17-year-old abused by police officer; suffers brain damage during traffic stop

[hornblower]

We've told him never trust law enforcement.  Treat them like you would a bear.  Don't run. Don't make sudden movements.  Make sure you keep eye contact if possible.  In addition to that, definitely do what they tell you and say 'yes ma'am and yes sir.'   Never argue with them.  If possible, remember their name.  If they ever draw a gun on you, hands up and starting begging for your life. 

 

They're not much better up here as down there, IMO.  The last LEO I'd ever want to f*ck with is a Mountie, that's for sure.  They take no shit whatsoever. 

 

it's sad it has to be like this but it's better to live &  sue / go public later than to die. It's like this G&M article says: 

 

"Rusonik says it’s often better to co-operate so the confrontation doesn’t escalate. Rights complaints can be sorted out later.

 

“Kiss the officer’s ass,†Rusonik says. “And get it on video if you can.†

 

I hate the machismo/swagger/attitude of cops now. 

I hate that so many are fat. No wonder they shoot suspects - there's no way they can catch anyone because they can't run a block. 

I hate that they throw their weight around & we're so scared that we just yes ma'm and yes sir & let them get away with it. 

 

 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

As I said before, I think the media has made it look like police brutality happens more often than it does. It does happen, but most of the interactions that citizens have with police do not involve police brutality. Most police officers are good cops/good people. And most of the time, when they ask you to roll down your window, they just want it to be easier to talk to you. When they ask you to step further off the freeway, they just want to minimize the risk of you getting hit by a car doing 80 on the interstate. Most of the time, the simple, reasonable requests are exactly that...simple reasonable requests. But when someone gets snotty, argumentative, and resistant, that is suspicious.

 

Most of the time, if an officer has pulled you over, he has a legal right to do so, most of the time. And, once he's pulled you over, asking you to roll down your window is not a violation of your rights

 

(and...i am using the "roll down your window" example the most only because I can't come up with another right off the top of my head. I am sure there are many other examples of simple requests that an officer might make)

I didn't say anything about brutality in that post.

I am referring to when the police do pull people over for fishing expeditions. If the officer cannot/will not articulate a legal reason for the stop (probable cause or reasonable suspicion), then there is no need for further interaction and the window does not need to be rolled down.

 

And frankly any police brutality is too much, and no, I don't believe the media is blowing it out of proportion.

[hornblower]

I didn't say the media is blowing it out of proportion, I said they are making it seem like it happens more often than it does.  It is a serious issue...but it's not something that happens in most police/citizen interactions. 

 

The stats I posted above seem to indicate it's pretty constant (as a percentage of interactions). I do think with more video, we're seeing more of it. As well, with some of the more egregious and scandalous cases, we have all been more sensitized to the issue. It would be worthwhile to work towards a reduction in those stats IMO, even if the #s are not increasing. 

[TechWife]

 

I hate that so many are fat. No wonder they shoot suspects - there's no way they can catch anyone because they can't run a block. 

 

 

 

I don't think I've seen an overweight police officer in years. The departments I'm familiar with seem to take fitness seriously. I know our local department is very fit and they participate in many athletic events in our area as well. 

[hornblower]

I don't think I've seen an overweight police officer in years. The departments I'm familiar with seem to take fitness seriously. I know our local department is very fit and they participate in many athletic events in our area as well. 

 

 

" Among nine Midwestern states in the U.S., nearly 83% of police officers were overweight (BMI > 25) , and similar findings were reported among retired police officers from Milwaukee (85% with a BMI > 25) (Ramey et al., 2009), which is much greater than the percentage of U.S. adults who are overweight or obese (66%)."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734369/

 

I think it really depends on the culture of individual towns & how the department views the issue. For ex, this town is trying to stem the tide : Fire, Army & Law Enforcement battle the bulge to keep El Paso safe. 

[Farrar]

" Among nine Midwestern states in the U.S., nearly 83% of police officers were overweight (BMI > 25) , and similar findings were reported among retired police officers from Milwaukee (85% with a BMI > 25) (Ramey et al., 2009), which is much greater than the percentage of U.S. adults who are overweight or obese (66%)."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734369/

 

I think it really depends on the culture of individual towns & how the department views the issue. For ex, this town is trying to stem the tide : Fire, Army & Law Enforcement battle the bulge to keep El Paso safe. 

 

I passed by some cops yesterday and they were like the most mismatched pair ever - older, shortish, very heavy white woman and tall, young, skinny black man. They were responding to some injury of a guy on the soccer field. They ignored the guys trying to decide what to do with the pot they were smoking as they came down the sidewalk (marijuana is legal here mostly).

 

Anyway, just to say, I see cops here of all shapes, including a lot of overweight cops. Of course, size and fitness don't have a direct correlation.

[Farrar]

I get really sick of the "most cops are good people" narrative. It's not that I think that's not true. I think it is. But it's not an answer to the problem. It excuses the problem of police brutality as being about "bad apples." But that's not the issue. I think the stresses of the job, the training received, the culture of the police, the lack of understanding of civil rights, the methods of policing, etc. etc. are all bigger factors in an officer using excessive force than the person being "good" or "bad."

 

It's a systems problem. It's not a people being good or evil problem. As such, focusing on a "most police are good people" narrative obscures the problem. It implies we're helpless to do anything about it other than, maybe, to try and weed out the "bad" people. But I don't accept that. I think changing training, giving officers more support, changing police methods, etc. etc. are all potentially solutions - ones that benefit the officers and the people.

[HomeAgain]

I would like to point out that the words 'law enforcement' rarely, if ever, conjure up an image of a soldier at war when we take them at face value.  Yet that is what our law enforcement has become. Even the word 'police' means to patrol, to supervise and maintain order.   It is frightening to me to see such a warped definition.  The more attention paid to it, the better.

[Farrar]

I am not harping on the "most cops are good" narrative to hide the problem or excuse it.  I am harping on it because as wrong as it is for a cop to ASSUME that someone you pulled over is a criminal....it's EQUALLY as wrong to ASSUME that the cop that pulled you over is asking you to roll down your window because he is violating the 4th amendment.

 

If the cop pulls you over, he says "do you know why I pulled you over" and you say "no" and he says "you were speeding, can you please roll down your window" the first response should not be "why the F do you want me to roll down the window."  It shouldn't even be..."how fast did you clock me."  Just roll down the window. 

 

MOST of the time, The vast majority of the time, when a cop pulls you over....you aren't at risk.  You should still take the easy steps of protection, like pulling over in a well lit area etc.  But...don't go so far as to assume that every simple request comes from a place of malice.

 

Really? Do you really think the 17 yo kid who said, "Am I under arrest? Can I see a warrant? Do you really have a right to search me?" is EQUALLY wrong as the cop who dragged him out of the car, tased him, threw him down on the ground, and caused him to suffer a heart attack and permanent brain damage? They're EQUALLY wrong?

[Farrar]

False equivalence. That's the one I'm looking for.

 

I blame the media for setting everything up to be an "equal" debate between opposing sides. Stop it, media!

[justasque]

Just watched the video.  I do not understand this cop's actions at. all.  He just pulled the kid over, dragged him out of the car, and tazed him.  What for?  Why was getting him out of the car necessary?  The boy could clearly hear him.  I assume he could hear the boy, as we could hear him on the dashcam of the car behind him.  Why couldn't the cop just proceed with the purpose of the traffic stop?  The boy wasn't threatening him in any way.  He was asking reasonable questions, clearly and politely.  The cop could have answered them, clearly and politely.  He didn't need to escalate.

[Farrar]

I'm still stuck on the idea that anyone who questions the police is EQUALLY (all caps, of course) wrong as the cop who uses excessive force.

 

The mind boggles. This is why we can't have good things, people. And, in particular, why we can't have peace. 

[Farrar]

Nope.  No I don't.  I think that THIS cop, in THIS situation is the one in the wrong.  Given that he was in jail, I just assumed that was a given.

 

I am speaking about...generally (which is a word I have used in most of my posts)....when person X gets pulled over...it's WRONG to assume that the cop that pulled them over is going to violate their rights. 

 

But that's all this kid did. He assumed the cop was going to violate his rights. He questioned the cop. And then, the cop brutally disabled him for the rest of his life for having done so. And you said it was equally wrong of the kid to assume that. You don't want to rethink your statement? The kid turned out to be beyond right. The cop turned out to be beyond horrible. He didn't just violate this kid's constitutional rights, he caused him permanent brain damage.

[Anne in CA]

I don't think I've seen an overweight police officer in years. The departments I'm familiar with seem to take fitness seriously. I know our local department is very fit and they participate in many athletic events in our area as well. 

Boy, you don't see what I've seen.

[justasque]

...

That doesn't mean that if I get pulled over on Sunday when I am driving to Indy, I should assume that a cop has pulled me over for nefarious reasons and that I shouldn't roll down the window when he asks. 

 

Not everyone has the privilege that you do, to assume that a cop will treat them with kid gloves.

There's a lot of history in this country about who gets to assume that and who doesn't.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Nope...I did NOT say anyone who QUESTIONS the police is as wrong as a cop who uses excessive force. I said going into a traffic stop assuming that a cop is going to violate your rights is as wrong as a cop going into a stop assuming the person they pulled over is a criminal.

 

Absolutely people should question the police if they feel their rights have been violated.

 

 

Asking a person to roll their window down (or put out their cigarette or whatever else) is not a violation of the person's rights..

As a citizen, you do have the right to question the police for the purpose of your stop. Doing so is not making any assumptions at the police officer, and a good officer should respond appropriately.

 

The problem is too many cops act as if someone exercising their rights is an assault on their authority.

[Caroline]

Yes, it's true some folks are more likely to have their rights violated by police.

 

 

Those folks are still more likely to be injured in a car wreck than they are to be injured by a cop.

But the likelihood to be injured by a cop who pulls them over should be none! Not just less than being injured in a car accident.

[MrsBasil]

Yes, it's true some folks are more likely to have their rights violated by police.

 

 

Those folks are still more likely to be injured in a car wreck than they are to be injured by a cop.

 

Why are you minimizing it?  Who cares if people are more likely to be in a car wreck than injured by a cop?  Why can't the fact that some people are wrongly injured or killed by police stand on its own?  It doesn't need a hundred disclaimers of "well most cops are good people", "if only they had done XYZ they would be alive/healthy today"? 

 

Do you understand how that sounds like you are minimizing the fact that it did happen and has changed the course of many, many people's lives.

 

I don't care if most police are "good apples", as soon as those good apples start handing out excuse after excuse for the brain damage of a 17 year old boy, the death of a 11 year old, or what have you they don't sound like good apples. 

[Caroline]

But it's not.

 

Because we live among human beings.

 

Human beings are not perfect. Some are even evil.

 

We should take steps to ensure that evil human beings don't become cops. We should take steps to help cops avoid mistakes.

 

We should not expect human beings to be perfect.

I guess I sont understand the purpose of your comparison. it makes no sense.

[justasque]

The fact that this kid was injured doesn't mean you will be.  Acting as if every cop is dangerous puts us all in dangerous situations.  It pits cops agains citizens instead of cops against robbers.  Go into a traffic stop assuming the cop is looking out for your best interest AS WELL as looking out for your own best interest is best practice, IMO. 

 

ALL of which means...if the cop pulls you over and says "roll your window down some more"  just do it.  Don't tell him no under the assumption than he's asking this because he wants to violate your rights. 

 

The kid didn't act as if the cop was going to violate his rights.  He just asked, over and over again, as politely as possible under the circumstances, "Am I under arrest?".  That is a reasonable question.  That is a question that many, many people who teach kids how to behave when being arrested suggest that the kids ask.  It's pretty much THE standard question when a cop asks you to do stuff.  "Am I under arrest?"  "Am I being detained?"  It's an important question to ask to protect your rights in case things go wrong later.  It's an important question to ask because the answer makes a difference as to when you need to comply with an officer's "request" and when you are under no legal obligation to do so.  It's a reasonable question.  And the cop didn't answer.  And he should have.  

  

[Lolly]

I told my 20 yr old the same thing my parents told me.  Respect the officer and protect yourself.  If you see flashing lights in your rearview when you are on a dark side road, put your hazards on and slowly drive to a well lit area/public parking lot.  You have no idea if that person is a real officer or an imposter.  That point was actually really driven home when I was about 20.  I was in college and a student at my college who was like 2 yrs behind me disappeared.  She had left her job at 11pm and headed home down some darker side roads (darker as in semi rural, not darker as in seedy.)  Her car was found on the side of the road, running, door hanging open, her purse still in side.  There was lots of speculation about what happened, did someone rear end her, did she stop to help someone, and yes, part of the speculation was did someone "pull her over" by impersonating a cop.  There were news stories where cops would specifically recommend that if you are getting pulled over in those situations, put your flashers on and drive to the nearest well lit public space.  (her body was found a few days later, they didn't find the murderer until a few months later, but I don't know that it was ever discovered how he got her)

 

Anyway, that's the first thing, is to pull over in a well lit public area or parking lot.  Second, keep your hands on the wheel or otherwise out where the officer can see them.  The officer handles criminals every day and has no idea who the next criminal might be and he might just assume it's you, so keep your hands out.  Be respectful and use yes sir or yes ma'am, please and thank you, etc.  Also, keep your purse out in the open, so that if you do get pulled over, the officer can see it when you reach for your wallet etc.   Don't make any "sudden moves."  If you need to do something unusual (like I had my dd at 18, so I frequently had her in the car, so if I needed to give the baby her pacifier, that sort of thing) make sure the officer knows what you are doing.  Generally speaking, do what you are told.  Don't get out of the car unless he tells you to, but if he tells you to, get out. 

 

Exactly what I did when I was being pulled over at night. Result: charges of fleeing and not yielding/obeying an official vehicle with emergency lights. This is not an insignificant offense. I was driving all of 15 mph while I drove to the first well lit public area. When taken to trial, I brought in copies from multiple law enforcement sites, including the one in which the offense happened. The judge told me it didn't matter. What I did was illegal. I must IMMEDIATELY pull over to the side of the road. Being that I was a well educated adult of obvious decent status in the community whose thoughts sometimes are quite obvious on their face, he did decide to dismiss that charge at the last minute (when my obvious thought of going public on the television and newspaper were written across my disbelieving face). He, the judge, knows all of these state troopers. He has the to his home for bbq's. They are officers of the law who are to be trusted and would never do anything to harm the public. (His words.) Ironically, one of their fellow officers was arrested for raping a woman at a rural traffic stop two weeks later. Turns out, it wasn't the first time he had done it. It was all I could do not to mail the #@@# judge the newspaper article. Figure he would have come after me for some trumped up charge if I did.

 

Still, it is good advice. I would do it again in the same circumstances. However, the new recommendation is to call 911 on the cell phone to let them know you are traveling to a safe location. They can relay it to the police officers who are following you. (If the 911 goes to the right area, I have heard that can be a problem with cell phones.)

 

As far as this event goes, I don't care that officers are often in the line of fire and are nervous at stops. It is part of their job. If the citizen is acting within their rights, the officer should be required to maintain a calm and reasonable attitude. It is part of their job. It should be expected. The safety of the citizen is above the safety of the officer. In my opinion, when the officer decides on his career, he is agreeing to this. I think most officers would agree. If they do not, I do not think that they should be allowed to be in that profession.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Lolly

[Miss Peregrine]

 

 

Still, it is good advice. I would do it again in the same circumstances. However, the new recommendation is to call 911 on the cell phone to let them know you are traveling to a safe location. They can relay it to the police officers who are following you. (If the 911 goes to the right area, I have heard that can be a problem with cell phones.)

Will they then cite you for talking on your cell while driving, too? Lol.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. That's BS.

[Lolly]

Will they then cite you for talking on your cell while driving, too? Lol.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. That's BS.

 

Probably if you are a teenager. Just an additional charge and $ for them! Me, I was old enough to talk on my cell while driving...at least in this state!

Edited June 11, 2016 by Lolly

[Miss Peregrine]

Probably if you are a teenager. Just an additional charge and $ for them! Me, I was old enough to talk on my cell while driving...

It's illegal here.

[happi duck]

 

...

 

As far as this event goes, I don't care that officers are often in the line of fire and are nervous at stops. It is part of their job. If the citizen is acting within their rights, the officer should be required to maintain a calm and reasonable attitude. It is part of their job. It should be expected. The safety of the citizen is above the safety of the officer. In my opinion, when the officer decides on his career, he is agreeing to this. I think most officers would agree. If they do not, I do not think that they should be allowed to be in that profession.

Ita!

 

Rant on:

 

The advice to suck up to cops because their jobs are stressful makes my head hurt.

 

Well, the *kid*, the civilian, should just roll down his window more...what about the supposedly well trained professional sucks it up and deals with it calmly...without disabling the kid.

 

The puffed up "I'm the man! Respect me or else!" attitude is upsetting.

 

I'll protect and serve...as long as you suck up.

 

Rant off.

 

.

Edited June 11, 2016 by happi duck

[Anne in CA]

I suppose I am prejudiced in this case. I used to be a bartender. My car used to be parked outside a bar. All. Night. Long. Guess how many times I got pulled over???? A lot??? Because a cop had seen my car parked outside  a bar for hours. Do I have a lot of respect for cops who do their jobs.... Yes. Do I have ultimate trust in any police force??? No. I had to be very clear to  many cops that I was not a potential victim because my care was outside XYZ bar for a gazillion hours every night. My mom is the a Democrat club prez. In a state like Oregon where everybody votes, her name pulls a lot of weight. Is that why I was not taken advantage of in the middle of the night by a cop? Yeah. Not everybody has that failsafe. Do I Respect the police? Yes, they do a dangerous job day and in day out. Do plenty of them abuse their authority? Yes. No question. 

[melmichigan]

Wasn't the window broken? I thought the mother could be heard yelling about it being broken at the end of the video.

[scoutingmom]

I am not harping on the "most cops are good" narrative to hide the problem or excuse it. I am harping on it because as wrong as it is for a cop to ASSUME that someone you pulled over is a criminal....it's EQUALLY as wrong to ASSUME that the cop that pulled you over is asking you to roll down your window because he is violating the 4th amendment.

 

If the cop pulls you over, he says "do you know why I pulled you over" and you say "no" and he says "you were speeding, can you please roll down your window" the first response should not be "why the F do you want me to roll down the window." It shouldn't even be..."how fast did you clock me." Just roll down the window.

 

MOST of the time, The vast majority of the time, when a cop pulls you over....you aren't at risk. You should still take the easy steps of protection, like pulling over in a well lit area etc. But...don't go so far as to assume that every simple request comes from a place of malice.

Guess I'm wierd, but my window gets rolled down as soon as I have the car in park.... long before the officer would generally be at the door. I'm usually getting the insurance and registration out of the glove compartment, although I guess maybe that might not be the best plan. Not that I get stopped a lot.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[scoutingmom]

Probably if you are a teenager. Just an additional charge and $ for them! Me, I was old enough to talk on my cell while driving...at least in this state!

In the news here about a person getting a fine for texting in a drive thru (Tim Hortons... a coffee shop). Fines are huge and demerits which affects registration and insurance rates... unless you are using a hands free device of course.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think what happened to that boy was horrific. It also seems like this should not happen in America at all. I am also sick of the carp where the police say they or their dog has smelled pot. This is used as an excuse to search people and their car even when they did nothing to be pulled over in the first place. I have read articles on how police will pull folks over fishing for money by using the tactic of getting the so-called drug sniffing dogs which are wrong 50% of the time. The when the dog makes a so-called hit, they search the car and the person and maybe even bring them in to be arrested and of course take any money. This is outrageous. Pot needs to be legalized in all 50 states and the smell of pot should not be a reason to search someone at all unless they were driving erratically in the first place.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Here is an article to support what I have said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/25/how-oklahoma-cops-took-53000-from-a-burmese-christian-band-a-church-in-omaha-and-an-orphanage-in-thailand/

 

This is one of many articles I have read. The Post did a series of articles on this abuse from what I recall. Honestly, I think the drug war needs to end for all drugs. We should spend the money saved on education, prevention, and rehab.

[MercyA]

Here is an article to support what I have said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/25/how-oklahoma-cops-took-53000-from-a-burmese-christian-band-a-church-in-omaha-and-an-orphanage-in-thailand/

 

That is absolutely unbelievable.  :mad: So glad they got their money back.

[MercyA]

happysmileylady, I just wanted to say welcome to the forum. As you can see, we really like to hash things out. I've found that some of the people I respect most here are also those with whom I disagree on occasion, but it's all good.  :)

Allow me to offer you a virtual cupcake. 

[Harriet Vane]

It saddens me terribly when I read these threads, because there is so much disconnect. There is a serious lack of understanding for contexts other than your own.

 

I lived in a poverty-stricken, high-crime, African-American neighborhood for fourteen years. The next community over was a wealthy white community.

 

It is a fact that those who do not appear to be middle class are targeted and harassed by law enforcement, and it is a fact that people of color are targeted and harassed disproportionately. 

 

I realize that the kid in this incident is white.

 

Nevertheless, I just feel sad when people talk about just obeying officers, that there is nothing wrong with a "reasonable request." 

 

Actually, there IS something wrong with detaining people without cause. That is why there are laws about doing so. There IS something wrong with making requests to roll down the window or put out the cigarette--these are NOT reasonable requests unless the officer has identified a specific probable cause for detainment. 

 

Yes, I teach my kids to treat the officer like a wild animal. He is armed, and unfortunately I have personal friends who have been subjected to police brutality as well as police harassment. MANY TIMES. The fact is that power corrupts. The statistics on this are far, far inadequate, because many do not report. Many fear retaliation, and many are just glad to get away when the ugly interaction ends.

 

I say this even though a dear, dear friend of ours is a police officer. Frankly, my friend is the kind of LEO everyone in this thread wants, the kind we want them all to be. My friend is ethical, moral, kind, physically fit, decisive, slow to anger, and a real hero. When we were in college together, we all knew he would be the most amazing cop ever, and he totally is. He has a son with profound autism, and he is so very, very amazing in his care for him. The fact that officers like my friend exist does not negate the fact that there is a serious problem with police bullying. 

 

Don't kid yourself--your status (your appearance) as a middle-class housewife protects you far more than you know.

 

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes. 

[TechWife]

" Among nine Midwestern states in the U.S., nearly 83% of police officers were overweight (BMI > 25) , and similar findings were reported among retired police officers from Milwaukee (85% with a BMI > 25) (Ramey et al., 2009), which is much greater than the percentage of U.S. adults who are overweight or obese (66%)."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734369/

 

I think it really depends on the culture of individual towns & how the department views the issue. For ex, this town is trying to stem the tide : Fire, Army & Law Enforcement battle the bulge to keep El Paso safe. 

 

BMI isn't a true indicator of obesity in the case of an athletic person. Muscle weighs more than fat and that throws of the BMI calculation. I know several physically fit people who would not look healthy at all if all you look at is their BMI. If an officer exercises regularly, it's highly probable that BMI isn't an accurate indicator of their overall health. 

 

I do agree that physical fitness is a culture. I don't doubt that you've been exposed to overweight officers at all. However, I think any officer that takes their job seriously would want to stay in shape. After all, their own life may very well depend on it. 

[TechWife]

Nope...I did NOT say anyone who QUESTIONS the police is as wrong as a cop who uses excessive force.  I said going into a traffic stop assuming that a cop is going to violate your rights is as wrong as a cop going into a stop assuming the person they pulled over is a criminal. 

If a police officer does not have probable cause (think the person has committed a criminal act), then they shouldn't be pulling someone over.  Therefore, by definition, a police officer conducting a legitimate traffic stop assumes that the person they are pulling over is a criminal. Your statement makes no sense. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by TechWife

[mamaraby]

Well, these ones were more than what you usually see, as they were on top of their clothes, so fully visible and obvious, not the ones hidden under their uniforms.

FYI - Could have been an outer vest carrier. Traditionally vests are worn under the uniforrm shirt and all of their gear is worn on their belt. It's probably 30lbs of gear or so worn around the waist by the time it's all on. It's pretty hard on your back so now many agencies are moving toward an outer vest carrier and their gear moves from being centered on their waist to spread out. Less lower back strain. Kinda like the difference between carrying your kid on your hip or using some kind of sling/child carrier.

 

It does not indicate a different level of force, just a different way to wear and carry one's gear.

 

As for BMI being an indicator of whether or not an officer could run someone down? My dh would have an overweight BMI and yet is a runner. He has a pretty respectable half marathon finishing time and is pretty darn quick when it comes to shorter distances (mile, 5K, etc). I imagine he could outrun a number of people with normal BMIs. Not sure what one has to do with the other...

Edited June 11, 2016 by mamaraby

[hornblower]

Guys, the law enforcement agenices themselves are saying they have an issue with overweight and obese members.  

Unless someone is an *elite* athlete/bodybuilder, then yes, BMI does matter.  I'm aware though that with 66% of Americans being overweight or obese, there is great pressure to start saying that bmi 'doesn't matter'. 

Here are elite athletics types at the very upper range of normal. Unless a person looks like this, they're carrying too much fat. http://i.imgur.com/mqnjzGs.jpg

There a bunch of overweight or obese people in this photo http://ci.brillion.wi.us/media/128232/Brillion-Police-Department-2016_900x675.jpg

Edited June 11, 2016 by hornblower

[Miss Peregrine]

If a police officer does not have probable cause (think the person has committed a criminal act), then they shouldn't be pulling someone over. Therefore, by definition, a police officer conducting a legitimate traffic stop assumes that the person they are pulling over is a criminal. Your statement makes no sense.

I wouldn't call expired registration, a tail light out or even speeding criminal and I doubt most officers do.

[mamaraby]

Guys, the law enforcement agenices themselves are saying they have an issue with overweight and obese members.

 

Unless someone is an *elite* athlete/bodybuilder, then yes, BMI does matter. I'm aware though that with 66% of Americans being overweight or obese, there is great pressure to start saying that bmi 'doesn't matter'.

You made the claim that officers shoot because they're too fat to run and catch up with individuals. It's a non-sequitur. If you're concerned about cardiovascular fitness and running endurance in LEO then you focus on that not their BMI. Your argument seems to be "See these people that look fat? They can't run because they look fat." My argument is that you can't tell someone's fitness/running endurance based upon how they look or how much body fat they have. That's also the only claim I'm making here. I said nothing about BMI as it relates to other health/risk factors or whether any individual has too much body fat.

 

You also can't predict how an individual LEO will handle a situation based upon their BMI. Are there studies that show that obese officers are less likely to have good communication skills or that they're less adept at diffusing situations or handling non-compliant individuals? And in the case the OP is referring to, are you suggesting he did what he did because he was overweight/obese?

 

As for the actual topic in the thread - we teach our kids to comply. The rest (the legality of the stop, whether or not the ticket should have been written, etc) is something for the courts to decide. We'll fight that out after the fact, not try to litigate that at the time of the stop. And court rulings have a direct impact on an agency's SOPs so it's not like complying at the stop is just giving in. We have the privilege of being able to do that, though and I'm mindful of that.

Edited June 11, 2016 by mamaraby

[Caroline]

Thank you for this post. You do this so much better than I do. I taught for many years in a high poverty and majority minority school. Life is just different when you live where police use PTA meetings as a reason to set up road blocks.

 

 

It saddens me terribly when I read these threads, because there is so much disconnect. There is a serious lack of understanding for contexts other than your own.

 

I lived in a poverty-stricken, high-crime, African-American neighborhood for fourteen years. The next community over was a wealthy white community.

 

It is a fact that those who do not appear to be middle class are targeted and harassed by law enforcement, and it is a fact that people of color are targeted and harassed disproportionately.

 

I realize that the kid in this incident is white.

 

Nevertheless, I just feel sad when people talk about just obeying officers, that there is nothing wrong with a "reasonable request."

 

Actually, there IS something wrong with detaining people without cause. That is why there are laws about doing so. There IS something wrong with making requests to roll down the window or put out the cigarette--these are NOT reasonable requests unless the officer has identified a specific probable cause for detainment.

 

Yes, I teach my kids to treat the officer like a wild animal. He is armed, and unfortunately I have personal friends who have been subjected to police brutality as well as police harassment. MANY TIMES. The fact is that power corrupts. The statistics on this are far, far inadequate, because many do not report. Many fear retaliation, and many are just glad to get away when the ugly interaction ends.

 

I say this even though a dear, dear friend of ours is a police officer. Frankly, my friend is the kind of LEO everyone in this thread wants, the kind we want them all to be. My friend is ethical, moral, kind, physically fit, decisive, slow to anger, and a real hero. When we were in college together, we all knew he would be the most amazing cop ever, and he totally is. He has a son with profound autism, and he is so very, very amazing in his care for him. The fact that officers like my friend exist does not negate the fact that there is a serious problem with police bullying.

 

Don't kid yourself--your status (your appearance) as a middle-class housewife protects you far more than you know.

 

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

[TechWife]

I wouldn't call expired registration, a tail light out or even speeding criminal and I doubt most officers do.

 

I do. Not complying with the law is criminal behavior. If they don't think it's criminal behavior, then why are they stopping people for these crimes? 

[Miss Peregrine]

I do. Not complying with the law is criminal behavior. If they don't think it's criminal behavior, then why are they stopping people for these crimes?

For safety. Of you and those around you. Broken tail lights, tinted windows, and bald tires are safety issues. Not every stop is a fishing expedition. That's why they are fix-it tickets.

[TechWife]

For safety. Of you and those around you. Broken tail lights, tinted windows, and bald tires are safety issues. Not every stop is a fishing expedition. That's why they are fix-it tickets.

 

I've never heard of a fix it ticket. 

[Miss Peregrine]

I've never heard of a fix it ticket.

Regional differences are so funny. Also called a correctable violation. You fix the problem, get it signed off by an officer, and pay a small dismissal fee.

[Joker]

I've never heard of a fix it ticket. 

 

I've been given two tickets that were fix it tickets. As long as I renewed my license and registration within a certain time period, I wasn't required to pay the ticket. I went to the court house with proof that I had updated things and that was it. I've always thought it was pretty common since I've known many others have had the same thing happen.

[TechWife]

Regional differences are so funny. Also called a correctable violation. You fix the problem, get it signed off by an officer, and pay a small dismissal fee.

 

 

I've been given two tickets that were fix it tickets. As long as I renewed my license and registration within a certain time period, I wasn't required to pay the ticket. I went to the court house with proof that I had updated things and that was it. I've always thought it was pretty common since I've known many others have had the same thing happen.

 

 

I was pulled over for a burned out headlight once. They ran my license and tag through their system to make sure I didn't have any warrants out on me and then told me I needed to get it fixed. Nothing was given to me in writing and I didn't have to go to court. I have received one verbal warning for speeding that way as well. 

[Miss Peregrine]

I was pulled over for a burned out headlight once. They ran my license and tag through their system to make sure I didn't have any warrants out on me and then told me I needed to get it fixed. Nothing was given to me in writing and I didn't have to go to court. I have received one verbal warning for speeding that way as well.

Did that make you a criminal? Driving with a broken headlight is illegal.

[TechWife]

Did that make you a criminal? Driving with a broken headlight is illegal.

 

Yep - I was a criminal until I got it fixed. 

[Miss Peregrine]

Yep - I was a criminal until I got it fixed.

Ok, then. :)