Does anyone else see this? Do you think it is cause for concern?

[EmseB]

I get that it *can* be made to work if the parent is in a real bind.

Is that kid really better off, though?  Really?

 

I think that question is why you get such a disparity of opinions and responses.  Some would say yes, some would say no, some would say, "Not usually, but...."

[poppy]

I think that question is why you get such a disparity of opinions and responses. Some would say yes, some would say no, some would say, "Not usually, but...."

These questions when appearing in what are basically homeschooling support groups rarely get the 'no'. They are told it can work. They might get someone mentioning it will be stressful to the parent . No one ever says - or really can say , in a support group - that the child might actually benefit from a classroom and having a six hours with classmates and the teachers (divided ) attention vs maybe an hour with Mom and many hours staring at a screen .

[EmseB]

These questions when appearing in what are basically homeschooling support groups rarely get the 'no'. They are told it can work. They might get someone mentioning it will be stressful to the parent . No one ever says - or really can say , in a support group - that the child might actually benefit from a classroom and having a six hours with classmates and the teachers (divided ) attention vs maybe an hour with Mom and many hours staring at a screen .

Well, yeah, it depends on how you load the question and where you're asking for opinions.

 

But still, sometimes being around peers in a school setting is worse than the alternative you mentioned. I would say that is more true in high school, but I can see imagine it in other situations. Also, I can't tell if you're talking about online academies as "staring at a screen" or if you literally mean just watching TV or something. The online academies I know of are live classes that require participation and output. Or, if not live, they still require output from the student.

 

I think maybe a lot of differences in opinion come from where people set their standards from. If you (general) consider a classroom setting as an ideal that just doesn't work for some kids, then you're going to end up disagreeing (maybe) with the choices of a person who thinks that a classroom setting is not necessarily the baseline upon which all other options should be measured. A person might find that, for their family, it is better that their kid do an online academy at home rather than go to school because their standards are fundamentally different.

[poppy]

Well, yeah, it depends on how you load the question and where you're asking for opinions.

 

But still, sometimes being around peers in a school setting is worse than the alternative you mentioned. I would say that is more true in high school, but I can see imagine it in other situations. Also, I can't tell if you're talking about online academies as "staring at a screen" or if you literally mean just watching TV or something. The online academies I know of are live classes that require participation and output. Or, if not live, they still require output from the student.

 

I think maybe a lot of differences in opinion come from where people set their standards from. If you (general) consider a classroom setting as an ideal that just doesn't work for some kids, then you're going to end up disagreeing (maybe) with the choices of a person who thinks that a classroom setting is not necessarily the baseline upon which all other options should be measured. A person might find that, for their family, it is better that their kid do an online academy at home rather than go to school because their standards are fundamentally different.

 

Clearly many people feel this way, since many people do encourage every single mother who works full time and goes to night school and won't spend money on schooling  or have time to teach to GO FOR IT!!

 

My personal opinion is, it's not always the right choice for everyone, and it shouldn't be forbidden or shameful to talk about that. If you don't agree, you're hardly alone..  That's fine.  But I just want to be clear I don't think "a classroom setting is ideal that jsut doesn't work for some kids" and I don't think that is the position of anyone in this discussion. 

[EmseB]

Clearly many people feel this way, since many people do encourage every single mother who works full time and goes to night school and won't spend money on schooling  or have time to teach to GO FOR IT!!

 

My personal opinion is, it's not always the right choice for everyone, and it shouldn't be forbidden or shameful to talk about that. If you don't agree, you're hardly alone..  That's fine.  But I just want to be clear I don't think "a classroom setting is ideal that jsut doesn't work for some kids" and I don't think that is the position of anyone in this discussion. 

 

I haven't generally encountered quite that sentiment, nor have I seen programs that are just staring at a screen, but I believe you that it exists in some places.  My experience is that on homeschool groups where people come in freaking out about just pulling their kids, they get support.  Because they've just pulled their kids because of a hard situation and reality sets in and they freak out.  I was just saying that I can imagine a case where it would be a better option to have the kid out of school, even if it was a single mom working full time.  I mean, not for little kids that can't be home alone, but for older kids.  Anyway.  In that case, I think a "rah, rah" environment is probably a good thing, because someone in that scenario is probably at their wits' end.  I'm assuming.  And then, over time the person finds their groove and does well, or gets too stressed and looks for alternatives again.

 

But, yeah, that's why I put I meant you generally, not you specifically.  I wasn't trying to say that you thought that, just that people measure things from different places.  It just depends on what one prioritizes, KWIM?  Or sometimes, what priorities life demands of you.

 

Interestingly, if we could find a classical school that was affordable for us, I think they would do a far better job than I can do at home, generally speaking.  But I also know great schools with amazing teachers where some kids just don't thrive.  It's tricky.

Edited January 17, 2017 by EmseB

[xixstar]

Or, when it's clearly not working -- when someone posts and it's obvious that the homeschooling parent is completely overwhelmed and the family is suffering -- usually not just educationally, either -- sometimes it's necessary to encourage people to consider other options (which don't necessarily have to be full-time PS, either).

But then you become "that person" if you speak up. While I am sure there are some that agree, there are others that will think you're being unfair.

 

We have this situation now in one of our groups, I want to just say that's it seems obvious that hs'ing isn't working out and it time to make a transition plan. But that sounds awfully arrogant for me to share. I tend to more do the sublte "when I was so overwhelmed I honestly assessed what we were or were not doing and then accepted that it was time to stop hs'ing."

[FaithManor]

But then you become "that person" if you speak up. While I am sure there are some that agree, there are others that will think you're being unfair.

 

We have this situation now in one of our groups, I want to just say that's it seems obvious that hs'ing isn't working out and it time to make a transition plan. But that sounds awfully arrogant for me to share. I tend to more do the sublte "when I was so overwhelmed I honestly assessed what we were or were not doing and then accepted that it was time to stop hs'ing."

I get where you are coming from. I have been "that person" before because the situation was one in which it was literally abusive, a violation of the child's rights for the guise of homeschooling to continue. The mother was so afraid the boy would leave their church as an adult if "the world horned in" that she did not want him to learn to read. She is a flat earther too so her anti education bent is extreme. The children were not being taught anything that would lead them to any kind of independence as an adult.

 

I am one of the few that believes a true, basic high school education for a neurotypical child is a basic human right because one cannot pursue "life, liberty" in modern times without it, and one cannot achieve any measure of independence or even participate in one's own defense these days without. One cannot adequately understand pharmacy instructions much of which is getting more and more technical and the same with medicine. I even go so far as to say that in this era pegging functional literacy at anything under 9th/10th grade reading level and numeracy as less than 8th grade so at least pre-algebra or algebra one is also illiteracy is wrong. Things have become too complicated to adequately participate in the workforce, civics, and social discussion without it. Even understanding how to program accel spreadsheets and use them requires more literacy than 5th grade which is considered functional literacy and numeracy by some. Add to that how easy it is to scam someone who cannot balance a checkbook, understand mortgages, read the fine print on the billing statement from the orthodontist....

 

So I do have a stricter personal outlook on this than many.

 

Democracy either republic or social democracy requires and educated public to maintain. We cannot afford to losr anymore educational ground in this country than we already have.

[Janeway]

However, I will say, public schools are not that great at educating. And the social environment is not the best. So until the public schools change A LOT and improve, I won't be too concerned with kids who are getting a less than stellar education at home.

[FaithManor]

However, I will say, public schools are not that great at educating. And the social environment is not the best. So until the public schools change A LOT and improve, I won't be too concerned with kids who are getting a less than stellar education at home.

But what about no education at all or close to that? It does beg the question should parents be allowed to violate their childs' rights to such a level? At some point the child's future should count.

 

It is a problem locally. There a very few parents that homeschool exceeding what the local ps manages, another small group that equals that, another group that is fairly anti academic and come under deliberately and especially for girls because their religious belief is that girls should nor be encouraged to be independent (stay at home daughter movement), and another group which is undortunately growing that use homeschooling as the umbrella excuse to do nothing, whose teens are functionally illiterate and will be unemployable adults.

 

I just do not see why the community should tolerate that last bunch. It is not good for anyone.

[Rosie_0801]

another group that is fairly anti academic and come under deliberately and especially for girls because their religious belief is that girls should nor be encouraged to be independent (stay at home daughter movement), 

 

How caring, to spend so much effort creating domestic violence for their girls!

 

Because what else could happen? What kind of man wants to marry that kind of girl? :( :ack2:

[FaithManor]

How caring, to spend so much effort creating domestic violence for their girls!

 

Because what else could happen? What kind of man wants to marry that kind of girl? :( :ack2:

And that is an excellent point. Without the ability to be independent, they are at the mercy of males who do not have their best interests at heart. Sigh...

 

It is a dominionist theology that is gaining ground locally. UGH! I need to get out of here. It used to be more fringe, however in the last two years a couple of local rather large churches have started preaching this crud.

 

So I have some pretty big concerns. Just on these grounds alone I could see future restrictions placed on homeschooling. Numerous communities are not happy with exemptions for the Amish so it could easily end up directed at other religious groups.

[LucyStoner]

Aren't these kids taking the PSAT and the SAT, ACT Tests? Because those should demonstrate significant lacks before they get to college.

 

Community colleges here do not require SAT or ACT scores. You take a placement test and many kids are steered into remedial level courses. Here the English placement test is a low enough bar that you end up with students in college level classes who can't write a decent paragraph. One good thing here though is the Adult Basic Education classes are cheap (in many cases free) and they don't start using their financial aid eligibility. Edited January 18, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Seasider]

And that is an excellent point. Without the ability to be independent, they are at the mercy of males who do not have their best interests at heart. Sigh...

 

It is a dominionist theology that is gaining ground locally. UGH! I need to get out of here. It used to be more fringe, however in the last two years a couple of local rather large churches have started preaching this crud.

.

I've seen this too, and I'm just shaking my head. Some of the larger churches who were starting down this road have shaken it off, but not all. I really don't get it.

 

But then again, I ran into my first flat earther the other day. I was shocked. I thought they were actually stuff of myth.

[FaithManor]

I've seen this too, and I'm just shaking my head. Some of the larger churches who were starting down this road have shaken it off, but not all. I really don't get it.

 

But then again, I ran into my first flat earther the other day. I was shocked. I thought they were actually stuff of myth.

Ya it is quite a brain twitch when you meet your first.

 

I think what got me was the big ice ridge around the edges of flat earth being guarded by NASA so people do not fall off the earth. I just simply cannot wrap my brain around the cognitive dissonance!

 

Flat earthers have a lot more faith in people to keep their mouths shut than I do. Someone would have blabbed loooooong before now!! LOL

[poppy]

Stay at home daughter movement ......I want zero association with that. But it's all "homeschooling". Ugh.

[Guest]

Ya it is quite a brain twitch when you meet your first.

 

I think what got me was the big ice ridge around the edges of flat earth being guarded by NASA so people do not fall off the earth. I just simply cannot wrap my brain around the cognitive dissonance!

 

Flat earthers have a lot more faith in people to keep their mouths shut than I do. Someone would have blabbed loooooong before now!! LOL

Wow.

 

People are amazing.

[Bluegoat]

I wonder were this stuff is coming from?  I feel like some of it is new.  I know the more crazy sorts of religious extremes have become a larger group here.  It's weird.

[MotherGoose]

Wow.

 

People are amazing.

I have enough trouble with other homeschool science curricula that aren't quite so extreme.

[FaithManor]

My theory with the flat earth thing is get rich quick cult. Same old same old. Market a truly looney idea (Scientology, Sovereign Citizen, Rayleons) to vulnerable people who are ripe for "government conspiracies to control your mind" yada yada, tell them to send money to fight "the man", buy the materials, videos, books, whatever. Someone at the top is raking in the dough while people who are emotionally fragile, looking to identify with a group to get a sense of belonging and community, get hurt. I feel for the adults but my grace and patience tends to run thin when it comes to the effects on the children raised this way.

 

That is my hypothesis anyway.

 

We've helped a few late teens/young adults move beyond Gothardism which isn't even as whacky as the stuff above. Seeing the emotional devastation of these persons has made me even more supportive of some level of basic education commensurate with ability becoming a basic human right for children.

 

So what's the pay grade for a career spent keeping people from falling off the earth or secretly installing instrumentation to fool pilots into thinking the earth is round? Gives a whole new and even worse perspective on Columbus Day!

[FaithManor]

^lol

 

My dh recently had a conversation with someone he works with at the hospital that didn't believe the earth spins. :eek: :svengo: After realizing she's not joking, he picked himself off the floor and got her to explain that she didn't think it could possibly spin that fast. And planes couldn't take off if we were spinning that fast. After all, why don't we all fly off? He had to grab some objects to demonstrate the relationship between the earth, moon and sun and when he couldn't get her to understand, he told her to never tell anyone this...ever. :blink:

 

local ps grad and mother of kids in school. smh

YOWZA!!

 

PS graduate? Wow. Someone skipped a lot of school, slept, or daydreamed the whole time. Good gravy!

[maize]

I haven't yet encountered a flat earther; I had a hard enough time keeping a straight face when we tried out a friend's science co-op and the day we were there a family was doing a presentation about how the moon landing was faked.

 

We opted not to join that co-op...

Edited January 18, 2017 by maize

[maize]

I wonder were this stuff is coming from? I feel like some of it is new. I know the more crazy sorts of religious extremes have become a larger group here. It's weird.

It may be that the internet allows stuff to spread faster and farther than it would otherwise.

[Murphy101]

^lol

 

My dh recently had a conversation with someone he works with at the hospital that didn't believe the earth spins. :eek: :svengo: After realizing she's not joking, he picked himself off the floor and got her to explain that she didn't think it could possibly spin that fast. And planes couldn't take off if we were spinning that fast. After all, why don't we all fly off? He had to grab some objects to demonstrate the relationship between the earth, moon and sun and when he couldn't get her to understand, he told her to never tell anyone this...ever. :blink:

 

local ps grad and mother of kids in school. smh

I know lots of people who do not know this. Many also do not now that the earth goes around the sun, rather than the sun going around the earth.

 

It rates right up there with Christians who do not know that Good Friday is the day Christ was crucified.

 

Thankfully, I know very few home schoolers who lack such basic common knowledge, this ignorance is from people who went to schools k-12, some even have degrees.

[FaithManor]

I haven't yet encountered a flat earther; I had a hard enough time keeping a straight face when we tried out a friend's science co-op and the day we were there a family was doing a presentation about how the moon landing was faked.

 

We opted not to join that co-op...

Hoo boy! Another doozy. Seriously folks, that many humans are not capable of keeping the big secret. Someone is going to leak a classified document, write a book, and retire to Morocco!

 

The local homeschool group disinvited me from doing a science day when they found out my kids read Harry Potter. They thought I might try to teach the children witchcraft and felt the equipment might have been demon possessed. I really feel sorry for people who are that lacking in critical thinking skills coupled with so much fear. It mares them quite gullible. What a way for children to be raised!

[Guest]

We are listening to the HP audiobooks on our way to church - it's one of the few times everyone is in the car together. They're delightful.

 

I do know some families who do the SAH daughter thing but most of them are doing it while the kid pursues college or vocational training, or until they marry and/or find a path where leaving home makes sense. They tend to split time helping mom and pursuing their future goals. The parents want to protect their girls a bit from the singles culture, no doubt, but I don't think any are creepy cultish about it at all.

 

That's probably the difference between a religious but fairly normal, emotionally healthy family and a vulnerable, labile one that jumps on any bandwagon that promises them some control. What is being described here sounds awful.

[maize]

I only occasionally get glimpses of the extremist underbelly of the homeschooling world. My family homeschooled off and on, it was just one education option among many that my parents took advantage of, including public schools, private schools, and even boarding school. Education was extremely important in both my immediate and extended family, it was just assumed that all of us kids would go to college.

 

When I started looking into homeschool as an option for my own kids I would read blogs and such about large, religiously devout families homeschooling. That felt completely familiar and normal. I've really only learned on this board about things like the Gothard movement with their odd restrictive ideas. It never occurred to me that there were folks out there refusing to send daughters to college, or avoiding any mention of evolution, or not registering their children's births.

 

I actually think that the surface similarities to my own upbringing made all of that harder to perceive.

Edited January 18, 2017 by maize

[Amy in NH]

My issue is that these students are underprepared not just for university, but for CC. Students who are technically high school graduates and place into arithmetic or pre-algebra at a CC have an incredibly low rate of success both at continuing to the next year and at graduating in general, and a big reason is because they are so far behind that they are looking at semesters of remediation before proceeding to collegiate classes and then running out of financial aid eligibility before graduation. This is a subject of nationwide discussion among university educators.

 

Furthermore, CC remedial classes used to be more basic, but now tend to assume that a student has seen algebra and geometry, but just not mastered it. They aren't well suited for an initial exposure as they move much too rapidly for that. Some bright students can make the leap, but most can't.

 

ETA: Btw, the only real modification that would stop this would be refusing to accept their fabricated transcripts at face value. And yes, they are fabricated. They are getting admitted because they have transcripts that say that they passed two years of algebra and one of geometry with certain grades, but multiple students have told me in confidentiality that they never studied those and their parent just downloaded a transcript. So we could require extra documentation from homeschool students that isn't required from general admission students, but that tends to raise hackles as well and doesn't address the larger issue with the spreading myth of "anything is better than PS"

My homeschool-graduate university student was required to take SAT subject tests in math, chemistry, and physics. They additionally had 30 college credits from DE they took over the course of their high school career. We didn't blink twice at the expectation of proof of rigor in our home ed program.

 

IMO, the college you are referencing needs to set higher expectations. But the fact is that many schools are willing to take any warm body that will pay tuition. That is not a homeschool fail.

 

But to answer the op, yes I am concerned because I think this lackadaisical attitude of many parents toward a home education will eventually lead to onerous regulations for all of us.

[Murphy101]

As to the topic...

 

Those online curricula places purposely flood our tv and radio with advertising about how easy and hands off it is, so we have more than parents to blame for that crazy expectation.

 

I remember when DVD programs hit mainstream, advertised the same way as all this online stuff, and I remember the same problems. People basicly thought their kid could just be lectured via DVD for all their schooling and that was all the kid got to do for home schooling.

 

When someone tells me they want to home school but don't want to teach or plan or anything that real home schooling no matter what philosophy is used requires - I tell them the truth. What they want is to send their kid to a school. Because nothing that important is ever going to be that cheap and easy.

 

If they can, hey that's great. I'm downright envious of that because I could sure use more knitting time. But I've yet to see it happen. I don't care where kids are learning, they need parental involvement and accountability to make it happen the majority of the time. And I HATE it when they say their kid is smart and/or responsible so doesn't need such things. One, gee thanks for the backhanded insult. Two, what a load of crap. Everyone needs encouragement, direction, feedback, and accountability at some point and nearly everyone needs it until high school.

 

As for being concerned...

 

Not really. Their kid and their education decision. Plus, in my city the highschool has switched almost entirely online in classrooms so one can only hope they buy better for at home than there is at public school. Just the other day a young man at the local high school was saying how he took the online exam in class and the test screwed up and gave him an A bc he got 10 out of 10 completed answers correct. Problem was, there were 100 questions, 90 of which he hadn't answered at all. Teacher saw it but can't do anything about it, so yay for him bc he was confident he was striving to get a C.😖

Edited January 18, 2017 by Murphy101

[Amy in NH]

.

 

2) An exam would solve the problem at the colleges but it's not going to solve the problem of kids who are supposedly high school graduates who aren't even prepared for remedial CC. Where do they go? Private tutors? Those cost money and someone who can't succeed in remedial classes probably isn't making the kind of money to afford them. GED classes? But they have a diploma. Self-education? Sure, but only practically attained by the extremely ambitious.

They really don't have a diploma. A homeschool diploma is only worth the paper it's printed on. Public and some private school diplomas have actual value because those schools are accredited by independent agencies which verify and therefore guarantee a level of rigor.

 

So, yes, adult education/GED courses would best serve those students "graduating" from home ed programs with a substandard education.

[Guest]

I only occasionally get glimpses of the extremist underbelly of the homeschooling world. My family homeschooled off and on, it was just one education option among many that my parents took advantage of, including public schools, private schools, and even boarding school. Education was extremely important in both my immediate and extended family, it was just assumed that all of us kids would go to college.

 

When I started looking into homeschool as an option for my own kids I would read blogs and such about large, religiously devout families homeschooling. That felt completely familiar and normal. I've really only learned on this board about things like the Gothard movement with their odd restrictive ideas. It never occurred to me that there were folks out there refusing to send daughters to college, or avoiding any mention of evolution, or not registering their children's births.

 

I actually think that the surface similarities to my own upbringing made all of that harder to perceive.

100% this, especially the bolded. The similarities make it so much harder to see, and it creates a bit of cognitive dissonance because it *does* look, on the surface, like plenty of things that are comfortable and normal in a conservative religious environment. I had no idea 95% of the insane stuff was around until this board, because I'd never been exposed to it. Lucky, I guess.

 

I really think that's how these controlling whack jobs work though - insinuate themselves with things that look or sound appealing or are even true, then twist it all and warp it to their own ends and snare people in the process. Gross.

[Murphy101]

They really don't have a diploma. A homeschool diploma is only worth the paper it's printed on. Public and some private school diplomas have actual value because those schools are accredited by independent agencies which verify and therefore guarantee a level of rigor.

 

So, yes, adult education/GED courses would best serve those students "graduating" from home ed programs with a substandard education.

Pfft. Someone needs to sue those guaranteeing agencies then bc they suck at their job in my state. Over 50% of our graduating students who even try to attend CC straight out of high school have to take remedial math and English, their diplomas aren't worth the paper it's printed on either imnsho.

[TranquilMind]

Community colleges here do not require SAT or ACT scores. You take a placement test and many kids are steered into remedial level courses. Here the English placement test is a low enough bar that you end up with students in college level classes who can't write a decent paragraph. One good thing here though is the Adult Basic Education classes are cheap (in many cases free) and they don't start using their financial aid eligibility.

I see. Well, I would think as a parent, you would want to do this for your kids anyway.   If low income, you can get a waiver on costs, as I recall.

 

I guess I don't understand sending your kids to college without ever having them do any standardized testing, even if only for your own knowledge as to where their gaps were. 

[poppy]

My homeschool-graduate university student was required to take SAT subject tests in math, chemistry, and physics. They additionally had 30 college credits from DE they took over the course of their high school career. We didn't blink twice at the expectation of proof of rigor in our home ed program.

 

IMO, the college you are referencing needs to set higher expectations. But the fact is that many schools are willing to take any warm body that will pay tuition. That is not a homeschool fail.

 

But to answer the op, yes I am concerned because I think this lackadaisical attitude of many parents toward a home education will eventually lead to onerous regulations for all of us.

 

That's part of the idea of American opportunity, isn't it? Access to higher education for anyone who dreams of it.  Even if you secondary education was lousy.  So if you can't go to college, here's an easier option. If the easier option is too hard, here are some "make up" (remedial) classes to get you up to speed. 

 

If you fail the remedial classes, THAT is on you and your parents.  And the previous poster said she had seen a much higher rate of that kind of failure with homeschool kids.  So that's the "homeschool fail" in question here.

 

Thing is, if a kid goes to a badly run high school and performs poorly.... she definitely  knows she performed poorly.  I'm not as sure these homeschool grads have that insight.   I don't know, I haven't homeschooled a teen.  I"m sure some do. But I'm willing to guess there are some who have no clue.

[kiana]

IMO, the college you are referencing needs to set higher expectations. But the fact is that many schools are willing to take any warm body that will pay tuition. That is not a homeschool fail.

 

I consider it a homeschool fail when a kid of average or higher intelligence is so underprepared that they can't even function in remedial classes. 

 

It's interesting that so many (not just you) have been jumping in with the "well your school needs to just not admit them". I don't see how this is going to solve the problem of these students being so unprepared that they aren't even able to succeed in remedial classes. I mean, it will make it so that I don't observe the problem because they'll be out working at a gas station somewhere, but that's not going to solve the problem of a capable child denied access to a basic education.

[Bluegoat]

I consider it a homeschool fail when a kid of average or higher intelligence is so underprepared that they can't even function in remedial classes. 

 

It's interesting that so many (not just you) have been jumping in with the "well your school needs to just not admit them". I don't see how this is going to solve the problem of these students being so unprepared that they aren't even able to succeed in remedial classes. I mean, it will make it so that I don't observe the problem because they'll be out working at a gas station somewhere, but that's not going to solve the problem of a capable child denied access to a basic education.

 

Yeah, I wondered this as well.

 

It might work in a kind of roundabout way.  If kids were not even able to get in to university, parents and school boards might be forced to sit up and notice. 

 

It also might be good from the perspective of the universities, to have students who are ready to do that work.  (And I don't so much mean from a business perspective as from the point of view of fulfilling their primary social function.)

 

 

But, it seems a little indirect as a way to improve public education.  I'd tend to apply my energy directly to the ps system.

[maize]

My inclination in terms of motivating homeschooling parents would be to provide more in the way of flexible support and incentives. My state has no testing or reporting requirements for registered homeschoolers, but it does have the options of part-time public school enrollment, participation in extracurriculars, dual enrollment, vo-tech enrollment, and flexible charter schools (of the sort where there is some oversight but parents can choose curriculum). Most of the home educating families I know take advantage of at least some of these options. I have one of my children in a charter school that does have weekly assignments, so less flexibility than I prefer but she is enrolled because they provide excellent IEP support including four hours of dyslexia tutoring via Skype every week and a speech therapist who comes to our house. I'm willing to jump through some hoops and meet some outside expectations in order to access better educational resources for my kids, and this seems to be true of the majority of home educators in my community. Most of us really do want to make it possible for our kids to succeed. Suggestions of more stringent homeschooling laws get people's hackles up, but opportunities and benefits do not.

Edited January 18, 2017 by maize

[Lecka]

To the original question, yes it bothers me.

 

We have a close relative who missed out on a lot with his education.

 

But I can't say it is a "homeschool" issue as it began with public school and the parents' lack of interest in providing any support or transportation (basically signed him up for a charter where they would need to drive him and then just didn't take him often enough that he fell behind).

 

So when that is the prequel to pulling a kid to homeschool, the "homeschooling" was about as much as you might guess.

 

Dad often said it didn't matter if child got a high school diploma, a GED was all Dad had needed.

 

Even though Dad was in the military and should know they often cap GED applicants and it is seen as lower than a high school diploma.

 

They ended up getting him into a Christian high school that was unaccredited and so he got a diploma and joined the military.

 

But he would be so behind to go to community college, and it closes a lot of doors for him, when his mom didn't get out of bed to drive him to school let alone provide other support or encouragement.

 

They are loving parents, he still had a good upbringing and is a good person as an adult.

 

But education was not valued and they were tired and stressed out during the years when he could have used some support and transportation.

[kiana]

My inclination in terms of motivating homeschooling parents would be to provide more in the way of flexible support and incentives. My state has no testing or reporting requirements for registered homeschoolers, but it does have the options of part-time public school enrollment, participation in extracurriculars, dual enrollment, vo-tech enrollment, and flexible charter schools (of the sort where there is some oversight but parents can choose curriculum). Most of the home educating families I know take advantage of at least some of these options. I have one of my children in a charter school that does have weekly assignments, so less flexibility than I prefer but she is enrolled because they provide excellent IEP support including four hours of dyslexia tutoring via Skype every week and a speech therapist who comes to our house. I'm willing to jump through some hoops and meet some outside expectations in order to access better educational resources for my kids, and this seems to be true of the majority of home educators in my community. Most of us really do want to make it possible for our kids to succeed. Suggestions of more stringent homeschooling laws get people's hackles up, but opportunities and benefits do not.

 

I do very much like the idea of more flexible support and incentives available and optional. I loathe the all-or-nothing confrontational attitude common in many areas. 

[Bluegoat]

As far as the idea of not asking things of hs students that we ask of ps students - I think that's a good principle.  It does though I think actually allow a fair bit - most ps students have things like mandatory registration, testing, requirements around remidial work for students falling behind, and so on.  Also sometimes things like eye tests or vaccinations.

 

I also think that because of differences in being at home vs school, sometimes accomplishing the same thing might look rather different.  In ps, they don't need to fill out a curriculum outline for each kid, as they are generally all the same and they system already has that info.  Now, it may be that isn't useful information to have about hs students, but it is in line, I think, with what they have for ps students.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I wonder if some of the underprepared homeschooler phenomena isn't more regional? I live in a very literate educated area and that seems to be reflected in the homeschool population. I've only heard of one homeschool fail in my circle and that was because of mental illness.

 

My state does require one homeschool parent have a college degree or to attend a state provided "how to homeschool " course. I know someone who took the course and she said it was a pretty good overview of homeschooling methods and teaching techniques.

 

I think that if you have educated parents, you are more likely to have a culture of education in the home.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Anne in CA]

How caring, to spend so much effort creating domestic violence for their girls!

 

Because what else could happen? What kind of man wants to marry that kind of girl? :( :ack2:

I think that Doug Wilson found out that no one wanted to marry the doormat girls the  quiver full movement was raising. Even Quiver full men didn't want them. I believe very few of these girl get married unless they had money behind them. Abusers want strong women to subdue. Even abusers didn't want these girls. It was just heartbreaking.

[Anne in CA]

I wonder if some of the underprepared homeschooler phenomena isn't more regional? I live in a very literate educated area and that seems to be reflected in the homeschool population. I've only heard of one homeschool fail in my circle and that was because of mental illness.

 

My state does require one homeschool parent have a college degree or to attend a state provided "how to homeschool " course. I know someone who took the course and she said it was a pretty good overview of homeschooling methods and teaching techniques.

 

I think that if you have educated parents, you are more likely to have a culture of education in the home.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm pretty sure it is very regional. Where I am from in Oregon all the home school families I knew were far advanced from the local public schools and mostly ahead of private schools too. My dd shadowed a friend at the best private school in our area for a day and was horrified at how much easier their school work was than hers. There was one rigorous classical high school in the area that went under, because their religious rules were too egregious. I suspect they were very advanced. Even the unschoolers that I knew in my old area were surpassing public school as it was at the time. I do think NCLB improved many of the aspects of public school where I lived. It was extremely bad for a while but the overall culture where I lived valued education very much.

[fairfarmhand]

That's part of the idea of American opportunity, isn't it? Access to higher education for anyone who dreams of it.  Even if you secondary education was lousy.  So if you can't go to college, here's an easier option. If the easier option is too hard, here are some "make up" (remedial) classes to get you up to speed. 

 

If you fail the remedial classes, THAT is on you and your parents.  And the previous poster said she had seen a much higher rate of that kind of failure with homeschool kids.  So that's the "homeschool fail" in question here.

 

Thing is, if a kid goes to a badly run high school and performs poorly.... she definitely  knows she performed poorly.  I'm not as sure these homeschool grads have that insight.   I don't know, I haven't homeschooled a teen.  I"m sure some do. But I'm willing to guess there are some who have no clue.

 

Um... to the bolded...maybe. Maybe not. MY dd was surprised at how many public schooled students were shocked that they really didn't know algebra. They got straight As in high school. Made it to college calculus and were stumped. Her professor continually said "I can't teach algebra. This is calculus class. If you don't know the algebra, I can't help you."

 

My dd felt SO sorry for these kids who thought they were prepared and were not. She said that many of them understood how to punch things in on a calculator but had no conceptual understanding of how the stuff worked.

 

She didn't get a graphing calculator till the last quarter of her senior year, mostly because my engineer husband said "I made it through 5 years of engineering school without a graphing calculator. She can learn math without it." I think that helped her learn the basic algebra on a conceptual level before using the calculator.

 

ETA: My dd made good money in tutoring basic algebra...

Edited January 18, 2017 by fairfarmhand

[Guest]

I wonder if some of the underprepared homeschooler phenomena isn't more regional? I live in a very literate educated area and that seems to be reflected in the homeschool population. I've only heard of one homeschool fail in my circle and that was because of mental illness.

 

My state does require one homeschool parent have a college degree or to attend a state provided "how to homeschool " course. I know someone who took the course and she said it was a pretty good overview of homeschooling methods and teaching techniques.

 

I think that if you have educated parents, you are more likely to have a culture of education in the home.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think some of this is very much regional, yes. I'm in one of the lowest regulation states with a ton of homeschoolers and home based charter. I cannot say I have witnessed educational neglect, I can't think of an example locally. There have been some stories of abuse, no education at home or elsewhere, and reports rurally of insufficient oversight and problems from it, but they're the rare exception and span two decades of recollection. I know the foster system sees a lot of this in conjunction with substance abuse and mental illness too. But the bulk of homeschoolers seem to do well or excellent.

[Rosie_0801]

I think that Doug Wilson found out that no one wanted to marry the doormat girls the  quiver full movement was raising. Even Quiver full men didn't want them. I believe very few of these girl get married unless they had money behind them. Abusers want strong women to subdue. Even abusers didn't want these girls. It was just heartbreaking.

 

:ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

 

No education and not even allowed to stay home and have babies. :(

 

Oh, wait. They are allowed to stay home and wait on Daddy. :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

[Anne in CA]

It'll serve those daddies right when they are old and broke because they supported these young women and didn't save for retirement, which was also an issue for unhappy Quiver Full families leaving those beliefs. 

[LucyStoner]

I wonder if some of the underprepared homeschooler phenomena isn't more regional? I live in a very literate educated area and that seems to be reflected in the homeschool population. I've only heard of one homeschool fail in my circle and that was because of mental illness.

 

My state does require one homeschool parent have a college degree or to attend a state provided "how to homeschool " course. I know someone who took the course and she said it was a pretty good overview of homeschooling methods and teaching techniques.

 

I think that if you have educated parents, you are more likely to have a culture of education in the home.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The education requirement in our state for homeschooling parents isn't a college degree. It's 45 college credits (on the quarter system). That is approximately 1 year of college and there is no requirement as to what those credits contain or where they come from.

 

I definitely saw more than a couple uneducated homeschool kids in my high school in 1994-1998. I've known others as well, especially when it comes to people expecting self taught math.

 

I have mixed feelings about how much can realistically be done to protect students in situations where their parent or guardian is, for whatever reason, not willing or able to provide a solid education. I don't know what the answer is or that there is one.

[FaithManor]

 

If you fail the remedial classes, THAT is on you and your parents. And the previous poster said she had seen a much higher rate of that kind of failure with homeschool kids. So that's the "homeschool fail" in question here.

 

Thing is, if a kid goes to a badly run high school and performs poorly.... she definitely knows she performed poorly. I'm not as sure these homeschool grads have that insight. I don't know, I haven't homeschooled a teen. I"m sure some do. But I'm willing to guess there are some who have no clue.

Many have no clue. They have listened to there parents say "anything we so is better than the PS" all their lives and believe it. Then they meet students with AP's, DE, testing right into the classes they need in order to start right away on the path to graduate regularly in 4 or in 5 out of honors or with a master's and BAM it is a slap in the face.

 

The ps kids who were honor roll and have to take remedial also experience it though usually not to the same level because for the most part teachers and parents have not bragged smugly about "anything our school does is better than everyone else's" and at least locally, most of the high schoolers are aware of the state ranking of their high schools since it is all over social media along with a lot of other statistics, SAT averages, college matriculation, etc. If they are college bound, most of them have been pointed to these statistics to take a look at. A few years ago the local PS also started making juniors meet with the head of the math department to be told point blank what the likelihood was that the student would or would not test out of remedial math. So someone is hinting at reality before they apply.

 

We do have a local ACE school here. They do not teach much of anything well, math in particular so the composite average is 19, with math average at 17. They do better in reading comp and english but not a lot better. These kids end up with that same slap in the face because the church that runs it tells them how much better educated they are than the PS students. NOT!

 

I have met my fair share of homeschool ones that are clueless as to their real skill level...far more within homeschooling locally than public school. Part of that goes with the sheltering/hiding out aspect of the fundamentalists. The kids and parents are unaware of what many college bound students are capable of.

[LucyStoner]

Um... to the bolded...maybe. Maybe not. MY dd was surprised at how many public schooled students were shocked that they really didn't know algebra. They got straight As in high school. Made it to college calculus and were stumped. Her professor continually said "I can't teach algebra. This is calculus class. If you don't know the algebra, I can't help you."

 

My dd felt SO sorry for these kids who thought they were prepared and were not. She said that many of them understood how to punch things in on a calculator but had no conceptual understanding of how the stuff worked.

 

She didn't get a graphing calculator till the last quarter of her senior year, mostly because my engineer husband said "I made it through 5 years of engineering school without a graphing calculator. She can learn math without it." I think that helped her learn the basic algebra on a conceptual level before using the calculator.

 

ETA: My dd made good money in tutoring basic algebra...

Like your daughter I made good money in college tutoring remedial math.

 

That said, I don't think needing a couple of remedial classes is a sign that the student is destined to fail or that they can't obtain a college degree. I had tutoring students who later got degrees that required as least some college level math. I have a friend who took 3 remedial math classes before being ready for college level math and he's a successful IT manager now.

 

Dr. Martin Luther King was a student who arrived at college and discovered that despite being at the top of his high school class he needed remedial work in some subject areas like writing. The segregated school he had attended didn't have high enough level coursework.

[LucyStoner]

As someone with two degrees and working on a third, I am absolutely against requiring that a homeschool parent have a college degree. Way to deprive the less privileged of educational choice!

Those who don't have 1 year of college have to attend a parent qualifying course OR work with a teacher (via a public school program for homeschoolers or a for hire homeschool evaluator with a teaching credential) OR obtain a waiver. The parent qualifying course costs maybe $40-60, are usually offered by veteran homeschoolers and are available to take in person or online. I think I've even seen a couple that are free or $10. I don't know of anyone in the state Jean and I live in who is prevented from homeschooling because they don't have that year of college.

 

That said, I also don't know all that many parents who homeschool here that don't clear the requirement with their own college credits. Many parents with the college credits or advanced degrees opt to take the parent qualifying course anyways. It's an area where people tend to like to do a lot of research and collect a lot of information.

Edited January 18, 2017 by LucyStoner