Community College profs/classes...lower quality than 4-yr schools?

[TheLisa]

I'm sharing the experiences of a local h-s graduate, who is now at cc. He made the transition to being on their schedule, following the rules,etc, and it seems he can't win. Is this common?

 

His calc prof is always late, very disorganized, and changes the schedule on his whim. For example, the quiz was supposed to be Mon. The student was sick on Fri, missed that class, and what do you know, the prof decides to give the quiz EARLY, and will not give a make-up! Next week, the test was supposed to be MON, the prof "forgot," just started teaching until someone finally asked, "Isn't there a test today?" He said oops and put it off until later that week. This prof also will not give any partial credit- if you miss a step, the whole thing is wrong!

 

Another teacher is in his own world- actually I think he is jealous that this kid knows as much as he does. So my student friend wrote the longest paper in class, participates in discussion, always knows the answer, and is getting a low B. He saw some of the other papers- most did not even include the req. citations, and they received better grades. I did not read his paper, but he does know how to write a paper and he knows the subject.

 

I could go on. I know college profs can be a little "off" but this is CC. Most cc classes I had were like High School Part 2. Straightfoward, a little hand-holding and somewhat flexible. What happened?

 

I was planning to send ds to cc when he is 16 or so- now I'm rethinking that!

[Harriet Vane]

I think you will find incompetent people anywhere you go.

 

When I was at a four-year university I had both well-done, worthwhile classes taught by competent professors, and I had some disasters.

 

Obviously some schools are going to be better than others.

[TheLisa]

I should have re-phrased the question- because I can think of a zillion examples of incompetency at the university level.

 

I just expected cc to be more straightfoward.

[Nicole M]

I suspect it depends on the place.

 

We've had a really wonderful experience, so far, with CC. Except for the registration part, which made me think the actual mission of the school was to keep students out.

 

Keep in mind that these teachers earn very teeny tiny salaries. Not that this justifies incompetence, by any means, but I suspect it causes frustration. The quality of teaching we have seen is very high.

 

I have several friends who have taught or are teaching at the CC where my son is a student. One dear friend of mine told me that of all the places she has taught, the students at this 2 year college were far superior to the ones at the very-expensive, private four year college where I happen to work. Her feeling was that the kids at the CC were there because they wanted to be, not because they were expected to be. And on the whole, they worked much harder. My friend jokingly said that her "average" student is a single mom of four working two jobs and on the waiting list for a transplant. Her point was that her students were overcoming huge obstacles simply to show up every day.

[klmama]

My dh, who already had a BA, decided to go into a new field and had to take courses at a CC to get a certificate for that field. He was required to take a course that had actually been part of his BA major. He asked to get out of taking the course, but his request was denied because the formal course description didn't exactly match anything on his transcript, even though the actual coursework was very basic compared to what he had done.

 

The instructor knew he hadn't wanted to take the class and found fault with all of his work in the class. Finally, he decided to play the game and went to her to ask what he needed to do to improve his grade. He jumped through her hoops and finally got his A. That approach might work with the prof for the subject he knows well.

 

It might also help with the calc prof, if the young man is able to speak respectfully without letting his frustration show. Maybe the prof might be willing to give him an opportunity to improve his grade somehow if he went to him and explained his concern about how the missed quiz will affect his grade - no accusations, no complaining, just concern.

[G5052]

Like the others, I encountered that type of thing in the selective-admission state colleges I attended, both in undergraduate and graduate work. So it's not just CC.

 

That said, community colleges in some states have very high standards. I've taught for nine years part-time for a state system that is one of the best in the country, and I'm monitored very closely, held to very high standards, and must teach to the same goals-and-objectives that the 4-year schools here do. The type of thing you describe wouldn't fly for long at the college where I work.

 

A lot depends on how the state views the CC's and how much coordination is done with the 4-years. Top-notch students here who pick their classes carefully actually get full transfer privileges to the top-name schools and can qualify for scholarships specifically for transferring CC students. That's not true everywhere.

[Ellie]

Not in our experience. Both of my dds graduated from a c.c. There were some bad teachers but mostly good ones. Many c.c. teachers are moonlighting university teachers (even though older dd calls it "high school with cigarettes," lol). She said she didn't see a whole lot of difference when she transferred to San Jose State, other than having longer papers to write.

[cathmom]

I had both bad and good professors at both CC and 4 year college.

[lighthouseacademy]

(even though older dd calls it "high school with cigarettes," lol).

:lol::lol::lol: I went to cc before university. I graduated in the top 10 in my class with over a 4.0 but due to various circumstances had to go to the cc. I used to call it "High School with Ashtrays" or "13th grade." Usually I called it the former. Anyway, I found that the night classes were better and less frustrating. I had some amazing teachers at the cc that also taught at the university (even using the same syllabus and forgetting to cross of the university course number!) and I had some awful teachers in both places. I had one in the cc who promised that she didn't weigh tests very heavily because some people didn't test well. Sadly she used the tests for 1/3 of the grade- how that wasn't heavy I have NO idea. Furthermore, information on the tests was not covered in lecture OR the texbook :svengo:. That same teacher promised I could make up all the work I missed when my grandpa died and then, when I returned I asked WEEKLY what I had missed and she promised nothing and come to find out at the end of the semester I missed an assignment that she wouldn't let me make up and therefore I had a whole grade lower. :svengo:

The trick is for the student to start asking around in classes about teachers they are considering for the next semester. Who is good and who is bad. I finally figured that out at the university and only had one or two horrible professors that I couldn't get out of having to take.

[JennifersLost]

Well, I'm a grad of an Ivy League University, and I've taken several community college classes, both in California and here in BC that were just as challenging if not more so than at the University and better taught.

 

The difference was that at my University lots of "intro" classes were taught by grad student TAs, while at the community college all my classses have been taught by professors.

 

There are a bunch of just out of high school students in my current accounting class. I wondered how they were handling the work when I was finding it hard. Well, after our first mid-term I know. The ones that were slacking off....failed.

 

This is a good reminder for me to share this info with my kids. Two years at a community college would make things much cheaper for them and us....without losing much.

[JFSinIL]

One of the best teachers I ever had was a guy from the local State U. who was picking up some extra $ teaching one evening course at the local CC on Shakespeare. Look for evening courses - that is where you will find the part-time instructors who are teaching for $ and love of their subject (I had a neighbor, too, who was an office grunt during the day - at night he taught his beloved American history at the local CC.)

 

I agree with the posters who note that intro classes at universities are often run by mere grad. students. I was one such grad. student and did not feel qualified to teach the class I was assigned (not my area of study - why, WHY make a FILM student teach RADIO and TV???!!!)

[TraceyS/FL]

I've learned that my CC was WAYYYY above average in this area. I had a far better class experience there than i did at a major university.

 

It is a feeder to 2 highly competitive CA UNiversities though, so they probably expect more (Cal Poly SLO and UCSB).

[Ellie]

:lol::lol::lol: I went to cc before university. I graduated in the top 10 in my class with over a 4.0 but due to various circumstances had to go to the cc. I used to call it "High School with Ashtrays" or "13th grade." Usually I called it the former. Anyway, I found that the night classes were better and less frustrating.

 

"Ashtrays"!!! Yes, that was what I meant! Late night, not enough tea, is my excuse, lol.

 

Another advantage to c.c. classes is that it's much easier to get the lower division classes that are needed for the 4-yr. degree. And classes are smaller.

[Renee in NC]

I had both good and bad professors at each of these: CC, state school, and private liberal arts school. However, my experience (both mine 13 years ago and my dh's more recently) is that the CC college classes and the state school classes didn't hold a candle to the liberal arts college classes in terms of academic content and performance expectations. When I started at the small LAS, I was told that 90% of their cc transfers "flunked out". I believe it - I went from an easu 4.0 at the CC to a 2.7 at the LAS. I did manage to bring it up, but the differences were HUGE.

[lighthouseacademy]

I had both good and bad professors at each of these: CC, state school, and private liberal arts school. However, my experience (both mine 13 years ago and my dh's more recently) is that the CC college classes and the state school classes didn't hold a candle to the liberal arts college classes in terms of academic content and performance expectations. When I started at the small LAS, I was told that 90% of their cc transfers "flunked out". I believe it - I went from an easu 4.0 at the CC to a 2.7 at the LAS. I did manage to bring it up, but the differences were HUGE.

I guess it really depends on where you go to the CC. I found the rigor and expectations in general to be about the same- except that the university I went to was on quarters and the cc was on semesters so the speed was different. I actually did MUCH better at the U than at the CC.

[Renee in NC]

I guess it really depends on where you go to the CC. I found the rigor and expectations in general to be about the same- except that the university I went to was on quarters and the cc was on semesters so the speed was different. I actually did MUCH better at the U than at the CC.

 

True - I only know the rigor of the CC I went to and the one my dh went to. It may also have been the rigor of the LAC and/or the particular classes I took. The classes at the state u I attended were pretty bad, but I haven't compared them to classes at UNC, for example.

[Tracey in TX]

In my experience community colleges are barely a step beyond high school. I attended for 2yrs and found the work less challenging. Instructors were typically not professors, but stopped at the master's degree. There were a few whom I hold in high academic regard. The others wouldn't be allowed to teach my children at the elementary school level.

[jayfromcleveland]

It's been almost 30 years since I was at CC so maybe things are different now, but I had a wonderful experience. The profs were excellent and very accessible, moreso than my later experience at the university. Being in the science program, most of my profs were engineers or professional scientists who made the jump.

 

Nearly all the students were older, serious learners looking for a second chance, having goofed up their high school years and not starting college "on time." There were some clowns going to "13th grade," but those were mainly a clique that was easily avoided.

 

I'm planning on sending my kids to CC when they reach 16, and even if the quality is low, it will still be cheap credits that will count toward high school and their degree.

[percytruffle]

It really depends on the state and the college.

 

Both of my dc attend the local cc. Dd is almost finished with her 2-year degree and will most likely transfer to Cornell as a Biology major. All of her credits will transfer and she will go in as a junior. The cc system here is NY is pretty regulated and has transfer agreements with many four-year schools both public ad private. Her profs have been fabulous and the cc experience has afforded her the opportunity to work for the college as a tutor and a lab assistant. She is also a member of Phi Theta Kappa (honor society of tw-year colleges) which will earn her bucks in scholarship money when she transfers. We have saved tons by sending here to the cc first and the experience has been great. Ds is just getting started there with two classes per semester this year (his senior hs year). He is doing well also and is looking forward to attending full time next year. Both have had profs who were well educated themselves (at least a masters and some a doctorate) and who were also good teachers, willing to make themselves available during office hours, etc. The student body has been a mix. There are some exceptional students there and some slackers as you would expect. I would choose the same route for my dc again given the choice.

[titianmom]

I'm sharing the experiences of a local h-s graduate, who is now at cc. He made the transition to being on their schedule, following the rules,etc, and it seems he can't win. Is this common?

 

His calc prof is always late, very disorganized, and changes the schedule on his whim. For example, the quiz was supposed to be Mon. The student was sick on Fri, missed that class, and what do you know, the prof decides to give the quiz EARLY, and will not give a make-up! Next week, the test was supposed to be MON, the prof "forgot," just started teaching until someone finally asked, "Isn't there a test today?" He said oops and put it off until later that week. This prof also will not give any partial credit- if you miss a step, the whole thing is wrong!

 

Another teacher is in his own world- actually I think he is jealous that this kid knows as much as he does. So my student friend wrote the longest paper in class, participates in discussion, always knows the answer, and is getting a low B. He saw some of the other papers- most did not even include the req. citations, and they received better grades. I did not read his paper, but he does know how to write a paper and he knows the subject.

 

I could go on. I know college profs can be a little "off" but this is CC. Most cc classes I had were like High School Part 2. Straightfoward, a little hand-holding and somewhat flexible. What happened?

 

I was planning to send ds to cc when he is 16 or so- now I'm rethinking that!

 

Sorry you're having such a lousy experience. My CC was fantastic and I *still* remember the teachers and classes that I took. Very rewarding. And I'm 47, BTW. (Anne Arundel CC in MD)

 

The U? Sheesh. Some classes and instructors were good, but overall, I learned more at the CC. I'll tell you about my Database class at the U. WHAT A WASTE of money...the final exam was open book and the ans were in the back of the book. You get the idea...the teacher did nothing but read from the book.

 

Kim

[Mekanamom]

Not in our experience. Both of my dds graduated from a c.c. There were some bad teachers but mostly good ones. Many c.c. teachers are moonlighting university teachers (even though older dd calls it "high school with cigarettes," lol). She said she didn't see a whole lot of difference when she transferred to San Jose State, other than having longer papers to write.

 

Did they go to DeAnza? That's one of the better CC's! When I attended CC, the trick was to take evening classes. It was much more like college with older students who were taking classes after work. The morning classes were not much different than high school.

[Kanga]

I agree with what Jenniferslost said! Meant to quote her, but something went wrong.

 

My dd did not have a bad teacher at the CC, but she has had less than wonderful TA's at her University.

 

My advice for finding a good teacher where ever you attend:

 

1. Pray

2. Look at any online resources the teacher has (often you can find a web page or syllabus online)

3. Go to the book store and compare the books that the various professors are using for the same class

4. Ask other students why or why not they don't like a teacher. Don't rule out teachers that other students don't like until you know why. Maybe they prefer to write papers and the teachers weigh the grade towards tests or vice a versa. What one students dislikes another student might appreciate.

5. If there is no way around taking a class from a bad teacher, realize that you are in the same boat as the other students and do the best you can with the situation you are given.

[katilac]

Okay, all these cc threads have me checking out our local site, and something on the tuition page amused me endlessly: they charge a separate "academic excellency" fee.

 

what the -? if you aren't interested in academic excellence, can you skip this fee? "No, thanks, academic mediocrity is fine with me!"

 

:lol:

[Danestress]

and had great professors and less great ones, but no really awful ones. There were slackers students, but also highly motivated ambitious ones, and very few who could get in that particular university without being pretty good students in high school unless they were wonderful athletes.

 

Years later I took an astronomy class at a highly rated CC. The professor was *amazing.* The students were truly pathetic. They were just awful - lazy, seemingly stupid, and not interested in the material regardless of how good the professor was. I just couldn't believe that anyone could fail the tests, which weren't not hard if you mastered the material (and why take the class if you don't intend to master the material?) When he would plan optional trips to an observatory, I think three students showed up. Really pathetic and it would not have been that way at my University (though I realize that there are also pretty second rate Universities out there).

 

I wouldn't trade a really top rated U for a CC. But there are plenty of Universities that take the lower ranking students. So I guess it depends on what you are comparing.

 

In any case, based on that one experience, I would take more CC classes IF it weren't for the students! The professor was fine.

[calandalsmom]

My worst collegiate experiences were at William and Mary where the professors, without exception, were disinterested and at times cruel.

 

My best were at the University of Cincinnati's night college classes at Raymond Walters, the cc associated with UC.

 

I dont think any generalizations can be made.

[Sasharowan]

DH and I have been to 2 different CCs. Between the two of us we have had 3 incompetent teachers. One kept no showing class because he had theater rehearsals (DH ENG 101), one had severe lupus that was affecting her judgement and she left mid-semester and the new teacher had to re-grade the first half of the semester (DH, forget class), and then I had a Physics for NON- science majors class that I ended up with an A for a 75% grade. He totally confused us and then graded on a major curve.

[LizzyBee]

You could check http://www.ratemyprofessors.com to try to find the better professors in the cc.

[Liz CA]

Where we used to live, there is a junior college who is known for their excellency in math/science. Dh completed his first two years there and when he got to math classes at a 4-year university, he found them easy.

 

It really depends on the college and the cadre of faculty.

If you have second thoughts about this particular college, perhaps you can find another one with a better reputation? One would think that there is a certain standard to be found at those institutions but this is sadly not always the case.

[Sahamamama]

I think there are two issues here. First, your student-friend's situation and what he might do about it; and secondly, your main query -- Are CCs of lower quality than 4yr schools?

 

To answer your main question first, I think that college is probably always a mixed bag. I went to a local 4 year school for the first 2 years, and had some professors that acted the same as your friend's calc prof. Some didn't even show up to class, and some couldn't teach their way out of a bag. At the same school, my sister had one math teacher who decided that since most of the students in the class didn't have English as their first language, he might as well teach the class in Mandarin. It was not fun, being a new college student, trying to learn the course content and still having to learn the college culture, but that's part of college life, I think.

 

For my last 2 years of college I went to Evangel University -- :party:three cheers for my alma mater -- and LOVED it. Most of my profs there were prepared, caring, responsible, and able to teach well. There were still a few duds, but overall, the quality of teaching and learning was FAR superior to the (higher rated) 4 year school I first attended. When I went to grad school :ack2: -- I will not say where -- the teachers were okay, I suppose, but then the school itself had issues.

 

All that to say, I think your friend should tackle college as follows:

 

1. Learn from other students who the BOMB profs are, and avoid them like the plague. They don't change from course to course, they slack all over the place. So don't expect miracles from this calc prof in the next course. If a student can work around these losers, so much the better.

 

2. Converse to this, learn from other students who the OUTSTANDING profs are, and take as many classes from these teachers as will fit into your program.

 

3. File a complaint or feedback letter in the Academic Dean's Office. I'm not kidding. They need feedback, and if it's put in polite, written form, that helps them know what profs to keep and which to cut. HTH.

[Dana]

You could check www.ratemyprofessors.com to try to find the better professors in the cc.

 

Or you'll get the really easy instructors only.

I teach at a CC part-time.

The highest-ranked instructor on RMP is one who's a good instructor in terms of being able to communicate material to students.

 

HOWEVER, he gives only take-home tests, consistently lets students out early, and passes almost everyone. Many students adore him and their comments on RMP reflect that. But then they transfer somewhere else or get a different instructor and learn that they'd just been passed along and they do NOT have the basics that they need. :glare:

 

Students I've taught who had him as a prior instructor will have a MUCH more difficult time in my class since they don't know the prior material. So RMP can give some rough ideas, but take with a HUGE SHAKER of salt.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I haven't read the other responses yet.

 

My oldest ds went to cc full time his senior year of homeschool. He was at the top of every class he was in. He complained about not being challenged and how some of the teachers gave so many chances for extra credit that you would have to be brain dead to fail, yet many did fail and drop out.

 

Fast forward. He just finished a year at a nationally recognized, academically oriented, college. He says the biggest difference for him is the other students, not the teachers. Being in classes with students who actually show up, do the work, and do it well, really motivated and challenged him. It made the classes more interesting and lively as well.

 

He got a couple of mediocre teachers in both cc and at the university. One teacher he just finished a class with never gave any tests and the final exam was three activities that were easily accomplished before class was over.

[Halftime Hope]

has been very helpful for both our local cc and the public univ where ds is a freshman. We've found that, by and large, the ratings of profs are pretty true to the experience ds has had with them, and if students rate profs highly for being easy, they're usually pretty blunt and will say so.

 

Another resource for math and science is to call the corresponding labs, ask to speak to the lab manager, and ask them for their recommendations. If you ask them for their recommendations, and not for any negative feedback, they are usually free with their opinions. :)

 

BTW, Pickaprof is only $15 for two years, less for one, and it allows a registrant to query for all colleges once you are a member, not just for one college. (IOW, I'm using our membership for two students.)

 

Also, BTW, in ds' computer science class, it was the TA who was the fantastic teacher when the prof was *gawd-awful*, so YMMV on TAs.

 

hth