take the people inside and leave the dog outside it is NOT the same situation anymore and a terrible set up for a dog. It's how a lot of dog bites happen, because with nothing to do the dogs become a bit neurotic and start guarding their property. Think of a junk yard dog...that's how it works. 

ESPECIALLY one dog, with no doggy friends. 

Unless your kids/family are outside for a large chunk of the day every day this is, sadly, a terrible idea. And illegal in some places due to the association with dog bites (public health) and barking (noise ordinances). 

A dog is not a hamster. Especially a German Shepherd. It needs exercise, mental stimulation, and LOTS of interaction with people or you have at best a sad dog digging up your yard and at worse a dangerous dog biting your visitors. 

[lavender's green]

I grew up in the north with some pretty harsh winters, and my family and all our relatives kept their dogs outdoors. Technically they should be fine with a decent shelter and plenty of straw, maybe with access to a basement or garage on the most extreme days of winter. But it is pretty sad as the kids grow up and get busy, and the parents have a million other things to do, and the dog gets under-stimulated and neglected. Indoor dogs can be under-stimulated and neglected, too, but at least humans will be home eventually, and hopefully interact with the dog because it's right there, not outside across the yard in icky weather and you have to cook and deal with home work.

Most of my dog-owning relatives, including my parents, no longer keep their dogs outside. I think so many of them (the humans) grew up in the country and/or on farms and had been raised with a strict "animals belong outside" mentality, which IMO is fine if the dog has some degree of freedom, stimulation, and contact with other animals and humans. Most of our pets didn't have that because we mostly didn't have farms anymore.

Be sure to look into your city's laws about shelter size and tethering! A lot of people locally get into big trouble over that.

[Selkie]

In my mind, making a dog live outside is like making a person live outside. Can they adapt enough to survive? Yes, probably. But are they happy and psychologically healthy? Nope. As others have already said, dogs are pack animals, not solitary creatures. They are meant to live among others. Forcing a dog to live alone outside is very cruel and heartbreaking.

[Carrie12345]

Sometimes I'm seen as a meanie because I don't believe in treating animals like humans.  That said, animals have their own needs that are just as important for them as ours are for us.

My kids don't spend much time outside from Novemberish to Aprilish.  (This year, we bled into May!)  The bulk of the time that they DO spend outside in those months is... taking the dog out to do his business.  If he were already outside where he could do that, they wouldn't be out there. I certainly don't want to be out there in the cold/rain/snow.  An outdoor dog would mentally rot at our house.  (Or get eaten by a bear or coyote, but that's a whole other issue.)

My kids ARE outside a lot in the spring and summer. So am I.  But a dog deserves more than just half a life.  

[HomeAgain]

Dogs are pack animals.  If you can't be the pack, don't have the dog.  That includes sharing quarters.  I would not hesitate to call the cops on a house that left a dog outside in a blizzard or Nor'easter or in blistering summer heat.  Solitary isolation is not a healthy living environment for this type of animal.

[Just Kate]

Like your girls, I grew up asking for a dog as a pet. My mom grew up on a farm and firmly believed that animals needed to live outside, so when I was finally able to get a dog, it was an outside dog. I was a typical kid who spent a lot of time outdoors and at first, I played with my dog all the time. But of course, I wanted to ride bikes and hang out in other friends’ yards too, so eventually I stopped spending as much of my free time with my dog. And then, as I got older, I became more involved in outside activities, so I wasn’t even home to spend much time with my dog. Luckily, my dad was the type of guy who spent much of his free time outside, working on the yard or tinkering in the garage. My dog really became his dog. Because of the time that my dad spent with her, she had a really good and long life. I enjoyed her and have great memories of her, butbif her happiness and quality of life had been left up to me as a kid/teen, I would have failed. 

My current family has had two indoor dogs (one just passed at the age of 16) and I have enjoyed them both so much. Even when watching tv or reading a book, I can interact with my dog. Our current dog loves to cuddle and as soon as anyone sits on the couch, she hops up and wants to cuddle. We would miss out on so much with her if she were only an outside dog. 

So, unless you plan to spend A LOT of time outside over the next 10+ years, I don’t think that having an outside-only dog is really fair. 

[itsheresomewhere]

Don’t get the dog.  The dog wants to be with its pack

Many states/towns are now passing laws on how long a dog can be left out in the winter ( some areas as little as 15 minutes without a climate controlled shelter).  What you want to do would be in violation of the laws.  

[Lady Florida.]

I'm going to add my voice to the no outdoor dog crowd. Dogs need to be with their humans and to make them live alone (which is essentially what they do when they live outside) is cruel. Better to not get a dog if they can't be indoors. Weather has nothing to do with it. 

Also, say the dog lives 10 years, which is the general life span of a GSD, give or take a couple of years. Your oldest will be 22 and possibly not living at home anymore. All of your kids will be busy with young adult/teen lives. That dog will be outside aging. An indoor dog growing old will have the comfort of being with its pack and feeling cared for.

[ktgrok]

Perhaps take the money that a shelter would cost and pay for high quality private training for the dog, so it can live inside and be well mannered? You could certainly confine it to one floor of the house, or only certain areas of the house if that compromise would work for the no dogs in the house person. 

[Innisfree]

Agreeing with everyone else. Making a dog live outside, away from its people is really not fair to the dog, unless its pack is really the livestock it guards.

I think you've said you work full time, right? And your kids have various activities. Under that scenario, you'd be stretched to provide enough time for a young dog even if it lived inside. A german shepherd needs a lot of exercise and training. But you might be able to manage it, especially with some doggy day care, if the dog lived inside. Then it could cuddle with kids while they study and sleep. But outside? You're talking about making a highly intelligent, highly social animal live a lonely, boring life. It will develop behavior problems, because its basic needs cannot be met in that scenario. Not a good lesson for your kids, not a good thing to do to a dog.

Also, the question of the dog's lifespan is important. What will happen to the dog when it is, what, six years old and the kids go off to college? I know you'd provide basic care, but dogs need more than that. 

[Spryte]

 I wouldn’t get an outdoor only dog.  

Part of responsible pet care is learning about a pet’s needs, and your girls will probably learn why an outdoor dog is not ideal (for the animal) when they do their research.

Physically - those dog kennels and runs are not adequate to meet a dog’s needs.  Especially a big dog.  And psychologically and socially - the isolation would be bad for a dog.  How often would the dog even have contact with others?  What about on busy days, with activities?  Days you have to eat out because you can’t get home between activities?  Summer camp days?  That dog’s entire world will be waiting on your girls to come home.  And then come to the kennel, deliberately.  Your girls likely won’t get there every day, for enough hours of the day.  Not long term.

Also - I’m guessing that your other person who has a say so may have a cultural history of no dogs in the house, or even be slightly afraid of dogs.  I would really deeply consider whether bringing a dog into that environment, even outside, would be good for anyone.

How about volunteering at a shelter instead?

[Innisfree]

I think this is sufficiently important for you to ask yourself whether getting the kids a dog is worth making other living arrangements.

Adults who have veto power over living arrangements deserve respect. Kids have needs and passionate desires. Animals have needs which deserve respect, too. If the three can't fit together, consider which needs to be shifted. But not at the expense of a vulnerable animal. Which is more important, your need to maintain this living arrangement or your kids' desire for a dog? Either one would be a more valid place to take a stand than getting a dog but leaving it outside.

[Mergath]

Don't get a dog. I grew up in an area where dogs as lawn ornaments were common. (Not at my house, thankfully.) It was cruel. Dogs are social creatures. They aren't happy like that.

Don't you guys travel quite a bit? What would you do with the dog then?

[SKL]

OK I'm sorry I posted this thread and wish I could delete it.

FTR I am fully aware that a GSD needs a lot of stimulation.  I have given this a lot of thought and that is why I refused to have a pet when the kids were younger - because the dog needs people who are committed to give it attention, training, and exercise.  However, that can certainly be done with an outside dog.  It's the attitude of the owners that matters.

Also I have researched our local laws.  Outside dogs are allowed.  Also the whole reason for this thread was to get ideas for humane, safe all-weather shelters, so the comments about calling the cops about a freezing or sweltering dog are a bit over the top.

I won't comment on the recent trend toward treating dogs like people.

[Mergath]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK I'm sorry I posted this thread and wish I could delete it.

FTR I am fully aware that a GSD needs a lot of stimulation.  I have given this a lot of thought and that is why I refused to have a pet when the kids were younger - because the dog needs people who are committed to give it attention, training, and exercise.  However, that can certainly be done with an outside dog.  It's the attitude of the owners that matters.

Also I have researched our local laws.  Outside dogs are allowed.  Also the whole reason for this thread was to get ideas for humane, safe all-weather shelters, so the comments about calling the cops about a freezing or sweltering dog are a bit over the top.

I won't comment on the recent trend toward treating dogs like people.

 

With how busy you guys are, though, even if you played with it every minute you're home and awake, it still wouldn't be enough. And dogs that are understimulated and bored eventually become aggressive and destructive. 

There are many pets that don't have such high socialization requirements. Have you thought about a different kind of pet that your other person might be okay with having in the house?

[Innisfree]

Okay. For what it's worth, I know you mean well, and you already know what I think.

If you really want to provide a good outdoor shelter, make it a heated, air conditioned shed or outbuilding which will be comfortable, safe and suitable for your girls to spend time in, too. Maybe a study space. Then they can really hang out with the dog, regardless of weather. It still won't be as good as being in the house, but far better than a doghouse arrangement.

Editing to add, also, think about a middle-aged rescue dog for whom this situation might be an improvement on the alternatives, rather than a young german shepherd. Good dogs are out there, they just take some effort to find.

And... Editing again... It is not treating a dog like a person. It's treating a dog like a dog. The nature of dogs is to be social and highly focused on interaction with their humans. In the past, when dogs spent more time outside, they were alongside people who worked outside too.

[mommyoffive]

14 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

With how busy you guys are, though, even if you played with it every minute you're home and awake, it still wouldn't be enough. And dogs that are understimulated and bored eventually become aggressive and destructive. 

There are many pets that don't have such high socialization requirements. Have you thought about a different kind of pet that your other person might be okay with having in the house?

 

I think she works from home though, so she would be around a lot. 

Would getting 2 dogs be a better situation if they were kept outside? 

[Selkie]

2 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

 

I think she works from home though, so she would be around a lot. 

If the dog isn't allowed to come in the house at all, it doesn't matter how many hours the owner is home. What matters is how many hours the owner will be outside interacting with the dog. For most people, even people who work at home all day, that would be very little time. 

[mommyoffive]

2 minutes ago, Selkie said:

If the dog isn't allowed to come in the house at all, it doesn't matter how many hours the owner is home. What matters is how many hours the owner will be outside interacting with the dog. For most people, even people who work at home all day, that would be very little time. 

 

Well I was thinking she would have time to play or take it for walks a lot. 

[SKL]

We have 5 people living here who all like dogs and the outdoors.  The dog's home location would be in the area where the adults do yoga / tai chi and the kids play outside.  The goal would be to train the dog to be able to run around the yard when someone is home (depending on what the dog is capable of).  Our yard is not a postage stamp but a fairly interesting plot with woods, water, and other interesting things.  However, for the dog's own protection, I would not let it run around at night or when there is nobody around to deal with the unexpected.

I have thought about the combination shed/kennel/run which could be used for the kids (or adults) to hang out also.  The ones I've seen so far seem pretty expensive.  Right now we have a 10x20 building on our patio with a jacuzzi in it; the building needs replaced, so ideas for including everyone's interests in the replacement are under consideration.

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

If the dog isn't allowed to come in the house at all, it doesn't matter how many hours the owner is home. What matters is how many hours the owner will be outside interacting with the dog. For most people, even people who work at home all day, that would be very little time. 

 

This is a valid point IMHO.

I work from home for a good portion of the day. While I don't constantly pet my dog during this time, she sits in the same room with me. I can talk to her, she hears me mumbling, talking on the phone. Occasionally, I take a break and scratch her behind the ears or the belly. I would be less likely to go outside and do this but I think, more importantly, Lily feels like a part of the family and is well behaved; I think it's in part because she is allowed to be around us. Hearing us is enough for her, she is close by and happy even though there is not constant contact. An outside dog would likely get less of this "I can hang with my people" feeling. 

SKL, I know you did not get the responses you were hoping for but perhaps becoming familiar with the way dogs "think" and what they need to be happy is important since you obviously care about the dog's comfort and well-being. It's perfectly fine to look for a pet that is not so much in need of people care and company but I feel a dog is not that kind of pet.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

We have 5 people living here who all like dogs and the outdoors.  The dog's home location would be in the area where the adults do yoga / tai chi and the kids play outside.  The goal would be to train the dog to be able to run around the yard when someone is home (depending on what the dog is capable of).  Our yard is not a postage stamp but a fairly interesting plot with woods, water, and other interesting things.  However, for the dog's own protection, I would not let it run around at night or when there is nobody around to deal with the unexpected.

I have thought about the combination shed/kennel/run which could be used for the kids (or adults) to hang out also.  The ones I've seen so far seem pretty expensive.  Right now we have a 10x20 building on our patio with a jacuzzi in it; the building needs replaced, so ideas for including everyone's interests in the replacement are under consideration.

I know you are sort of sorry you asked, but my main point in putting up my post was to say: I think it works if the building for the dog is a place people can hang out, too. My dog was in the garage or the shop when not outside. One friend built a “doghouse” for his two GSDs, but this was really like a barn big enough for a pony. And these were outdoorsy people, who farm and have a vineyard, so the dogs were not separated from the people for the most part. The set up was closer to what people have for their horses and I don’t think anyone thinks horses are disadvantaged by being outdoor pets. 

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

We have 5 people living here who all like dogs and the outdoors.  The dog's home location would be in the area where the adults do yoga / tai chi and the kids play outside.  The goal would be to train the dog to be able to run around the yard when someone is home (depending on what the dog is capable of).  Our yard is not a postage stamp but a fairly interesting plot with woods, water, and other interesting things.  However, for the dog's own protection, I would not let it run around at night or when there is nobody around to deal with the unexpected.

I have thought about the combination shed/kennel/run which could be used for the kids (or adults) to hang out also.  The ones I've seen so far seem pretty expensive.  Right now we have a 10x20 building on our patio with a jacuzzi in it; the building needs replaced, so ideas for including everyone's interests in the replacement are under consideration.

 

This set up sounds better than what I got from your initial post. 

Farmtek has a variety of sheds:  https://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1;ft_fabric_buildings;ft_economy_buildings.html

[Liz CA]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

I know you are sort of sorry you asked, but my main point in putting up my post was to say: I think it works if the building for the dog is a place people can hang out, too. My dog was in the garage or the shop when not outside. One friend built a “doghouse” for his two GSDs, but this was really like a barn big enough for a pony. And these were outdoorsy people, who farm and have a vineyard, so the dogs were not separated from the people for the most part. The set up was closer to what people have for their horses and I don’t think anyone thinks horses are disadvantaged by being outdoor pets. 

 

Horses are herd animals (a single horse is usually a lonely and bored horse) and are happy among their own for a good portion of the time but can and do become attached to humans and are very curious and capable of bonding. I think this may all have been true of dogs as well at one time; now we have domesticated the dog and it's needs are different.

[SKL]

15 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

This is a valid point IMHO.

I work from home for a good portion of the day. While I don't constantly pet my dog during this time, she sits in the same room with me. I can talk to her, she hears me mumbling, talking on the phone. Occasionally, I take a break and scratch her behind the ears or the belly. I would be less likely to go outside and do this but I think, more importantly, Lily feels like a part of the family and is well behaved; I think it's in part because she is allowed to be around us. Hearing us is enough for her, she is close by and happy even though there is not constant contact. An outside dog would likely get less of this "I can hang with my people" feeling. 

SKL, I know you did not get the responses you were hoping for but perhaps becoming familiar with the way dogs "think" and what they need to be happy is important since you obviously care about the dog's comfort and well-being. It's perfectly fine to look for a pet that is not so much in need of people care and company but I feel a dog is not that kind of pet.

None of this is new to me.  I am not ignorant about dogs.

I am aware that it is a significant responsibility for all members of the household.  My other household members are aware as well.

How things go for you or other specific people does not predict how things will go at my house.

Please I hope people will stop advising me whether or not to get a dog.  It feels like advising another person whether or not they should have another child if they want one.  You wouldn't do that, would you?  If someone came on and said, "we want a 3rd child and can you help me brainstorm how the bedrooms should be switched around to accommodate" would you say "you have no business having another child since you don't have as much space and time as I consider ideal"?

[Liz CA]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

None of this is new to me.  I am not ignorant about dogs.

I am aware that it is a significant responsibility for all members of the household.  My other household members are aware as well.

How things go for you or other specific people does not predict how things will go at my house.

Please I hope people will stop advising me whether or not to get a dog.  It feels like advising another person whether or not they should have another child if they want one.  You wouldn't do that, would you?  If someone came on and said, "we want a 3rd child and can you help me brainstorm how the bedrooms should be switched around to accommodate" would you say "you have no business having another child since you don't have as much space and time as I consider ideal"?

 

I view the example of children and bedrooms different from assuming responsibility for an animal and meeting its needs. 

I also provided a link for a company who manufacturers and sells a variety of sheds above.

[Selkie]

5 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

Horses are herd animals (a single horse is usually a lonely and bored horse) and are happy among their own for a good portion of the time but can and do become attached to humans and are very curious and capable of bonding. I think this may all have been true of dogs as well at one time; now we have domesticated the dog and it's needs are different.

Yes, I agree. The needs of horses and dogs are very different. Horses' natural inclination is to spend the majority of their time with other horses, grazing and foraging for food. They do not require the constant human companionship that dogs do.

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

We have 5 people living here who all like dogs and the outdoors. 

If you have 5 people who like dogs and only one who doesn't, why does the one person get veto power over the dog being in the house? (You don't have to answer. I am just curious about it because it seems unfair to the dog lovers and the dog.)

[SKL]

Just now, Selkie said:

If you have 5 people who like dogs and only one who doesn't, why does the one person get veto power over the dog being in the house? (You don't have to answer. I am just curious about it because it seems unfair to the dog lovers and the dog.)

The person does love dogs.  She just doesn't want one in the house.