Information pro and con for vaccines for Meningitis.

[Pen]

Maybe it is impossible to stop opinions--and that is okay too-- but I am really looking for information.  

 

My ds will be studying this as the final part of science studies for this year.  This is for young people in USA, not for older people, or people traveling to places with high incidence of meningitis.

 

Some issues for which more information is desired:

 

- potential deadliness (or severe long term effects even in case of recovery) of meningitis vs. relative at least short term safety of the vaccine(s)

 

- rarity of outbreaks of meningitis and possibility that it is always with us, but just has outbreaks during overcrowding and lack of healthful circumstances  for other reasons

 

- do people often get very mild cases? Or is there really a 60% fatality rate as we were told?

 

- efficacy of vaccines in vivo? How do we know?

 

-contamination of vaccines  ( http://salem-news.com/articles/november292011/vaccines-contaminated-se.php )

 

- possibility that short term acute illness is being lessened, but long term chronic illness, cancer etc. increased (either accidentally or deliberately)

 

- other issues?

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

[TammyS]

:lurk5:

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

 

The linked site is not a reliable source of scientific information.

 

 

She can find the actual peer reviewed scientific studies for the specific vaccines online.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Really I don't know.  They are now requiring this here for high school students.  My 14 year old already got it.  He didn't have any issues at all. 

[TechWife]

Sources I recommend: 

 

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) - they have information from around the world; check out their education section as well

 

State Department of Health and Human Services - they receive reports on contagious diseases; check with various states to see what statistics they gather

 

National Institutes of Health   - conducts biomedical research 

 

World Health Organization - public health arm of the United Nations; worldwide information

 

Introduce her to Google Scholar for academic research reports and journal articles 

 

I recommend that she actually call your state health department and/or the CDC and interview someone. She can pick a person off of their website or call the switchboard, explain she is working on a school project and ask who she can talk to about bacterial meningitis. Most organizations love to share their knowledge. It is best she have five or six questions ready to ask when she makes the call. This is where she can not only ask about statistics, but also about the methodology used to collect the statistics. 

 

Remind her that methodology is important in scientific research. She needs to be sure the sources she references are following sound research methodology and not just reporting based upon anecdotes. 

 

Also, be sure she defines what she means by "young people" and that she understands the basics of what meningitis is, how it is spread and the short and long term effects of it before she delves into the research on it. Otherwise, she won't understand the research. 

 

She also needs a very basic understanding of statistics so that she can have a rudimentary ability to interpret research results. Along with that - can she accurately read and interpret tables, charts and graphs? They are a big part of research findings. She should be able to literally read them and draw conclusions based upon the information presented. Ideally, she would be able to draw conclusions by puling together information from several different explanatory tools. She should be able to do this for the main body of her research as well. Otherwise, she would simply be regurgitating facts. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by TechWife

[TechWife]

The linked site is not a reliable source of scientific information.

 

 

Just in that page alone I see inaccuracies.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Just in that page alone I see inaccuracies.

Inaccuracies is being kind.

[BlsdMama]

I will tell you that we very much selectively vaccinate and the meningitis vaccines are among the few we do actually do.  

 

I found a good resource was Aviva Jill Romm's book.  I haven't read it in several years but I felt the information on the actual disease and how effective treatment was in case your child GOT the disease was very pertinent information.  Hib is the *only* vaccine we give before 24 months.  

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/hib.html

And then there are additional meningitis vaccines after infancy - ETA I assume  you are actually talking about meningococcal, but I think that this info is still relevant to you?  If not then please disregard.  But you will find a lot of statistical data and resources in Romm's book.  While the stats are out of date, your DS might find what information she chose to put in the book and her resources valuable in order to find more up to date resources and think of what should be included in his paper.

 

 I honestly wish she'd come up with an updated version.

http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinations-Thoughtful-Sensible-Decisions-Alternatives/dp/0892819316/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1464460553&sr=8-3&keywords=aviva+jill+romm

 

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by BlsdMama

[justasque]

We learn about medical issues by doing studies.   The best way to understand our collective knowledge on a particular medical issue is to read the relevant studies.  Each study has limitations, of course, but over time trends can be observed and at least tentative conclusions drawn.  The more an issue is studied, and the more the studies include large, diverse populations and long-term follow-up, the more we can glean from them.  A good librarian can give your ds some guidance on how to search the medical literature to find relevant studies.

However, your ds will need some basics before undertaking his research.  A basic understanding of the scientific method, as well as a good grounding in statistics, are foundational.  In addition, a skeptical eye that can discern problematic study methodology and unsupported claims/conclusions will be of immeasurable help.    

With vaccines in particular, it is very important to understand the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), especially the limitations of this kind of data.  As an example, the data might show that 100 people developed complication X shortly after getting vaccine Y.  That does NOT mean that vaccine Y causes complication X.  We need to know much, much more before information we can determine that, including the number of people who got the vaccine, and the number of people who could be expected to get complication X if no vaccine was given.  Any site that says "X number of people died after getting this vaccine!!!" with the implication that the vaccine caused their deaths, needs to be read with a VERY critical eye, because unless the data is carefully analyzed, you can't conclude that the vaccine and the deaths have anything to do with each other.  

 If you have friends who are medical professionals, they may be able to help your ds to understand how medical information is researched.  There's a lot to learn, but it can be incredibly valuable to any young adult, as this kind of awareness can be very helpful when making medical decisions for oneself and one's loved ones.

[HSmomof2]

I don't have statistics, but we definitely do meningitis vaccines. IMO, the benefits of this vaccine far outweigh the risks. I went to school with a boy who got meningitis.....he thought he just had the flu. He was unconscious by the time his mom got home from work. Taken to the hospital, where he had to have his arms and legs amputated within 48 hrs. Never regained consciousness and passed away the next day. Heartbreaking for his family and friends.

[1GirlTwinBoys]

I did delayed vaccination with my children.  This is a vaccine I would definitely not skip either.  A woman I know had a grown son (late 20's) that didn't get the vaccine because it was before they were doing this one and he contracted it.  Very serious and scary!  Not something I'm willing to risk after knowing someone personally that had this.

[Mergath]

So... you think the pharmaceutical companies are intentionally giving people cancer via meningitis vaccines? Can I ask why?

[hornblower]

Well one thing you need to start with is an understanding that meningitis is a disease that can be caused by several different viral, fungal and bacterial strains. It's not ONE disease.

Without this understanding people get confused about 'oh someone had the meningitis vaccine and still got sick'. Well, it could be that he got a completely different version of the disease. 

There are also different vaccines that aim to protect from the different bacterial strains that can cause it so you have to be sure you're comparing research & analysis about the same strains. 

[abcmommy]

I can only assume you have never seen what bacterial meningitis does to a person.  How fortunate.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tsuga]

Maybe it is impossible to stop opinions--and that is okay too-- but I am really looking for information.  

 

My ds will be studying this as the final part of science studies for this year.  This is for young people in USA, not for older people, or people traveling to places with high incidence of meningitis.

 

Some issues for which more information is desired:

 

- potential deadliness (or severe long term effects even in case of recovery) of meningitis vs. relative at least short term safety of the vaccine(s)

 

- rarity of outbreaks of meningitis and possibility that it is always with us, but just has outbreaks during overcrowding and lack of healthful circumstances  for other reasons

 

- do people often get very mild cases? Or is there really a 60% fatality rate as we were told?

 

- efficacy of vaccines in vivo? How do we know?

 

-contamination of vaccines  ( http://salem-news.com/articles/november292011/vaccines-contaminated-se.php )

 

- possibility that short term acute illness is being lessened, but long term chronic illness, cancer etc. increased (either accidentally or deliberately)

 

- other issues?

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

Well, my nanny just got meningitis--viral meningitis but horrible nonetheless. She was in the hospital for a week shortly following her arrival. She was fully vaccinated but that was against bacterial meningitis, which is more severe. More severe than a week in the hospital! Ack! Kid is 19, looks healthy, but had had strep less than 8 weeks ago.

 

This isn't scientific information, but her sudden illness and hospital stay just reinforced my belief that the less meningitis you can get, the better.

[abcmommy]

https://www.meningitisnow.org/support-us/news-centre/meningitis-stories/

[abcmommy]

http://www.nmaus.org/stories/stories-visitors/

 

Please read this.  The young man did end up not having to have any of his limbs amputated.

 

http://www.nmaus.org/story/blake/

Edited May 30, 2016 by abcmommy

[creekland]

Inaccuracies is being kind.

 

I can see that being a very good article for me to use at school if I get the chance - either in science or English classes.  It's a very good example of not believing everything you read plus there are several different parts of it that fit that definition allowing students to break up into groups with different sections instead of all doing the same thing.

 

I think my favorite was polio being very rare prior to the vaccine...

 

To the OP - glad your guy is doing actual research.  Obviously, teach him to beware of his sources and to look at actual stats and research rather than "I saw it on the internet" hype.  Letting him interview some who have had meningitis would probably be beneficial too - just to understand the ugliness of the disease.  

[Joules]

Well one thing you need to start with is an understanding that meningitis is a disease that can be caused by several different viral, fungal and bacterial strains. It's not ONE disease.

 

Without this understanding people get confused about 'oh someone had the meningitis vaccine and still got sick'. Well, it could be that he got a completely different version of the disease. 

 

There are also different vaccines that aim to protect from the different bacterial strains that can cause it so you have to be sure you're comparing research & analysis about the same strains. 

 

Right, the vaccine doesn't protect against all forms of meningitis.   I do think it is very important, IN ADDITION to getting the vaccine, to educate your kids on the symptoms of meningitis.  If treated right away, the outcomes can be better.  So many of the tragedies come from kids assuming it's just a "flu" and trying to sleep it off.  Knowing what to look for could help your child save themselves or a friend.

 

Again, I think the vaccine is VERY important, because in some cases even early treatment fails to save a life.

[FaithManor]

Polio was rare prior to the vaccine???? OH.GOOD.GRIEF! Says the woman with two great aunts, and three second cousins however many times removed it is when you are 48 and they would be about 100 if they were still alive.

 

My boy heading to the dorms this fall is getting it again this summer

There isn't much of a schedule for boosters outside of tetanus for adults but I believe there should be due to waning immunity.which reminds me, youngest may need a tetanus, I need to look up his record but we must be very close to booset time.

[Pen]

Quote feature not working today. Thank you all for your replies thus far. I'll let my ds read the thread.

 

ABCMommy, thanks for the links to the stories. I have especially linked those for my ds to read. As they also do some of what Joules points out is important which is to give a sense of symptoms to look for--and maybe in a more useful way than a list that gives "flu-like symptoms, headache, nausea, ..." in list form

 

TechWife, BlsdMama, justasque, thank you particularly for the bunch of good places to start gathering more research and thoughts and ideas.

 

Creekland: How would you suggest finding people who have had the illness to interview them? Even knowing that 4 people at our state university in a city not so far away got it a few years ago, I would not know how to find the 3 survivors to interview them. Otherwise the incidence is around 2 per million in the USA, and our community has only around 1-2000 people in the nearest 50 square miles or so, with none who have had the relevant types of meningitis so far as I know.

 

 

 

 

Hornblower: The problem of multiple different things causing meningitis is important. It seems to cut in multiple directions.

 

Not only may it be that someone who got meningitis despite being vaccinated was not vaccinated for the type of meningitis the person got, but as well, some of the stories about the horrors of a particular case of meningitis may have been from a form of meningitis different than what is being contemplated (or even possible currently) for a vaccination. We had an outbreak of a meningitis in an area not far from where we live, with one death, for example, but it was a different serotype than covered by the vaccine that is generally given to children/teens. And the death that occurred seemed to be due to failure of the hospital that the sick person went to, after a known outbreak was already underway, to start antibiotics or to consider meningitis despite, apparently, typical rash symptom along with flu-like symptoms.

 

 

 

So what exact serotype did Blake in the NMA story have? What serotype did the schoolmate of Bethany Grace who had to have all limbs amputated and died anyway have? What about people exposed to these people--did they get sick also? Were they all vaccinated? Did they receive prophylactic antibiotics? And such a lot of stories of twins seemingly where one contracts the illness and dies, and the other is, apparently, not sick at all. Almost every story seems to raise more questions for me than it answers.

 

 

Mergath: As to the question of could there be cancer causing substances in the vaccines, I don't know the answer. But I have no reason to believe there could not be.

 

I am old enough to have experienced a time when cigarette smoking was allowed in my schools, as well as many other public places, and was considered hip and cool by students and teachers alike, and saying anything against it was to be seen as a crazy odd-ball.

 

It was not, tmk, the big peer reviewed scientific journals that started to show that there were problems with cigarettes. Eventually, yes, they may have gotten on board. But at the start?

 

It took a long time--decades-- even after people started to recognize issues with it, before the general public started to understand that there was a problem, and even longer before it became understood that the companies that made cigarettes knew and had hidden the info. Could something similar be going on with regard to things done by the pharmaceutical industry? Or is it an industry of saints? Even if it is an industry dominated by saints, can they behave in a saintly fashion if the main job of a corporation is to maximize profit?

 

 

[TravelingChris]

I had viral meningitis in high school,  I was not hospitalized but took about six months to fully recover.  I had to have a homebound teacher come to teach me as I couldn't go to school.  

 

You don't have to be in a dirty place to get bacterial meningitis.  It often occurs in group settings like college campuses, military barracks and summer camps but those places aren't slovenly, just places where groups of people live.  You don't have to be in such a setting to get it, it's just more likely to spread in those settings.

[abcmommy]

My 7 week old had viral meningitis in 2000.  It was shocking.

 

My mother's brother died of bacterial meningitis in 1950.  He seemed ill in the afternoon,  got worse overnight, was taken to hospital.  In those days you handed your child to a nurse and were not allowed to be by their bedside.  My grandmother never saw him alive again. He died that day.

Edited May 30, 2016 by abcmommy

[Pam in CT]

My husband's young cousin would be be dead, were it not for his roommate.  He went to bed feeling a bit off, without saying anything to anyone.  By morning he was too sick to open his eyes, let alone ask for help, forget about getting help on his own steam.

 

All his roommate saw was a soundly sleeping 19 year old.  He could very well have chalked it up to a late night studying, or too much partying.  He could very well have not noticed at all.  Instead he attempted to wake our cousin up and convince him to go to class.  When he was unable to rouse D, he got concerned and tried harder.  When he still couldn't rouse any kind of response, and he kinda-sorta in his 19-yo way suspected fever, he did not call the RA or security (as per college protocol) but rather 911.  D was in advanced stages of viral meningitis, with a fever over 105, unconscious for two days.

 

Imagine if D hadn't had a roommate, or the roommate happened not to be in the room at that moment, or happened just to rush out to class without interacting with him as he lay silently sleeping.

 

 

I literally can't imagine sending a kid off to college without vaccination.

[creekland]

Creekland: How would you suggest finding people who have had the illness to interview them? Even knowing that 4 people at our state university in a city not so far away got it a few years ago, I would not know how to find the 3 survivors to interview them. Otherwise the incidence is around 2 per million in the USA, and our community has only around 1-2000 people in the nearest 50 square miles or so, with none who have had the relevant types of meningitis so far as I know. 

 

In your situation, I'd probably look online to see if I could find someone who had posted about it.  Is there a survivor's club or something like that?

 

In my situation, I'd have my guys talk with my cousin... who got it as a college student and wouldn't have survived if he hadn't sought help.  That was quite a number of years back and we're not super close or I'd see if your guy could interview him.

 

There are always risks when one tries to treat or prevent things.  The big question is whether the risks are worth it.  Knowing how bad something is helps balance out our thoughts.

 

In general, seat belts are worth wearing, but they don't always work better.  I seem to recall the odds being 90% or so (more helpful).

 

My grandparent's generation is the one that told me about oodles of these diseases using real folks they knew as examples. My polio  knowledge came from an IRL (older) friend who was wheelchair bound because of it.  That generation was super thankful to have vaccines.  Current generations don't have nearly as much IRL experience with the disease, so spend more time worrying about the treatment.  If enough don't get vaccinations in the future, that experience might end up swinging back.

 

I don't know anyone IRL who has been harmed from a vaccine.  I read stories and threads, but of all the kids I know who have had vaccines (this includes the vast majority at school), not one has been harmed.  

[FaithManor]

 

 

I don't know anyone IRL who has been harmed from a vaccine.  I read stories and threads, but of all the kids I know who have had vaccines (this includes the vast majority at school), not one has been harmed.  

I do not know anyone outside our family which has an inheritable gene that makes some react insanely to vaccines. Very, very rare. My brother his youngest son (but not the other three children) and my daughter have it but none of the rest of it, and so far, dd did not pass it on to her little man so YAY for that.

 

While dd and nephew came darn tootin' close to losing their lives over vaccine reactions at 18 months of age, they were not permanently harmed, PHEW! My brother however, thinking he had outgrown his childhood extremist reactions to vaccines, decided one year to get the flu vaccine and had the rare side effect of Gianne Barre. He has some residual effects that are technically permanent damage, but not so severe that it is noticeable to anyone but him or significantly impacts his life. No more vaccines of any kind except the not exactly a vaccine  tetanus anti-toxin if he cuts himself or something.

 

There are definitely people out there that have been harmed and sometimes irreparably, but it is not common by any stretch ever. The hardest thing for us when seeing a new doctor is going through the whole thing all over again, and ordering the reports, and making them actually read the darn things because most doctors can practice their entire lifetimes and not have a patient that cannot be vaccinated unless there is an already known immune suppression problem/disease. The random kid who ends up in the hospital with a sustained fever of 106.9 (my dd and my nephew) with an entire pediatric staff fighting to save their lives is just not something most physicians will ever see. So they think I'm paranoid before they read the reports, that I'm one of those hovering mothers that can't stand for her child to run a mild fever, and then finally when you point out the verbiage on the record that they should read, the jaw drops, the eyes get huge, and suddenly I am respected.

 

It shouldn't be that hard for us to be taken seriously. However, I blame that on the fringe extremists who blame vaccines for everything that has ever befallen their family medically speaking. Doctors hear so many baseless claims that it makes it very difficult for those of us with a child who has a life threatening immune reaction.

 

In real life, while I know they are out there, I have not met another child like my dd, brother, or nephew. I have a friend who is an doctors without borders, and he has treated three different pediatric patients through the years that he recommended never be vaccinated again. This is probably due to the sheer quantity of pediatric patients he has seen through his travels.

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/meningitis

 

I find this link helpful for a simple overview of what exactly meningitis is and what causes it, what the effects can be etc. it is Australia based not us. It would be a useful jumping off point for figuring out what to look for in scientific journals etc

[TammyS]

Right, the vaccine doesn't protect against all forms of meningitis.   I do think it is very important, IN ADDITION to getting the vaccine, to educate your kids on the symptoms of meningitis.  If treated right away, the outcomes can be better.  So many of the tragedies come from kids assuming it's just a "flu" and trying to sleep it off.  Knowing what to look for could help your child save themselves or a friend.

 

Again, I think the vaccine is VERY important, because in some cases even early treatment fails to save a life.

 

Ok, so where do we find information on telling the difference between the flu and meningitis?

[Pen]

There is not always a rash with meningitis, but if I did see a rash that looked like little broken blood vessels, I'd be thinking meningitis, just as there is not always a rash with lyme, but if I saw a typical bull's eye rash, I'd certainly be thinking lyme.

 

I think meningococcal meningitis is supposed to be more severe than most flu--but there is probably overlap.

 

Generally, I've seen symptom lists and the idea that if there are two or more of the symptoms to seek care for suspect meningitis.... The case in our area where death ensued occurred during a known outbreak, and the typical rash was supposed to have been present, but ignored by health care workers who sent the patient home with supposed cold or flu as I understood from news reports

 

 

"Meningococcal Disease

 

Invasive meningococcal disease is a bacterial infection that involves inflammation of the meninges of the brain and can lead to a serious blood infection. It is not easy to develop invasive meningococcal infection. You have to be susceptible and have regular close personal contact, such as sharing a toothbrush with or kissing person, who is colonizing meningococcal organisms.

 

Symptoms of invasive meningococcal infection include fever; severe headache; painful, stiff neck; nausea and vomiting; inability to look at bright lights; mental confusion and irritability; extreme fatigue/sleepiness; convulsions and unconsciousness. In babies, signs of “irritability†can include persistent crying or high pitched screaming with arching of the back, which are symptoms of encephalitis or brain inflammation;

 

...

Between 10% and 15% of meningococcal cases are fatal with another 10% to 20% ending with brain damage or loss of limbs. It is estimated that, annually, there are between 150 and 300 meningococcal deaths in the U.S. with an average of 16 babies under age 12 months dying from the disease;

 

At any given time, about 20 to 40 percent of Americans are asymptomatically colonizing meningococcal organisms in their nasal passages and throats, which throughout life boosts innate immunity to invasive meningococcal infection. Mothers, who have innate immunity, transfer maternal antibodies to their newborns to protect them in the first few months of life until babies can make their own antibodies. By the time American children enter adolescence, the vast majority have asymptomatically developed immunity that protects them."

 

The above is from a site that tends to be against vaccination so far as I can tell: http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Meningitis.aspx

 

 

NY Times on Warning Signs of Meningitis

Q: Meningitis manifests itself similarly to the flu. How can you tell the difference between the initial stages of meningitis and a really bad case of influenza?

 

A: It can be really hard. I think that is what is so frightening for parents. We like to believe we can control our situations and it can be difficult. I think meningitis is easier - the symptoms are headache, intolerance to light, stiff neck and back, high fever, nausea and vomiting. For an older child, of course, that is much easier to figure out than in a younger child. Sepsis symptoms, however, can be even more confusing. A child can be fine or have muscle pain and nausea that looks like an influenza infection, but then rapidly progress and develop a petechial rash - that looks like broken blood vesicles and means something is horribly wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/health/healthguide/esn-meningitis-expert.html

[Pen]

I don't know why my paragraphs are being run together without spacing. A lot of features don't seem to work for me lately.

[skimerinkydo]

Know this symptom : Neck stiffness and pain that makes it difficult to touch your chin to your chest

 

I'm sure there are more but this is one I am familiar with.

 

When my children were very young there was a meningitis outbreak in that state and our pediatrician always checked for a stiff neck when I brought in a sick child- he would have the child stand and look toward their toes. That knowledge helped later.

 

My son got viral meningitis in first grade. He had been sick and then he slept an unusual amount and acted very sick when he woke up. I did the stiff neck check and he could not look down. I could not make his head bend forward at all. There was no doubt that this was the symptom. I took him to the emergency room at the hospital and they immediately started him on strong antibiotics. He was transferred to a children's hospital and it took a few days to get the test results back to find out what kind of meningitis it was.

 

Several years ago a child of someone at our church got bacterial meningitis while away at college. She nearly died and they had to do brain surgery to relieve the pressure on her brain. Nothing to mess with.

[Splash]

There are also two meningitis vaccines available now.  In addition to the current CDC recommended meningitis vaccine there is a newly approved Meningitis B vaccine  available.  It can be difficult to obtain, we had to go round and round to get it for our dd.  This is the strain that most recently killed students at University of Oregon  in 2015.  

[redsquirrel]

Quote feature not working today. Thank you all for your replies thus far. I'll let my ds read the thread. ABCMommy, thanks for the links to the stories. I have especially linked those for my ds to read. As they also do some of what Joules points out is important which is to give a sense of symptoms to look for--and maybe in a more useful way than a list that gives "flu-like symptoms, headache, nausea, ..." in list form TechWife, BlsdMama, justasque, thank you particularly for the bunch of good places to start gathering more research and thoughts and ideas. Creekland: How would you suggest finding people who have had the illness to interview them? Even knowing that 4 people at our state university in a city not so far away got it a few years ago, I would not know how to find the 3 survivors to interview them. Otherwise the incidence is around 2 per million in the USA, and our community has only around 1-2000 people in the nearest 50 square miles or so, with none who have had the relevant types of meningitis so far as I know. Hornblower: The problem of multiple different things causing meningitis is important. It seems to cut in multiple directions. Not only may it be that someone who got meningitis despite being vaccinated was not vaccinated for the type of meningitis the person got, but as well, some of the stories about the horrors of a particular case of meningitis may have been from a form of meningitis different than what is being contemplated (or even possible currently) for a vaccination. We had an outbreak of a meningitis in an area not far from where we live, with one death, for example, but it was a different serotype than covered by the vaccine that is generally given to children/teens. And the death that occurred seemed to be due to failure of the hospital that the sick person went to, after a known outbreak was already underway, to start antibiotics or to consider meningitis despite, apparently, typical rash symptom along with flu-like symptoms. So what exact serotype did Blake in the NMA story have? What serotype did the schoolmate of Bethany Grace who had to have all limbs amputated and died anyway have? What about people exposed to these people--did they get sick also? Were they all vaccinated? Did they receive prophylactic antibiotics? And such a lot of stories of twins seemingly where one contracts the illness and dies, and the other is, apparently, not sick at all. Almost every story seems to raise more questions for me than it answers. Mergath: As to the question of could there be cancer causing substances in the vaccines, I don't know the answer. But I have no reason to believe there could not be. I am old enough to have experienced a time when cigarette smoking was allowed in my schools, as well as many other public places, and was considered hip and cool by students and teachers alike, and saying anything against it was to be seen as a crazy odd-ball. It was not, tmk, the big peer reviewed scientific journals that started to show that there were problems with cigarettes. Eventually, yes, they may have gotten on board. But at the start? It took a long time--decades-- even after people started to recognize issues with it, before the general public started to understand that there was a problem, and even longer before it became understood that the companies that made cigarettes knew and had hidden the info. Could something similar be going on with regard to things done by the pharmaceutical industry? Or is it an industry of saints? Even if it is an industry dominated by saints, can they behave in a saintly fashion if the main job of a corporation is to maximize profit?

 

That isn't an accurate description of how and why the truth about the health impact of cigarettes was suppressed. It's not even a good timeline, unless you were going to school in the 1950s.

 

And you didn't say in your original post that there could be cancer causing substances in vaccines, you wrote:

 

"possibility that short term acute illness is being lessened, but long term chronic illness, cancer etc. increased (either accidentally or deliberately)"

 

To say that cancer is deliberately being increased is a very different supposition than to ask about the safety of the contents of a vaccine.

 

And neither have anything to do with the tobacco industry and it's history of buying junk science and repressing good science and then using the legal system to shut down challenges.

 

[MotherGoose]

You know how they tell you to take your infant into the doctor, when under 2 months old, if they have a fever of 100.5 or greater? That's because they are too young to be vax for meningitis. If they have a temp like that and are too young for vax, they will be subjected to all sorts of horrible things, including a spinal tap, if the doctor can't find some other reasonable explanation for the fever --flu, ear infection, etc. I believe the vax they get as children and the one they recommend for college students are for bacterial and viral meningitis. Infants get the meningitis vax at about 2 months, and then fevers aren't treated by such drastic measures. My sister, a pediatrician, told me this.

[Pen]

Good quote function is working

 

That isn't an accurate description of how and why the truth about the health impact of cigarettes was suppressed. It's not even a good timeline, unless you were going to school in the 1950s.

 

And you didn't say in your original post that there could be cancer causing substances in vaccines, you wrote:

 

"possibility that short term acute illness is being lessened, but long term chronic illness, cancer etc. increased (either accidentally or deliberately)"

 

To say that cancer is deliberately being increased is a very different supposition than to ask about the safety of the contents of a vaccine.

 

And neither have anything to do with the tobacco industry and it's history of buying junk science and repressing good science and then using the legal system to shut down challenges.

 

I reported truthfully on my personal experience with regard to smoking issues. Smoking bans are generally a state or local law matter,  so it may be that you are generalizing from a personal experience in schools with regard to smoking allowed or not allowed and considered cool or uncool that is quite different than mine.  I didn't say smoking was allowed at your school. I said it was allowed at mine--more than one of mine, in more than one state of the USA. I'll pass on giving my age, but I was in school longer ago than 1994 or 2011 as the below items relate to.

 

 

Congress Considers Smoking Ban in Schools - NYTimes.com

www.nytimes.com/1994/.../congress-considers-smoking-ban-in-schools.html

‎

 

Mar 23, 1994 ... The sweeping provision was made public today by House and Senate ... Theprovision would ban smoking not only in schools that receive Federal ... is part of the $12.7 billion Improving America's Schools Act, which expands ...

 

 

 

Model Policy for a Tobacco-free Environment in Minnesota's K-12 Schools (2011)

 

 

 

 

As to cancer causing substances in vaccines, I thought that Mergath was asking me whether I believed what was in the article I linked. And I was responding to that. 

 

YMMV