How do I talk to my DH about household/life work

[lauraw4321]

without it being a fight or sounding just like more nagging.

 

My DH is one of those guys who will do what you ask. But he won't do any of the mental work of figuring out what should be done. So the mental tasks (remembering what needs to be packed in what bags, which requires which laundry to be done, which requires you start it at x time, etc.) all gets done by me. And then if I fail to communicate fully (and I mean *fully,* to the last detail) then things get dropped.

 

DH has executive function issues. I think that I have come up with some strategies to address this: like making very detailed lists for mornings when he's going to have to do the bulk of the work. The problem is that I know he's going to be defensive when we talk about it.  I'd like to have him validate the work that I do, but that's just pie in the sky, I know. At a base level, I don't require his validation, but I do require his help. We both work full time. I'm always the one dropping the ball at work to handle the home stuff. He has the bandwidth to help, I just can't rely on him to choose which stuff to do. PLUS, he feels that his mowing the lawn, taking out the trash and recycling is his "fair share" of the work. Anything else is basically viewed as a favor to me. I don't know how to make this change. I've been married 13 years. I've WAAAAY lowered my standards. The things I'm talking about aren't "sweep and mop" but rather "feed everyone breakfast" and "unload the dishwasher." The things that truly do have to be done so that we can have a functional house. 

 

Help?

[zoobie]

Would he read this? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

 

Create an actual list of all the decision making and "chores" involved from sun up to sun down?

[regentrude]

without it being a fight or sounding just like more nagging.

 

My DH is one of those guys who will do what you ask. But he won't do any of the mental work of figuring out what should be done. So the mental tasks (remembering what needs to be packed in what bags, which requires which laundry to be done, which requires you start it at x time, etc.) all gets done by me. And then if I fail to communicate fully (and I mean *fully,* to the last detail) then things get dropped.

 

DH has executive function issues. I think that I have come up with some strategies to address this: like making very detailed lists for mornings when he's going to have to do the bulk of the work. The problem is that I know he's going to be defensive when we talk about it.  I'd like to have him validate the work that I do, but that's just pie in the sky, I know. At a base level, I don't require his validation, but I do require his help. We both work full time. I'm always the one dropping the ball at work to handle the home stuff. He has the bandwidth to help, I just can't rely on him to choose which stuff to do. PLUS, he feels that his mowing the lawn, taking out the trash and recycling is his "fair share" of the work. Anything else is basically viewed as a favor to me. I don't know how to make this change. I've been married 13 years. I've WAAAAY lowered my standards. The things I'm talking about aren't "sweep and mop" but rather "feed everyone breakfast" and "unload the dishwasher." The things that truly do have to be done so that we can have a functional house. 

 

I am not entirely sure I understand. You say he will do what you aks, but not figure out what needs to be done. In that case, I would view myself as the manager of the household who has an overview over the necessary tasks, and delegate specifics.

 

I would tell him, unemotional and matter of fact, that I need more help and that I need him to do xyz, but then leave it to him to decide how to do it, and not micromanage. He may fix breakfast a different way - the important thing is that everybody gets fed. 

 

What exactly happens when you tell him to unload the dishwasher? How can that require a list? 

 

Also, do the kids help? Unloading dishes is a task an 8 y/o should be able to do.

Edited June 27, 2017 by regentrude

[HomeAgain]

I'd make it a family thing.  Sit down with the older kids and dh, making a chart of everyone's current expectations: work, school, and every chore around the house.  Then make a new chart with just work and school listed for everyone.  The rest can be divided into parent chores and child chores.  I have had checklists up around the house for various things, like, step by step washing list in the laundry room, or an index card in the bathroom with each thing that needs to be covered.  Announce that when everyone is done with school/work, the evenings are going to be splitting chores: parents each take a task, children each take a task...until the work is finished. The 3yo gets to help mommy or daddy.

 

It's the only way things can run here.  Dh and I came to conclusion that I am "off duty" when he gets home.  The house is no longer under my full responsibility. That means that after 6pm, everything is 50/50.  If he cooks, I do dishes, the 7yo clears the table.  If I do storytime, he folds laundry.

[regentrude]

It may also help to develop the culture that both adults work (on the job /at home) until the work is done and then both adults have leisure time simultaneously. If one person is still cleaning up the kitchen, the other should do necessary tasks until you both are done; it's not OK for one person to lounge about and watch the other work. That may help him get a clearer feeling for the amount of work that needs to be done.

[BusyMom5]

What are kids doing? Most can empty the dishwasher. What about making up a family schedule? That way it isn't just,about him, but more about making sure everything runs well. I do most of what you are talking g about. My DH does not help out much with household things, but I also don't work outside the home.

[freesia]

I'd make it a family thing.  Sit down with the older kids and dh, making a chart of everyone's current expectations: work, school, and every chore around the house.  Then make a new chart with just work and school listed for everyone.  The rest can be divided into parent chores and child chores.  I have had checklists up around the house for various things, like, step by step washing list in the laundry room, or an index card in the bathroom with each thing that needs to be covered.  Announce that when everyone is done with school/work, the evenings are going to be splitting chores: parents each take a task, children each take a task...until the work is finished. The 3yo gets to help mommy or daddy.

 

It's the only way things can run here.  Dh and I came to conclusion that I am "off duty" when he gets home.  The house is no longer under my full responsibility. That means that after 6pm, everything is 50/50.  If he cooks, I do dishes, the 7yo clears the table.  If I do storytime, he folds laundry.

 

We have chore charts for the kids, also.

 

Dh and I split cooking dinners. How often each of us does it, depends on the year. No one cooks and cleans up (but the kids mostly clean up now). Dh has set jobs--for instance, he grocery shops.  Whenever I get overwhelmed, we renegotiate.

 

I agree with listing all the chores so that he sees his share is not fair.  Include budgeting, car maintenance chores, taxes, etc.  But he should have regular reoccuring jobs that you don't oversea or "ask" for. 

 

This is one of my pet peeves in two parent working families.  I don't think most men are doing it on purpose. I honestly think they have no idea how unequal the load is until they experience it.  They most often had moms who did all the invisible work and then their wives took over.  But, I don't think we do our marriages a favor by letting it happen.

 

It may come down to splitting the jobs and then NOT picking up the slack if he doesn't do it and letting everyone experience the consequences--dirty clothes, late, late dinner, missed school lunch, etc.

[lauraw4321]

I am not entirely sure I understand. You say he will do what you aks, but not figure out what needs to be done. In that case, I would view myself as the manager of the household who has an overview over the necessary tasks, and delegate specifics.

 

I would tell him, unemotional and matter of fact, that I need more help and that I need him to do xyz, but then leave it to him to decide how to do it, and not micromanage. He may fix breakfast a different way - the important thing is that everybody gets fed. 

 

What exactly happens when you tell him to unload the dishwasher? How can that require a list? 

 

Also, do the kids help? Unloading dishes is a task an 8 y/o should be able to do.

 

If I ask, he unloads, and I don't micromanage.

 

Example: this morning I exercised. I asked him to get the girls up and ready for camp, and to make breakfast for them. That's all I asked. I didn't *think* to ask to unload the dishwasher because it's one of those obvious chores I would do while making breakfast. 

 

By *getting the girls ready,* he didn't ask them to get their shoes and socks on. He didn't apply sunscreen and bug spray. In his mind, getting them dressed in clothes was enough. 

 

I didn't even try to plan or delegate the task of packing their backpack because it would be too difficult to communicate it fully.

 

Who does the tasks can't remain static. Some mornings I have early meetings. Some mornings he does. Some mornings the girls have to be out of the house early. Some mornings they don't. Some mornings it can be the kids' task (it is sometimes) but some mornings it can't. The issue is that the tasks don't even appear on his radar as things to be done.

 

Sitting down and making a list of all of the chores sounds exhausting, but probably necessary.

[lauraw4321]

It may also help to develop the culture that both adults work (on the job /at home) until the work is done and then both adults have leisure time simultaneously. If one person is still cleaning up the kitchen, the other should do necessary tasks until you both are done; it's not OK for one person to lounge about and watch the other work. That may help him get a clearer feeling for the amount of work that needs to be done.

 

I don't know how to change family culture that is ingrained by 13 years of marriage.

[lauraw4321]

Would he read this? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

 

Create an actual list of all the decision making and "chores" involved from sun up to sun down?

 

I sent him this. He didn't respond. Which means he was offended or doesn't want to discuss it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I know it is frustrating as all get out that you have to ask.  I feel EXACTLY the same about not wanting to HAVE to ask.  But I do.  So I do.  And I often still resent this.  But hey it could be worse.  I could ask and have it fall on deaf ears.

 

So my advice is to ask (and scream into a pillow as needed or whatever helps). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

I don't know how to change family culture that is ingrained by 13 years of marriage.

 

Talk to him.

"Hey, I still have to clean up the kitchen/fix lunches for tomorrow/pack the girls' backpacks/run a load of laundry. I'd like to spend some time with you. Would you please do xyz, so we can then enjoy our evening time together?"

Rinse and repeat.

If you have tolerated him watchig you work for 13 years, this may take a while, but it's worth being persistent about. For the sake of the next 40 or so years.

[Miss Tick]

Maybe you need a neutral third party to act as arbiter on some of these issues? I guess that would be a marriage counselor. "Here is my list of areas that don't seem to get done without me, I can't figure out how to present this without starting a fight, hopefully Mr. Smith can give us some tools for addressing this."

 

On a positive note, I think that things will get easier as your dds get a little older and are able to do some of these things for themselves. I have been happily pleased, now that my youngest is 8, that getting ready for their camps or activities, feeding themselves, etc. My children can all do independently.

[regentrude]

Example: this morning I exercised. I asked him to get the girls up and ready for camp, and to make breakfast for them. That's all I asked. I didn't *think* to ask to unload the dishwasher because it's one of those obvious chores I would do while making breakfast. 

 

By *getting the girls ready,* he didn't ask them to get their shoes and socks on. He didn't apply sunscreen and bug spray. In his mind, getting them dressed in clothes was enough. 

 

I didn't even try to plan or delegate the task of packing their backpack because it would be too difficult to communicate it fully.

 

I don't understand the bolded. If he is of normal intelligence, why would it be too difficult to communicate what goes into their backpacks?

 

You consider unloading the dishwasher part of the breakfast routine. he doesn't. He might unload it when he has to put away dishes and realizes the clean dishes are still in there. Would he do it them? Or would he, if tasked with cleaning up, simply ignore the dishes an not empty?

 

If you know he does not see what needs to be done, make a list. Include sun screen and bug spray on the list. If he does not do this on a regular basis, he may have no idea that this is a task that belongs to "getting ready". Bug spray has never been part of our regular getting ready routine, so I can completely see how that would not cross his mind - it wouldn't occur to me either.

[Guinevere]

I wouldn't unload the dishwasher while making breakfast, and I wouldn't have bug sprayed/sunscreened the kids.  I clean up the kitchen while the kids play after breakfast, and I would apply the bug spray and sunscreen when the kids got out of the car at camp because I would want it to last as long as possible while they were there.  

 

It's ok for him to think and act differently than you, even though it is really hard when you are too tired to convey all that needs done.  

 

I think index cards with daily/weekly/monthly detailed lists are the way to go.  Then he can see all the things that are in your mind, and do them in his time and way.  

[lauraw4321]

I wouldn't unload the dishwasher while making breakfast, and I wouldn't have bug sprayed/sunscreened the kids.  I clean up the kitchen while the kids play after breakfast, and I would apply the bug spray and sunscreen when the kids got out of the car at camp because I would want it to last as long as possible while they were there.  

 

It's ok for him to think and act differently than you, even though it is really hard when you are too tired to convey all that needs done.  

 

I think index cards with daily/weekly/monthly detailed lists are the way to go.  Then he can see all the things that are in your mind, and do them in his time and way.  

 

After breakfast, we are both at work. There is no time to clean it up, unless you're doing it while cooking dinner.  Which SUCKS, but it's what I'll be doing tonight.

 

I dropped the kids off at the bus that takes them to camp. There is no other time to do it. The kids said they didn't want  us doing it at the drop off point (which is 10ish minutes away) because "it's embarrassing."

[Ravin]

When I started working F/T I had to hand over a lot of things to DH. I had to LET GO and let him run things his way. It's not the same as my way, but it gets things done.

 

Usually.

 

In your shoes, I would hand some tasks over to him. Including the "drop the ball at work" stuff. Like, alternating turns if a kid has to be picked up from school ill, or taken to an appointment, etc.

 

 

[Guinevere]

After breakfast, we are both at work. There is no time to clean it up, unless you're doing it while cooking dinner.  Which SUCKS, but it's what I'll be doing tonight.

 

I dropped the kids off at the bus that takes them to camp. There is no other time to do it. The kids said they didn't want  us doing it at the drop off point (which is 10ish minutes away) because "it's embarrassing."

My point was just that it wasn't necessarily an intuitive thing, unless you've experienced the why.

 

So, that's why the lists would be helpful.  Then you don't have to explain your whole thought process when you don't have time.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Although I often wonder what would happen if I dropped dead.  Would my DH figure this stuff out.  I think he would.  I know he would.  So what is the problem here?  I think the problem could be that maybe I don't accept the speed at which he gets to stuff or the way in which he goes about it.  (Or in fact he does take me a bit for granted.) Only once did I get a glimpse into this.  We planned to go visit his family in Germany and the kids needed new passports.  I did not want to go.  Usually I take care of these details, but since I so very very much did not want to go I ignored it.  And I wondered how long it would take until he got the ball rolling.  It took awhile, but he actually did it! 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

So, what I have found with this is that if someone is doing something that is not their "regular" job, they typically will not have a standard way of doing it. 

 

For most of it, we have particular tasks we are respomsible for, and have an intuitive or even explicit standard operating procedure (SOP) for that task.  THis allows us to make sure that it is done thougholy, similarly every time, that we don't have to use brain power to rethink the task each time.  It also makes it possible to organize tasks more efficiently because you can think in units.  So, for example, for you "laundry" may mean cleaning the clothes, drying and putting away.  You use that set of smaller tasks to organize what you need to do within the framework of your day.

 

The thing is, different people will have their own way of understanding these tasks.  For a long while, my dh only understood laundry to mean washing and drying - and he couldn't figure out why I got backed up or why his doing more laundry didn't help.  The problem was that it was the putting away aspect that was a problem and doing more washing made it worse!

 

Individuals don't necessarily conceptualize and organize tasks the same way.  And if a task is not a usual one, they will have to exert more thinking, and also may leave out things as they haven't as much practice or experience.

 

So, when you are sharing tasks, there are certain considerations.  Pretty much any time you ask someone to take on a task that is not usually their responsibility, chances are they will be less efficient and reliable - they don't have a well-developed SOP.  If it is really important something be included - like packed bag - then you may have to lay that out very specifically.  There is a cost in loss of efficiency for going outside the usual area of responsibility, and there can also be a cost in terms of being annoying by asking the person to totally adapt to your way of organizing tasks.  Most people like some ability to organize tasks their own way.

 

I think if there is a lot of call for help, not just on the odd occasion, often its a better idea to redistribute tasks or related sets of tasks.  That allows the other person to develop their own way of doing things and organize related tasks.  (so, you don't have two people doing the same thing or something being forgotten, because you organize the larger task "morning routine" differently. 

 

It can help to think about what would happen if you were asked to take over a task you don't usually do.  If my dh asked me to take the car in to have the tires changed, I might (just, for example) forget to take the tires out of the shed and put them in the car.  Because for me, that isn't what he asked me to do.

 

One-off changes are always going to mean that you have to take a loss of efficiency and probably lay out details.

 

 

ETA - And I'll add - not only getting the tires out of the shed, but getting them changed, is also totally not on my radar.  I would not "notice" it needs to be done and I should act.  It's not part of my job to organize that, just like it isn't dh's job to make sure there is stuff for packed lunches.  I assume he is organizing those things in his own way as he assumes about my jobs.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bluegoat

[J-rap]

It sounds like he also might have some gender based ideas about housework etc. that he probably isn't even consciously thinking about.  So, when you ask him to help get your kids ready for camp, it really doesn't even occur to him that he should be digging into the details of it and going above and beyond the minimal necessary -- because he is simply helping you out, that's all.  It's not really his job to do that.  And his subconscious ideas on this have never been challenged.

 

If you were to talk to him, not aggressively or accusingly at all, but just very clearly explaining how you both work X amount of hours outside of the home and these (show him a list) are things that need to be done daily around the house that both of you need to do and how can you split them, how does he react?  If he really does't get it and acts defensively, then I think it's time for a third party to step in.

Edited June 27, 2017 by J-rap

[Plink]

Read Honey Are You Listening.  It is written specifically about ADD, but there are a lot of EF issues that are addressed. http://amzn.to/2tjeouh

[BarbecueMom]

I started telling myself that it's okay to WANT to beat intuition into him, even if it's not reasonable. That it's okay to NOT WANT to spell out every single task detail, even if it'll be missed if I don't, or absolutely has to be done anyway.

 

Giving myself permission to feel "management weary", instead of swinging between "get over it" and "stressful micromanaging", helps a lot. I try not to bottle it up until I explode or nag everyone else into doing things my way.

 

I flat out told DH the other I felt unjustifiably resentful for doing things that he physically could not do (injuries and illness). Then we laughed about it and moved on and got stuff done, together. So much better than passive agression, silent treatment, stewing, or pushing him beyond his capabilities. Or the, "I don't care if you can do it, do it anyway!" I've yelled at pretty much everyone here before in a fit of frustration.

[happi duck]

I might delete this so please don't quote:

 

Op, I understand!

 

Ime, it is exhausting having to do all the mental work. No one taught me step-by-step what to do and I find it frustrating when others, though willing to do a task, won't don't the mental work. (This is true in other venues not just home)

 

An example:

Having an evening meeting and coming home late to dh and small DC who have not had dinner.

Next evening meeting "make sure you and the kids eat dinner" Come home late to find they snacked and did not have an actual meal.

Next evening meeting "make pasta with jarred sauce and a salad for dinner while I'm gone.". Come home late to a fed family but dirty kitchen.

 

I understand we all have different skills and strengths but it gets exhausting!!

 

I don't want to be the "manager" but even if I did I don't want to deal with someone who is grumpy when I explain xyz.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I'm a SAHM, but I work from home, homeschool, and care for the entire house, all its finances, and everything and everyone in it at pretty much all times. We've had to have a similar conversation about how I'm expected to interact with the family on DH's days off (which are my primary work days). 

 

I waited until a calm, neutral moment and I told him that we needed to talk about some home management-related stuff. I immediately said, please don't feel defensive, because this isn't about "what he's doing wrong," it was about what the household needed from both of us. He did still feel a bit like I was reprimanding him--I don't think there's a way around that--but I kept reiterating that I wasn't mad at him and bringing this up. I was bringing it up because I felt like he wasn't able to see certain things, and that we, together, needed to find a different path. He was still a little huffy, but I stayed very calm, and a little later he wasn't mad anymore and has been more respectful of my work (both paid and unpaid) at home ever since. 

 

Some things will never change (recycling items, unrinsed and placed on the counter ABOVE the recycling bin, for example  :banghead: ), but others did change for the better. It sounds like it will be an ongoing conversation for you, and yes, you will probably have to put extra work into scaffolding some things, like the lists for the backpacks and lists for what needs to be done to get the kids ready for camp. But it should get steadily better if he's willing to work with you on it. If he's not, then I agree that an objective third party (marriage counselor) could very well be the way to go. 

 

More  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: . I totally get how hard is it to be both the brain and the engine for the entire household. I'm wearing out on it right now too, and I don't WOH full time!

[lauraw4321]

I don't understand the bolded. If he is of normal intelligence, why would it be too difficult to communicate what goes into their backpacks?

 

You consider unloading the dishwasher part of the breakfast routine. he doesn't. He might unload it when he has to put away dishes and realizes the clean dishes are still in there. Would he do it them? Or would he, if tasked with cleaning up, simply ignore the dishes an not empty?

 

If you know he does not see what needs to be done, make a list. Include sun screen and bug spray on the list. If he does not do this on a regular basis, he may have no idea that this is a task that belongs to "getting ready". Bug spray has never been part of our regular getting ready routine, so I can completely see how that would not cross his mind - it wouldn't occur to me either.

 

Re backpacks: One kid needed one kind of water shoe, one kid needed a different kind. One kid wanted more sunscreen to apply, the other didn't. One kid needed some cash, the other didn't. Too many details to try to succinctly explain.

 

Re dishwasher: He would unload it then, but I'll have to hand wash stuff tonight to use to cook dinner.

 

Re bugspray: He applied it yesterday. We discussed why they needed it. We discussed which kind to apply. He was fully aware that this was a task to be done, but probably needed reminding. Or in other words, needed me to explicitly ask him. 

[Elizabeth86]

If I knew I'd tell ya. My dh wouldnt even get out of bed until I woke up to make coffee for him. He tosses his clothes in the direction if the hamper. He works, I dont so I bite my tongue. He comes home fro. work, naps in the chair while I make dinner that he sleeps through. I take the kids out to play. He wakes up around bath time and spends that whole time waking up again. Right as it is time to get them to go to bed, he thinks its a good idea to watch a movie. So I dont know it always sounds like nagging to me, so I need to read these replys too.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Re backpacks: One kid needed one kind of water shoe, one kid needed a different kind. One kid wanted more sunscreen to apply, the other didn't. One kid needed some cash, the other didn't. Too many details to try to succinctly explain.

 

Re dishwasher: He would unload it then, but I'll have to hand wash stuff tonight to use to cook dinner.

 

Re bugspray: He applied it yesterday. We discussed why they needed it. We discussed which kind to apply. He was fully aware that this was a task to be done, but probably needed reminding. Or in other words, needed me to explicitly ask him. 

 

This is why lists are so helpful. I'll be honest and say that it takes a very long time for me to learn new routines. I will always forget some critical aspect of it until I've done it/been reminded of it 5-6 times. And like someone else mentioned, unless you've been on the process since the beginning and have a full understanding of the "why" of it all, it's even harder. The change can't/won't happen overnight.

 

Which doesn't make it any easier, I know. Oh, believe me, I know! But it will take a little effort in communication and support materials before it starts to really kick in. Probably right when camp is done and school will start again! But then you'll know to make the lists right away and go from there. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Bluegoat]

This is why lists are so helpful. I'll be honest and say that it takes a very long time for me to learn new routines. I will always forget some critical aspect of it until I've done it/been reminded of it 5-6 times. And like someone else mentioned, unless you've been on the process since the beginning and have a full understanding of the "why" of it all, it's even harder. The change can't/won't happen overnight.

 

Which doesn't make it any easier, I know. Oh, believe me, I know! But it will take a little effort in communication and support materials before it starts to really kick in. Probably right when camp is done and school will start again! But then you'll know to make the lists right away and go from there. 

 

I think related to this - some tasks are complicated enough, or change enough, that saring them is difficult.  In that case it can sometimes work to share a different task instead, one that is simpler, or less critical if there is an omission.

[regentrude]

Re backpacks: One kid needed one kind of water shoe, one kid needed a different kind. One kid wanted more sunscreen to apply, the other didn't. One kid needed some cash, the other didn't. Too many details to try to succinctly explain.

 

You managed to explain them to us jst fine now. 

If items vary from day to day, I'd probably scribble on a post it even for myself:

Child A: shoes X. $$. 

Child B: shoes y. extra sunscreen (I would get a small bottle to live in the pack permanently)

 

I would also assume the 6 and 8 year old would be capable of packing their own back packs and make sure they have what they want/need. 

 

If the backpack thing really was too complex, have him do something else and pack the backpacks in the evening yourself.

Edited June 27, 2017 by regentrude

[zoobie]

Re backpacks: One kid needed one kind of water shoe, one kid needed a different kind. One kid wanted more sunscreen to apply, the other didn't. One kid needed some cash, the other didn't. Too many details to try to succinctly explain.

 

Re dishwasher: He would unload it then, but I'll have to hand wash stuff tonight to use to cook dinner.

 

Re bugspray: He applied it yesterday. We discussed why they needed it. We discussed which kind to apply. He was fully aware that this was a task to be done, but probably needed reminding. Or in other words, needed me to explicitly ask him.

How old are your kids? Can they start packing themselves?

 

Big whiteboard in your kitchen area where you can jot down the details for the kids (who should be taking on the responsibilities) and DH can supervise them?

 

It is exhausting. I don't work and am just done being the adult in charge of everything. I keep explaining and explaining that I fantasize about being divorced just so 50% of the time, it's not my problem. Or running away. Far, far away.

[lauraw4321]

You managed to explain them to us jst fine now. 

If items vary from day to day, I'd probably scribble on a post it even for myself:

Child A: shoes X. $$. 

Child B: shoes y. extra sunscreen (I would get a small bottle to live in the pack permanently)

 

I would also assume the 6 and 8 year old would be capable of packing their own back packs and make sure they have what they want/need. 

8 y.o. also has ADD/executive function issues. Is basically a tiny clone of her father. So no. 

 

I think what is happening is that I have very good short-term memory, executive function, and so I don't need external assistance or scaffolding. And I still haven't fully accepted the fact that others might. And this thread is helping me remember and re-learn that. So... yeah. Lots of lists.

[regentrude]

Another thought:

I found it very helpful to always had a clear division of labor. All child related stuff was mine to oversee. That did not mean that DH would not help, just that *I* was the person who knew who had to be where at what time with what supplies for what purpose. Which curriculum  to use for homeschooling, when to get doctor and dental checkups. Mine are also all food related tasks; I know what to buy where, what to cook - he is happy to assist when given clear instructions ("buy apples, cream cheese and coffee", not: "go to the grocery store and shop").

 

In turn, DH is responsible for finances, car maintenance, house maintenance, travel. I will help there when specifically instructed, but he is the one who knows and decides what needs to be done when and how. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by regentrude

[happi duck]

My addition that I won't delete:

 

I have found it useful to use two different words:

assistance and help.

 

Assistance is tasks like "please take out the trash".

 

Help involves the things that take mental energy and the things that I am blind to like "I am overwhelmed and need help with meal planning.". This would be researching ideas, brainstorming ideas not me explaining how to list meals on a calendar, kwim?

 

Hth

 

(Hugs)

[QueenCat]

If I ask, he unloads, and I don't micromanage.

 

Example: this morning I exercised. I asked him to get the girls up and ready for camp, and to make breakfast for them. That's all I asked. I didn't *think* to ask to unload the dishwasher because it's one of those obvious chores I would do while making breakfast. 

 

By *getting the girls ready,* he didn't ask them to get their shoes and socks on. He didn't apply sunscreen and bug spray. In his mind, getting them dressed in clothes was enough. 

 

I didn't even try to plan or delegate the task of packing their backpack because it would be too difficult to communicate it fully.

 

Who does the tasks can't remain static. Some mornings I have early meetings. Some mornings he does. Some mornings the girls have to be out of the house early. Some mornings they don't. Some mornings it can be the kids' task (it is sometimes) but some mornings it can't. The issue is that the tasks don't even appear on his radar as things to be done.

 

Sitting down and making a list of all of the chores sounds exhausting, but probably necessary.

 

I get most of the above but if someone asked me to take care of breakfast, it would not have occurred to me that they expected me to unload the dishwasher. I would expect the dirty dishes in or near sink at that point in the day. Especially while also supervising the kids getting ready. Sunscreen isn't a normal part of getting ready in the morning so I'd probably specify that if it was needed.

 

[Bluegoat]

Another thought:

I found it very helpful to always had a clear division of labor. All child related stuff was mine to oversee. That did not mean that DH would not help, just that *I* was the person who knew who had to be where at what time with what supplies for what purpose. Which curriculum  to use for homeschooling, when to get doctor and dental checkups. Mine are also all food related tasks; I know what to buy where, what to cook - he is happy to assist when given clear instructions ("buy apples, cream cheese and coffee", not: "go to the grocery store and shop").

 

In turn, DH is responsible for finances, car maintenance, house maintenance, travel. I will help there when specifically instructed, but he is the one who knows and decides what needs to be done when and how. 

 

YES!

 

This is something I find gets complained about - the organizational burden - without people understanding that it is very complicated to share that around the same tasks.  If the division is unfair or not working, you can change it.  But to try and share the same tasks is not likely to work.

 

Even when my dh worked away for half the year, it was tricky to shift "his" tasks back and forth.

 

And when you give up that organizational task, you do really have to let the other person take it on, largely as they see fit.  Sometimes it is hard to do that with a job you think should be done a certain way.

[lauraw4321]

I am curious, what is the reason that your DH didn't know that different kids need different things in their backpacks?

 

They told me these things when I picked them up from the camp pick up spot yesterday. He wasn't in the car. I didn't relay it.

[Susan in TX]

If I were you, I would quit my job and be a SAHM. Taking care of the house and kids is a full time job by itself. But that probably isn't something you can or want to do. So what if you just stopped doing certain things? Like unloading the dishwasher. What would happen if you just left it? Eventually he would notice the dishes piling up everywhere and the lack of clean dishes and then what? Would he take care of it?

 

I think often the problem that we run into with husbands that don't pull their weight at home is that they simply don't view the work as their responsibility. It isn't their problem if it doesn't get done. So to change that you need to think of a way to make it his responsibility which means not stepping in and doing it if he doesn't. It also might mean tolerating a different standard of cleanliness or kids getting a sunburn because he forgot to put sunscreen on them.

 

Susan in TX

[BarbecueMom]

Another thought:

I found it very helpful to always had a clear division of labor. All child related stuff was mine to oversee. That did not mean that DH would not help, just that *I* was the person who knew who had to be where at what time with what supplies for what purpose. Which curriculum to use for homeschooling, when to get doctor and dental checkups. Mine are also all food related tasks; I know what to buy where, what to cook - he is happy to assist when given clear instructions ("buy apples, cream cheese and coffee", not: "go to the grocery store and shop").

 

In turn, DH is responsible for finances, car maintenance, house maintenance, travel. I will help there when specifically instructed, but he is the one who knows and decides what needs to be done when and how.

The problem is when there is a shake up in the status quo (at home parent returning to work, home to public school, adding more kids, etc.), but the "roles" and duties are still being hammered out. OP returned to work about a year ago, yes? At the same time, the kids still need to eat, have clothes, have appointments made, etc.

 

For instance, DH has always taken care of the yard. Except... he's been injured or sick for the past year and a half. After a spine surgery and major illness, we thought he'd be good to mow the yard. He likes to mow, and was actually glad to have this task again.

 

Then he badly sprained his ankle a couple months ago. ER, meds, orthopedist, crutches, physical therapy. Time time time money money money. Back to me doing everything when all he could do was heal and go to work.

 

I mowed the front yard the other day, then texted my brother to see if he could do the back (mower is not self propelled and I almost backward mowed over my 5' self on a hill). I told DH I was a bit resentful that I had to even *think* about the yard *again*, even though it was me and my own brother taking care of it. He grilled and cooked all weekend, so it's not like he sat around and did nothing. It's not like DH tried to get hurt, but I was still frustrated at the situation. It was a tipping point.

 

I told him my irrational feelings (which is hard for me as an INTJ because all feelings are irrational, lol) and we moved on. Better than waiting until PMS gets to me and exploding on him for stuff he doesn't even remember.

[BusyMom5]

In my house, the bags, shoes and clothes would have been packed or laid out the night before. I have 5 kids, mornings are just breakfast, fixing hair, and making sure teeth are brushed. Everything that can be done the night before is. I would have had the sunscreen and bug spray laid out, and my kids would hsve known they needed it put on. We are going somewhere timorrow. Library books will be loaded tonight. Anything that needs to go into the car will be by the door or already loaded. I will have s list that has reminders at the top on the table of anything that needs done before we leave. Stops for the day on the right, grocery list on the left. My kids know the routine, and so does my DH. If he wants something, it needs to be on my list in the right spot. My 14 year old put her meds on the list this morning, and I've ordered thrm. Her library books are packed since she won't be home tonight. I find routines like this s lifesaver, so much so I don't even realize I have them until I read things like this. If the dishwasher needed emptied, that would havw been at the top if my paper.

[lauraw4321]

Ok, that makes sense.  But, it seems like you are including his inability to pack the backs in your frustration.  You specifically list "remembering what needs to be packed in what bags" in your examples in your first post.  And then you say in a later post that you didn't even try to relate the task of packing the bags because it would be "too complicated." 

 

The thing is....he can't be expected to know how to do XYZ task if he wasn't ever told what is required.  By him not being there to hear the information as it was given, and you choosing not to relay it, you by default took ownership of the task of "remembering what needs to be packed in what bags, which requires laundry to be done, which requires you to start it at x time."  You silently took responsibility for the task without ever telling him about it. 

 

I understand that your question includes more than just the back pack issue.  But since you used it in your examples, that's why I am using it as an example.  If you are doing this sort of thing with the back pack, are you doing it with other things that are also frustrating you? 

 

Yes, this is precisely what I'm trying to convey. I silently took this responsibility and didn't expect him to do it. Which means I took on the task of laundry, etc., everything that you listed. I silently take responsibility of millions of things. He never hears about or knows about those things. I was not mad that he didn't do that.  My question was, how do I go about discussing (and hopefully delegating) some of those invisible tasks, without it being a fight or being nagging.

 

He doesn't understand why I would be put out that he didn't make the girls get on their shoes and socks and put on the sunscreen and bugspray. Because he doesn't understand that when I have to use time to do those things, it takes away the time from packing the backpacks and french braiding hair - the tasks that I didn't delegate or communicate about. Which means that I end up late to work. I need to figure out how to explain to him about the work I do that he doesn't know about or see, and how that takes up my time, and that when I delegate tasks (and I will start to be more complete in my instructions) it isn't so that I can *avoid* doing work, it is so I can do the other work that I don't delegate.

 

There are 52 things to do, I delegate 12 of them. He doesn't know about the other 40. He does 6 of the 52 and doesn't see what the problem is. Because he doesn't see that there are actually 52 to do.  

 

Did that make any sense?

[lauraw4321]

In my house, the bags, shoes and clothes would have been packed or laid out the night before. I have 5 kids, mornings are just breakfast, fixing hair, and making sure teeth are brushed. Everything that can be done the night before is. I would have had the sunscreen and bug spray laid out, and my kids would hsve known they needed it put on. We are going somewhere timorrow. Library books will be loaded tonight. Anything that needs to go into the car will be by the door or already loaded. I will have s list that has reminders at the top on the table of anything that needs done before we leave. Stops for the day on the right, grocery list on the left. My kids know the routine, and so does my DH. If he wants something, it needs to be on my list in the right spot. My 14 year old put her meds on the list this morning, and I've ordered thrm. Her library books are packed since she won't be home tonight. I find routines like this s lifesaver, so much so I don't even realize I have them until I read things like this. If the dishwasher needed emptied, that would havw been at the top if my paper.

 

I really like this and I will try to work on this. 

 

Part of the problem is that my 3 year old requires me to lie down with her every night until she falls asleep. 4/7 nights I fall asleep as well, so I lose all productive night hours after 8 p.m.

[kbutton]

This book: https://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Coaster-Someone-Attention-Disorder/dp/0981548709

 

Counseling with an ADHD literate counselor who wants to help you problem solve, not blame one side or the other is helpful (though it's a slog--I'll be honest).

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

It's very likely that your DH got this from one or both of his parents (just like your DD got it from him), so his blueprint for things is just going to be different--it is very true that lots of organize things differently from one another or need more or less instruction to do so. But neurotypical people with neurotypical parents do, indeed, usually get some instruction and help growing up that forms a blueprint for a range of "typical" ways of doing things. Even the stuff that is caught vs. taught is different. It's a whole different ballgame with ADHD. Even if his parents are neurotypical, he might not have caught things that they worked to teach.

 

For me, the biggest help is being heard and not being marginalized for being neurotypical. It's not okay to feel less, or feel like a nag, or hear "You're too...!" every time you ask for something "normal" from a spouse. It's okay to feel very let down that you don't have a typical level of support from a spouse. Adults should have some ability to self-monitor and to accept feedback. It really feels so much better to hear, "I'm sorry this takes extra time on your part, but could you please tell me again how to do xyz?" instead of being told you're too picky, ruining their zen, making them feel pressured (as if you don't feel like the whole world will fall apart if you don't keep your finger in the dike!!!), etc. Even neutral responses feel "less than" when you are working so dang hard to keep body and soul together day after day. 

 

I think people with ADHD frequently have hidden anxiety, and that doesn't help.

 

Those are the things that we've found helpful for taking on with a counselor. It's been pretty ugly, but we've gotten to a place of hope. I hear there are support groups for spouses of people with ADHD. I bet they could be great or be a gripe session, but it might be worth trying to find one that is positive and supportive.

[lauraw4321]

This book: https://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Coaster-Someone-Attention-Disorder/dp/0981548709

 

Counseling with an ADHD literate counselor who wants to help you problem solve, not blame one side or the other is helpful (though it's a slog--I'll be honest).

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

It's very likely that your DH got this from one or both of his parents (just like your DD got it from him), so his blueprint for things is just going to be different--it is very true that lots of organize things differently from one another or need more or less instruction to do so. But neurotypical people with neurotypical parents do, indeed, usually get some instruction and help growing up that forms a blueprint for a range of "typical" ways of doing things. Even the stuff that is caught vs. taught is different. It's a whole different ballgame with ADHD. Even if his parents are neurotypical, he might not have caught things that they worked to teach.

 

For me, the biggest help is being heard and not being marginalized for being neurotypical. It's not okay to feel less, or feel like a nag, or hear "You're too...!" every time you ask for something "normal" from a spouse. It's okay to feel very let down that you don't have a typical level of support from a spouse. Adults should have some ability to self-monitor and to accept feedback. It really feels so much better to hear, "I'm sorry this takes extra time on your part, but could you please tell me again how to do xyz?" instead of being told you're too picky, ruining their zen, making them feel pressured (as if you don't feel like the whole world will fall apart if you don't keep your finger in the dike!!!), etc. Even neutral responses feel "less than" when you are working so dang hard to keep body and soul together day after day. 

 

I think people with ADHD frequently have hidden anxiety, and that doesn't help.

 

Those are the things that we've found helpful for taking on with a counselor. It's been pretty ugly, but we've gotten to a place of hope. I hear there are support groups for spouses of people with ADHD. I bet they could be great or be a gripe session, but it might be worth trying to find one that is positive and supportive.

 

This comment was extremely helpful.  Thank you.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, this is precisely what I'm trying to convey. I silently took this responsibility and didn't expect him to do it. Which means I took on the task of laundry, etc., everything that you listed. I silently take responsibility of millions of things. He never hears about or knows about those things. I was not mad that he didn't do that.  My question was, how do I go about discussing (and hopefully delegating) some of those invisible tasks, without it being a fight or being nagging.

 

He doesn't understand why I would be put out that he didn't make the girls get on their shoes and socks and put on the sunscreen and bugspray. Because he doesn't understand that when I have to use time to do those things, it takes away the time from packing the backpacks and french braiding hair - the tasks that I didn't delegate or communicate about. Which means that I end up late to work. I need to figure out how to explain to him about the work I do that he doesn't know about or see, and how that takes up my time, and that when I delegate tasks (and I will start to be more complete in my instructions) it isn't so that I can *avoid* doing work, it is so I can do the other work that I don't delegate.

 

There are 52 things to do, I delegate 12 of them. He doesn't know about the other 40. He does 6 of the 52 and doesn't see what the problem is. Because he doesn't see that there are actually 52 to do.  

 

Did that make any sense?

Sometimes I think to start with this, you first need to sit down and actually think about the whole routine and why it is the way it is, and what the tasks are. Even write them down.

 

Until you have a clear idea, it's tricky to see how to redistribute jobs.  And some things (like pick-up and bag packing) maybe are related enough to go together.

 

Also, you may have to ask your husband about his jobs that you may not see. 

 

Then pin-point things like choke points, or where one person seems to have an unfair burden, and talk about how to make it more fair/efficient.  You could say "at this point in the morning I get backed up - too many things happen at the same time.  How could we make it smoother?"

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bluegoat

[Zinnia]

Along with a family culture of all adults working at the same time and all adults relaxing at the same time (so it is rare that one person is still working while the other is vegging out) and  an acceptance of my role as a family manager, I would likely insist on being appreciated and acknowledged as having that role of manager.  I'd start with a sweet conversation over a glass of wine.  I'd go to texting every afternoon with a "heads up on what I accomplished today in regards to house management!"  I'd bring it up at the dinner table and say, "yes, kids, it's appropriate to tell me thank you now :) !"  I'd mention it over and over until my dh caved and told me how wonderful I was doing all the thinking and managing the house. I'd forward articles I found about emotional work, I'd mention that I saw someone share something on facebook, and it would be a constant topic of conversation.

 

And my own dh would eventually cave and shower me with appreciation.  Which is why I'd use this (lighthearted, but persistent) tactic with him.  He wouldn't get angry or resentful, which means ymmv about your own relationship.

[lauraw4321]

Along with a family culture of all adults working at the same time and all adults relaxing at the same time (so it is rare that one person is still working while the other is vegging out) and  an acceptance of my role as a family manager, I would likely insist on being appreciated and acknowledged as having that role of manager.  I'd start with a sweet conversation over a glass of wine.  I'd go to texting every afternoon with a "heads up on what I accomplished today in regards to house management!"  I'd bring it up at the dinner table and say, "yes, kids, it's appropriate to tell me thank you now :) !"  I'd mention it over and over until my dh caved and told me how wonderful I was doing all the thinking and managing the house. I'd forward articles I found about emotional work, I'd mention that I saw someone share something on facebook, and it would be a constant topic of conversation.

 

And my own dh would eventually cave and shower me with appreciation.  Which is why I'd use this (lighthearted, but persistent) tactic with him.  He wouldn't get angry or resentful, which means ymmv about your own relationship.

 

Wouldn't work in my family.

[kbutton]

I need to figure out how to explain to him about the work I do that he doesn't know about or see, and how that takes up my time, and that when I delegate tasks (and I will start to be more complete in my instructions) it isn't so that I can *avoid* doing work, it is so I can do the other work that I don't delegate.

 

There are 52 things to do, I delegate 12 of them. He doesn't know about the other 40. He does 6 of the 52 and doesn't see what the problem is. Because he doesn't see that there are actually 52 to do.  

 

Did that make any sense? Total sense.

 

Only you really know if you can tackle this with or without support. He might be amazing and can take a heart to heart on this. Or, he might minimize, get anxious and be resentful, give lip service to the idea but not change. It may take 100 conversations just to define what you want from this revelation, and each one might show yet another thing that "hasn't occurred" to him before now...it's really hard to know. You might have an inkling before you ask how it's going to go.

 

If you think it will go badly, I'd get support before tackling this.

 

If you try a heart to heart, and it goes sideways, he might need you to tell him point blank that when he doesn't accept this information from you, he is essentially calling you a liar or saying that your opinion of what needs to be done is unimportant. It might not have occurred to him that he could be doing that with his words and behavior (or lack of response...the possibilities for avoiding and things "not occurring" to him could be endless and totally unconscious). Autopilot living (everything is now or not now) is very easy to do but hard to undo.

 

I really hope that you are able to move forward productively. 

[Bluegoat]

We could never all relax/work at the same time.  Our jobs are too different.  And maybe even more, we'd both hate being obligated to work on someone else's timeline.

[wendyroo]

8 y.o. also has ADD/executive function issues. Is basically a tiny clone of her father. So no. 

 

I think what is happening is that I have very good short-term memory, executive function, and so I don't need external assistance or scaffolding. And I still haven't fully accepted the fact that others might. And this thread is helping me remember and re-learn that. So... yeah. Lots of lists.

 

There is no time like the present to start slowly building those skills.  My 6 and 8 year olds have combinations of ASD, ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder and anxiety.  I figure one of my primary responsibilities as a parent (to these particular challenging kiddos) is providing the intense scaffolding they will need in order to successfully manage their day to day lives in the future.

 

My 8 year old is currently attending a day camp.  We started brainstorming a packing list a full week before camp.  We read all the pre-camp handouts together and kept a running list of things he wanted or needed to take.  We looked up the weather forecast to get a sense of what he would probably be wearing.  We had a Socratic dialogue to help him think through what he knew about camp, and what guesses he could make about things he might want while he was there.

 

Immediately after the first day, we went over his list and tweaked it based on what he had experienced on day 1.

 

Now, with DS's mental health challenges, I am not ready to let him sink or swim yet with regard to packing.  I'm not "in charge" of gathering his things, but I still play a supervisory role.  But, since he has already helped write a detailed packing list, it is easy for someone else to step into the supervisory role even if they don't know anything about camp requirements.  Now that DS6 can read, we are even experimenting with he and DS8 being each other's "supervisors".  When they both had swimming lessons every morning last week, they would gather their things, and then swap packing lists and double check whether their brother had everything on his list packed.  It took me out of the equation completely.   :hurray:  :thumbup:  :wub:

 

Wendy