Online classes and academic integrity

[skimomma]

I am putting this in the high school forum because I am thinking mostly of the young adult subset of homeschoolers who may be less supervised during their academic activities.

 

Dd mentioned that one of her classmates in one of her online classes was expelled from the class due to cheating.  She didn't know the nature of the offense.  This turned into a lengthy conversation about cheating and online classes.  I am home with dd most days and am literally right next to her during exams and most graded work so she does not have an opportunity to cheat.  I feel that is my end of the deal....to ensure that dd's work is indeed her own.  But I know some kids are home alone or not supervised closely at all times.

 

Dd said she suspects that many people cheat in online classes because it is extremely easy to do so when a student is not supervised.  She expressed a normal level of dismay at the unfairness of perhaps being compared or graded against students who may have cheated.  She specifically mentioned the NLE exam (not an online class, obviously) where students are ranked based on the performance of the group as a whole.  I believe the instructions for the exam require direct supervision, or at least that is always what I have done, but dd is correct in that it would be very easy to cheat. There may even be parents who would allow/encourage their child to cheat since scholarship money is at stake.  I had not really thought of it that way and because I am home and supervising, I had not put any thought into the subject until now.  

 

How common do you think it is for students to cheat in online high school level courses?

 

Do you talk to your kids about this?  If so, what are your talking points?

 

Have you ever caught your own child cheating?  If so, how did you handle it? 

 

Has your child ever had knowledge of another student cheating?  If so, what did he/she do about it?

 

Are online providers doing enough to ensure cheaters are not negatively affecting non-cheatng classmates?  Or is that really the parents' job?

[RootAnn]

Every year, dd#1's Spanish teacher (Sr Gamache) would mention at some point that a student (in either Span 1-3 - he didn't say which level or get more specific) admitted to cheating.

 

DD#3's provider for Latin, Memoria Press, recently sent out a video message that mentioned catching some students cheating already this year. (I don't know how they catch them.)

 

All of the online providers that we've used have a policy against cheating, plagiarism, and academic dishonesty. I really don't know how the provider would catch many forms of cheating (using the internet during a test, using a book or notes during a test, etc.). Many, but not all, providers request that the parent proctor exams and sign off at the bottom of the test or on the last page indicating they did so. I don't know how much this helps keep cheating down as it is easy for the child to just get the parent's signature without telling them what it really indicates. (Although, dd#1's math teacher @ WHA sends out a mail message just to the parents mentioning this requirement along with the password for the exam.)

[eternalsummer]

I would not be surprised if some parents help their kids cheat (or at least turn a blind eye) on online classes.  I figure that, largely speaking, it's none of my business - DD is not competing against other kids in her class, as the tests aren't curved; she's competing against herself, or against perfection.  If you have a kid who gets all As in Lukeion's Latin classes, through AP Latin, but gets a 2 on the AP test at the end of year 4, well, I think colleges are going to look at the As with some skepticism unless there's a documented mitigating factor.  

 

It does irk DD to not be the absolute best student in her online classes - she wants to win everything all the time - and I've explained to her that the majority of the kids in her class are at least 1-3 years older, so she's really just doing this to learn Latin, not to win a prize.  She's not wholly convinced, though.

[Haiku]

Life is not fair. There will always be people who try to cheat the system, regardless of what the system is. We can't let this unhinge us. We just have to do the best we can do and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I would not encourage my child to report another student for cheating unless the class's honor code required them to do so. Even then I would think twice. Too many of these situations turn into a "my word against theirs" situation and, honestly, I don't want the emotional fallout of that for my kid. My dd who graduated from college in the spring reported a classmate who cheated (and dd had electronic proof of the cheating). The professor did nothing, and dd was upset about it for weeks. It wasn't worth the emotional price she paid for getting involved.

[teachermom2834]

I am aware of the possibility and concerned about my own child cheating but I would not worry at all about the others in the class.

 

I do try to keep an eye on my ds. I consider him trustworthy but all of my dc have attempted to cut corners at one time or another.

[SJ.]

I am curious about whether my child's classmates are honest during tests and quizzes. This is a class where I do not feel the instructor adequately prepares the students for the tests and quizzes the instructor creates. I feel this does affect my child if my child is one of the only students having a difficult time with the tests and it does not give the instructor adequate feedback. If many students are using their notes and getting 100% then the instructor has no reason to consider changing the instruction. I hope this makes sense.

 

PS - my child is in middle school taking an entry level language class (language 1) that is open to 7th and up but is equivalent to a high school credit.

[Arcadia]

I don’t know and I don’t care if my kids online classmates are cheating for their online classes. The students would still have to do well in proctored exams like for Stanford Online High School, OSU. They would also have to do well in some interviews which has questions on subject knowledge. My kids think the temptation is there to cheat but they think it’s up to the teacher to police. It’s not something that they want to spend time thinking or worrying about.

 

This is a class where I do not feel the instructor adequately prepares the students for the tests and quizzes the instructor creates. I feel this does affect my child if my child is one of the only students having a difficult time with the tests and it does not give the instructor adequate feedback. If many students are using their notes and getting 100% then the instructor has no reason to consider changing the instruction. I hope this makes sense.

 

PS - my child is in middle school taking an entry level language class (language 1) that is open to 7th and up but is equivalent to a high school credit.

My DS12 took CTY Chinese last summer as an uprising 7th grader. It can be used for high school credit. I think many in his class has heritage Chinese speakers parent(s). So parents can easily help with whatever their kid doesn’t understand and the kids do not have to rely solely on the instructor’s lessons and notes. I don’t remember if CTY language classes has quizzes/tests because my kids are on their own with those.

[crazyforlatin]

I don’t know and I don’t care if my kids online classmates are cheating for their online classes. The students would still have to do well in proctored exams like for Stanford Online High School, OSU. They would also have to do well in some interviews which has questions on subject knowledge. My kids think the temptation is there to cheat but they think it’s up to the teacher to police. It’s not something that they want to spend time thinking or worrying about.

 

My DS12 took CTY Chinese last summer as an uprising 7th grader. It can be used for high school credit. I think many in his class has heritage Chinese speakers parent(s). So parents can easily help with whatever their kid doesn’t understand and the kids do not have to rely solely on the instructor’s lessons and notes. I don’t remember if CTY language classes has quizzes/tests because my kids are on their own with those.

What does it mean by SOHS proctoring - do they want us to find someone outside the family?

[Arcadia]

What does it mean by SOHS proctoring - do they want us to find someone outside the family?

Yes. SIL does that service.

“Test Proctoring

There is no charge for SIL students taking tests for SIL courses. For exams from an outside program such as BYU or Stanford Online High School, there is a proctor fee of $25 per exam to be paid at the time of the exam.†http://www.sileducation.org/tuition/

 

SOHS proctored exam schedule

https://ohs.stanford.edu/gateway/assessment-calendar

[CAJinBE]

In my daughter's online classes, the final has to be proctored by a non-family member. The proctor receives a password to unlock the exam in the student's presence. Then they have to send in a form stating that the exam was properly taken. Also if the student opens another window or tab on their computer during the exam, the exam will shut down and the student will receive a failing grade. We've obviously not tested this part, but we do use proctors. 

 

Sometimes the exam questions seem really random so I've often wondered what would happen if a student did well all year without cheating, but then did poorly on a final exam because the test wasn't what was expected or wasn't fair for whatever reason. Would the teacher suspect cheating on the normal work and quizzes? Fortunately this scenario hasn't happened to us but there have been test questions we've felt came out of nowhere. I think they are randomly generated from some sort of question bank to prevent cheating by passing on old tests. You are not allowed to keep a copy of any final exam for this reason.

 

When I think back to my time in public high school decades ago, I remember being able to easily predict what the teacher would ask on the exams based on how they taught the course. Of course the teachers made their own tests back then and I never had any AP exams to worry about. My school didn't have AP classes. 

[eternalsummer]

I am curious about whether my child's classmates are honest during tests and quizzes. This is a class where I do not feel the instructor adequately prepares the students for the tests and quizzes the instructor creates. I feel this does affect my child if my child is one of the only students having a difficult time with the tests and it does not give the instructor adequate feedback. If many students are using their notes and getting 100% then the instructor has no reason to consider changing the instruction. I hope this makes sense.

 

PS - my child is in middle school taking an entry level language class (language 1) that is open to 7th and up but is equivalent to a high school credit.

 

It's possible; on the other hand, if most of the students are 2-3 years older, they may have better study and note taking skills.  DD is also taking a first year language course that is high school level and is mostly 9th and up (through Lukeion); for her, taking notes and studying and being conscientious about checking her work before submitting quizzes, getting homework in on time, etc. has been as much a part of her development in the class as the actual Latin.  

 

That's why we chose Lukeion, though.  

[madteaparty]

I don't worry about people cheating in online classes because my kid isn't being ranked in those.

Theoretically (per a recent thread here) one can even change the grade/omit a class from the transcript if they were so inclined.

I do wonder what happens with, say, writing contests. One year, i read DS's draft and I thought it was so bad I didn't let him submit. So that's one extreme. I wonder what the other extreme looks like.

Life has a way of catching up to you, but it might take a while. I know someone with impeccable academic credentials that failed the bar many times. But to look at their resume you'd develop an inferiority complex.

Edited November 20, 2017 by madteaparty

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't worry about it either.  In more serious school situations, unis use proctoring services (basically you take an exam on camera). 

 

I'm kinda surprised by what some people consider cheating though.  My son at one point thought it was cheating that we do our graded homework together.  The teacher at one point specifically said she thinks it's a great idea to find a buddy to work with on it!  Apparently he missed her saying that.  But even if she had not said it, I think it would be ridiculous to consider that cheating.  It's homework!  Since when is homework an assignment meant to demonstrate mastery?  I think it's ridiculous they have such a thing as "graded homework" for math, but they do it so students do at least some of the homework (cuz a lot of them don't do any homework). 

 

I agree with mad....if you cheat your way through everything...it'll eventually bite you in the arse.  And if somehow it never does, well then you must be one heck of a resourceful person who manages to manipulate others to do stuff for you...so hey that's a skill.  LOL  (maybe not an ethical one, but one we know some ppl have and use). 

[skimomma]

I would not say I am "worried" about it, I had just not put a lot of thought into just how easy it is to cheat.  I feel like I need to start having regular conversations about it with dd and make triple sure I am not missing any potential opportunities for her to cheat.

 

After reading the responses and thinking on it some, ideally, other students cheating has little impact on the non-cheaters.  One area that I have seen first hand, as a previous poster mentioned, is an instructor maybe not realizing a quiz or exam has issues because there may be no "outcry" from the students.  Once, dd had an exam in which a good chunk came out of left field.  Dd did uncharacteristically poorly on it.  It was the type of exam where we can see it after it is taken so she and I went through it and found that about 1/3 of the content had not been covered in class or in the textbook.  I told her not to worry about it, that I was sure the teacher would figure it out and address it with the class.

 

Class came and went with no mention.  I finally had dd email the teacher with the specific question numbers.  The teacher indeed had made a mistake and put the wrong content on the exam.  Dd was the first to alert her.  There are only two explanations for why this is true.  Either the other students simply didn't care that there was content that seemed to come from nowhere and the poor grades that would have had to result from that mistake.  Or the other students cheated on the exam without even realizing the content was not appropriate.  I was baffled by the situation until this thread.

 

That is a "little" thing in the scheme of things, I guess.

 

I don't think I would encourage dd to turn in another student unless she was required to do so by the class policy.  No good can come of that.  

 

[Donna]

I've noticed for the online courses dd is taking through the community college, the majority of the grades rely more on work other than the quizzes/exams.

 

There are weekly discussion questions/responses to others' work that require reading the chapters in the book prior to answering. For the art course, there are art projects and a visit to an art museum with a quite lengthy analysis of three works required (along with "selfies" to "prove" the student actually went to the art museum). The psychology course has a term paper, brochure, and pre-term paper writing/project assignments.

 

All that to say, even a student who cheated on the quizzes/exams could still do poorly in the courses.

[MarkT]

1) If the cheating is someone else doing the work then that is certainly possible and I suspect is probably fairly high for community college classes 

 

2) my son's online classes allow open book for the quizzes (or at least it did not say closed book) so that is not cheating IMHO but it has a proctor and closed book for the final so if you didn't learn the material it will be quite obvious

 

 

 

 

[Penelope]

There will always be cheaters, unfortunately. Papers and assignments done outside of class are just as easy to cheat on in a regular school as they are online.

 

Apparently there are cheater websites for many different textbooks. I have heard of school kids using their phones during a test to cheat with math apps. How in the world a teacher misses this, I don’t know.

 

Wilson Hill is one I know that gives the parent a password for quizzes and tests and requires that a parent proctors them. They are very clear about the expectations for parents from the beginning. This is something I have not seen from the other providers I have looked at. I don’t know if that has to do with their accreditation process or just something they are doing to address problems they have had, but I think more providers should do the same.

 

I think that it probably is much much easier to cheat online. Some parents are probably naive about just how easily it would be done, and some probably don’t pay much attention. One of the reasons parents use online classes is to lighten their load since there are often multiple children homeschooling. Having to proctor a lot of assignments removes some of that benefit. So I do think cheating happens. I just can’t worry about it because there is nothing I can do except make sure it doesn’t happen on my end.

[Bootsie]

Life is not fair. There will always be people who try to cheat the system, regardless of what the system is. We can't let this unhinge us. We just have to do the best we can do and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I would not encourage my child to report another student for cheating unless the class's honor code required them to do so. Even then I would think twice. Too many of these situations turn into a "my word against theirs" situation and, honestly, I don't want the emotional fallout of that for my kid. My dd who graduated from college in the spring reported a classmate who cheated (and dd had electronic proof of the cheating). The professor did nothing, and dd was upset about it for weeks. It wasn't worth the emotional price she paid for getting involved.

I am sorry that this happened to your child.  Is it possible that the professor did something without your child knowing?  As a professor, I know that there are times that one student may not think I am doing anything, but for privacy reasons I cannot let them know the details.  Or, there is some reason I know that the particular incident will not be one that stands up through the university's judicial process, but I am on notice to watch for other evidence (or to correct an issue that was allowing for cheating).  

[GoodGrief]

The possibility of others cheating didn't bother me as the end result is a student who cheated themselves.  The AP Exam results and the ability of the student to use the knowledge subsequently in the next course or in life will reveal the cheating and hit them where it counts, the pocketbook. 

 

 

 

^^^this. Never occurred to me to be concerned about what others in the homeschool online classes were doing. For us, the point of the online class was the learning, not the grade. I did have my daughter take several standardized tests though (SAT subject tests and AP exams) because I know schools would possibly be skeptical of "mommy grades", and reasonably so.

 

In the university online classes that my daughter took, exams were proctored at the school to minimize the possibility of cheating, I suppose.

 

[Penguin]

1) If the cheating is someone else doing the work then that is certainly possible and I suspect is probably fairly high for community college classes (snip)

 

Why do you specifically suspect community college classes? Do you mean in comparison to online high school classes? In comparison to 4 yr college online classes? I am hoping you don’t mean to imply that community college students are more likely to lack integrity than other groups of students.

[MarkT]

Why do you specifically suspect community college classes? Do you mean in comparison to online high school classes? In comparison to 4 yr college online classes? I am hoping you don’t mean to imply that community college students are more likely to lack integrity than other groups of students.

yes because many CC students are weak in certain areas such as math but need to check the College Algebra box. 

 

I believe if you did an anonymous honest survey you would see more CC students than the other two groups.  But of course I may be wrong!

 

I personally I know of two CC situations;

One was using a paid tutor to help with the online quizzes and the other was with a parent (of course I have no idea how they did on their finals which I believe were proctored).

[Penguin]

yes because many CC students are weak in certain areas such as math but need to check the College Algebra box.

 

Motivation to cheat is not limited to CC students.

 

Students at cut-throat, top schools have motivation to cheat. Students who need to maintain a GPA to keep a scholarship have motivation to cheat. Motivation to do so does not mean that cheating occurs. I’m not in the mood for searching, but it isn’t hard to find cases of cheating at universities.

 

Plenty of CC students have integrity, even the ones who are weak in math.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Penguin

[Dmmetler]

yes because many CC students are weak in certain areas such as math but need to check the College Algebra box.

 

I believe if you did an anonymous honest survey you would see more CC students than the other two groups. But of course I may be wrong!

 

I personally I know of two CC situations;

One was using a paid tutor to help with the online quizzes and the other was with a parent (of course I have no idea how they did on their finals which I believe were proctored).

At the CC that DD and my mentee both attend, neither would be considered cheating because there is free tutoring provided via the ASC, all online assignments are open-book, and all allow at least 3 redos. If you struggle, you are SUPPOSED to get help and try again. The goal of the quizzes and homework is to help you learn. And almost none of the grade comes from this material.

 

Exams, even for online classes, are proctored on campus. Papers are checked for plagiarism.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Dmmetler2

[MarkT]

Motivation to cheat is not limited to CC students.

 

Students at cut-throat, top schools have motivation to cheat. Students who need to maintain a GPA to keep a scholarship have motivation to cheat. Motivation to do so does not mean that cheating occurs. I’m not in the mood for searching, but it isn’t hard to find cases of cheating at universities.

 

Plenty of CC students have integrity, even the ones who are weak in math.

I certainly wasn't saying most CC students have low integrity. In all cases HS, CC, 4-year, cheating is among a small percentage of the population. I was just stating my opinion that I thought it was higher percentage wise among CC students and why.

 

Maybe someone did an actual study.

[regentrude]

Dd said she suspects that many people cheat in online classes because it is extremely easy to do so when a student is not supervised.  She expressed a normal level of dismay at the unfairness of perhaps being compared or graded against students who may have cheated.  She specifically mentioned the NLE exam (not an online class, obviously) where students are ranked based on the performance of the group as a whole.  I believe the instructions for the exam require direct supervision, or at least that is always what I have done, but dd is correct in that it would be very easy to cheat. There may even be parents who would allow/encourage their child to cheat since scholarship money is at stake.  I had not really thought of it that way and because I am home and supervising, I had not put any thought into the subject until now.  

 

How common do you think it is for students to cheat in online high school level courses?

...

Are online providers doing enough to ensure cheaters are not negatively affecting non-cheatng classmates?  Or is that really the parents' job?

 

Instructors who teach online classes should take steps to ensure that there are barriers to cheating and that cheating is not rewarded.

They can require tests to be taken under proctored conditions in a designated testing center with a non-family proctor.

They can design open book exams, so that students are expected to consult their sources. (really, an open book test can be much harder than a closed book one)

They can set up the point structure so that quizzes and daily work are expected to earn full points.

 

If the class is important, the instructor will take those steps.This still won't safeguard against having somebody take the entire class under a fake persona, which is happening at the college level, and there is an entire industry to provide such services.

 

If the class substitutes for a homeschool high school class where parents issue the official transcript anyway, I could imagine providers not really putting much efforts into making their classes cheat proof - parents are free to put whatever they want on their transcripts anyway.

 

There are assignments where nothing can be done to prevent cheating. Essays are notorious, whether that be an online or an in seat class. Short of sophisticated linguistic analysis, instructors cannot prove that the student was not the author if they do not find plagiarism.

Edited November 21, 2017 by regentrude

[daijobu]

yes because many CC students are weak in certain areas such as math but need to check the College Algebra box. 

 

I believe if you did an anonymous honest survey you would see more CC students than the other two groups.  But of course I may be wrong!

 

 

 

Not all students who attend 4 year colleges are strong in STEM.  This NY Times article documents cheating among aspiring computer science students who lack the chops to complete their assignments legitimately.  Among the universities specifically mentioned:

 

Purdue

Stanford

Brown

Harvard

Yale

[Selkie]

In my daughter's online classes, the final has to be proctored by a non-family member. The proctor receives a password to unlock the exam in the student's presence. Then they have to send in a form stating that the exam was properly taken. Also if the student opens another window or tab on their computer during the exam, the exam will shut down and the student will receive a failing grade. We've obviously not tested this part, but we do use proctors. 

 

Same here. We use Laurel Springs for our kids' online classes and they have these same rules and requirements.

[Jann in TX]

I teach online-- I ask that all tests be proctored-- I also know that a certain percent of students will cheat on one or more exam.

It saddens me but there is not much I can do about it. 

 

If I suspect cheating I mention it to parents-- I've only had to drop one student for repeated cheating (obvious he was using an online interface for his 'solutions'.  I often get siblings taking a class together... I've seen way too many work the same problem incorrectly the same incorrect way (like crazy wrong or 2 - 5 = 14 wrong for Algebra 2)... 

 

This year I had a weak Algebra 1 student turn in a test that had calculus notations all over it... parent swore it was proctored... uh, yea right...

 

Every year I get a few zingers-- one student emailed to tell me his test would be late because his mother had not checked it for errors yet....  another student a few years ago told me that problem 5 on the test must have a typo in it because his mother and his grandmother were not able to work it out like the rest of the problems...

 

I try to encourage academic honesty among my students-- I also will allow retests if a student bombs/fails a test and is willing to work hard to get back up to speed in the class... I'm optimistic that the option for a retest helps to lessen the impulse to cheat.

[madteaparty]

I teach online-- I ask that all tests be proctored-- I also know that a certain percent of students will cheat on one or more exam.

It saddens me but there is not much I can do about it.

 

If I suspect cheating I mention it to parents-- I've only had to drop one student for repeated cheating (obvious he was using an online interface for his 'solutions'. I often get siblings taking a class together... I've seen way too many work the same problem incorrectly the same incorrect way (like crazy wrong or 2 - 5 = 14 wrong for Algebra 2)...

 

This year I had a weak Algebra 1 student turn in a test that had calculus notations all over it... parent swore it was proctored... uh, yea right...

 

Every year I get a few zingers-- one student emailed to tell me his test would be late because his mother had not checked it for errors yet.... another student a few years ago told me that problem 5 on the test must have a typo in it because his mother and his grandmother were not able to work it out like the rest of the problems...

 

I try to encourage academic honesty among my students-- I also will allow retests if a student bombs/fails a test and is willing to work hard to get back up to speed in the class... I'm optimistic that the option for a retest helps to lessen the impulse to cheat.

Respect for grandma, though 😂

[Arcadia]

another student a few years ago told me that problem 5 on the test must have a typo in it because his mother and his grandmother were not able to work it out like the rest of the problems...

It may not be cheating though. The mom and grandma may just be too impatient to wait for the test solutions and did the test questions as well separately from the child.

Sometimes I grade my kids work after they submitted it just because I had too much free time. So my kids kind of know their grades before they get their work back.