Fitness People - Why Can't DD Lose Weight?

[*lifeoftheparty*]

....

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by *lifeoftheparty*

[LucyStoner]

I am taking it personally. I shouldn't, but I am.

 

Because it irritates me at how often people (mostly women) have these issues and are given the same old bad outdated information by medical "professionals". And then they waste years of their life trying to lose weight and feel better by following the calories in vs. calories out formula, and feel like a complete failure because of it- and then are treated like dumb, fat, lazy, slobs because "all you have to do is eat less and exercise more". :-/

 

It just sucks, and at least now the OP knows that there are other explanations and solutions out there.

I've BTDT. Hell, even at times when I have had no weight to lose I've had doctors mindlessly urge me to drop pounds based on the number on the page when, with my stature and build doing so would have required an eating disorder or amputation of limbs.

 

I've wasn't even overweight at 12 but I thought I was because I was heavier than the other girls without realizing that I was also a crap ton taller than most of the other girls. It's such a hard age. I just think caution is super advisable when dealing with children.

Edited June 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Tsuga]

Forgot to add one thing: regardless of how much she eats (e.g. "on a diet" or eating whatever she wants) she told me she feels hungry all.the.time.

That is a common side effect of dieting. Hunger all the time.

 

A doctor who does not believe you needs to be ditched. Your daughter has a health issue and deserves a compassionate ally. I say that to encourage you, not as a judgment.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Tsuga

[Tsuga]

I agree about a full endocrinology workup. She has an array of endocrine symptoms. You cannot know the approach that's going to be the best option for promoting long-term health (and that's presumably the goal) without knowing what is going on.

 

At the very least, I think a bone scan to check her growth plates would be appropriate. Reaching full adult height by age 12 is not normal (though not inconsistent with precocious puberty, either), and that's what it sounds like you're think is going on. It wouldn't take much of a height gain for 160 to drop out of the obese range, so knowing for a fact what you're dealing with as far as future growth would be helpful for determining what path to take.

I reached my full adult height at 13. No precocious puberty. Slim whole life. That is actually common.

[gingersmom]

I reached my full adult height at 13. No precocious puberty. Slim whole life. That is actually common.

I have been the same height since age 12.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This is the guy I would really recommend :

http://profiles.ucsf.edu/robert.lustig

 

He specializes in pediatric endocrinology and obesity. I have seen his talks on youtube and he seems great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

 

Maybe I am wrong but he seems great. I am sure Stanford probably has some great docs too.

[freesia]

I have been the same height since age 12.

Me, too, and I think dd has at 13 (1/4 inch taller than I). We are early growers. Menses for both of us at 11.

[LucyStoner]

I reached my full adult height at 13. No precocious puberty. Slim whole life. That is actually common.

Same for height. I'm not sure why anyone thinks it's odd for girls to stop growing fairly young.

 

Most girls come within 1-2 inches of their adult height around the time they have started their period. Girls have their peak height gains about 1 year after starting puberty and then it slows or even stops after they get their periods.

 

I didn't have precocious puberty and was just a bit over 5'7 when my period started. I added about 2 more inches sometime between 12 and 18.

 

Boys start puberty later but tend to have a longer period of rapid growth for a longer time during puberty. It's also way more variable than it is for most girls. Many males will grow a little more between ages 18 and 21.

 

Precocious puberty for girls is defined as starting puberty before age 8. First menses at 11-13 is the norm for girls with some a little earlier and some a little later. If a girl hasn't started puberty by 13, it's advised she see a doctor.

Edited June 2, 2016 by LucyStoner

[gardenmom5]

I agree with most of your post but to your last point- a 12 year old girl who has her period is likely fairly close to her adult height. She'd need to grow 9-11 inches to make her weight even put and most women who are going to be 5'9+ are considerably taller than 5 feet at at 12. I was 5'7. My mom was 5'10 at 12. So I can see why the OP would be frustrated with "grow into it" advice.

 

I think when their cycle starts is more important than age.  dd was probably 5'3" or 5'4" at 12.  her period didn't start until she was nearly 14, and she was 5'9" in 8th grade.  she's 5'11". 

 

 

Yes, this. I would honestly be quite reluctant to try any kind of diet which cut entire categories of foods out without an actual diagnosis in a child of this age.

 

the two catagories I would be fine cutting are added sugar - of any kind.  (table sugar, honey, agave, stevia, etc. - they're all sugar and empty calories.  among other things, they suppress the brain's ability to detect satiation.  they just mess with your chemistry period. when I cut them - I automatically eat less.  and processed foods - because they tend to contain a lot of sugars.)

 

Since you are planning to go to Stanford, I would be hesitant to change her over to a low carb diet before you begin working with them. Part of the diagnostic process will be taking an A1C, which is a measure of her average blood glucose level over the last 3 months. If you change her diet to low carb (which sounds like it would help her greatly after reading your descriptions of symptoms), her A1C will drop, possibly a lot, in the months it takes to get in to see a Stanford specialist.

 

 

this.  you want them to see what she's like so they can get a 'real' picture.  if you are doing diet things - it may or may not help, but it *will* change her numbers and her test results can be masked as for what is really happening.  they need to see the real picture.

 

Just because it was an endo does not mean that (1) she ordered the labs that really meant anything, and (2) that she actually understands lab results. The only lab tests that mean anything are Free T3, Free T4, and Reverse T3. (Testing for antibodies is important, but it doesn't negate the need for FT3, FT4, and RT3). Free T3 levels should be in the upper fourth of the lab's ranges, FT4 in the upper half, and RT3 above 20. "Normal" means "most people's levels are between *here* and *here*; it does NOT mean "all people whose levels fall anywhere on the scale between *here* and *here* have great thyroid function."

 

Among thyroid sufferers, endos have a terrible rep, because they generally do a really bad job of diagnosing and treating thyroid disease. Sad but true.

 

Ask for those labs: Free T3, Free T4, and Reverse T3. Throw in TSH if you must. If she will not order those, find a doctor who will. Or see about ordering them yourself. Check out this page on the Stop the Thyroid Madness site.

 

almost every single allopath of any sort has a deservedly terrible rep.  I've come to love naturopaths . . . .

I repeatedly asked my dr to order the ft3/ft4/etc. . . . I *finally* got her to agree. actually she lied.  she told me she'd order them, but all she did was orderTOTAL t3 & t4. - which are worthless numbers!  she also wouldn't increase my levo (t4) despite still being symptomatic of hypothyroid.

I started supplementing with a bovine desiccated thyroid (available OTC) and I felt so. much. better.  my numbers were closer to optimal (she *still* wouldn't order NDT or anything else).  I now see a naturopath, and we've started me on porcine desiccated  thyroid (more like human - not available otc - but it's cheaper with insurance.).  so, we're playing with that . . . .

Edited June 2, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Ellie]

 

almost every single allopath of any sort has a deservedly terrible rep.  I've come to love naturopaths . . . .

 

I repeatedly asked my dr to order the ft3/ft4/etc. . . . I *finally* got her to agree. actually she lied.  she told me she'd order them, but all she did was orderTOTAL t3 & t4. - which are worthless numbers!  she also wouldn't increase my levo (t4) despite still being symptomatic of hypothyroid.

 

I started supplementing with a bovine desiccated thyroid (available OTC) and I felt so. much. better.  my numbers were closer to optimal (she *still* wouldn't order NDT or anything else).  I now see a naturopath, and we've started me on porcine desiccated  thyroid (more like human - not available otc - but it's cheaper with insurance.).  so, we're playing with that . . . .

 

You're singing the song of our people. :cursing:

Edited June 3, 2016 by Ellie

[abcmommy]

At her age she could sign up for weight watchers and probably find it very helpful.  I failed radically at Calories in/ calores out with My fitness pal but have lost almost 20 lbs with WW.

 

I hate to mention this, but do you think she is drinking?

[dollhouse]

To the OP--it might be worth asking for a sleep study since you said she has fatigue. Sleep apnea can interfere with weight loss and cause excessive fatigue, and it's more common in those who are overweight.

[purplejackmama]

I agree. I would be really worried about setting her up for a lifetime of difficulties.

 

My best friend in high school was constantly on a diet. It never worked and she felt bad about herself all the time. It was awful.

 

I would push to find out if something more is going on, but I'd be cautious about becoming too obsessive with dieting.

I spent my entire childhood on a diet. Now I'm a screwed up fat adult.

[LucyStoner]

I think when their cycle starts is more important than age. dd was probably 5'3" or 5'4" at 12. her period didn't start until she was nearly 14, and she was 5'9" in 8th grade. she's 5'11".

 

 

Yes, it's definitely about when the period starts and not the age. I got my period when I was 11, pushing 12. My mom got hers when she was 12. We each grew about 2 inches after that. I didnt even realize I had cracked 5'9 until I was measured at the doctor when I was about 18. I'm still a little bummed about being "short" compared to the other women on my mom's side who are all 5'11-6'1.

[kiana]

Yes, it's definitely about when the period starts and not the age. I got my period when I was 11, pushing 12. My mom got hers when she was 12. We each grew about 2 inches after that. I didnt even realize I had cracked 5'9 until I was measured at the doctor when I was about 18. I'm still a little bummed about being "short" compared to the other women on my mom's side who are all 5'11-6'1.

 

Ha, yeah. I always wanted to hit six feet, never made it, but almost.

 

I've been the same height since I was 12, got my period right about then. It really stank being a very tall overdeveloped chubby preteen. But I grew maybe one inch since I started.

[Laurie4b]

I spent my entire childhood on a diet. Now I'm a screwed up fat adult.

 

There were multiple people who expressed the same pain  a fairly recent thread  for those who were once obese and have lost some weight permanently. 

 

As for other issues on this thread: 

 

I think that posters, including myself, who recommended waiting until there is a diagnosis are doing so not because we have had awesome experience with nutritionists nor with doctors understanding weight loss "in and of itself" but because it seems like there is a medical issue in play--the kind of medical issue that there *is* medical data and treatment for if it's PCOS, etc..  There are some medical issues that can be worsened with particular kinds of diets. 

 

The tone of some of the posts has been incredibly snarky and disrespectful especially given that nearly all the people in this thread have been obese at least at some point in their lives. I recognize the names from other threads on obesity, weight loss, etc.  People aren't talking out of their hats, but out of their experience. 

[Bluegoat]

There were multiple people who expressed the same pain  a fairly recent thread  for those who were once obese and have lost some weight permanently. 

 

As for other issues on this thread: 

 

I think that posters, including myself, who recommended waiting until there is a diagnosis are doing so not because we have had awesome experience with nutritionists nor with doctors understanding weight loss "in and of itself" but because it seems like there is a medical issue in play--the kind of medical issue that there *is* medical data and treatment for if it's PCOS, etc..  There are some medical issues that can be worsened with particular kinds of diets. 

 

The tone of some of the posts has been incredibly snarky and disrespectful especially given that nearly all the people in this thread have been obese at least at some point in their lives. I recognize the names from other threads on obesity, weight loss, etc.  People aren't talking out of their hats, but out of their experience. 

 

Yes - this.  Really - unless anyone has some idea what the underlying cause is, they simply won't be able to offer even a direction to go in, all they can give is very generalized advice.  Why would a nutreitionsit give condition specific advice to someone who hasn't been shown to have a condition - it might be bad for them!

 

Sometimes I think people forget that general doctors do not have specific training about everything - they aren't necessarily supposed to, it isn't their role.  Often their development of expertise depends on the patients they have, which is in itself a benefit - GPs and such can be less likely to make inappropriate invasive treatments, for example, because they see a wide spectrum of people and don't tend to leap to conclusions based on self-selected groups that specialists see.  But it does mean that sometimes you need more specific advice.  (And some doctors forget this.)

[shinyhappypeople]

That is a common side effect of dieting. Hunger all the time.

 

A doctor who does not believe you needs to be ditched. Your daughter has a health issue and deserves a compassionate ally. I say that to encourage you, not as a judgment.

 

She's hungry all the time even when she's not dieting.

[shinyhappypeople]

At her age she could sign up for weight watchers and probably find it very helpful.  I failed radically at Calories in/ calores out with My fitness pal but have lost almost 20 lbs with WW.

 

I hate to mention this, but do you think she is drinking?

 It's okay to ask.  No, there's absolutely no chance she's drinking. 

 

I love WW's approach for her, even though her overall weight loss is slow.  She can eat a wide variety of very healthy foods: all the vegetables and fruits she wants (within reason), lean protein like shrimp (not breaded, obviously), and there's room for carbs/starches, and treats in moderation.  It's a way of eating that allows her to participate in life with her friends (yes, you can have a slice of birthday cake at your friends party, but it's 10 points and that's a lot, so plan accordingly.)  It gives her choice and power in her relationship with food.  

[Katy]

She's hungry all the time even when she's not dieting.

 

This is because her insulin levels are high.  When your insulin levels are that high, most of your cells develop insulin resistance.  Your fat cells don't.  So her cells cannot get the energy in her blood into the cells.  The insulin key that usually delivers the energy won't work.  Her cells are screaming for energy, sending lots of signals that they need more food, even though there is plenty of glucose to feed them, it just can't get past the cell wall.  So she IS hungry.  She's hungry all the time.  Her cells need more food.  Her blood has plenty of food, but it can't get to the cells because of insulin resistance.  So all the food in her blood is getting shifted into her fat cells. And she's still hungry, no matter how much she eats.

 

The ONLY thing that will make the hunger go away is lowering her insulin level.  Every time she eats ANYTHING, her insulin level rises.  This is why I said absolutely no snacking.  This is why I said intermittent fasting helps.  Not the adult version of eating every other day, but the version of eating one big meal per day.

 

Since the goal is to get the insulin level down, having her skip breakfast, have something small for lunch or skipping that too, and then letting her have anything she wants for dinner would work. I would make sure she has at least 4 ounces of protein and at least 1 cup of cooked vegetables or 3 cups of raw vegetables, and then let her have anything she wanted afterwards.  Anything.  A blizzard from Dairy Queen or three slices of key lime pie or anything she wanted at all.

 

Personally I'm Christian, but Ramadan is about to start in a few days. 1.6 billion people around the world are about to start intermittent fasting from June 5th to July 5th.  Many medical studies have been done showing eating one meal a day is healthier than 3 or 6 meals a day because it restores insulin sensitivity.  You don't have to believe me.  Just look into it.   Ask her to consider trying it. Try it with her for one month.  Drink water or iced tea or anything without calories during the day and eat whatever you want for dinner, as long as you make an effort to get in some protein and veggies before eating junk.  As much and whatever junk she wants, just limit the meals to an hour or too, and then nothing else except water until dinner the next day.

 

She'll feel hangry, shaky, weak.  She'll ignore it and in less than 20 minutes, the feeling will pass.  Her liver will pump out stored sugar and she'll be fine.  In less than a weak, hunger will be vaguely pleasant rather than OMG I MUST EAT RIGHT NOW.  Then you'll start finding she's not hungry. She'll have more energy, and the weight will fall off easily once she makes it through the transition. 

[ktgrok]

Yeah, once a day eating might work. Or, it might send a 12 year old CHILD into a lifetime of eating disorders, because if once a day works, maybe once a week would work better! Or, oops, I ate during the day, better puke to get rid of it!  

 

She's a child. She doesn't have the adult ability to think this through the way an adult would. 

 

Do nothing until you get into the pediatric obesity clinic, please. 

[Supertechmom]

I would recommend a glucose meter and start recording her blood sugar levels.  Especially the morning level.  Insulin resistance can start at any age especially if the child has had the typical American diet her whole life.     If you get the chance, read this book, The Obesity Code .  He does a great job explaining insulin resistance and how to fix it.  Intermittent fasting, basically not eating from dinner until lunch the next day (16 hours) and then eating a LCHF diet heavy on veggies and low on fruit those other hours will break the insulin pattern as well as control hunger pains.  But i would start checking sugar levels to at least have a record of that for the specialist.   Especially a morning level which should be 8-12 hours after her last food intake. High levels every morning is indicates a hormonal issue.  I realized after reading it that myself and my four kids eat this way naturally if we just listen to our stomachs.  No one around eats breakfast ever unless I make them or there is a growth spurt happening.  Now I don't bother as they start eating around lunch and eat until dinner/bedtime.   Apparently a healthy way of eating according to the Obesity Code.

 

Ps.....   Diet soda is the worst for some people.  It spikes my blood sugars nearly 40 points every time I drink one contributing to my insulin resistance.  I have simply had to swear off of sodas.  Which sucks as I have a really bad soda habit.  I would have never known had I not been checking sugar levels.  My morning levels have dropped nearly 30 points in a week of following the LCHF and intermittent fasting plan. So I am encouraged that I am on the right path finally.   I had a 60 pound weight gain one year and have never been able to drop those pounds.  I am hoping this method will pay off.

 

PSS...  Two of my kids are Celiac. That diet for us tends to be low carb and high fat.  One has been eating like this since about 18 months of age.  Limited grains (pizza and hamburger buns and occasional sandwich),little processed food beyond those items and candy, and lots of veggies and protein.   Her development and growth has been great.   I wish I had known to be on that diet years ago.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah, once a day eating might work. Or, it might send a 12 year old CHILD into a lifetime of eating disorders, because if once a day works, maybe once a week would work better! Or, oops, I ate during the day, better puke to get rid of it!  

 

She's a child. She doesn't have the adult ability to think this through the way an adult would. 

 

Do nothing until you get into the pediatric obesity clinic, please. 

 

Yes.

 

Or it could send her into diabetic hypoglycemia, which is not something you just wait out 

[ktgrok]

And to be clear, I'm NOT against intermittent fasting at all. Heck,I started a thread on it here. I just think that sometimes the risk of an eating disorder at that particular age needs to be weighed against other things. And a 12 year old shouldn't NEED intermittent fasting, honestly. Other issues need to be addressed first, or at least identified. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

I haven't read the replies but my dd has had the same struggles.   When we investigated more with a pediatric endocrinologist, she has hashimotos.  While an elevated TSH is probably not a big deal for normal people, some patients with high antibodies do not function well until their TSH is much lower.  DD was slightly out of the normal limits at the time and she felt awful.  Her specialist said it was because her anti-thyroid antibodies were so high.  If you take meds and reduce the activity of the thyroid (it is over working) then the autoimmune attack slows down.  Meds and gluten free have been a huge help for her.

 

Hope this helps

[Callie]

Yeah, once a day eating might work. Or, it might send a 12 year old CHILD into a lifetime of eating disorders, because if once a day works, maybe once a week would work better! Or, oops, I ate during the day, better puke to get rid of it!  

 

She's a child. She doesn't have the adult ability to think this through the way an adult would. 

 

Do nothing until you get into the pediatric obesity clinic, please. 

Or how horrible to watch your family all eat 3 or 4 times a day.  And you do what (?) while they all enjoy a meal together.  They talk and interact and you just sit and watch and the message is loud and clear that you can't eat because your fat.

 

I was in my 40's and had never had a weight issue before when I had to change the way I ate.  It was (and sometimes still is) hard.  I can't imagine doing it at 12 yo because I look different from everyone else in the family.

[kiana]

Since you keep harping on the eat-one-meal-a-day thing ...

 

Ya, I am not at all intrinsically opposed to it. But she is only 12.

 

12 year olds are not at all mature and it is very common that they decide that if a little of something is good, a lot must be better. Heck, even adults do this sometimes. So they cut calories a bit and see results. But they want more results so they cut calories some more. And some more. And then some more. Or they cut meals a bit (like, cut out one) and see results. So they cut out a second. And then they do their best to cut out or minimize intake at a third. Or they start puking up the third. Or they start genuinely binge eating at the third, to where they'll eat far beyond the point of hunger and then try fasting the next day to make it up and then binge eat again.

 

And all the while they're seeing positive feedback from everyone. Yay! I'm not fat anymore! I'm the second fattest! No! I'm actually average! And the positive feedback continues and they keep cutting out more and more, and frequently when a child has a history of obesity nobody worries until they are at the low end of healthy or even lower, instead of getting worried when they've dropped 20 lbs in a month. There are so many eating disorders that have begun this way and a 12 year old with a history of obesity is already at a high risk of developing them. This is not something she should do without very close medical supervision and quite possibly counseling as well. Her weight is not skyrocketing right now. There is time to wait.

[gardenmom5]

She's hungry all the time even when she's not dieting.

 

she should be getting good protein at each meal.  avoid sugar (in all forms. read labels) - it messes with the brain's ability to recognize satiation.

 

 

 

Ps.....   Diet soda is the worst for some people.  

 

  soda contains high fructose corn syrup - despite the corn industry doing an ad blitz to say it's okay - it isn't.  your brain doesn't know how to deal with it.   and . . it contains mercury.   caustic soda is used to extract the sugar from the corn - it contains mercury.  I was skeptical the first time I heard it - but dudeling was drinking soda while having a blood draw - to measure his heavy metal levels.  his mercury level was the same as if he'd swallowed the mercury from an old-fashioned thermometer.

even artificial sweeteners  mess up the brain.

[eternalsummer]

I think what some posters are saying is that right now she is eating a certain diet (WW, more or less - just less of what she's naturally inclined to eat? with some protein, some sugary snacks, some bread, some veggies, etc.) that is pretty normal in some parts of the world - and that it might be beneficial to switch to another diet (fasting, or low carb, or something else) that is pretty normal for other parts of the world.

 

So none of these ways of eating (WW or fasting or low carb) are drastic or exceptional - they're the norm for millions (billions) of people.  Doing one or the other of them is not a drastic measure, and the OP's daughter is already dieting (doing WW) so it's not like she's switching from not watching what she eats to watching what she eats; she's already on a diet.

 

All of that said, I don't see the point in pre-emptively treating for insulin resistance without testing, and it is pretty easy to test for (at least as a baseline), right?  Just get a monitor and see what is going on for a while.  If she has insulin resistance, coconut milk ice cream and birthday cake are not working for her; if she doesn't have it, there's no point giving those things up until you figure out what she does have.