Your experiences being vegetarian

[MamaBearTeacher]

If you became vegetarian at any time in your life I was wondering how it made you feel?  How did it affect your health? energy levels? immune system?  Did you stick with it?  If not, why not?  Is being vegetarian a lot different than just eating a lot less meat?  

 

Is it possible to be vegetarian and stay healthy without eating beans or a lot of nuts and eating a lot of these, eggs and rice instead?

 

Does becoming vegetarian almost always cause weight loss?

[OrganicJen]

It definitely doesn't always cause weight loss, that depends on a lot of factors. I found my health declined when I was vegetarian for a time but then when I eventually changed to a whole foods way of eating I've been the healthiest I've ever been. I eat real, whole foods and focus on variety and moderation over eliminating any specific food group. Since starting that I've noticed dramatic improvement in health, how I feel, energy, skin, hair, everything. My favorite tool for this is my grain mill because using only freshly milled truly whole grains has been fantastic. Any meats we eat are pasture raised and dairy comes from pasture raised animals. I have to receive a lot of journals for my job and I've seen so many articles on the dramatic difference in nutrients and fatty acids in pasture raised meat and dairy vs corn fed, and since adopting this whole foods way of eating I just feel so good all the time I'm sticking with it forever.

[Annie G]

Eating vegetarian doesn't always mean weight loss.  A dear friend of ours is a lifelong vegetarian and he's super overweight. He's a carb lover so french fries, cheese sauce, rice, bread....lots of added butter on potatoes and rice...starchy fruits like bananas instead of berries...pancakes with lots of syrup...

[OrganicJen]

Eating vegetarian doesn't always mean weight loss. A dear friend of ours is a lifelong vegetarian and he's super overweight. He's a carb lover so french fries, cheese sauce, rice, bread....lots of added butter on potatoes and rice...starchy fruits like bananas instead of berries...pancakes with lots of syrup...

Lol...I think I gained weight just reading that list! ;)

[hornblower]

I was mostly vegetarian (with brief omni backsliding) for decades before becoming vegan. 

It made me feel ethically aligned. Healthwise, there are junk food veg*ns and healthy eating veg*ns.

I think substituting meat with cheese & eggs will not lead to many health benefits. Yes, you do reduce your consumption of a carcinogen, but there's still all the animal fat and cholesterol. 

I don't think a vegetarian diet is magic for health. But it is always the more ethical choice. 

A healthy vegan diet though has noticeable results on coronary health markers within weeks of implementation. 

Fwiw, there are lots of plant based eating challenges around this time of year, including Veganuary so it's a good time to try it out & see. https://veganuary.com/

 

[Annie G]

Lol...I think I gained weight just reading that list! ;)

 

Going out to eat with him and his wife is a real trip. She's a super healthy vegetarian. We went out for Chinese - his wife chose the place- and he ordered mozzarella sticks,  a double order of french fries, and rice.  I nearly lapsed into a carb coma just watching. 

[catz]

I was chronically anemic and craved carbs when I was vegetarian. I can’t eat a ton of legumes so I figured out it just didn’t work for my body.

[OrganicJen]

I was chronically anemic and craved carbs when I was vegetarian. I can’t eat a ton of legumes so I figured out it just didn’t work for my body.

It's amazing how much your body can tell you about what you should eat. When I started eating mainly whole foods and putting a lot of focus on variety of food with tons of fruits and veggies, all the unhealthy cravings I used to have vanished. It was like my body said, okay my nutritional needs are met and I'm happy now.

[OrganicJen]

Going out to eat with him and his wife is a real trip. She's a super healthy vegetarian. We went out for Chinese - his wife chose the place- and he ordered mozzarella sticks, a double order of french fries, and rice. I nearly lapsed into a carb coma just watching.

It sounds like a jack sprat marriage. It's funny how couples can be married and eat so differently from each other.

[Katy]

There are plenty of fattening vegetarian foods. 

 

Don't be the sort of vegetarian who doesn't eat greens and beans and vegetables, you'll start with bruising and vitamin deficiencies and end up binging on sugar.

 

Get some vegetarian cook books and experiment with new flavors, until you have at least 10 solid easy dinner recipes that you love, and then keep trying a new dish at least once or twice a week.

 

I started in high school, I felt amazing though I ate too much wheat and bread and sugar and corn syrup and definitely gained weight. Part of that was poor planning on my part.  Part of it was that my friends went out to cheap restaurants that lacked vegetarian options at the time, so I'd choose a side salad, soda and a large fry for dinner.

 

I quit because I developed intense cravings for shellfish - I would have strangled someone for some steamed crab or shrimp or lobster, and then a friend of mine got a waitressing job at a restaurant that started a steamed seafood buffet once a week and I just quit.  Retrospectively I was not eating enough iodine, copper, zinc, B12, or Omega 3's, but I didn't think about that at the time.  I did have amazingly low cholesterol levels for someone who did eat eggs (3 a day), butter (slathered over every vegetable), and who was 30 pounds overweight. I was always anemic.  The next day she took me to this little Mexican restaurant she knew where you had to speak spanish to order, and got shrimp and beef fajitas with guac and it was the best thing I'd ever eaten.

 

Since then I developed a wheat allergy and one of our kids can't eat dairy so I feel like adding another restriction would just be too much at this time. I feel best when I eat plant based and very low fat.  DH needs meat, I don't.   I'm not religious about it not only because of the restriction thing, but because I honestly think eating a little meat in tiny quantities, as seasoning, is healhiest.  The doctor from NutritionFacts pushes a vegan diet but also gave a speech once about how vegans don't actually live longer than meat eaters, they just die from neurological things rather than from heart attacks or strokes or cancer.   I think this is because your brain needs a little bit of saturated fat to stay healthy, but I don't have any evidence of that, it's just my theory.

 

I think if you choose to do the diet, commit fully for six weeks or so, without junk food.  Give your body time to adjust and develop new cravings.  DO NOT eat only carbs unless they are in the form of sweet potatoes and squash. And use cronometer.com's free service to track what you're eating and make sure you're still getting the nutrients you need.

 

ETA:  I was probably not actually 30 pounds overweight, as much as 30 pounds over my ideal weight.  I went from a size 4/6 to a 12 pretty quickly.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Katy

[cera2]

I think it depends on the type of vegetarian you are. 

 

There are vegetarians who simply don't eat meat.  Many of these rely on meat substitutes and carb heavy foods so they aren't usually particularly healthy.

 

Then there are the vegetarians who have opted for a plant based diet and choose mainly fruits, veggie sand whole grains.  I have found many of these people to be healthier than normal because they are looking at food/diet in an entirely different way, rather than just cutting out meat (if that makes sense).

 

 

[catz]

It's amazing how much your body can tell you about what you should eat. When I started eating mainly whole foods and putting a lot of focus on variety of food with tons of fruits and veggies, all the unhealthy cravings I used to have vanished. It was like my body said, okay my nutritional needs are met and I'm happy now.

I definitely need to stick to Whole Foods too! It makes a huge difference in how I feel.

Edited December 21, 2017 by WoolySocks

[Pawz4me]

Left to my own devices I'm a natural vegetarian. For many years when I was a single young adult and newly married I was one. Unfortunately, it contributed to severe anemia and I had to start eating meat again. After I had a hysterectomy (years ago) I wanted to return to my vegetarian ways, but by then I had a DH and two boys to feed, none of whom had/have any interest in giving up their meat so sometimes I do eat it.

 

Other than the anemia I was healthy. But that's sort of an oxymoron because the anemia kept me so fatigued and short of breath there were many days I couldn't do anything at all. I don't think a vegetarian diet would have that affect on me now, though.

 

It certainly doesn't naturally lead to weight loss. Lots of very high calorie foods are vegetarian.

[Guest]

In my observation, going vegetarian does not automatically lead to weight loss or greater health. There are what my DD calls “Pizza-Pasta Vegetarians.†You can eat quite a lot of junk food that does not have meat in it.

 

I was vegetarian for a short while, but I, IMO, was not good about meeting protein needs in other ways. I don’t love beans overly much even now, and at that time, I hardly ate beans at all. The one strong benefit, health-wise, was that I never ate fast food. There was no such thing for me as swinging by McDs or Taco Bell. Even now, when I do swing by thhose places just because I am hungry and need some food quickly, I largely regret it and remember fondly when that wasn’t even an option in my mind.

 

I do spend a lot of time thinking about the ethics of using animals for food. In some aspects of personal ethics, it would be easy for me to become vegan. But, the main disadvantage of being vegetarian (let alone vegan), and the large reason why I quit was social eating. Being veg makes social eating more complicated, especially if ethics are the main reason. You can sort of squeeze by notice if you are vegetarian in many cases, but you can’t do that if you are vegan.

[DawnM]

I can even go deeper.....I was RAW Vegan for 6 months.  I felt fantastic.  Tons of energy.  I felt like my skin and hair were better.  I drank lots of lemon water and ginger lemon water.  I have a nice dehydrator and I used Alyssa Cohan's recipe book and got really into it.

 

I did not lose weight.  Too many nuts, seeds, and my body just does not let go of weight.  But I felt good.

 

The problem for me was that it was hard to live in society and be raw vegan.  You can't go out with friends or out at all much.  I could only pay $10 for a bowl of lettuce.  It was hard.

 

I then went just vegan, but not raw.  That helped and I added in grains.  

 

I finally went back to regular eating with meat again.  

 

If you want to lose weight and be vegetarian, I recommend getting this book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/McDougall-Program-Maximum-Weight-Loss/dp/0452273803/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1513858419&sr=8-3&keywords=dr.+john+mcdougall+books

 

I didn't follow it well, but I have friends who did and they lost weight.

[MamaBearTeacher]

I was thinking about vegetarianism casually for various reasons. We already eat all whole foods. My son reacts very badly behaviorally to beans and nut butters. Our whole family is thin though my sons eat a ton. I don't want them to lose weight. I make a lot of vegetrian meals already that consist of lots of veggies, lots of cheese, cream, eggs, potatoes, rice, some quinoa, some bread. My son can't eat too much carbs or any fruit or sugar or he won't sleep. Right now we eat meat almost everyday once a day and the boys have sausages some days for breakfast. Anyways, I'm just thinking about this but I probably won't do it.

[wintermom]

It certainly annoyed a lot of people when I went to large gatherings, and it honestly didn't effect my health one bit.  You can eat very healthy, and still include meat. 

 

I have a mass of allergies and celiac now, and don't have a choice about any of these.  If you have a choice, keep things simple would be my advice. If there is no major NEED to cut out a large amount of food that is basically healthy, then don't. 

[MEmama]

I was vegetarian for over 25 years, and recently started introducing some meat back into my diet. I do have to take iron, but that might have been the case anyway. Health wise I'm not sure there's any difference, it probably depends on lots of factors and there will always be long term effects we won't be able to determine. Certainly I did great eating vegetarian and now including a bit of meat is fine too.

 

Do what feels right to you. It doesn't matter what you call it.

Edited December 21, 2017 by MEmama

[ktgrok]

I was vegetarian on and off  from age 13 until I got pregnant at age 22, when I started craving red meat and was very anemic (a pregnancy thing for me....happens when I'm meat eating as well). For two of those years I was vegan. I think it was ages 17-19 that I ate some chicken and turkey here and there..not much. 

 

Oh, and when working at a summer camp where the food was TERRIBLE I did eat fish a few times, as it was the only fresh food in the place. And fish is a favorite food anyway. After living on frozen food for months I couldn't turn it down :)

 

I did not lose weight. I gained weight. I didn't eat a ton of beans or anything, in fact the only beans I like are black beans or baked beans. I did eat a decent amount of fake meat, but not every day or anything. I ate way too few veggies and fruit, I'm a super taster so many veggies taste too strong to me. 

 

My health was fine, not as good as when I eat more veggies/fruit but no different from when eating the standard american diet. Vegetarian to me was just no meat, not lots of veggies. Doable, but not advisable if looking for health benefits. 

 

There were times, as noted above, that my body NEEDED meat. This may not have happened if I'd had more beans and such in my diet, who knows. 

 

I can say that is one is vegetarian it doesn't mean instant good health or weight loss. French fries can be vegetarian, potato chips, cake, cookies, etc etc. 

 

I don't think it signifies a lack of health, or an abundance of health. 

 

I think other things, like eating whole foods versus processed, eating vegetables, etc are much more highly correlated with health. 

[Bluegoat]

I was a vegetarian from about 16 to - maybe 22?

 

I was super-skinny but I think that was lifestyle related and my age.

 

I don't think it really affected my energy levels or how I felt physically to a great extent.  The big difference with those things, and even my weight, was whether I was living home with my mom, eating good meals and sleeping regularly - or living on my own and eating ad hoc meals and burning the candle at both ends.  When I was doing the latter I was very thin and not all that healthy.

[wintermom]

I was thinking about vegetarianism casually for various reasons. We already eat all whole foods. My son reacts very badly behaviorally to beans and nut butters. Our whole family is thin though my sons eat a ton. I don't want them to lose weight. I make a lot of vegetrian meals already that consist of lots of veggies, lots of cheese, cream, eggs, potatoes, rice, some quinoa, some bread. My son can't eat too much carbs or any fruit or sugar or he won't sleep. Right now we eat meat almost everyday once a day and the boys have sausages some days for breakfast. Anyways, I'm just thinking about this but I probably won't do it.

 

With growing boys, especially, I'd keep the range of protein sources as large as possible. 

 

My former neighbour was from India, and a vegetarian for religious reasons. She always fed her 2 boys and husband meat. She had tons of "meat alternatives" as well for them, but meat was always included in their diets.

[wintermom]

 But it is always the more ethical choice. 

 

 

 

I find it unethical to deprive my family of the nutrients they need to grow. There are "ethics" and "ethics" I guess.

[Sherry in OH]

A calorie is a calorie regardless of whether it comes from animal or vegetable food sources.  The weight loss many new vegetarians experience is a result of reduced calorie intake.

 

Meat and other animal products are calorie dense.  Someone who substitutes an extra serving of vegetables for a serving of meat is likely to lose weight due to calorie deficiency.   A few meals like this are fine, but if the person does not increase calorie intake, the person will feel lethargic.  

 

On the other hand, a person who replaces meat with cheese and other calorie dense foods is unlikely to lose weight. They may actually consume more calories than when they ate meat and thus gain weight.  Another cause of weight gain in vegetarians is excessive snacking.

 

As far as what to eat, beans and nuts are nutritious and versatile.  Many vegetarians rely on beans as an inexpensive and filling protein source.  Nuts are calorie dense and supply both protein and fat.  A person can be vegetarian without eating a lot nuts or beans, but unless the person is eating only whole foods, beans in particular will be difficult to omit entirely since they are the main ingredient in most meat analogs.

 

Eggs and cheese and other dairy products can be a nutritious part of a vegetarian (not vegan) diet.  Over consumption of these is not any better for a vegetarian than for a non-vegetarian. 

 

I have been a vegetarian for 30ish years.  I initially tried a vegetarian diet for health reasons and found that after a time I lost all taste for meat.  While my health improved on a vegetarian diet, there have been social ramifications.   My recommendation is that if you do not have health or ethical reasons for becoming vegetarian, try eating less meat first.  

[Pawz4me]

I really don't understand why someone being a vegetarian would annoy anyone else or present much of a problem at all with social eating. I was a vegetarian many years ago when it was much less common than it is now. There was considerably less choice on restaurant menus and considerably less public knowledge of what being vegetarian meant, and considerably less social acceptance of it. Back then we were definitely considered . . .  . different. :lol:

 

But I can't think of a single time it presented anything remotely resembling a problem for me or an annoyance for anyone else. I never expected anyone to cater to my particular WOE. It was always possible to find something to eat--fruit, veggies, rolls, baked potato, salad, etc., w/o calling any attention to myself. I think many people I ate with regularly probably never even realized I was a vegetarian.

 

Now vegan . . . that's stepping things up quite a lot, and I can understand how it could present all sorts of challenges.

[MEmama]

I will offer one piece of unsolicited advice...if you decide to go vegetarian, the people in your life will appreciate it if you don't make it A Big Deal. Incessantly talking about ones choices makes a person sound self righteous and ugly. I'm not saying you would do that, of course, and briefly mentioning it when appropriate or asking questions, etc is totally fine, but the rest of it...is rude and off putting.

 

I know not everyone is as private as I am, but I can't stand the judgment that often comes with individual diets and I know I'm in good company. I encourage you to honour your needs and let others honour theirs.

 

Signed, someone who is fed up with a newly vegan friend.

[Guest]

I really don't understand why someone being a vegetarian would annoy anyone else or present much of a problem at all with social eating. I was a vegetarian many years ago when it was much less common than it is now. There was considerably less choice on restaurant menus and considerably less public knowledge of what being vegetarian meant, and considerably less social acceptance of it. Back then we were definitely considered . . . . different. :lol:

 

But I can't think of a single time it presented anything remotely resembling a problem for me or an annoyance for anyone else. I never expected anyone to cater to my particular WOE. It was always possible to find something to eat--fruit, veggies, rolls, baked potato, salad, etc., w/o calling any attention to myself. I think many people I ate with regularly probably never even realized I was a vegetarian.

 

Now vegan . . . that's stepping things up quite a lot, and I can understand how it could present all sorts of challenges.

In my experience, it was not that I felt people were annoyed with me, it was that I didn’t want anyone to cater to me, but then if they realized I was veg, they felt they has been an inconsiderate host. So, I felt bad that they felt bad. In one instance, it was a grill/barbecue party, and the host was upset to find me eating just a salad - upset that she had not catered to me and was afraid I found her grilled meat offensive. In another instance, it was a crab feast, and I just felt like an idiot sitting there, not eating crabs at a table of crab-eaters. There were also a couple of weddings that raised questions at the table; they were not especially hostile questions, but I did not enjoy having a discussion about why I was vegetarian right then. Also, during this time, I was quite especially thinner than average and so a lot of people scrutinized my eating anyway. It was uncomfortable and a lot of the reason I resumed eating meat was because I just wanted my eating to blend in to the culture more.

 

My good friend is vegan and I see what an issue it is for social eating, which is heightened by being about ethics. So she will never serve any animal product at her home or event, which is okay with me, as a guest, but it would be excruciating for me if *I* were hosting. I am a peacenik and I would have a very hard time with the comments I have seen people make at her parties.

[Arcadia]

My DS13 substitute cheese for meat when he doesn’t like the meat available in the kitchen. He cooks his own meals and he eats very little rice/pasta/potato. He is skinny and tall. My anemia worsen if I cut out all meat. Then I have to up my iron supplements intake. So I find it easier to eat meat now and then instead of taking more supplements.

[Greta]

If you became vegetarian at any time in your life I was wondering how it made you feel?  How did it affect your health? energy levels? immune system?  Did you stick with it?  If not, why not?  Is being vegetarian a lot different than just eating a lot less meat?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was a vegetarian for ethical reasons when I was in my late teens and early 20's.  I wasn't motivated by nutrition or health, knew nothing about proper nutrition for a vegetarian (or anyone else for that matter), and ate a ton of vegetarian junk food.  It was fine for the first couple of years, but by the end of it I was not feeling well.  I thought it was vegetarianism that was the problem, but in reality, it was the fact that I wasn't supplementing with B12 and I was eating TONS of sugar and other processed carbs and fried foods.  

 

In August, I went vegan for health reasons.  This time I had done my research and had a much better idea of what I would need to eat every day to ensure proper nutrition.  I take B12 supplements.  I eat whole foods.  I avoid white rice, white bread, sugar, etc.  I'm not afraid of carbs anymore (I did years of low-carb between these two times of vegetarianism), I just make sure they are WHOLE, natural carbs.  I did this in the hopes of reducing the frequency of my chronic migraines (it worked) and lowering my too-high cholesterol levels (I haven't had them re-checked yet but I'm pretty confident that it will work, because all of the research indicates that it will).  Added benefits:  improved emotions/mood, my skin looks healthier, and my digestive problems disappeared.  

 

As far as how it's affected my immune system, I can't say for sure.  Normally, I get any cold virus that comes within a mile of me, and I'm sick as a dog for a week, and prone to secondary infections that can make me sick for weeks to come.  A cold is a real ordeal for me!  My daughter got a cold in October, and I did not catch it.  That was pretty miraculous, but it is also just one data point, so it could have been a coincidence.

 

I think being a vegetarian is a lot different than just eating a lot less meat from a psychological and emotional perspective.  Going vegan helped me feel more at peace about the way I live my life.  I feel that it was good for me spiritually.  As to the health benefits, though, I think that depends on what you mean by "a lot less meat".  Modern Americans eat so much meat that what they might consider to be a lot less could still end up being a lot compared to other cultures and other times.  (I don't know that you're American, I'm just speaking of my own culture/time here.)  If you're interested in the topic, I'd encourage you to look at the Blue Zone studies.  The longest-lived populations eat very little meat (something like once or twice a month, and even then very modest portions, if I'm remembering correctly?), and the longest-lived one of all is the vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists of Loma Linda, CA.  You might also check out NutritionFacts.org and/or How Not to Die.

 

 

 

Is it possible to be vegetarian and stay healthy without eating beans or a lot of nuts and eating a lot of these, eggs and rice instead?

I don't eat nuts because they trigger migraines and some vegan experts such as Dr. Esselstyn recommend avoiding or limiting them because of the high fat content anyway (other vegan experts like Dr. Gregor encourage their consumption - I'm just saying I think they're optional, not required).  But I do consider beans to be a pretty important part of a vegan diet.  Perhaps if you're vegetarian and still eating eggs and cheese they're not quite so important?  Do you mean that you won't eat them at all, or just not very often?  I do think they're a very healthy food, so I would certainly encourage their consumption.  But as to whether they are necessary for a vegetarian or not, that's outside my scope of knowledge.

 

 

 

Does becoming vegetarian almost always cause weight loss?

Nope, that depends primarily upon the fat content of the diet, and the refined/processed carbohydrate content of the diet, in my opinion.  For me personally, I have learned that dairy is the food most strongly correlated to my weight.  If I stop eating dairy, I drop weight almost instantly.  If I start eating it again, I gain it back rapidly.  I'm guessing it's something about the combination of the high fat content and the high hormone content (and I'm not just talking about added hormones, but the naturally occurring hormones that cows produce in their milk).

[rainbowmama]

I was vegetarian from 14-23 and vegan for seven years of that.I gained weight during that time. I ate a lot of grains and beans. I remember the first time I had eggs cooked in butter after seven years of veganism, and it was the best thing I've ever tasted. I was pregnant and nursing at the time and had craved it for months.

[Pam in CT]

re going vegetarian vs vegan

I really don't understand why someone being a vegetarian would annoy anyone else or present much of a problem at all with social eating. I was a vegetarian many years ago when it was much less common than it is now. There was considerably less choice on restaurant menus and considerably less public knowledge of what being vegetarian meant, and considerably less social acceptance of it. Back then we were definitely considered . . .  . different. :lol:

 

But I can't think of a single time it presented anything remotely resembling a problem for me or an annoyance for anyone else. I never expected anyone to cater to my particular WOE. It was always possible to find something to eat--fruit, veggies, rolls, baked potato, salad, etc., w/o calling any attention to myself. I think many people I ate with regularly probably never even realized I was a vegetarian.

 

Now vegan . . . that's stepping things up quite a lot, and I can understand how it could present all sorts of challenges.

 

 

My daughter has been vegetarian for nearly 8 years, my husband decided to go vegan four months ago, and as the omnivore primary cook I agree with this.  It is easy-peasy to adjust to a vegetarian or two; trying to meet the needs of a vegan is IMMENSELY more challenging.  

 

And yet more so outside the family circle.  My daughter can easily manage at any restaurant, any potluck, at any other family's kitchen, without prior notice or difficulty.  My now vegan husband cannot.

[wintermom]

I really don't understand why someone being a vegetarian would annoy anyone else or present much of a problem at all with social eating. 

 

It's all about people's expectations. I've known some vegetarians who will outright complain to me that my only vegetarian offering at a bbq was a salad and bread. After all the years of knowing her, I should get more creative.  This was at a children's birthday party. She came with her kids who are not vegetarian. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by wintermom

[Crimson Wife]

I have tried to go vegetarian in the past and felt AWFUL on it despite careful meal planning and supplementation to make sure I got adequate protein, iron, zinc, and B12. I simply feel better eating "flexitarian" with small portions of poultry and fish and the very occasional bit of red meat.

 

Vegetarians and vegans who take a "you do your thing and let me do mine" are not annoying. It's the preachy ones who try to convert everyone to their way of eating who are annoying. Especially if they try to impose ridiculous limitations on dishes for group events like "you can't use white sugar because bone char might be used in processing it". :cursing:

[hornblower]

I find it unethical to deprive my family of the nutrients they need to grow. There are "ethics" and "ethics" I guess.

The macronutrients humans need are protein, carbohydrates and fats; these are readily available in plant sources. You absolutely can create healthy meal plans without animal products. 

 

 

[hornblower]

I have tried to go vegetarian in the past and felt AWFUL on it despite careful meal planning and supplementation to make sure I got adequate protein, iron, zinc, and B12. I simply feel better eating "flexitarian" with small portions of poultry and fish and the very occasional bit of red meat.

 

Vegetarians and vegans who take a "you do your thing and let me do mine" are not annoying. It's the preachy ones who try to convert everyone to their way of eating who are annoying. Especially if they try to impose ridiculous limitations on dishes for group events like "you can't use white sugar because bone char might be used in processing it". :cursing:

 

I won't buy sugar with bone char but if you made me an otherwise vegan cookie, I wouldn't ask about your sugar and I'll happily eat it. 

 

The thing is, it's a deeply ethical choice for many of us. Once you've immersed yourself in the animal agriculture end of things, once you've seen the horrific conditions, and done you share of protesting and rescuing animals,  you can't turn that reel off.  

 

For many of us it is just like going to a house where people use slaves. You don't just say "oh well, I won't own slaves but you do you you..."

[hornblower]

Hey guys, a happy bit of news in my life is last night I was checking out various stuff in preparation for my meetings with the BC Cancer Agency where I know registered dietitians etc are part of the care team. 

I was thinking, "oh man, do I have to line up all my references about plant based eating and cancer so they don't bug me?" 

Turns out their official nutrition for the breast cancer patient booklet recommends "plant-based low-fat"!!! Yay!  
 

That cheered me up no end. That's Forks Over Knives territory! That's Dr Greger's How Not to Die. 

And yeah, obviously, my diet didn't prevent me getting cancer. I've already heard about the "well, it didn't protect you from getting sick so I'm not giving up my big mac; soy probably made you sick!" comments.  

Veg*n diets in large population scale studies are healthy, excellent for the environment, and prevent animal cruelty and suffering. That's enough for me.  



I'm unsubbing this thread as it's getting into tiresome territory for me...just so you know why there won't be any more from me :)   
 

[Guest]

It's all about people's expectations. I've known some vegetarians who will outright complain to me that my only vegetarian offering at a bbq was a salad and bread. After all the years of knowing her, I should get more creative. This was at a children's birthday party. She came with her kids who are not vegetarian.

That’s crazy! That was the direct opposite of me. I was trying to skirt along, eating salad, but people asked me why I didn’t want a burger/hot dog.

[wintermom]

nm

Edited December 21, 2017 by wintermom

[Guest]

 

I won't buy sugar with bone char but if you made me an otherwise vegan cookie, I wouldn't ask about your sugar and I'll happily eat it.

 

The thing is, it's a deeply ethical choice for many of us. Once you've immersed yourself in the animal agriculture end of things, once you've seen the horrific conditions, and done you share of protesting and rescuing animals, you can't turn that reel off.

 

For many of us it is just like going to a house where people use slaves. You don't just say "oh well, I won't own slaves but you do you you..."

And this is where the ethics of eating animal products does come into tricky territory with polite hospitality. I have been giving this thought lately, because I don’t think there is a simple answer to it. My DD’s boyfriend’s parents are vegan. So my thought is: what would happen if they wanted a wedding to be 100% vegan? In one sense, I think it is troubling to impose a very different standard on a hundred or so guests. But then, I also compare it to alcohol, coming as I do from people who never drink alcohol. My parents had all celebrations, parties, weddings, etc. with not a drop of alcohol. (My wedding had it, because I was an independent adult and they did not pay for my wedding.) So, is it wrong for my parents to impose their standards of scrupulosity on every guest at their events? Or would it be wrong for them to be complicit in the consumption of alcohol in their presence, which violates their personal standards of conduct?

 

It’s an interesting thing to think about.

[eternalsummer]

I eat a mostly vegan diet for ethical reasons; I think you'd get farther giving up cheese and eggs and still eating some meat and fish than giving up meat and keeping the dairy/eggs.  Not eating dairy really keeps you from a fair amount of snacking and eating out, so you end up with more whole foods and less junk food - although be warned, after a few years you learn what you can eat out and junk food is available again :)

 

I did try giving up all farmed food for a while, which meant giving up all red meat - I found that after 2-3 weeks I really really craved just one hamburger.  I'm not sure what the nutritional deficit was.  I discovered a company that sells wild-slaughtered deer online (they don't farm them, but cull them from ranches in Texas), so I ordered some of that and eat red meat once every couple of weeks.  We do eat a fair amount of wild-caught fish, mostly salmon and some cod- at least once a week.

 

 

 

[eternalsummer]

And this is where the ethics of eating animal products does come into tricky territory with polite hospitality. I have been giving this thought lately, because I don’t think there is a simple answer to it. My DD’s boyfriend’s parents are vegan. So my thought is: what would happen if they wanted a wedding to be 100% vegan? In one sense, I think it is troubling to impose a very different standard on a hundred or so guests. But then, I also compare it to alcohol, coming as I do from people who never drink alcohol. My parents had all celebrations, parties, weddings, etc. with not a drop of alcohol. (My wedding had it, because I was an independent adult and they did not pay for my wedding.) So, is it wrong for my parents to impose their standards of scrupulosity on every guest at their events? Or would it be wrong for them to be complicit in the consumption of alcohol in their presence, which violates their personal standards of conduct?

 

It’s an interesting thing to think about.

 

If they wanted their wedding to be 100% vegan, what would be the problem? Or are you saying, what if they asked their son to make his wedding 100% vegan? Or are you saying, what if they refused to go to a wedding that wasn't 100% vegan?

 

The difference between the alcohol consideration and the vegan consideration is that your parents didn't abstain from alcohol because the consumption of alcohol causes needless suffering in others (at least, that is my understanding - I'm not religious so I may be incorrect) but because it was a religious requirement, right?  But a vegan believes that eating animals causes needless suffering - it's an ethical requirement, not a religious one.  I can see refusing to pay for or participate in something that you see as causing suffering, even if other people are okay with it.

 

That is to say, if you lived in the south in the 1820s, or whatever, and your DD was dating a guy whose parents were abolitionists, you might well say, jeez, are they going to have no slaves serving us at the wedding?  Is that rude or what?  And they might very well say to themselves, either 1. the social convention is more important in this instance than our personal conventions, so we won't impose a serverless wedding on our guests, or 2. we cannot abide the use of slaves at an event we're sponsoring (or maybe even, we can't attend an event that has slaves - hard in the south in the 1820s I imagine!).  

[Crimson Wife]

And this is where the ethics of eating animal products does come into tricky territory with polite hospitality. I have been giving this thought lately, because I don’t think there is a simple answer to it. My DD’s boyfriend’s parents are vegan. So my thought is: what would happen if they wanted a wedding to be 100% vegan? In one sense, I think it is troubling to impose a very different standard on a hundred or so guests. But then, I also compare it to alcohol, coming as I do from people who never drink alcohol. My parents had all celebrations, parties, weddings, etc. with not a drop of alcohol. (My wedding had it, because I was an independent adult and they did not pay for my wedding.) So, is it wrong for my parents to impose their standards of scrupulosity on every guest at their events? Or would it be wrong for them to be complicit in the consumption of alcohol in their presence, which violates their personal standards of conduct?

 

It’s an interesting thing to think about.

 

I don't have a problem with hosts serving only dishes that fit their way of eating. What I have a problem with is them imposing it on group potlucks or similar events. And not just reasonable requests like avoiding meat/poultry, eggs, and dairy as ingredients but dictating that people cannot use non-animal products that MIGHT have been processed using a small amount of an animal product. That crosses the line from reasonable ethical concerns to paranoia about "contamination".

[OrganicJen]

 

I won't buy sugar with bone char but if you made me an otherwise vegan cookie, I wouldn't ask about your sugar and I'll happily eat it.

 

The thing is, it's a deeply ethical choice for many of us. Once you've immersed yourself in the animal agriculture end of things, once you've seen the horrific conditions, and done you share of protesting and rescuing animals, you can't turn that reel off.

 

For many of us it is just like going to a house where people use slaves. You don't just say "oh well, I won't own slaves but you do you you..."

I think it's a bit unfair to lump all meat eaters together. We eat meat that is humanely pasture raised on neighbor's family farms and the animals are all very humanely treated and live healthy lives outdoors. No horrific conditions at all, they are treated better than many people treat their pets. I'm not debating the choice that people have to be vegan I'm just pointing out that it's an over generalization to imply that everyone eating meat is eating animals who were raised in horrific conditions comparable to slavery.

[Crimson Wife]

Here's an interesting article from a former vegan blogger who now admits she suffered from an eating disorder called "orthorexia":

 

Orthorexia is a little-known condition. It's not currently recognized by the DSM-5 as a clinical diagnosis, but many suffer the symptoms: a fixation on purity, and a fear of foods that might derail that “perfection.†Those of us who have a tendency toward extremes in other areas are more susceptible to developing it — especially once we start cutting out entire food groups.

 

Quite a few vegans of my acquaintance definitely show this kind of extreme fixation on "purity".

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think it's a bit unfair to lump all meat eaters together. We eat meat that is humanely pasture raised on neighbor's family farms and the animals are all very humanely treated and live healthy lives outdoors. No horrific conditions at all, they are treated better than many people treat their pets. I'm not debating the choice that people have to be vegan I'm just pointing out that it's an over generalization to imply that everyone eating meat is eating animals who were raised in horrific conditions comparable to slavery.

They still end up killed and eaten, though...vegetarians may be glad you didn't torture them first, but the end game is the same. If I were an ethical vegan this defense would make me kind of nauseous.

[OrganicJen]

They still end up killed and eaten, though...vegetarians may be glad you didn't torture them first, but the end game is the same. If I were an ethical vegan this defense would make me kind of nauseous.

I think you may be confused. I was specifically responding to the comment about the horrendous conditions the animals are raised in. I was not debating about killing animals at all, it was specifically in response to comment above about the ethics of the conditions the animals are raised in.

[wintermom]

I think it's a bit unfair to lump all meat eaters together. We eat meat that is humanely pasture raised on neighbor's family farms and the animals are all very humanely treated and live healthy lives outdoors. No horrific conditions at all, they are treated better than many people treat their pets. I'm not debating the choice that people have to be vegan I'm just pointing out that it's an over generalization to imply that everyone eating meat is eating animals who were raised in horrific conditions comparable to slavery.

 

I think it's more a question of respecting and understand others; their values, ethics and reality. There are many, many factors involved in living and surviving as humans in the world today, just as there was in the world centuries ago.  Most human cultures survived and thrived on meat consumption and continue to do so. For many cultures the importance of animals was equal to that of humans. To judge people with a broad stroke as unethical because their values and situations are different, is not only unfair but thoughtless and disrespectful. 

 

For example, in northern Canada, there was an indigenous group of people who survived and thrived on hunting deer/caribou. When the caribou population decreased by over-hunting on the white man's part, the Canadian government sent supplies of wheat, dried beans, soup, etc. No meat. This food was completely inappropriate for the energy supply necessary for these people to function in the cold. Yet the food is "ethical" for certain people, while causing starvation in the real living conditions. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by wintermom

[eternalsummer]

I think you may be confused. I was specifically responding to the comment about the horrendous conditions the animals are raised in. I was not debating about killing animals at all, it was specifically in response to comment above about the ethics of the conditions the animals are raised in.

 

 

I have not yet met a single person, online or in real life, ever, who doesn't occasionally eat factory farmed animal products if they eat animal products at all.  If you are one, you are the first!  and I will tell my husband I finally met one :)

[eternalsummer]

double posted, sorry 

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by eternalsummer

[Guest]

If they wanted their wedding to be 100% vegan, what would be the problem? Or are you saying, what if they asked their son to make his wedding 100% vegan? Or are you saying, what if they refused to go to a wedding that wasn't 100% vegan?

 

The difference between the alcohol consideration and the vegan consideration is that your parents didn't abstain from alcohol because the consumption of alcohol causes needless suffering in others (at least, that is my understanding - I'm not religious so I may be incorrect) but because it was a religious requirement, right? But a vegan believes that eating animals causes needless suffering - it's an ethical requirement, not a religious one. I can see refusing to pay for or participate in something that you see as causing suffering, even if other people are okay with it.

 

That is to say, if you lived in the south in the 1820s, or whatever, and your DD was dating a guy whose parents were abolitionists, you might well say, jeez, are they going to have no slaves serving us at the wedding? Is that rude or what? And they might very well say to themselves, either 1. the social convention is more important in this instance than our personal conventions, so we won't impose a serverless wedding on our guests, or 2. we cannot abide the use of slaves at an event we're sponsoring (or maybe even, we can't attend an event that has slaves - hard in the south in the 1820s I imagine!).

I’m saying if they asked their son (my DD’s boyfriend) to make the wedding 100% vegan. Or, suppose they were the parents of the bride and were actually paying for all or part of it and wanted it therefore to be 100% vegan. Of ciurse, if it were their own wedding, they can have whatever food they desire.

 

Your hypothetical situation of slave owner vs. non slave owner is a good comparison and not one I feel I can easily answer. I see both sides of why this would be difficult.

 

I do not think alcohol consumption is vastly different (at least from my parents’ perspective) because they do not view consuming alcohol as just one person’s choice. They view it more as a scourge on society. So if Uncle Bob is at the wedding getting lit, they would think they were complicit in whatever bad outcome might come as a result - he drives drunk, he is abusive when he drinks, his children have a crappy model of a man. It’s not just that they think it is unholy to do to one’s own body - although they think that, too.

 

I have had arguments with DH about our parties because I do not want to generate more plastic trash than necessary, but he does not care about this issue. I have had a big water dispenser instead of water bottles because plastic water bottles are so excessively wasteful, but he thinks it is rude to not give people water bottles because it is standard and normal and people want “pure†water that they feel ownership of. I have sometimes done it “myâ€way and sometimes done it “hisâ€way. The party I am about to host tomorrow will have water bottles and I sighed as I loaded them on the cart. I provide real plates (not disposables), at least until I exhaust my fairly extensive collection, but utensils will have to be plastic simply because I don’t own 50sets of durable utensils. But I’m happy when people don’t throw them in the trash, but put them in the sink instead.

[OrganicJen]

I have not yet met a single person, online or in real life, ever, who doesn't occasionally eat factory farmed animal products if they eat animal products at all. If you are one, you are the first! and I will tell my husband I finally met one :)

That's so strange, maybe it's because I'm in a more rural area that it's more common around me. I know lots of people like us.