truck driver church van crash update

[gardenmom5]

I'm sure we were talking about it here, but I can't find the thread.

 

updated info is the guy was using pills AND pot.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4404092/Truck-driver-killed-13-churchgoers-taken-pills.html

 

and people want to legalize this stuff.

[Guest]

I saw an article about the pills, but it didn't mention the weed. I wonder if the possession charges might help add on more to the manslaughter charges.

[poppy]

There are some hard photos to look at in that article.  Not gruesome, but still, as someone whose lost a family member in a crash, I avoid such photos.

 

The driver was on 2 Clonazepam plus Ambien and Lexapro.  Wow. 

There was pot in his car, but, the article does not say he consumed it. 

We know about the pills because he told the police (as opposed to blood tests).

 

[gardenmom5]

There are some hard photos to look at in that article.  Not gruesome, but still, as someone whose lost a family member in a crash, I avoid such photos.

 

The driver was on 2 Clonazepam plus Ambien and Lexapro.  Wow. 

There was pot in his car, but, the article does not say he consumed it. 

We know about the pills because he told the police (as opposed to blood tests).

 

there were five partially smoked joints in addition to the two unsmoked joints.

[poppy]

there were five partially smoked joints in addition to the two unsmoked joints.

 

Right, but that doesn't mean he was high on pot during the crash, just that at some point he'd smoked them.

 

"...court documents show Young admitted after the crash he had taken two Clonazepam pills as well as prescription drugs Ambien and Lexapro.   Trooper Scott Hewitt signed an affidavit which said investigators also found two unsmoked marijuana cigarettes in Young's truck and five partially smoked joints."

[Guest]

Holy cow. So tragic all around. :(

[ErinE]

The photos of the victims - my heart hurts for their families

[TechWife]

Please be careful about drawing conclusions about this. The man was on medications used to treat mental illness. That does not mean that the medications contributed to the accident in any way. There is a huge stigma surrounding mental illness and seeking treatment. Please don't add to the stigma.

[MercyA]

nm 

Edited April 12, 2017 by MercyA

[Barb_]

Please be careful about drawing conclusions about this. The man was on medications used to treat mental illness. That does not mean that the medications contributed to the accident in any way. There is a huge stigma surrounding mental illness and seeking treatment. Please don't add to the stigma.

Ambien and driving? That's a bad combination regardless of the circumstances.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Barb_

[gardenmom5]

Right, but that doesn't mean he was high on pot during the crash, just that at some point he'd smoked them.

 

"...court documents show Young admitted after the crash he had taken two Clonazepam pills as well as prescription drugs Ambien and Lexapro.   Trooper Scott Hewitt signed an affidavit which said investigators also found two unsmoked marijuana cigarettes in Young's truck and five partially smoked joints."

 

and originally he only admitted to texting.

 

I'm sure blood tests are pending.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

There were three separate sets of warning calls made before the crash--in Real County, Uvalde, and then the famous call & video all have seen.

 

The reason this story is sensational is because of the video, and the quantity of victims in one accident. In reality, DWI is a HUGE issue in TX and the culture of semi-acceptance of aggressive/fast driving combined with a "you just keep to yourself" mentality means that there are a helluva lot of DWI accidents here. 

 

My fear is that this will all blow over in a couple of weeks and no fundamental change will have occurred.  I think this is more of a DWI issue than a texting one....and today's evidence goes to that. 

[poppy]

Ambien and driving? That's a bad combination regardless of the circumstances.

 

Many people have been arrested for driving under the influence of ambien.   I

[Word Nerd]

Please be careful about drawing conclusions about this. The man was on medications used to treat mental illness. That does not mean that the medications contributed to the accident in any way. There is a huge stigma surrounding mental illness and seeking treatment. Please don't add to the stigma.

 

To paraphrase what another story said, an affidavit from a state trooper seeking a blood test for a toxicology report said the trooper had probable cause to believe Young was intoxicated because the man told a trooper he had taken prescription medication earlier in the day. The blood tests may determine that the combination of drugs he took that day contributed to the accident along with texting, etc. If the evidence is found to support that conclusion, then it's a valid conclusion, whether it contributes to any stigma or not.

[Guest]

There were three separate sets of warning calls made before the crash--in Real County, Uvalde, and then the famous call & video all have seen.

 

The reason this story is sensational is because of the video, and the quantity of victims in one accident. In reality, DWI is a HUGE issue in TX and the culture of semi-acceptance of aggressive/fast driving combined with a "you just keep to yourself" mentality means that there are a helluva lot of DWI accidents here. 

 

My fear is that this will all blow over in a couple of weeks and no fundamental change will have occurred.  I think this is more of a DWI issue than a texting one....and today's evidence goes to that. 

 

Our town sends out a weekly police report of all arrests. It is stunning how many arrests they make of people under the influence of marijuana, or synthetic marijuana- whatever it's called. I would estimate there are 2-3 more stops for that than alcohol lately. And these aren't just possession raps, where the person was pulled over for something else and then they found the weed. It's called in by a citizen, or they see the erratic driving.  It's seemed to really have shifted over the last two years. It makes me worry what it will be like if they legalize it all. But I've noticed a lot more meth and pills in those reports too, so maybe it's drug use in general and not just weed. Whichever way, it's sad and it terrifies me to think my daughter will soon be driving. :( 

[Catwoman]

Please be careful about drawing conclusions about this. The man was on medications used to treat mental illness. That does not mean that the medications contributed to the accident in any way. There is a huge stigma surrounding mental illness and seeking treatment. Please don't add to the stigma.

The thing is, sometimes a person shouldn't be driving if they are taking certain medications. It's not a stigma against people with mental illness -- people take medications for all kinds of medical conditions.

 

I have taken a few medications over the years for alllergies or illnesses and have realized pretty quickly that I shouldn't drive while I was taking them because they made me sleepy or disoriented or whatever. Many prescriptions have warning labels; we have all seen those "do not operate heavy machinery" labels on prescription bottles.

[ktgrok]

Ambien and driving? That's a bad combination regardless of the circumstances.

 

Yeah, he may not have consciously decided to drive. There are lots of reports of people fully intending to go to sleep after taking Ambient, but ended up hallucinating, and doing all sorts of things they never intended to do, and don't remember doing afterwards. If that is the case, would he even be morally culpable? 

[Guest]

Yeah, he may not have consciously decided to drive. There are lots of reports of people fully intending to go to sleep after taking Ambient, but ended up hallucinating, and doing all sorts of things they never intended to do, and don't remember doing afterwards. If that is the case, would he even be morally culpable?

It's odd that he had it in the car with him. I know there have been some court cases around it, but I never remember hearing how they turned out. Wasn't one of them a Kennedy who blamed it for a DUI?

[Seasider]

Yeah, he may not have consciously decided to drive. There are lots of reports of people fully intending to go to sleep after taking Ambient, but ended up hallucinating, and doing all sorts of things they never intended to do, and don't remember doing afterwards. If that is the case, would he even be morally culpable?

And he got off on all charges? And then a victims family or two ganged up for some vigilante justice? And he shot one of them trying to defend himself? Sounds like a John Grisham novel. (Heck maybe this post could be my poor gal's copyright to that story😆!).

 

Sorry y'all, my imagination runs away with me. But I do think there's an interesting chicken-egg question here.

[luuknam]

Please be careful about drawing conclusions about this. The man was on medications used to treat mental illness. That does not mean that the medications contributed to the accident in any way. 

 

 

Sleeping pills (Ambien) not contributing to an accident is pretty unlikely, imo. Lexapro otoh likely has nothing to do with it. Klonopin is somewhat more of a gray area, dependent on the dose and the person and all that. And I've been on about a dozen different mental health meds over time (though not on Ambien, but that one seems like common sense).

 

ETA: the Klonopin becomes less of a gray area when combined with a sleeping pill. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by luuknam

[TechWife]

Ambien and driving? That's a bad combination regardless of the circumstances.

 

You have no idea when he took the Ambien in relation to when he was driving. It could have been hours (the effects are not long lasting), days or even weeks before. 

[TechWife]

To paraphrase what another story said, an affidavit from a state trooper seeking a blood test for a toxicology report said the trooper had probable cause to believe Young was intoxicated because the man told a trooper he had taken prescription medication earlier in the day. The blood tests may determine that the combination of drugs he took that day contributed to the accident along with texting, etc. If the evidence is found to support that conclusion, then it's a valid conclusion, whether it contributes to any stigma or not.

 

Yes, it would be a valid conclusion. However, to point it out prior to knowing whether or not is is a contributing factor is adding to the stigma. 

[Catwoman]

You have no idea when he took the Ambien in relation to when he was driving. It could have been hours (the effects are not long lasting), days or even weeks before.

The after effects can be very long lasting depending on the person. I had a terrible experience after taking Ambien, and it was the evening AFTER I had taken it the night before -- and that was the one and only time I took it. When I spoke with my regular GP about it (because it really scared me,) he said my experience wasn't uncommon and that he'd had several other patients report the same types of problems. He said he didn't believe the information that said the effects wore off quickly because that wasn't what he had seen with his own patients.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Catwoman

[Guest]

This is the case I was thinking about. She didn't kill anyone, and was found not-guilty. 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/28/justice/kerry-kennedy-dwi-trial/

[TechWife]

The thing is, sometimes a person shouldn't be driving if they are taking certain medications. It's not a stigma against people with mental illness -- people take medications for all kinds of medical conditions.

 

I have taken a few medications over the years for alllergies or illnesses and have realized pretty quickly that I shouldn't drive while I was taking them because they made me sleepy or disoriented or whatever. Many prescriptions have warning labels; we have all seen those "do not operate heavy machinery" labels on prescription bottles.

 

Very true, we should all be careful when we take medication and drive. I don't dispute that at all. However, generally people don't make moral judgements about people when they are taking decongestants or other prescription medications. With mental illness, people feel free to make those moral judgements whether or not the mental illness or it's treatment poses a problem for anyone other than the ill person.  

[Catwoman]

Very true, we should all be careful when we take medication and drive. I don't dispute that at all. However, generally people don't make moral judgements about people when they are taking decongestants or other prescription medications. With mental illness, people feel free to make those moral judgements whether or not the mental illness or it's treatment poses a problem for anyone other than the ill person.

Oh, okay! I understand what you mean now. Sorry I misunderstood you! :)

[TechWife]

It's odd that he had it in the car with him. I know there have been some court cases around it, but I never remember hearing how they turned out. Wasn't one of them a Kennedy who blamed it for a DUI?

 

I didn't see anywhere that said he had it in the car with him. Do you have a reference? 

 

In any case, many people always carry their medications with them. It is really not an issue if he has a prescribed medication in his possession. I haven't seen any articles that state whether or not they were prescribed and sense he disclosed them to the officer, I tend to think they were prescribed. Of course, I could be wrong. 

[Guest]

The after effects can be very long lasting depending on the person. I had a terrible experience after taking Ambien, and it was the evening AFTER I had taken it the night before -- and that was the one and only time I took it. When I spoke with my regular GP about it (because it really scared me,) he said my experience wasn't uncommon and that he'd had several other patients report the same types of problems. He said he didn't believe the information that said the effects wore off quickly because that wasn't what he had seen with his own patients.

 

It amazes me that Ambien hasn't been slapped with a black box warning after all these years. In addition to the health hazards, things like this.......I just don't understand the FDA rationale on this one. 

[Guest]

I didn't see anywhere that said he had it in the car with him. Do you have a reference? 

 

In any case, many people always carry their medications with them. It is really not an issue if he has a prescribed medication in his possession. I haven't seen any articles that state whether or not they were prescribed and sense he disclosed them to the officer, I tend to think they were prescribed. Of course, I could be wrong. 

 

This is the article I read it in this morning: http://www.khou.com/news/local/texas/txdot-truck-driver-in-fatal-church-bus-crash-on-pills-texting-before-accident/430508287

 

ETA: None of the articles I've seen today thus far have said whether or not he had these in Rx bottles in his name. 

 

 

 

Hewitt stated that he found medications in the front seat of Young's pickup including 29 Zolpidem pills in a bottle, 30 Escitalopram pills in a bottle, an empty bottle of Clonazepam and an empty bottle of Prazosin.

Edited April 12, 2017 by texasmom33

[Word Nerd]

NM 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Word Nerd

[Catwoman]

It amazes me that Ambien hasn't been slapped with a black box warning after all these years. In addition to the health hazards, things like this.......I just don't understand the FDA rationale on this one.

:iagree:

 

I have never had that kind of reaction to any other medication, and I'm so careful about not driving when I'm on a medication, but the thing with Ambien is that you really believe you're fine. It's so weird. And I didn't drive until almost 24 hours after I took the one pill, so I had no reason to think I would have any trouble.

 

I know some people can take Ambien and they're fine, but I would never recommend it to anyone, because you just can't tell for sure whether or not you'll be one of the people who has the bizarre reactions to it.

[TechWife]

Sleeping pills (Ambien) not contributing to an accident is pretty unlikely, imo. Lexapro otoh likely has nothing to do with it. Klonopin is somewhat more of a gray area, dependent on the dose and the person and all that. And I've been on about a dozen different mental health meds over time (though not on Ambien, but that one seems like common sense).

 

ETA: the Klonopin becomes less of a gray area when combined with a sleeping pill. 

 

It depends on when the Ambien and the Klonopin were taken in relation to the time he was driving.  Ambien is a really weird drug with a ton of potential side effects.  I took it for a few years and the effects always wore off after about five hours (I never slept the whole night through when I was on it), so I never had any issues driving. I'm not familiar with Klonopin, but again, it would depend on when he took it in relation to the time he was driving. 

 

When I have had to take work-related drug tests, the lab form asked for any medications that I have taken in the past thirty days. I wonder what the test ordered by the police department requests as far as disclosure? Anyone taking a prescribed medication would be a fool not to disclose it on a drug test. 

 

ETA: Given the accounts of "Ambien amnesia" I've read over the years, I, too am surprised that it doesn't either come with a stronger warning. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by TechWife

[TechWife]

This is the article I read it in this morning: http://www.khou.com/news/local/texas/txdot-truck-driver-in-fatal-church-bus-crash-on-pills-texting-before-accident/430508287

 

ETA: None of the articles I've seen today thus far have said whether or not he had these in Rx bottles in his name. 

 

Those amounts aren't alarming - within normal prescribing ranges. I do wonder why no one has stated that they were or were not in his name. My honest, jaded, totally biased guess is that if they are in prescription bottles with his name on them, it isn't as sensational, so they just leave that fact out. 

[Guest]

It depends on when the Ambien and the Klonopin were taken in relation to the time he was driving.  Ambien is a really weird drug with a ton of potential side effects.  I took it for a few years and the effects always wore off after about five hours (I never slept the whole night through when I was on it), so I never had any issues driving. I'm not familiar with Klonopin, but again, it would depend on when he took it in relation to the time he was driving. 

 

When I have had to take work-related drug tests, the lab form asked for any medications that I have taken in the past thirty days. I wonder what the test ordered by the police department requests as far as disclosure? Anyone taking a prescribed medication would be a fool not to disclose it on a drug test. 

 

ETA: Given the accounts of "Ambien amnesia" I've read over the years, I, too am surprised that it doesn't either come with a stronger warning. 

 

This is totally unrelated to the truck driver, but as for Ambien: Considering the cardiac risks it creates, I can't believe it ethically doesn't have a BBW or get pulled off the market. I think those are even worse than the sleep driving/amnesia incidents. It's a horrible risky drug and I don't think most patients are aware of it. I'm guessing if most people read the statistics on the packaging insert and the studies they would flush it and live with the insomnia. 

 

Klonipin comes with a warning not to drive or operate machinery "until you know how it affects you". IF he was prescribed this medication, and doctor advising him to take these drugs simultaneously and not suspending him from driving needs to have their license yanked. There is no way you can be on what he had in that truck and not be heavily impaired. Even if they were spaced out throughout the day, or Rx'd "as needed". I think most of them are going to have warnings on the bottle that would put some of the responsibility in his lap. 

[Barb_]

Yeah, he may not have consciously decided to drive. There are lots of reports of people fully intending to go to sleep after taking Ambient, but ended up hallucinating, and doing all sorts of things they never intended to do, and don't remember doing afterwards. If that is the case, would he even be morally culpable?

Hm, that's a good point .If that's the case, then no, I wouldn't agree that he's culpable. I wonder though if they'd go after ambian in a lawsuit. This would be the first case I've heard of when someone has killed people while on it.

[Barb_]

The after effects can be very long lasting depending on the person. I had a terrible experience after taking Ambien, and it was the evening AFTER I had taken it the night before -- and that was the one and only time I took it. When I spoke with my regular GP about it (because it really scared me,) he said my experience wasn't uncommon and that he'd had several other patients report the same types of problems. He said he didn't believe the information that said the effects wore off quickly because that wasn't what he had seen with his own patients.

:Headslap: Then WHY do they continue to prescribe it?

[Seasider]

This is the case I was thinking about. She didn't kill anyone, and was found not-guilty.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/28/justice/kerry-kennedy-dwi-trial/

That's a multifaceted case for sure. I'm wondering about people who take ambien, go to bed when they feel it make them sleepy, then later in the night unknowingly eat entire gallons of ice cream and give themselves a Brazilian. Or get in the car and drive.

[kroe1]

Bottom line, just another example why anyone impaired, either legally or illegally, should not operate machinery. We have done wonders with drunk driving laws over the years, we need to keep going with prescription drugs also. The innocents should be protected, no matter what the reason for the impairment.

[FaithManor]

Yeah, he may not have consciously decided to drive. There are lots of reports of people fully intending to go to sleep after taking Ambient, but ended up hallucinating, and doing all sorts of things they never intended to do, and don't remember doing afterwards. If that is the case, would he even be morally culpable?

Yes because there are warnings on the meds and it is the responsibility of the adult to see to it they do not drive. If that means giving your car keys to the neighbor for safe keeping, so be it. There have been a lot of stories out there about the perils of ambience and big font warnings on the prescriptions. It is not fair to the rest of us on the road that a driver cannot be held responsible for dosing up, and not taking proper precautions first.

[goldberry]

Legalizing marijuana use does not make it okay to drive while impaired, any more that it is legal to drive while impaired by alcohol, or, has been mentioned, impaired by legal prescription drugs.   So I'm not sure how the comment "people want to legalize all this stuff" applies?  

[gardenmom5]

Legalizing marijuana use does not make it okay to drive while impaired, any more that it is legal to drive while impaired by alcohol, or, has been mentioned, impaired by legal prescription drugs.   So I'm not sure how the comment "people want to legalize all this stuff" applies?  

 

driving while drunk isn't ok- but people do it all. the. time.

legalizing it - makes it very easy to get.  and people who wouldn't use it when it was illegal - are now using it.

 

I'm in a state where it is legal. 

[Carrie12345]

driving while drunk isn't ok- but people do it all. the. time.

legalizing it - makes it very easy to get.  and people who wouldn't use it when it was illegal - are now using it.

 

I'm in a state where it is legal. 

 

People who won't smoke it when it's illegal but will when it is sound like pretty law abiding citizens. I wouldn't expect them to break DWI laws just because.

[Farrar]

Legalization has nothing to do with it. It sounds like he probably was not under the influence of the illegal drug when the crash occurred. He was under the influence of the legal ones.

 

[TechWife]

Yeah, he may not have consciously decided to drive. There are lots of reports of people fully intending to go to sleep after taking Ambient, but ended up hallucinating, and doing all sorts of things they never intended to do, and don't remember doing afterwards. If that is the case, would he even be morally culpable?

 

  

Hm, that's a good point .If that's the case, then no, I wouldn't agree that he's culpable. I wonder though if they'd go after ambian in a lawsuit. This would be the first case I've heard of when someone has killed people while on it.

  

Bottom line, just another example why anyone impaired, either legally or illegally, should not operate machinery. We have done wonders with drunk driving laws over the years, we need to keep going with prescription drugs also. The innocents should be protected, no matter what the reason for the impairment.

Multi quote looks odd on my iPad, y'all! I'll look at it in the am and see if it needs to be fixed.

 

Just as people who drink alcohol and drive are liable (culpable? Not sure of the right legal term) ecause thry knew or should have known that their driving would be impaired if they drink excessive amounts, we should hold those who take Rex drugs to the same standards. Right now there are legal limits on the amount of alcohol that can be in your bloodstream and l agally drive. I don't know that it is that simple with prescription drugs - different drugs affect people differently, differences in metabolism, other meds prescribed concurrently, drug dosages and dosing schedules. A lot of data needs to be studied to figure it out - it would be well worth the time. They woIn addition, drug makers need to g t n the ball and provide good understandable information; MD's need to educate themselves and then their patients, RPh must continue to educate patients.

[TABmom]

I take ambien every night and have never had any kind of reaction. Nothing has ever disappeared in the kitchen, or been in some strange place when I got up. I can remember every time I was woken up by a kid and why they woke me up. Dh doesn't take anything, but often, in the morning he'll say "oh, B slept through the night- that's great". Only B did not sleep through the night.

[maize]

 

Multi quote looks odd on my iPad, y'all! I'll look at it in the am and see if it needs to be fixed.

 

Just as people who drink alcohol and drive are liable (culpable? Not sure of the right legal term) ecause thry knew or should have known that their driving would be impaired if they drink excessive amounts, we should hold those who take Rex drugs to the same standards. Right now there are legal limits on the amount of alcohol that can be in your bloodstream and l agally drive. I don't know that it is that simple with prescription drugs - different drugs affect people differently, differences in metabolism, other meds prescribed concurrently, drug dosages and dosing schedules. A lot of data needs to be studied to figure it out - it would be well worth the time. They woIn addition, drug makers need to g t n the ball and provide good understandable information; MD's need to educate themselves and then their patients, RPh must continue to educate patients.

I know this works best in metropolitan areas, but I would really love to see better, more accessible, and more used public transportation networks in this country. There aren't always many options for people who have to take medications and need to get from point a to point b.

[Aelwydd]

I know this works best in metropolitan areas, but I would really love to see better, more accessible, and more used public transportation networks in this country. There aren't always many options for people who have to take medications and need to get from point a to point b.

 

Not to derail the conversation, but...

 

Rural areas, like where this accident occurred, have far fewer people spread out over much bigger areas. Those areas which do have bus service usually have long transit times, long waits very early or late, and long walks along unsafe roads to get to the bus or train stop.

 

And public transit is expensive even in urban areas where there are far more people in a smaller area to cover, to pay for it. I read an interesting article a few years ago by an engineer who plans city water, roads, and waste, etc. He pointed out that rural communities almost never have the tax base to pay for such infrastructure, so they rely on low interest federal loans and subsidies from urban areas to pay for their projects.

 

In the same way, unless rural communities can find outside sources of financial underwriting, rural public transit, at least, is unfortunately a pipe dream. Not to mention, IME, a lot of rural communities are frequently politically orientated against such options, for many reasons.

 

I think Lyft or Uber or car pooling may probably be their best bet for now, until self driving cars become more available. Not even sure if such would have been an option in this case. Mental illness is already stigmatized, and the same people who are opposed to expanding health care to them at public cost would likely be opposed to expanding public transit options as well.

 

Ironically, the people on that bus were in the same demographic subset that are frequently politically opposed to either either option.

 

We all pay the costs for mental illness no matter our individual stances on how it should be treated. Or not.

 

ETA: Here's an interesting article about the cost of public transit in and around the Twin Cities, where I live.

 

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/04/12/reality-check-light-rail-subsidizes/

Edited April 13, 2017 by Aelwydd

[Guest]

Well on the legalization issue- Colorado had a record breaking year of traffic accident deaths last year. Might be coincidence. Might not be. 1/3 of them were DUI related. Surrounding states are also reporting a severe uptick in DUIs. Something is changing. It might be attitudes, it might be access, but DUIs are on the rise in many areas.