Podcast on #MeToo, Why Now?

[El...]

Have you heard this?  https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510308/hidden-brain?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=hiddenbrain&utm_term=artsculture&utm_content=2016082

 

Wait until you hear the voicemail toward the end of the program.  Was this guy really that clueless?  Did he think he was having a series of flings, that he was irresistibly appealing?  Or was he a true predator, going after only those he employed?  A shark?  Why didn't anyone tell him to **** off?  Or didn't he hear them?  Why didn't anyone palm-strike his bloodied tongue back into his mouth?  

 

I'm a martial artist, and interested in women's empowerment as it relates to self-defense.  The lurch in American (world?) culture on the issue of sexual harassment fascinates me.   

 

BTW, this podcast is not for young kids.  Obviously.

 

ETA:  NOT victim blaming.  Really, really not.  But what needs to change for us to be able to defend ourselves?  What about women's culture made it so they tried to warn each other, but didn't actually STOP him?  

Edited February 11, 2018 by elroisees

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, defend ourselves.  I'm five feet tall and don't weigh all that much.  Like I'm going to slap some 6ft 200 pound plus dude who is a lecherous arsehole.  Also, some people need a job and finding another one could be difficult. 

 

I didn't watch it BTW...just in general saying why some women don't just slap some guy when he acts like a creep.

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Hmmm.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Carol in Cal.

[Sandwalker]

Have you heard this? https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510308/hidden-brain?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=hiddenbrain&utm_term=artsculture&utm_content=2016082

 

Wait until you hear the voicemail toward the end of the program. Was this guy really that clueless? Did he think he was having a series of flings, that he was irresistibly appealing? Or was he a true predator, going after only those he employed? A shark? Why didn't anyone tell him to **** off? Or didn't he hear them? Why didn't anyone palm-strike his bloodied tongue back into his mouth?

 

I'm a martial artist, and interested in women's empowerment as it relates to self-defense. The lurch in American (world?) culture on the issue of sexual harassment fascinates me.

 

BTW, this podcast is not for young kids. Obviously.

 

ETA: NOT victim blaming. Really, really not. But what needs to change for us to be able to defend ourselves? What about women's culture made it so they tried to warn each other, but didn't actually STOP him?

Were you in the working world in the 1980s? I was, and this post feels EXACTLY like victim blaming.

[El...]

Well, defend ourselves.  I'm five feet tall and don't weigh all that much.  Like I'm going to slap some 6ft 200 pound plus dude who is a lecherous arsehole.  Also, some people need a job and finding another one could be difficult. 

 

I didn't watch it BTW...just in general saying why some women don't just slap some guy when he acts like a creep.

Those are valid points. In this case, the guy was able to feign shock that he'd hurt anyone's feelings.  Shocked, he was, totally shocked, after decades and tens of coerced victims. 

[El...]

Were you in the working world in the 1980s? I was, and this post feels EXACTLY like victim blaming.

No, I'm just under 40yo.  

 

Is there a way to talk about what can be changed, what can be done differently, without making those who have endured such crap feel worse?  Certainly they should not receive blame.  

[Sandwalker]

No, I'm just under 40yo.

 

Is there a way to talk about what can be changed, what can be done differently, without making those who have endured such crap feel worse? Certainly they should not receive blame.

Maybe not say stuff like Why didn't she tell him to **** off? And imply Oh, I'm a martial artist who would never take this ****, I would hit him in the mouth.

 

Thank the first wave feminists that females can now easily find martial arts classes that accept them. Don't blame us because NO ONE LISTENED.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Sandwalker

[kroe1]

Many predators do not comprehend their actions as unwanted, or they do not have compassion. It is part of the psychological deficit that allows the predatory behavior. Those biopsychosocial deficits will always exist in some people.

 

I wish we did not try to halt every conversation about the topic by calling out “victim shamingâ€. Yes, trying to analyze a predatory event will almost always seem like we are trying to victim shame. But, the truth is most people are trying to learn and avoid a future event. For example, suppose we study rapes and find that women who wear red pants are 75% more likely to be victims. Can we not let all women know this so that they have the choice to not wear red pants without yelling victim blaming to those women who did wear red pants and get raped in the past? (I have no idea about red pants. I am just making up a scenario.) Furthermore, are we letting the fear of victim blaming halt our ability to objectively study predatory crimes?

 

For example, we know being older than age 55 is a risk for being scammed? What if we refuse to acknowledge that because we are too afraid to insult older age Americans? To me, the original poster has a point irrespective of how it was worded. Why did my generation tolerate more predation than those now? Why was vulnerability accepted more in the past as the norm? Perhaps we will find that by changing the profile of potential victims, we can cut down the number of available targets. And, what if empowerment adds just enough fear factor to predators that the deviant behavior stops or at least slows? We will never know these things without being able to discuss all aspects freely.

[Sandwalker]

 

 

Many predators do not comprehend their actions as unwanted, or they do not have compassion. It is part of the psychological deficit that allows the predatory behavior. Those biopsychosocial deficits will always exist in some people.

 

I wish we did not try to halt every conversation about the topic by calling out “victim shamingâ€. Yes, trying to analyze a predatory event will almost always seem like we are trying to victim shame. But, the truth is most people are trying to learn and avoid a future event. For example, suppose we study rapes and find that women who wear red pants are 75% more likely to be victims. Can we not let all women know this so that they have the choice to not wear red pants without yelling victim blaming to those women who did wear red pants and get raped in the past? (I have no idea about red pants. I am just making up a scenario.) Furthermore, are we letting the fear of victim blaming halt our ability to objectively study predatory crimes?...SNIPPED for brevity

 

...Why did my generation tolerate more predation than those now? Why was vulnerability accepted more in the past as the norm? Perhaps we will find that by changing the profile of potential victims, we can cut down the number of available targets. And, what if empowerment adds just enough fear factor to predators that the deviant behavior stops or at least slows? We will never know these things without being able to discuss all aspects freely.

Do you not remember how workplaces were back then? No female managers, women only typing and getting coffee for men, men with offices with closed doors who called their secretaries in for dictation? And what jobs were available freely to women (with rare exceptions). Teacher nurse secretary homemaker housecleaner. So it's not like we could say Oh I'll just switch jobs or careers.

 

Sorry to sound so angry, but I am. Not only did women have to put up with this behavior back then, even now it's Why Didn't You Do Anything? How about shaming the men who looked the other way?

[Word Nerd]

How does focusing your anger on other women help?

[Catwoman]

Do you not remember how workplaces were back then? No female managers, women only typing and getting coffee for men, men with offices with closed doors who called their secretaries in for dictation? And what jobs were available freely to women (with rare exceptions). Teacher nurse secretary homemaker housecleaner. So it's not like we could say Oh I'll just switch jobs or careers.

Sorry to sound so angry, but I am. Not only did women have to put up with this behavior back then, even now it's Why Didn't You Do Anything? How about shaming the men who looked the other way?

In the 1980s?

 

That wasn’t my experience at all.

 

Your description sounds like an episode of Mad Men.

 

The women I knew (including myself) had graduate degrees and were doctors, lawyers, and executives. We may not have been in the majority, but we certainly existed.

 

 

 

(Edited for typo because my iPad keeps substituting “you’re†for “your.†:glare:)

Edited February 11, 2018 by Catwoman

[HomeAgain]

An amazing thing is to look at media through the ages and how the relationship between men and women is portrayed.  Until recently, most show an extreme lack of equality or assertiveness when it comes to women.  And it isn't because men have changed, but that, yet again, their behavior is at the forefront and this time are starting to be held accountable.  Even so, women are too often told, "he didn't mean it that way."  "He was only trying to be friendly!" Or, my favorite, so very recently, men wonder if hugging a woman is still okay.  The answer is, no, it never was to get in someone's personal space uninvited - but we teach little girls from a young age to ignore their guts and give so-n-so a kiss because they're "family".  And you wonder why women were not empowered to speak up 30 years ago?  Look at the victim blaming 100 years ago when women would use their hatpins as defense.  Laws were created to protect their attackers.  Do you know when women got equal protection in the workplace in this country? 1986 - women can finally say that a hostile or abusive work place is discrimination and sue.  1993- she doesn't have to prove physical or serious psychological harm in order to prosecute for harassment.  1998 - workplaces can be held liable for harassment even when threats aren't carried out.  2000- women are finally able to sue their rapists in court. 2005 - prohibiting punishing those who complain about sex-based discrimination.

 

We are lucky that we are starting to recognize the destructive imbalance and empower women to speak up.   Every inch is hard won.  I wouldn't think blaming those who came before for not having the resources we currently have would be something we would have to defend against.

[Catwoman]

Were you in the working world in the 1980s? I was, and this post feels EXACTLY like victim blaming.

I don’t think Joy intended to blame the victims, although I do understand how you may have interpreted her post that way.

 

One thing we need to remember is that not all women who were working in the 1980s were sexually harassed, and that some of the women who were harassed did defend themselves and did not view themselves as helpless victims. We didn’t all have lecherous bosses or smarmy coworkers. Many of us were respected and treated fairly.

 

Of course it’s important not to blame the many, many women who were sexually harassed for not fighting back because they often had valid reasons for it, but I think it’s also important to point out that while there were certainly some horrible men doing awful things, there were also a lot of great guys who would never have dreamed of treating women poorly. Sometimes I think that fact gets lost in the shuffle because people can be so focused on the negatives that they forget to mention that it wasn’t an absolute given that if you were a woman in the workplace, then you were going to be sexually harassed. It did happen, and it happened way too often (and still does!) but it didn’t always happen, and many women were not victims.

[Word Nerd]

No, I'm just under 40yo.

 

Is there a way to talk about what can be changed, what can be done differently, without making those who have endured such crap feel worse? Certainly they should not receive blame.

I think some would say no—no matter how perfectly you select your words and regardless of your intentions. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid question that can and should be thoughtfully considered.

[El...]

Maybe not say stuff like Why didn't she tell him to **** off? And imply Oh, I'm a martial artist who would never take this ****, I would hit him in the mouth.

 

Thank the first wave feminists that females can now easily find martial arts classes that accept them. Don't blame us because NO ONE LISTENED.

Oooof, ok, I'll recheck my original post, because that implication is not my intent.  I have no idea how I'd handle a situation, and couldn't say what I would do.

 

I'm interested in how women's feeling of power or powerlessness have played out, and what can be done to help us suffer less abuse like this.  

 

One of the women in the podcast asked herself afterward why she hadn't smacked him.  I think, for her, it was one of her options. 

 

What surprised me about the podcast was that he never understood that he was wrong.  At least, he didn't come up against the wrong-ness in a language he understood.  Or he was lying; that may be so.  It wasn't just one woman; there were many.  

 

I'd love to hear your reaction to the podcast, if you have time and inclination to listen to it at some point.  

[Greta]

 Why didn't anyone tell him to **** off?  

 

 

I haven't had time to listen to the podcast (yet, I hope to at some point) so I'm not clear on the particulars of the situation.  But I can tell you that at the times in my life when I was uncomfortable with a man who was clearly pushing boundaries, I was very much afraid that reacting strongly on my part would escalate the situation.  When you're dealing with someone who is stronger than you and who is physically capable of overpowering you, there is a very real possibility that a "**** off!" or a slap across the face will turn an inappropriate situation into an outright dangerous one.  Don't poke the bear, you know?  I'm not talking about situations where I had to actually physically defend myself (I've never been in such a situation, thank God) but situations where I was afraid it might turn into that.  And I knew that if it did turn into that, I could not win.  So I tried to keep it from going that direction by evasion instead of direct confrontation.

 

I didn't (and still don't) have any martial arts training.  Perhaps I would have handled things differently if I had.  Perhaps I wouldn't have.  It really depends on so many factors.

 

It is a delicate and tricky conversation to discuss how women can better protect and defend ourselves without it coming across like this stuff is women's responsibility, or to sound like victim-blaming.  But I think it's a conversation worth having, so I hope that it will continue.

[LMD]

I think that they know exactly what they're doing. They make myriad excuses and the not-evil ones probably believe their own excuses. And when they suffer no consequences, they have that behaviour reinforced.

 

Women often don't fight back because part of our female socialisation is learning - rightly - to fear male violence. We know that our best chance is to be nice in the hope that we can get away.

 

Eta- I did fight back when a guy grabbed me off the street. But I was his equal in size and he was a stranger - not someone with economic or social power over me. It was still difficult to override the be nice instinct.

I have heard many feminists speak about how helpful specific self-defence training can be.

Edited February 11, 2018 by LMD

[maize]

Thanks for sharing that podcast OP.

 

The voicemail...yeah. Wow.

[regentrude]

Do you not remember how workplaces were back then? No female managers, women only typing and getting coffee for men, men with offices with closed doors who called their secretaries in for dictation? And what jobs were available freely to women (with rare exceptions). Teacher nurse secretary homemaker housecleaner. So it's not like we could say Oh I'll just switch jobs or careers.

 

Surely you are not talking about the 1980s?

There were definitely women in other professions, and they were not just "rare exceptions". 

Half of 1985 college graduates were women.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1986/09/women-in-the-work-force/304924/

Edited February 12, 2018 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

The women I knew (including myself) had graduate degrees and were doctors, lawyers, and executives. We may not have been in the majority, but we certainly existed.

 

 

Throughout the 1980s I was an engineer, and I certainly was sexually harassed, and I certainly saw way worse sexual harassment against other woman engineers, and I certainly did see how much downside there was in taking action on it, and how important it was to finesse the situation instead.  

 

I wore suits and heels everyday, and pretended I had no social life, and pretended not to understand sexual innuendos, and never ever ever brought a date to a work function, and never talked about family stuff ever.  It was exhausting.  I was good at it, and it was absolutely necessary, but it was really idiotic.  I could play the frozen goddess chick really, really well, and luckily no one in direct authority over me ever failed to accept that.

 

Another fellow new female engineer in my own department wasn't so lucky.  Her immediate supervisor, a married male engineer twice her age, pursued her HARD.  She was engaged to be married at the time.  He knew her fiance.  He was in charge of her review.  She tried to laugh it off, and to stay friendly but detached.  He followed her around.  If he could manuver to sit next to her at a work party, he would casually leave his hand on her leg or lean on her.  She kept trying to laugh it off.

 

He threatened her.  After months of this, he told her that he accepted the fact that she wouldn't sleep with him after all, but that if she ever turned on him as a friend, he would go after her as an enemy and destroy her career.  About a month later, he decided to destroy her career without her turning on him.  He started to accuse her of things that were not true and of incompetence.  She finally went officially to management to complain.  They called him in.  He claimed that she had been chasing him and made this up to get back at him for not being willing to cheat on his wife with her.  This was entirely and obviously preposterous.

 

But.  Management took the position that they couldn't know who was telling the truth so the two of them had to be separated.  They gave each a lateral move out of our 'plum' department, but made sure that *he* was moved into a position that would be easier to move back into the plum job from, and that *she* was moved into a dead end job.

 

Yes, it was clear to me that the cost of complaining was high, that illogic and surrealism would rule if you did, and that the downside risk of being labelled as one of those female troublemakers who might be willing to either lie or exaggerate or misconstrue innocent behavior would be longlasting and extremely drastic.  So I kept on being the frozen goddess chick, smiling wide, keeping my distance, and basically having a split personality.  For years.  That's what it took so I did it.  That was the 80s.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Carol in Cal.

[regentrude]

As soon as there is a power differential, the advice to hit the creep is pointless. The barrier to hitting one's boss or thesis advisor is rather high, which has nothing to do with women being socialized to be nice and everything to do with having something to lose.

Much of the #metoo movement focuses on sexual harassment in the work place. Typically the male harasser is in a position of power.

Slapping the random dude in the bar and telling him to $&*% off is very different from hitting the man who decides whether you'll have a job tomorrow.

Edited February 12, 2018 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

 

Slapping the random dude in the bar and telling him to $&*% off is very different from hitting the man who decides whether you'll have a job tomorrow.

 

Darn right.

[Catwoman]

Throughout the 1980s I was an engineer, and I certainly was sexually harassed, and I certainly saw way worse sexual harassment against other woman engineers, and I certainly did see how much downside there was in taking action on it, and how important it was to finesse the situation instead.  

 

I wore suits and heels everyday, and pretended I had no social life, and pretended not to understand sexual innuendos, and never ever ever brought a date to a work function, and never talked about family stuff ever.  It was exhausting.  I was good at it, and it was absolutely necessary, but it was really idiotic.  I could play the frozen goddess chick really, really well, and luckily no one in direct authority over me ever failed to accept that.

 

Another fellow new female engineer in my own department wasn't so lucky.  Her immediate supervisor, a married male engineer twice her age, pursued her HARD.  She was engaged to be married at the time.  He knew her fiance.  He was in charge of her review.  She tried to laugh it off, and to stay friendly but detached.  He followed her around.  If he could manuver to sit next to her at a work party, he would casually leave his hand on her leg or lean on her.  She kept trying to laugh it off.

 

He threatened her.  After months of this, he told her that he accepted the fact that she wouldn't sleep with him after all, but that if she ever turned on him as a friend, he would go after her as an enemy and destroy her career.  About a month later, he decided to destroy her career without her turning on him.  He started to accuse her of things that were not true and of incompetence.  She finally went officially to management to complain.  They called him in.  He claimed that she had been chasing him and made this up to get back at him for not being willing to cheat on his wife with her.  This was entirely and obviously preposterous.

 

But.  Management took the position that they couldn't know who was telling the truth so the two of them had to be separated.  They gave each a lateral move out of our 'plum' department, but made sure that *he* was moved into a position that would be easier to move back into the plum job from, and that *she* was moved into a dead end job.

 

Yes, it was clear to me that the cost of complaining was high, that illogic and surrealism would rule if you did, and that the downside risk of being labelled as one of those female troublemakers who might be willing to either lie or exaggerate or misconstrue innocent behavior would be longlasting and extremely drastic.  So I kept on being the frozen goddess chick, smiling wide, keeping my distance, and basically having a split personality.  For years.  That's what it took so I did it.  That was the 80s.

I’m very sorry to hear about the harassment you and other women in your company endured, and I’m not saying it was an uncommon occurrence, but there are many women who did not experience sexual harassment during the 1980s.

[Carol in Cal.]

I’m very sorry to hear about the harassment you and other women in your company endured, and I’m not saying it was an uncommon occurrence, but there are many women who did not experience sexual harassment during the 1980s.

 

So what?

The fact that it was so common and almost expected effected the workplace for everyone.

[Catwoman]

As soon as there is a power differential, the advice to hit the creep is pointless. The barrier to hitting one's boss or thesis advisor is rather high, which has nothing to do with women being socialized to be nice and everything to do with having something to lose.

Much of the #metoo movement focuses on sexual harassment in the work place. Typically the male harasser is in a position of power.

Slapping the random dude in the bar and telling him to $&*% off is very different from hitting the man who decides whether you'll have a job tomorrow.

I’m not sure it’s ever such a great idea to go around slapping people who say things we don’t like.

 

People who get slapped have a tendency to hit back, and I don’t know about you, but I doubt I’d emerge victorious from a fistfight.

[Catwoman]

So what?

The fact that it was so common and almost expected effected the workplace for everyone.

I disagree that sexual harassment was “almost expected†in the 80s. It certainly wasn’t among the women I knew.

 

You seem very angry about this and I understand that you had some bad experiences so your anger at what happened to you and your friend makes sense, but I still don’t think you should generalize about an entire decade when many of us who lived and worked through the exact same decade did not share those same experiences.

[Bluegoat]

As soon as there is a power differential, the advice to hit the creep is pointless. The barrier to hitting one's boss or thesis advisor is rather high, which has nothing to do with women being socialized to be nice and everything to do with having something to lose.

Much of the #metoo movement focuses on sexual harassment in the work place. Typically the male harasser is in a position of power.

Slapping the random dude in the bar and telling him to $&*% off is very different from hitting the man who decides whether you'll have a job tomorrow.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Actually, I think generally it is a mistake to focus on the socialization aspect.  Pretty much everybody is socialized not to hit their boss.  That isn't the problem.

 

But when it means losing your job, or even the possibility, there is a huge deterrent to taking any action.

[Carol in Cal.]

I disagree that sexual harassment was “almost expected†in the 80s. It certainly wasn’t among the women I knew.

 

You seem very angry about this and I understand that you had some bad experiences so your anger at what happened to you and your friend makes sense, but I still don’t think you should generalize about an entire decade when many of us who lived and worked through the exact same decade did not share those same experiences.

I'm not angry at what happened.

That was a long time ago.

 

I'm angry at that experience being denied or belittled by people who were not there.

[PrincessMommy]

Do you not remember how workplaces were back then? No female managers, women only typing and getting coffee for men, men with offices with closed doors who called their secretaries in for dictation? And what jobs were available freely to women (with rare exceptions). Teacher nurse secretary homemaker housecleaner. So it's not like we could say Oh I'll just switch jobs or careers.

 

Sorry to sound so angry, but I am. Not only did women have to put up with this behavior back then, even now it's Why Didn't You Do Anything? How about shaming the men who looked the other way?

 

 

that is not entirely true.  I was working in the 80s until 87 when my youngest way born.  I had 5 different office type jobs beginning when I was 16.  Only one was a male boss... all were managers or administrators.   I never got coffee for anyone.   I worked in the gov't and there were a lot of female mangers/bosses/administrators.  

 

Are you talking about the 60's and early 70s??

[Catwoman]

I'm not angry at what happened.

That was a long time ago.

 

I'm angry at that experience being denied or belittled by people who were not there.

No one is denying or belittling your experience.

 

The only thing I said was that not all women had the same experience.

 

I’m very sorry if I came across as being uncaring, because I truly didn’t intend to minimize what happened to you and your friend. Please believe me when I say that wasn’t my intention at all.

[ktgrok]

Those are valid points. In this case, the guy was able to feign shock that he'd hurt anyone's feelings.  Shocked, he was, totally shocked, after decades and tens of coerced victims. 

 

They are always shocked. 

 

The first asshole that raped me (he was an older married man, I was barely 18) apologized for "getting carried away" but really, it was his wife's fault because she cheated on him. So you know, it was understandable. He didn't really do anything wrong. 

 

The second guy I'm 99% sure drugged me, left me bleeding from multiple orifices, and with bruises on my neck. And drove me home with a smile and said, "we should make this a regular thing!" as if we'd just finished a nice round of mini golf. 

 

They don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. 

[ktgrok]

I’m very sorry to hear about the harassment you and other women in your company endured, and I’m not saying it was an uncommon occurrence, but there are many women who did not experience sexual harassment during the 1980s.

 

No one said every single woman was harassed and every single man was an abuser. The not all men, not all women refrain is not at all helpful. 

[ktgrok]

Women don't speak up, don't fight back, because they know it won't do any good. 

[Catwoman]

No one said every single woman was harassed and every single man was an abuser. The not all men, not all women refrain is not at all helpful.

Carol described her personal experiences and ended her post by stating, “That was the 80s.â€

 

That may have been “the 80s†for some women, but it was not the 80s for all of us.

 

It is not helpful to suggest that we all had the same experiences.

[Carol in Cal.]

Women don't speak up, don't fight back, because they know it won't do any good. 

And it might actually do them harm.

[Carol in Cal.]

Carol described her personal experiences and ended her post by stating, “That was the 80s.â€

 

That may have been “the 80s†for some women, but it was not the 80s for all of us.

 

It is not helpful to suggest that we all had the same experiences.

 

 

I did not suggest this.

 

Here is that paragraph:

"Yes, it was clear to me that the cost of complaining was high, that illogic and surrealism would rule if you did, and that the downside risk of being labelled as one of those female troublemakers who might be willing to either lie or exaggerate or misconstrue innocent behavior would be longlasting and extremely drastic.  So I kept on being the frozen goddess chick, smiling wide, keeping my distance, and basically having a split personality.  For years.  That's what it took so I did it.  That was the 80s."

 

What I stand by is that the first sentence describes how the business world was in the 80s.  It was dangerous to complain about something like harassment for fear of being labelled and losing your career.  That was how it was.  Not everyone got harassed, as I have said several times.  But complaining was dangerous--that was pretty generally true.

[Rosie_0801]

I heard a podcast a while back about a black belted martial artist who was a victim of sexual assault, and a radio segment today about a police woman who was sexually harassed in the workplace. She got a letter saying it was brave of her to speak up. A small comfort, I'm sure, when she was hounded out of her job by the dirty sods she worked with.

 

While it is natural and good to look for solutions, sometimes there aren't any to find.

[Sandwalker]

I’m very sorry to hear about the harassment you and other women in your company endured, and I’m not saying it was an uncommon occurrence, but there are many women who did not experience sexual harassment during the 1980s.

Well of course every single woman in the '80s was not harassed by every single man! But it was not an uncommon occurrence, not particularly illegal or even frowned upon in society. And there were certainly a lot of female college graduates then, but let's not pretend the power differential between men and women in the workforce was equal. And lets not pretend everyone is or was a lawyer, engineer, doctor. What kind of privilege is that kind of talk coming from? Women that were harassed then and didn't speak up in that atmosphere do not deserve shaming now.

 

Women wore those ridiculous shoulder pads, big hair, and ties in the 80s for a reason, unconscious though it may have been. Like in nature, make yourself look bigger to deter predators.

[Sandwalker]

that is not entirely true. I was working in the 80s until 87 when my youngest way born. I had 5 different office type jobs beginning when I was 16. Only one was a male boss... all were managers or administrators. I never got coffee for anyone. I worked in the gov't and there were a lot of female mangers/bosses/administrators.

 

Are you talking about the 60's and early 70s??

I'm glad you had a good experience.

[kroe1]

Carol in Cal nailed it with her “frozen goddess chick†analogy. That did seem to be the way to stay safe in the company I worked for. Good looking, young, large breasts, and the least bit flirtatious was the sure fire way to get harassed. In addition, one had to be lucky enough to work for a department where the leaders were not harassers. Harassers hired harassers so one department would be a snake’s den while another one upstairs would have none. The problem with stopping it from a management standpoint was the corporate culture to protect the company at all costs. This, in addition to the victim retaining the burden of proof, made harrassment almost impossible to fight. Once one threw around accusations without proof, she was assured to be jobless shortly.

 

I work for an ER for the past 20 years so I am no longer seeing the corporate side of life. I wonder if the frozen goddess chick still works today. By the way, working in an ER is a whole new level of harassment, just not in the way we are discussing here.

[PrincessMommy]

I'm glad you had a good experience.

 

I did not say that.  What I was replying to was her implication that in the 80s there were only male bosses and women were secretaries and had to get coffee, etc.  That was not my experience. 

[Catwoman]

I did not say that. What I was replying to was her implication that in the 80s there were only male bosses and women were secretaries and had to get coffee, etc. That was not my experience.

It wasn’t my experience, either, but hey, what do I know? I wore shoulder pads because they were fashionable, not because I wanted to “deter predators.†;) The women I knew loved shoulder pads because they were great for minimizing a big butt and for making your waist look tinier! And if Donna Mills, Linda Evans, and Joan Collins were wearing them and they were in every fashion magazine, they were good enough for us, too. :)

 

Also, could you even buy women’s clothing without shoulder pads in the 80s? Even t-shirts had shoulder pads sewn into them! :laugh:

 

 

 

(Edited for my inevitable typos!)

Edited February 12, 2018 by Catwoman

[momacacia]

Those are valid points. In this case, the guy was able to feign shock that he'd hurt anyone's feelings. Shocked, he was, totally shocked, after decades and tens of coerced victims.

He probably truly was totally shocked, because he's a total narcissist bordering on sociopath...he's convinced he's fabulous and he's mentally sick, so.yeah, he's convinced what he does is wonderful and wouldn't everyone love any interaction they have with him?

[Scarlett]

I got my first office job in 1983. No harassment. I got a job in 1988 that I loved and stayed there until ds was born. About 12 years. One of the owners of the company....who bought in after I started...walked into my department and zeroed in on me immediately. My time working for him was interesting. We all quickly discovered he had a long history of womanizing. He behaved very inappropriately toward me constantly. I ignored a lot of it and sometimes, especially later after we had known each other for years I confronted him in various ways. He never one time threatened me either directly or indirectly. I was view by some as his pet and so naturally some assumed I was sleeping with him. Those who really knew me though knew I wasn't.

 

My boss, a woman, knew how he treated me. I mean it was common knowledge. Honestly none of us even batted an eye at the whole thing. I wonder why? If my daughter was treated that way by the owner of the company I would strongly encourage her to find another job.

 

It was not a healthy environment at all.

[Sandwalker]

I did not say that. What I was replying to was her implication that in the 80s there were only male bosses and women were secretaries and had to get coffee, etc. That was not my experience.

I'm glad that wasn't true in your government and other secretarial positions.

[Carol in Cal.]

I did not say that.  What I was replying to was her implication that in the 80s there were only male bosses and women were secretaries and had to get coffee, etc.  That was not my experience. 

It wasn't mine, either, but I did see that it was a widespread assumption.

 

Among woman professionals in the early 80s that I hung around with, it was a truism that if you didn't hide the fact that you could type, it would be assumed that at any engineering meeting you were going to be the one who ended up taking the minutes, and that that would hurt you professionally.

 

Funny story--when I was a coop engineering student at a big computer firm in the late 70s, the secretaries had been reorganized into a single department rather than reporting individually to the men they supported.  (This was widely viewed as an attempt to get more women into management, since it created a bunch of woman secretary managers.)  It was hard to have department meetings of this department, because that meant eliminating phone coverage for the engineering managers for an hour or two per month, which was considered unacceptable even at lunch time.  

 

So someone asked me whether I would cover the phones for them for one of these meetings.  Even though I was trying not to be seen as a secretary, I said yes, because that's what you do in your first job, you say yes.  Pretty much.  BUT.  There was another coop engineering student in the area, a male.  I outranked him in years of college, job responsibilities, and longevity at the company.  So it was obvious that I was being asked because I was female.  OK, but fine, you don't want to say no and be a prima donna in this circumstance.  When they asked me again a month later, I went to my boss.  I said, "You know, I don't mind doing this, but I think that I should alternate with Jeff."  He LAUGHED at the idea of Jeff answering phones.  But then he went to the requester and said that he would not allow me to do so either.  

 

It was funny.

[Word Nerd]

I slept on it and I'm wondering if millennials are what makes the difference? They are more likely to blow the lid off through social media. Social media is itself a difference. It is a useful tool for making many voices be heard. Hashtag justice has created change in some ways. Why not in the realm of sexual harassment and assault? Plus it has a social shaming aspect to it that encourages more women to come forward because they feel at the very least they've been heard and others have been warned.

 

I think Internet mob justice is a negative trend, not something I would want to encourage, so I have a strong negative reaction to using "hashtag justice" for change. I do think it's important for people to be able to share their stories, though, and I appreciate the actresses and others who have released stories/statements.

[J-rap]

I slept on it and I'm wondering if millennials are what makes the difference? They are more likely to blow the lid off through social media. Social media is itself a difference. It is a useful tool for making many voices be heard. Hashtag justice has created change in some ways. Why not in the realm of sexual harassment and assault? Plus it has a social shaming aspect to it that encourages more women to come forward because they feel at the very least they've been heard and others have been warned.

Yes, I think you have something there.  I think social media brings out courage in people to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do.  Some of it is not good.  Like people who have really skewed (bad) ideas and then see that others do too (via social media) so are validated and continue with it and vocalize it.  But it also gives people courage in a good way, to do things that they otherwise would not have done before.

[Garga]

An amazing thing is to look at media through the ages and how the relationship between men and women is portrayed. Until recently, most show an extreme lack of equality or assertiveness when it comes to women. And it isn't because men have changed, but that, yet again, their behavior is at the forefront and this time are starting to be held accountable. Even so, women are too often told, "he didn't mean it that way." "He was only trying to be friendly!" Or, my favorite, so very recently, men wonder if hugging a woman is still okay. The answer is, no, it never was to get in someone's personal space uninvited - but we teach little girls from a young age to ignore their guts and give so-n-so a kiss because they're "family". And you wonder why women were not empowered to speak up 30 years ago? Look at the victim blaming 100 years ago when women would use their hatpins as defense. Laws were created to protect their attackers. Do you know when women got equal protection in the workplace in this country? 1986 - women can finally say that a hostile or abusive work place is discrimination and sue. 1993- she doesn't have to prove physical or serious psychological harm in order to prosecute for harassment. 1998 - workplaces can be held liable for harassment even when threats aren't carried out. 2000- women are finally able to sue their rapists in court. 2005 - prohibiting punishing those who complain about sex-based discrimination.

 

We are lucky that we are starting to recognize the destructive imbalance and empower women to speak up. Every inch is hard won. I wouldn't think blaming those who came before for not having the resources we currently have would be something we would have to defend against.

Did you get those dates in one place? I’d love to have a link to them to show people. I can google them one by one, but if you already know where they are, can you share it? Thanks!

 

Carol in Cal nailed it with her “frozen goddess chick†analogy. That did seem to be the way to stay safe in the company I worked for. Good looking, young, large breasts, and the least bit flirtatious was the sure fire way to get harassed. In addition, one had to be lucky enough to work for a department where the leaders were not harassers. Harassers hired harassers so one department would be a snake’s den while another one upstairs would have none. The problem with stopping it from a management standpoint was the corporate culture to protect the company at all costs. This, in addition to the victim retaining the burden of proof, made harrassment almost impossible to fight. Once one threw around accusations without proof, she was assured to be jobless shortly.

I work for an ER for the past 20 years so I am no longer seeing the corporate side of life. I wonder if the frozen goddess chick still works today. By the way, working in an ER is a whole new level of harassment, just not in the way we are discussing here.

I’ve always played the don’t-get-the-innuendo frozen chick role around men, too. Edited February 12, 2018 by Garga

[J-rap]

I know this is kind of on a tangent, but thinking about office sexual harassment in my generation...  I had my first office job in the late 70's as both a part-time legal secretary and underling reporter while going to college. I had some weird experiences in both my office settings and also with my college professors.  It never occurred to me to complain.    We (women) just had the attitude of "Stay away from him or who knows what might happen."  Can you imagine?  Even in college when my professor cornered me in his office, it didn't occur to me to complain.  I just stayed away from him after that.

 

In the 80's, it felt like it was changing.  I worked with academics in a political atmosphere, and there was utmost respect among men and women.  I don't know if it was the times or that particular environment, but it all felt very different to me then.  

 

But I can definitely see that for some women in some work environments, they continued to feel absolutely powerless.  And, it didn't even occur to them that they could and should have power.  I have a good friend who was a professional performer in the arts, and she finally quit (about 10 years ago) after years and years of hoping the sexual harassment would get better as she moved up the ladder to the more professional levels.  It didn't stop though, and who could she even complain to?  It was the head of the company, and nearly every company she joined (in her field).  She really felt that her only choice was to give in or quit.

 

So if the head of the company is either in on it or turning a blind eye toward it, there really is no one to complain to.  Until social media.  Social media gives women something/someone to complain to.

 

It strikes me, now, how absolutely powerless so many women have felt.