I visited a ps 1st grade yesterday...

[nature girl]

So we've been trying to figure out what to do for next year, and I wanted to get a sense as to whether ps might be possible, now that Anna's behavior has improved somewhat. She'll be at around a 2nd grade level in all areas (with the exception of handwriting), but socially she's more like a 3 year old, so we wouldn't want to put her in 2nd. Because she has a September birthday (our state's cutoff is Oct.) they were leaving grade up to us.

 

Anyway, when I came in yesterday morning the class was at their desks watching the eagle baby live-cam. Which I thought was fantastic, I had such high hopes in the first two minutes, that sort of thing would be perfect for her. Well, it was all downhill from there.

 

The kids spent the next hour and a half doing reading/spelling, and it was seriously like an old-time schoolhouse. The teacher would point at a phoneme and say, "o-o /oo/ goose!" The kids repeated: o-o /oo/ goose!" Then, "o-o /u/ flood..." Repeat, repeat, repeat for about 25 phonemes. Then the kids took turns getting up and being the teacher, doing the same thing with the 25 phonemes. Then there was spelling of sight words with flashcards for 10-15 minutes. She'd hold up a word and the kids would say in unison, "Would! W-o-u-l-d, would! Could! C-o-u-l-d, could!"

 

Anna would not survive. Like, even if she was able to get up with an aide mid-lesson and run around outside, she would implode if she had to sit there for more than 10 minutes.

 

I asked whether there was any choice time, or time for the kids to create, the school psych said they had an hour of art each week...Then she said teachers are more creative with science, and with some of the writing. But there's no freedom at all to explore interests. I will say the teacher was extremely patient, very receptive to and respectful of the kids when they asked questions. I liked her a lot, and I'm sure she's a great teacher. But the structure just feels soul-deadening.

 

I feel so sad thinking about this. To be completely honest, I feel burned out just from being around Anna all day, I'm a quiet introvert, and she's so demanding, always loud, climbing on me, much as I adore her spirit I don't have time to breathe. And I know she needs more socialization than I've been able to provide living here, our hs community is very small, she hasn't really bonded with anyone and there aren't many activities. But the only way she could possibly succeed in that environment would be for us to medicate her, and I'm not about to medicate just to turn her into an automaton.

 

Is this really what 1st grade is like? Or did I just sit in on the wrong class/teacher? Is there any way to inject freedom (like come out myself with crafts or pretend play stuff so she could leave the classroom for an hour a day to be herself? Maybe come up with independent writing projects so she could write her own stories?) How do kids with ADHD ever succeed in this environment? I now feel like we'll probably be at home till at least high school (where at least they have electives.) I can't imagine an environment like this ever really working for us.

 

(Last week we were studying parts of the brain. Anna wanted to know what it would be like if the part of the brain responsible for vision was damaged, so I blindfolded her and tried to direct her around the house, then gave her a yardstick to see if she could make her way around. Then I showed her a video, and she ended up poking a pencil in various places through paper to make her own braille and see how well she could feel it...Where in ps is there room for any rabbit trails or independent thought?)

 

I don't even know if I'm asking a question here, or just expressing sadness and frustration and resignation.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Anna's Mom

[Hilltopmom]

Yeah, my SIL is still (I quit a decade ago) teaching & she reports that's pretty much how things are these days.

 

We used to have centers the kids could rotate through- a craft, reading group, a file folder math game, independent reading time, manipulatives, fun stuff. But- there still wasn't room for rabbit trails... Part of why

I quit.

 

Total bummer, huh. I wonder how much of it like half the kids were getting out of it anyways..

 

As much as I'd love to get a break & hand off the education responsibility, I can't do that to them.

[maize]

Are there any Montessori schools in your area? Charter schools that might have a different philosophy?

 

Our area has quite a few options if you are willing to drive, I look into school options at least once a year. I know though that some places have few or none.

[PeterPan]

Well I think it varies with the school, that's for sure.  You aren't yet asking the correct question though.  She's clearly gifted in some areas, struggling in others, and she needs an IEP.  Have you yet made a written request for evals?  You cannot know what the school would like for her and what they would do until you get evals through them and an IEP.  You've described significant issues they would have to address.  They would probably qualify her for OT, maybe bump her up for some classes, have goals for her anxiety, etc. etc.  It's not like she's going to be able to go in and just function without an IEP, and it's not like legally they're going to require her to do so, over the long haul, without an IEP.  The question is how long it will TAKE to get the IEP and whether they'll do it now or require her to be there a grading period before beginning.

 

Some schools will go ahead and do evals and get it going.  Some will say enroll her, let them watch her, then let them decide.  So my suggestion is that if you want NEXT year to go well and they won't do evals without evidence (observation, a grading period), then go ahead and enroll her.  You're burnt out, you've done what you wanted, and K5 will be a more flexible environment.  The IEP process can take a while to get going and rolling.  If you enroll her thinking they'll do it in the fall, it will be the end of the year before it's done.  If you enroll now, it forces that timetable.

 

Obviously that's only necessary if they won't do the evals and IEP.  If they'll do it just by you requesting, you're golden.  But since you've put school attendance on the table, my *guess* is they'll want her in there a grading period first.  Did you visit the K5?  It might be more flexible.  It will at least be *novel* and some kids with SN do ok with novelty.  My ds does novelty.  We had another IEP meeting yesterday and were chuckling over one of his prior psych reports that says he does well with novelty and their complaint that he couldn't have SN because he does well with novelty, lol.  Point is, a bright child might be enchanted, at least for a while, with the novelty.  And if she's not, then they're seeing the behavior and are forced to do evals, make the IEP, and give her interventions and goals to help her succeed.  They are NOT legally able to just take her in and let her FAIL.  They will come up with a plan. It's the law and it's what you advocate for.  Now you might not *like* the plan, but they'll do the evals, create the IEP/504, make goals, do interventions.

 

When you do that planning form the for the evals, be sure to mention EVERYTHING, including the anxiety.

[nature girl]

Are there any Montessori schools in your area? Charter schools that might have a different philosophy?

 

Our area has quite a few options if you are willing to drive, I look into school options at least once a year. I know though that some places have few or none.

 

There aren't any charters until 4th grade...The only Montessori in driving distance ends at K. There's a Waldorf, but it's $45,000 a year! And one very creative private school that could be perfect, but the last time I checked it was also in the 40's...Unbelievable (and impossible.)

[PeterPan]

Are there any Montessori schools in your area? Charter schools that might have a different philosophy?

 

Our area has quite a few options if you are willing to drive, I look into school options at least once a year. I know though that some places have few or none.

This is an interesting idea.  I wasn't really thinking through in my mind the idea of private schools.  I think if you're doing that you need to think through what kind of *structure* she needs to be successful.  If she her behavior issues increase when she has less structure, then you want to make sure she has enough structure to succeed.  And a private school isn't required to provide interventions (OT, interventions for anxiety and social skills, behavioral goals, etc.) the way the ps is.  You've got some very real issues to deal with, and you have to make sure the prospective school is used to working with kids who need that level of support to succeed.  

 

Honestly, to me part of it is meeting with the ps SN coor, signing that paper to start evals, and meeting their team.  You might meet them and go wow, these people really inspire confidence in me.  I'm serious.  Our ps has some people on the IEP team I REALLY LIKE, people that could really do a good service for my ds.  And there are some people who maybe are fabulous but don't have the particular skill sets he needs for his disabilities.  That's fine.  But I think meeting them, seeing what that mix could look like and who would be working with her could help you.  The school will take a TEAM approach, where homeschooling lobs it all on YOU.  Unless you can afford to expand your team, it's always just YOU, which burns you out and stretches you to the limit!

 

And to me, I would be asking a prospective private school who they handle kids with IEPs.  Some schools are like suck it up buttercup, and some schools are ON BOARD and going to be there for you.  I think it's really damaging to a child to be reprimanded and told they're BAD and NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH if the issue is needing interventions and supports.  And some private schools have more resources and connections to make that happen than others.  

 

I'll also observe that the money that would go into a private school could go into private therapy if the ps can at least get the academics to fit her.  The federal law (IDEA) *requires* them to acknowledge strenghts as well as weaknesses.  So if she qualifies as gifted by IQ, she has some extra protections on the academics, where they have to consider whether that is being acknowledged in the IEP and in the overall approach.  

[nature girl]

OhE, since she has a diagnosis they did mention putting together a child study team and doing an IEP (I guess a pre-IEP meeting, just talking with the study team) in May, if we enroll her for next year. So we could enroll her and then of course change our minds at any time. So we may just do that...

 

They also have a month-long summer program, 4 dpw for 2.5 hours a day, so could have the child study team come to watch her behavior there.

 

I don't even know what we could have included in the IEP though...She'd probably get OT (a half hour a week was what they told me last fall) and maybe writing, depending on what they found. I doubt this is possible, but could it be even remotely feasible to include some kind of creativity pull-out to keep her from becoming brain-dead? Seriously, I would come in and do it myself...Are parents ever allowed to sit with their kids to do some kind of creative work? Like Tinman Press workbook pages, art, Legos...Would they ever let that sort of thing be included in an IEP? (She's at a 4th grade level in reading, so I could imagine doing it during their typical reading time...)

 

I also wish we could just do half-days, but I guess that isn't legal...

[nature girl]

I met the school psychologist, and like her a lot, very warm, and seems to have a ton of experience. She spent time with Anna last fall, and they got along really well, and even in the half hour they spent together she really seemed to understand some of Anna's strengths and weaknesses. Anna would probably get a pull out once a week with the psych, maybe a lunch bunch with the psych for social skills. I'm not sure who else I could ask to meet.

 

I'll also observe that the money that would go into a private school could go into private therapy if the ps can at least get the academics to fit her.  The federal law (IDEA) *requires* them to acknowledge strenghts as well as weaknesses.  So if she qualifies as gifted by IQ, she has some extra protections on the academics, where they have to consider whether that is being acknowledged in the IEP and in the overall approach.  

 

I don't think she's gifted, at least not in a measurable way. She's bright, maybe verbally on the verge of gifted. But her gift is really in creativity, and being a deep thinker, I'm sometimes amazed by her wisdom and sense of humor. But I don't think school would ever acknowledge that, and can't really meet that kind of need.

[ssavings]

Our IEP includes her right to request breaks to pursue another topic or to just get outside for a bit.
It was actually offered by the school, not something I had to request/fight for. My DD is very much a low-key introvert, but we accepted it on the IEP, because it gives her the freedom to be done with a certain topic for a while and move onto something else, if need be. Even during standardized tests. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by ssavings

[nature girl]

Our IEP includes her right to request breaks to pursue another topic or to just get outside for a bit.

It was actually offered by the school, not something I had to request/fight for. My DD is very much a low-key introvert, but we accepted it on the IEP, because it gives her the freedom to be done with a certain topic for a while and move onto something else, if need be. Even during standardized tests. 

 

That's interesting! So can it be a topic of her choice? Like creating something, or reading a book of her choosing?

[OneStepAtATime]

I would look into the summer program and the team observing during that time.  It would give you a bit of a break, get the process started for an IEP if you chose to enroll her, and you and your daughter could see how the environment might work.  Of course, it is a MUCH shorter day and a summer program not regular school but still, it might help a bit.

 

As for your initial question, yes a lot of school is now very much like that, depending on the school.  It is very hard for one teacher to manage a large number of kids and encourage rabbit trails with very young children with our current educational structure.  My brother was actually in a University based 4k/kinder program several decades ago that was basically ALL interest led.  It was amazing.  I think there were 15 kids in the classroom, maybe 20, plus a teacher and a University student.  They did a ton of hands on learning, interest led learning, exploration, etc.  My brother thrived.  It ignited a life long love of learning.  I think something like that would be more possible in a standard classroom if classes were smaller, teacher training went a different direction so they would learn how to successfully implement such an environment, and it weren't so costly.

[Storygirl]

I know you didn't like the structure of the classroom, but I think it sounds awesome that they are on board with evaluating her for an IEP right off the bat. We enrolled and walked in with sheaves of papers of diagnoses, and our school refused to evaluate our kids until they had been in the classroom for a period of time. I would take advantage of their willingness to work with you.

 

If you decide to move forward with the IEP process, you might want to start a post asking for advice about what evaluations to request at that planning meeting. Making sure the right things are checked off on the evaluation form (there are boxes that have to be checked before they will evaluate things) is trickier than you might think.

 

The summer program sounds like it might be a good interim step, where you could get a break (totally understand the need for that!), and you could see how she functions in a school environment.

 

Also, I was really hesitant to put DS12 in school, because I wasn't sure he would function well and learn well in that environment. He is in school for the first time this year, and I was really pleasantly surprised about how well he adapted. Sometimes I think you don't know for sure until you try, and the summer program gives you a chance to try. It sounds like a great option to me!

 

I don't know if a school will allow a parent to come to the school to pull the child out. I think it's not a request they might have received before, and they would have to figure it out. But it is worth asking them.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Storygirl

[ssavings]

That's interesting! So can it be a topic of her choice? Like creating something, or reading a book of her choosing?

 

Yep! She can request to move on to another topic, color, draw, read, go to one of the stations, do one of her computer programs, etc. 

[nature girl]

I guess I didn't mention, but the summer program is Special Ed. It's partly academic, partly social skills.

 

I kind of hate the idea of her having to do that kind of schooling in summer, but including travel it's only 3 hours a day and the social skills might be good for her. (Sounds like the social skills is partly speech, though, since I think the class has a number of kids on the spectrum who need that support.) I guess I could have her join to get a feel for what school is like (even though it would be very different from a typical school day) and then pull her if she hated it or wasn't getting anything from it. On the other hand, if she really is going to spend the rest of her childhood in school, I hate to start it a month earlier than necessary... *torn*

[Lecka]

Here the building principal can give permission.

 

We got permission for my son to leave early one day a week for OT. I did schedule that with the teacher. She said for this block of time, it would not be a problem. But for other blocks of time, she would not want him to miss, b/c she might do part 1 of something in the afternoon and part 2 the next morning. But she had a schedule laid out.

 

The other kids I know who have gotten permission are also going for therapy.

 

But anyway -- I don't think it "has" to be for therapy.

 

But it can be hard on kids when they are maybe missing a chapter of the story the teacher is reading, b/c she squeezed in a chapter in the afternoon. Or they say in the morning "this afternoon we will do blah blah."

 

But I am, on one hand, happy with my kids' school. On the other hand, I am just not put off by the description of the explicit phonics instruction. The kids sound engaged and learning to me. I can see my daughter doing well with that.

 

I wouldn't want her to do it all day long, but a long reading block is fine with me. But that doesn't mean it would work for every child. But it sounds like the kids there were engaged and liked being the teacher, and I could see my daughter being one of those kids, if that makes sense.

 

I think if you think of that as soul-deadening, that is different.

 

Specifically on that ---- if your daughter is more advanced in reading, do they have reading levels? They do where I am, so I think it would be a bit of a non-issue, b/c she would be off reading books with her reading group, probably.

 

I think it is really up to you..... and I think, on one hand, I don't think my kids' school is "like this" ------ but I also think, maybe if you went in for two hours, yeah, there could be 90 minutes where they are doing more teacher-led instruction. But to me, the part where the different kids get to be the teacher is charming. So that is a perspective thing for sure, and it sounds like you do a lot of really creative things with her at home.

[Tiramisu]

I just can't help myself, and I know you didn't mean it this way...but sometimes I wish meds could turn a certain kid into an automaton for just a little while. 😉

 

People sometimes say that about meds but I really never heard of anyone ever having that reaction.

 

And being able to breathe is important. If you're seeing improvements, I wouldn't rush to meds... but you have to breathe, for both of you.

 

Sorry. I know this isn't a med conversation.

[nature girl]

Oh I know, that's not what I meant at all, I guess I worded it badly! What I meant is that the kids in that class all seemed like automatons, and I'm guessing that in order for her to ever be able to sit as still and compliant as they were, she'd need to be medicated. And that I'm not willing to medicate just to make her into a child who is able to sit chanting the letters and sounds of phonemes.

[Lecka]

You are the one who was there, and maybe they really were more like automatons. But from your description, to me they sound engaged.

 

For my son, he does better when he is engaged. Now -- I don't know if he would be able to do this activity, either.

 

But he benefits a lot from doing things where kids are engaged aka doing something.

 

I don't think it is so bad to be engaged in that way.

 

I also remember that I did that kind of thing in school, and we would be excited when we got a new sound, and when we thought we sounded really good. We took a pride in it, to be honest. But we did other things, too, it is not like that is all we did.

 

But it just is something where ----- if it is a huge turn-off to you, then it is a huge turn-off.

 

But saying kids seem like automatons is a pretty loaded judgment on your part I think. I do think, maybe if you knew these kids or saw them in other settings, you would see them as more fully-formed people, and not just automatons sitting and chanting a lesson.

 

Which, I get that it is hyperbole.

 

But also, I think you could take a more positive impression if you wanted to.

 

But if you just know that it is not what you want, that is totally fair, I think. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

 

And, I don't even know that I should try do defend this classroom. It might be pretty bad.

 

Edit: I guess what I am thinking is, if you had gone and seen them playing instruments or singing, they might also be doing the same thing at the same time.

 

But if they were playing instruments or singing, would you go "they are automatons."

 

To me, I put it more on a level where it could be similar to practicing a song for a music program. The kids are also all doing something together, saying something together, at the same time, then, too. And probably doing hand motions. And, I don't think it is a stretch to say that is like an automaton, too, b/c it is.

 

And, maybe that would be a turn-off, to, I know it is to some people. And not all kids like it, either. But I think it is something where, maybe you would think of it differently if you thought of it with a music class.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Lecka

[Noreen Claire]

Just a thought but, as I have a son in public school 1st grade, I wanted to point out that you visited a well-run classroom towards the end of the year. This class would have looked completely different in September/October/November. Your daughter won't be expected to behave like that on day 1.

 

Just something to keep in mind. Good luck with your decisions.

[Lecka]

Oh, that is a really good point. That is so true.

[Lecka]

I do take a skill-based view more than a developmengal view in a lot of ways, too.

 

That is a balance between thinking more, kids just get to an age when they can sit and focus more, and then they just do it.

 

Or, thinking that kids start small and practice and work their way up to more.

 

And -- I think both are true, but there is a part of me that is more for the "practice" view. But I think it is just an opinion I have.

[nature girl]

I do take a skill-based view more than a developmengal view in a lot of ways, too.

 

That is a balance between thinking more, kids just get to an age when they can sit and focus more, and then they just do it.

 

Or, thinking that kids start small and practice and work their way up to more.

 

And -- I think both are true, but there is a part of me that is more for the "practice" view. But I think it is just an opinion I have.

 

And what if a child is 6 or 7 and has never had that sort of practice? And is put together with kids, many of whom have been at this since their academic preschool days? That's another thought I have, to Anna "school" is sitting on the couch with mom, playing math games and reading good books while we cuddle...No matter how good the school is, even if it's not as horrible as that hour-plus there made me imagine, it still will/would be a huge culture shock to her.

[Lecka]

Sorry, I have been thinking about this more, and I do think that "bottom-in-seat" is a stupid reason to medicate. Definitely.

 

But what are good reasons to medicate, in my opinion?

 

In my opinion, they are to help kids socially, and to help kids be able to participate in activities they want to participate in.

 

I have seen kids who have trouble socially and who have trouble participating in fun, non-school activities, and who did a lot better in those areas with medication.

 

So I think you know, if this is just a "bottom-in-seat" issue, but she is doing well with social opportunities, and she can participate in things that interest her and that are fun for her.

 

But I don't think that is every kid.

 

But, that is how I look at it.

 

I am not someone who thinks: don't medicate if you don't have to make them be "bottom-in-seat" in public school, and there is no other reason to do it.

[nature girl]

I think we're on the same page, Lecka. And it *does* prevent her from doing some of what I wish she could do. But on the other hand, she's enjoying life, she's a pretty happy kid. So...this is why I'm torn.

 

(There are some social issues, but a good part of that is because of the limited choice she has in potential hs friends, only one girl her age who is extremely quiet and shy and is, I think, intimidated by her. There are a few kids she plays with, but no best friends. I don't know if that would even change with meds (although of course if meds allowed her to be in school she'd have more opportunity. I'm not sure how she'd do socially in a school setting unmedicated.)

[MistyMountain]

My kids go to a very structured school where they do phonograms. My add kids actually thrive in structure. It helps organize them and they do well in a class that is not really chaotic. One of my kids talks out of turn and gets up a lot. There is a lot less time for personal interests but they do get to do their assignments based on interests and talk about them a little. In my area we have the more open child led charters where kids can explore their interests but those classes often had open classrooms and were very loud. They also did sight word heavy reading methods and math curriculums I was not crazy about. The teachers described it as controlled chaos and that just does not work for my kids.

 

There are pros and cons to all decisions. My kids do have less time for passions in the public school. They have less free time and it takes longer to get things done in a school setting. That is one aspect I really do not like. I feel like some of ds's passion and intensity has been lost this year to full day school. He is tired and has less time for it and had struggles. I contemplated pulling but I also struggled when I tried to do it myself and I need to go back to work soon. At the same time I do feel the teachers this year care and get to know the kids really well and the kids get to know them and my kids are doing well socially.

Edited April 15, 2016 by MistyMountain

[PeterPan]

AM, if you're wanting to know what would happen without meds and whether she could do it without meds, again the IEP process is how you figure that out.  They would do the evals and create an IEP (individualized education plan) where it would list EVERYTHING.  The ps cannot legally require you to put her on meds, whereas they *are* legally required to give her enough support that she can function.  So you don't have to answer the med question now.  You could put her in, see how she could function with the level of support they could provide (probably SIGNIFICANT), and then decide.

 

And yes I agree with the others that a structured classroom with clear expectations is probably going to be a good thing for her.  I've worked really hard to have structure with ds, and you wouldn't believe the amount of structure the behaviorist has added in ON TOP of what we were already doing.  It's like triple and quadruple structure.  I NEVER would have gotten this far on my own!  

 

Whether you want to take their ideas and implement at home or decide to enroll her, either way you'd only learn by going through the IEP process.  I found what stretched me was seeing other people's perspectives and vision for my ds, realizing they saw potential I hadn't yet seen.  

[*****]

The kind of reading you described sounds like the Spalding method (similar to SWR). It sounds 'old school', but by reciting out loud together, it can actually be helpful to those students who would struggle if you called on them independently to give the sounds. So this can be helpful for those struggling. To actually have a structured phonics program is pretty impressive.

 

When I observed a 1st grade classroom years ago, like you did, the kids who were the top readers got the 'privilege' of  doing research and writing beginning reports on animals. Excuse me?  This was first grade!  I was not at all for that...there would be enough time later for writing reports. We homeschooled instead. (By the way, my daughter was very bright, but was not one to enjoy writing...we took our time in that area.  She is now in college, doing what she loves...studying animal science. She is a very good writer as well!)

 

It is good that the IEP team sounds on board already. If your daughter is above average in reading, I wonder if she could maybe go to a 2nd grade class for reading? Or if that time is too long...could you do reading at home, and she could spend the rest of the day at school? Yes, you can shorten her day if you need to. Or yes, if you can go into the school, that could be a good idea.  I am just throwing out options to think about. We do have a gifted and talented program in our school. I can't believe the number of kids they have can all fall under the 'truly gifted' label, because really, I think that would be a rather smaller number of students with the high IQ and what ever else it takes to qualify.   But I think schools have this program because they recognize there are some kids who need more...so maybe your daughter would qualify for that program. 

 

Also, I think the summer program could be ideal for her. She will get to know other kids before fall...so socially that can ease some anxiety. The teachers will get to know her and her needs. And she will learn some structure of expectations that will be needed to get along in a classroom...all in a shortened day that sounds engaging.  I wouldn't be too quick to pull her out. She will need an adjustment period. I would think starting a full day of school without this would be much harder! 

Keep us posted on what you end up doing. Just remember...one day at a time!

[nature girl]

Thank you...They're going to send me more information about the summer program, and let me talk to the Special Ed director, so we should be able to decide for sure soon. The program isn't actually in her school, the school we're districted for doesn't actually have a Special Ed classroom, only half-hour long pull-outs for kids with SLD's. This is another school in our district that has a class for kids all over the township, those with issues that are solely behavior-related like ADHD and HFA. The summer program includes a subset of the kids in the school-year program...I guess it would be a chance to try the program to see if it's a good fit for next year, but the psych guessed that it wouldn't be, first because it's all boys for some reason, and kids with more severe behavior issues. It's also a 35 minute drive each way--as opposed to the school we're districted for which is only 12 minutes--so I'd like to avoid that if possible. It would be an option if she didn't succeed in the main classroom (but I think if she didn't succeed we'd just pull her back out.)

 

I'm going to ask about the possibility of taking her out mid-day, or coming in to work with her, at least for the beginning while she gets used to the structure.

 

The reading program they use is called Fundations, which I'd never heard of till I Googled it. It looks like a decent program, primarily phonics-based but with 100 sight words, so not quite Spalding. (They're using Everyday Math, though. :thumbdown: ) She said they don't have pull-outs for kids who are ahead in reading or math, only those who need help, but they do at least have separate reading groups. The Fundations program is in addition to that though, and something all the kids sit through even if they've mastered those skills. I'm starting RS C with Anna next week, expect to be about halfway done if we continue through the summer, so she'll definitely be ahead in math (although she hasn't done much subtraction.) Not sure what I can do about that, I'm expecting she wouldn't really gain many academic skills next year, it would just be a year of adjustment. I'm not even sure how I feel about that...

 

Seriously, I've gone back and forth like a ping pong...Yesterday was such a good day, Anna was happy, calm, enjoying learning, and I thought, WHY AM I DOING THIS? (Ironically, we hs because of her SN's, but if she behaved neurotypically I'd probably keep her home without even bothering to look over that fence.) The idea of not being with her for 8 hours a day kills me. But there are days she's all over the place, we both are miserable. And then I look at all the posts on K-8, think about them no longer being applicable and feel homesick. And back and forth and back again...I guess there's no way to know for sure unless we try, and even then we might not really know.

[Storygirl]

Do you have any private schools in your area that work with atypical learners? DD10 is enrolling in one next year, because she has dyslexia, but the school also works with kids who have ADHD, including 2e students. As you would expect, it is expensive, but they really can do accommodate for some things that the public school does not.

 

:grouphug:  School decisions are hard. I didn't want to send my kids to school, but homeschooling was taking a toll on me. I'm also an introvert with very loud, active children who need constant attention. So I completely understand that part of it.

 

If the academics are not a perfect fit, would you be able to do some afterschooling? It might depend on whether they expect homework for first grade and how tired Anna is later in the day.

[wendyroo]

WHY AM I DOING THIS? (Ironically, we hs because of her SN's, but if she behaved neurotypically I'd probably keep her home without even bothering to look over that fence.) The idea of not being with her for 8 hours a day kills me. But there are days she's all over the place, we both are miserable. And then I look at all the posts on K-8, think about them no longer being applicable and feel homesick. And back and forth and back again...I guess there's no way to know for sure unless we try, and even then we might not really know.

 

I think it is vitally important to think deeply about that exactly question: why you are considering public school.  Public school may be the best choice, but if you really focus on the specific issues you are hoping to fix, then you might find there are other possible solutions that would not require as much upheaval and adjustment.

 

My oldest, Peter, has ASD and ADHD and severe anxiety.  He just turned 7 and many days he requires more of me than the three younger children combined.  I often fantasize about sending him to public school, but he is so advanced academically and so delayed socially and so hyper and distractable and anxious and impulsive that it simply would not be a good fit for him.

 

Knowing that, however, obviously does not make it any easier to deal with him day in and day out.  Since we have decided that sending him to public school is not a viable option right now, we have had to think of other ways to meet his needs while limiting stress on the rest of the family.  For example, Peter is required to play quietly by himself for two hours every afternoon.  Some days he enjoys it and other days he really doesn't, but DH and I firmly enforce that unless there is an emergency, Peter may not interact with anyone during quiet time.  This may seen harsh, but we feel that "forcing" him to play outside or with legos or draw or read is preferable to sending him to school where there would be even more onerous impositions on his freedom.

 

We also look for opportunities other than school for Peter to interact with other kids.  We considered a local learning center which offers reasonably priced after-school care where Peter could play with peers for several hours each weekday afternoon (they also did a short homework time each day during which he could have finished his independent work).  In the end we joined the YMCA so it would benefit the whole family.  Peter takes a swimming class and a sports class each session so he has structured social activities.  I also drop all the kids off in the Kid Zone 3 afternoons a week (specifically after school so there are older kids there) so they can play with peers while I exercise, take a class, swim, walk on the track or just sit quietly.

 

In no way do these activities or any of the rest of the extensive, meticulous daily structure that Peter needs to function, make parenting him easy.  It is still endlessly challenging/frustrating/soul-sucking, but with a lot of work (and medications) we can make it manageable.

 

Wendy

[PeterPan]

AM, I'm kind of astonished they're suggesting you put her into a summer special ed class without having done observations, an IEP, ANYTHING.  That doesn't make sense, and I'm also astonished that you're considering it since the psych says it's NOT a good fit.  You're going to have to read between the lines here.

 

That summer class is not reflective of her placement for fall.  Are they saying they would mainstream her and add services, or are they saying she would go into a special ed classroom??  The law REQUIRES them to go for the least restrictive environment.  If she can be mainstreamed, she has to be mainstreamed.  So look at what you're saying.  You're saying oh I'll send her in for the summer with a whole class of boys who had the most challenging behavior IN THE WHOLE DISTRICT, and go yeah that's what school will be like!  

 

That doesn't make sense.  I would get the IEP and let them show you what supports they would put in place for her.  What if she went to school for just a *week*?  Wouldn't be long enough for her to get bored, because it would be novel.  Go for a week, let them observe her.  It's in a K5 class.  What can go wrong in a K5 class?  There's plenty of interesting stuff to do.  They observe her, you get a break, they sort it out.

 

None of this makes sense till you have an IEP in-hand.

[PeterPan]

I think Wendy has a good point about the whys.  I would distinguish enrolling from getting an IEP.  *Let them make an IEP.*  Seriously.  You pay taxes that cover these services, and they are trying to give you help.  The IEP is going to cover all kinds of things you might not have thought of, very practical things, and doing that will let you see things that are like WOW I COULD DO THAT TOO!  So no matter what, for you, an IEP is a win-win.  It doesn't force you to enroll.  It just gives you more information.

 

THEN you look at the IEP and you go that's nuts.  Or you realize them emphasized something that maybe you hadn't doing interventions on.  Or you decide some combination approach would work, like keeping her home but getting interventions from them a day each week.  Your ps SHOULD have OT, SLPs, someone to work on social skills and behavior, etc.  They could give you these services.  The IEP unlocks all that.  You could, through the IEP process, realize that you'd like to bring in some private help (BCBA, whatever).  I mean, if a school is saying hey from what you're describing we would put her directly into special ed classrooms, that she couldn't mainstream, that's pretty serious!  And to me, that's WAY more important than her subtraction, I'm sorry.  That is such a rabbit trail.  In about 10 years the ONLY thing you're going to be crying about is her social skills, anxiety, and rigidity.  You won't be crying about her academics.  You have to get the academics to keep them happy, yes.  But you have to get them the therapies for the social skills, anxiety, etc., or they won't be able to DO anything with the academics.  You'll have won battles and lost the war.  :(

 

You don't have to choose to use the school in the end to get an IEP.  They're willing to help you and you want help.  I get frustrated with our IEP process, but reality is they are highly focused on FUNCTION and getting the kid able to FUNCTION.  That's what you need help with, and that's what they want to help you with.  It's a no brainer to take the help.  

[Seeking Squirrels]

I am far from highly experienced in this area, as it's all still pretty new to us. But your situation sounds a lot like mine just before first, so I thought I'd share. My DD was all over the place, SO on the go and needing more, more, MORE of my attention. Literally climbing the walls, crashing all about and talking non. stop. I had always wanted to homeschool but quite honestly, she was driving me crazy and I needed a break from her. We were able to join a charter that has a homeschool one-day-a-week program. So one day a week through first grade I got to drop her off at 9 and pick her up at 3:30. I got a sanity break and she got to be in a different environment. It did help save us that year from me completely losing it, but it wasn't perfect by any stretch. During that year we received her SPD and ADHD diagnosis and began OT.

 

For second grade, I didn't feel as much like I HAD to have that day away from her, but we stayed with the charter because she enjoyed it. But home was still difficult. Getting through our work was such a challenge. We couldn't get through a math lesson without me near tears and her either melting down or close to it. We finally decided to medicate a couple months ago, and it has been amazing for her. It's only chilled her *just enough* that she CAN focus, if she decides to. I actually measure how it helps her by my own blood pressure, which her doc said is perfectly reasonable. I was really worried about it changing her too much, but it hasn't. I've also been trying really hard over the past few months to let go of my previous expectations for what our school should look like and meet her where she is.

 

Things have been going much smoother now. We still have our moments; just had one yesterday in fact where she ended up hiding in her room for an hour after a math lesson went downhill. But between meds, OT, and restructuring to meet her needs, we're getting there. We are also working with the charter to start the IEP process, so we'll see where that takes us, as well.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Whovian10

[katilac]

I would definitely get an evaluation, either through the school or privately. 

 

I agree with those who say that observing a teacher-intensive reading block does not necessarily speak to the rest of the day, and the kids sound engaged from your description. I also think it's possible Anna might be more able to handle it than you suspect (she doesn't have to be quiet or sit perfectly still, she will get practice, the group aspect offers support, kids often perform better for others, etc) but, if not, there are alternatives. It sounds like this school is willing to accommodate in lots of ways, which is not always the case.

 

However, school will always be school. While most could do better in many ways, it is logistically impossible to treat a class full of varied students the way we can treat our very own kids at home. fwiw, I don't think the reading session was negative or unreasonable for mid-April 1st graders in and of itself, you really have to know what the whole day/week is like. 

 

Do you feel that needing a break from each other is one of the main reasons y'all are struggling? If so, I would make a list of ALL of the ways this need might be met, including but not limited to school. Such as: 

 

• Boys and Girls club or similar
• private sitter a few times a week 
• assuming dad lives in the home, schedule 1 or 2 evenings per week where you leave the house (scheduled or it won't happen)
• afternoons at a local daycare  

I'm sure there are more options I may not be thinking about. Of these, I would do the evening out for sure if at all possible, even if I did other things as well. Sometimes you will be too tired for it to even sound appealing, but force yourself to leave, even if you drive around the corner and then nap or read in the backseat, lol. It will pay off. 

 

From the rest, afternoon daycare is my favorite, because she will get practice socializing without academic or other expectations. Many kids in my area go to daycare when school is done, the school's program cannot accommodate everyone. I think they send a van to the school to pick them up. 

 

You might also consider a summer camp instead of the summer school. If your dd doesn't have aggressive behaviors, they might agree to put her in a lower age group. This would increase her chances of social success, and there would be fewer expectations of sitting still and so forth. 

[nature girl]

Oh, a lot to think about. I've been doing a lot of soul searching, not that it's helped much...Thank you all for your thoughts, they're really helping me to sort through this.

 

Do you have any private schools in your area that work with atypical learners? DD10 is enrolling in one next year, because she has dyslexia, but the school also works with kids who have ADHD, including 2e students. As you would expect, it is expensive, but they really can do accommodate for some things that the public school does not.

 

If the academics are not a perfect fit, would you be able to do some afterschooling? It might depend on whether they expect homework for first grade and how tired Anna is later in the day.

 

There actually is a school about 10 minutes from us that is specifically for kids with various LD's, including ADHD. But it's even more expensive than the Waldorf...They have financial aid, but I don't know that we'd qualify for much. Re: afterschooling, I'm imagining she'll have homework, and I hate the idea of extending a day that would already be mentally exhausting for her. Summer schooling maybe, or maybe a little on weekends, but I think I'd really want after school to be for her fun, creative interests. (We also have gymnastics and a social skills group that we have to fit in during the school week.)

 

Wendy, a lot of good thoughts, thank you. You know, I've asked myself why we're even considering this...Is it really for her good or only for myself? I tell myself she needs more structure and more social opportunities than I can give her, that it could be great for her, but when it comes down to it--like I said earlier--if it wasn't such a struggle sometimes I probably would keep her home, so...yeah. It's probably mostly for my own good, which feels so selfish. And maybe having a few hours apart here and there would be enough breathing space. On the other hand, I worry that continuing school might affect our bonding, I already sometimes feel more like teacher/disciplinarian than mom, and I can only imagine that getting worse as she gets older and I need to push school more. She's told me several times that she loves her dad more, or that dad is her favorite, and I know it's not necessarily that she loves him more, but that he's able to be the "fun" one more often. I want to be able to be that soft place, rather than the one pushing.

 

AM, I'm kind of astonished they're suggesting you put her into a summer special ed class without having done observations, an IEP, ANYTHING.  That doesn't make sense, and I'm also astonished that you're considering it since the psych says it's NOT a good fit.  You're going to have to read between the lines here.

 

That summer class is not reflective of her placement for fall.  Are they saying they would mainstream her and add services, or are they saying she would go into a special ed classroom??  The law REQUIRES them to go for the least restrictive environment.  If she can be mainstreamed, she has to be mainstreamed.  So look at what you're saying.  You're saying oh I'll send her in for the summer with a whole class of boys who had the most challenging behavior IN THE WHOLE DISTRICT, and go yeah that's what school will be like!  

 

That doesn't make sense.  I would get the IEP and let them show you what supports they would put in place for her.  What if she went to school for just a *week*?  Wouldn't be long enough for her to get bored, because it would be novel.  Go for a week, let them observe her.  It's in a K5 class.  What can go wrong in a K5 class?  There's plenty of interesting stuff to do.  They observe her, you get a break, they sort it out.

 

None of this makes sense till you have an IEP in-hand.

 

I don't think we'll have an actual IEP until they (a behaviorist, I guess?) observe her in the classroom, which they'd be able to do in the summer program or the beginning of the school year. If I'm understanding correctly, our meeting in May will be a pre-IEP meeting, to meet the study team and maybe to talk about whether she's more likely to qualify for an IEP or only a 504 Plan. So, in part, the summer program would allow her to get the IEP sooner. Even without it though, they think they'll be able to start her with an aide. They said whether to mainstream her or put her in special ed. full-time would be a joint decision, us and the study team, and it was one of the reasons I was visiting the 1st grade class, to see if I thought she'd be able to succeed there. The psych said her feeling is that she should at least try the mainstream classroom in the fall, they could move her if she didn't do well (although I'm sure I'd just pull her back home instead.) So the summer program is really to just try her in a structured program first, get some sense of how she'll do. I'm considering it because I think it makes sense to at least give her a flavor of what school is about, rather than just throwing her into an 8 hour day.

 

Maybe the K class makes sense? Although I doubt they'd be able to get her an aide just for a week. (Although they might, I haven't asked.) My one fear with that though, is that she's at her worst at the beginning of any change, until she gets used to things. The excitement of novelty ramps up her anxiety and makes her super hyperactive. So they wouldn't get a real flavor for how she'd be long-term. I don't know, it's worth a thought...I could maybe even put her in for a month instead of in the summer program, although again that would be throwing her straight into an 8 hour day in a strange environment, with no real supports. At least the summer program has a low teacher/student ratio.

 

We finally decided to medicate a couple months ago, and it has been amazing for her. It's only chilled her *just enough* that she CAN focus, if she decides to. I actually measure how it helps her by my own blood pressure, which her doc said is perfectly reasonable. I was really worried about it changing her too much, but it hasn't. I've also been trying really hard over the past few months to let go of my previous expectations for what our school should look like and meet her where she is.

 

Ah yes, that's another thing to consider: What if we tried meds just to make hs'ing easier for both of us? Even if it was just 3-4 hours 4-5 days a week? I don't medicate partly because I hs and can accommodate, but not medicating may drive me to stop hs'ing...Vicious circle, I feel like this is a puzzle with a million pieces scattered all over the floor. Or maybe 20 puzzles with 20 different pictures.

 

I'm sure there are more options I may not be thinking about. Of these, I would do the evening out for sure if at all possible, even if I did other things as well. Sometimes you will be too tired for it to even sound appealing, but force yourself to leave, even if you drive around the corner and then nap or read in the backseat, lol. It will pay off. 

 

From the rest, afternoon daycare is my favorite, because she will get practice socializing without academic or other expectations. Many kids in my area go to daycare when school is done, the school's program cannot accommodate everyone. I think they send a van to the school to pick them up. 

 

You might also consider a summer camp instead of the summer school. If your dd doesn't have aggressive behaviors, they might agree to put her in a lower age group. This would increase her chances of social success, and there would be fewer expectations of sitting still and so forth. 

 

Reading alone in the backseat of a car sounds so nice, haha. I've thought about summer camps, although we tried last year (a 3 hour nature program for 2 weeks) and even that limited time was an utter failure, she was running away and hiding, telling them she needed the bathroom 20 times a day just so she could leave, not following rules, etc. She's changed a lot since last summer though, and maybe being with younger kids would make sense. I never even thought of daycare, thought it was only for preschool age and younger. Something to look into, to see what might be available, thank you.

[PeterPan]

Just making some random notes here in reply to yours.

 

You are concerned she'd be mentally exhausted, but you think the academics will be too easy?  Which means the exhaustion is from trying to conform for *behavior* which means she needs more *supports*...

 

You mention her preferring her father.  One, that's common.  Two, you require her to do things that are hard or non-preferred.  It seems like her *academics* are not a problem with you, only the behavior, yes?  So if you had behavioral supports (medication, bringing in a behaviorist, whatever), then you'd improve that.  Our behaviorist tells ds she wants him to help him make better choices so he can enjoy working with his mom.  He finds it frustrating, but it's HIM and HIS issues.  So she's saying let's remove the barrier that makes you THINK you don't enjoy working with her, because when the behavior improves he'll realize he DOES.

 

Ok, let's read between the lines on the IEP schedule.  They just told you they won't do an IEP until she has been observed.  So you either have to have her in enough other situations (church, outside classes, at home, whatever) that she can be observed, or you enroll her.  And one of the suggestions we had was that you consider enrolling her NOW, because it's K5 and the most flexible.  They're using the IEP timeline (wait 30 days for the first meeting, blah blah) to punt.  You could walk her in today and enroll her, bam, done.  What I *wouldn't* do is allow them to say oh bring her in for just one day.  That doesn't get you over the honeymoon period to show what would really happen.  It would be novel and not reflective of long-term.  But a grading period, a month, something longer would do.  You could enroll her this week and get that going.  

 

Look at your state dept of ed website and get their IEP timeline.  That way you can know the stages.  They won't actually say she gets an IEP or 504 at that meeting.  What they're actually doing is deciding whether there is enough evidence to decide to eval.  They can say there's not even enough evidence and that they must observe first.  It's really just how helpful they decide to be.  But look at the timeline so you are informed on the terms and what is actually going to happen.  There will be forms, legal forms that you sign or are given at each step.  You want to know what those are.  Those early forms are HIGH STAKES!  They decide what gets eval'd.  

 

Either you're confused or I am, but I think they're giving you the pat on the head.  You're walking in saying she's so anxious she needs an aide and special services, and they're like hello we don't do ANY of that without evals.  They aren't going to just give her an aide just because you said so.  That's for kids who have IEPs.  

 

She has to go into school and she has to fail.  You have to ALLOW her to fail in school.  Then, when she has the problems, then they say yes we will eval.  Then they eval and go through the legal timeline process and make an IEP.  And you can say she's special and it needs to be expedited, but really EVERYBODY'S kid is special.  They have lots of kids to service.

 

If you enroll her now, it's a K5 class, which will be as kind and congenial as it can be.  You put her in, they watch.  If she does well you go to Starbucks and everyone is happy.  If she struggles, then they will watch for a while, give a little support in the normal level, and eventually say yes she needs evals.  But you HAVE to let her fail and have those struggles so they have the EVIDENCE they need to determine the need for evals.  You can't short circuit the process.  You have to let them SEE the problems, kwim?  You're saying oh if she has problems I'll pull her out.  You want their help or don't you?  If you want them to help, you have to let her go in, JUST LIKE ANY KID, struggle, JUST LIKE ANY KID, and then receive evals and help, JUST LIKE ANY KID.  

 

*I* would put her in for this last month and a half of the K5.  It's plenty of time for them to see the need, and the school team will be there through June, meaning you could get an IEP largely done.  That way you'd have answers by fall on what you're doing.  If you wait, she's going into a class that isnt' reflective of what it would be like in the fall and making judgments.  It's just not ideal.  Besides, why should a girl who is gifted have her summer suck?  Put her in swim lessons and let her swim every day, my lands.  Is school really THAT important that she needs to ruin her summer over it??  She's 6.  Let her swim and play at the park and take gymnastics and run and skip and dance.  

 

On the meds, well that's something you should talk over with your doctor.  You might find that a combo of meds AND interventions would make a lot of sense.  The school might have a lot of help for you.  What you could do is enroll her now in their K5 while you're waiting for those ped or p-doc appts.

 

Sorry, but daycare is not appropriate for this.  She's gifted and she's school age.  You'd be asking a low wage worker to do something more appropriately handled by a therapist or professional.  I do not put my ds in situations where I cannot guarantee, with reasonable certainty, that he can have appropriate behavior with the level of structure the situation is able to provide.  I do not expect untrained people to do therapy level instruction.  It just doesn't make sense.

 

Back to parent preferences.  I'm finding the things the behaviorist is having us do are shifting that dynamic.  For instance, we're now using motivators.  When I'm handing out frequent rewards/motivators, suddenly working with me (even at non-preferred) is just as fun as being with Daddy.  It's just that being there, having appropriate behavior, self-regulating, etc. is SO hard that he couldn't see that.  So yes we're using motivators, but it's working to improve that dynamic.  It CAN improve.  It can improve AND let you still be firm enough to get instructional control.  

Edited April 18, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

I don't think it is true she has to go into school and fail in school.

 

Plenty of places do look at evals and put things in place for when kids start.

 

I also have to say... my son went to a summer ESY for 3 hours a day for one month, for two summers, and he had a nice time. It didn't ruin his summer in any way. He had snack. They read him stories. He went to recess. It was not like OMG TORTURE.

 

It was not very different from other group activities that kids might do in summer, where they have some activities they do.

 

They did not have any field trips and did not go swimming. But, I picked him up at 11:30, and the pools we go to don't even open until 1:00 p.m.

 

In my town the city pools have swimming lessons in the morning, but there is another pool that does have evening swimming lessons in my town. But in effect ---- for us, choosing to do the ESY did mean my son wouldn't do swim lessons that month. But he would not have been able to do their round-robin style swim lessons anyway (where kids move around to different stations). It would not have been ideal for him at all, so it is not like I didn't have him do swim lessons that he would have been able to do.

 

Now, that was pre-school ESY, and not elementary school.

 

But you can ask what the elementary school ESY is like. It might seem like it is fun times. Or it might seem like it is much more "let's get caught up on academics."

 

If it is "let's get caught up on academics" then I do doubt you would want that.

 

But my son is going to an ESY program this June and it is not "let's get caught up on academics," so they are not all set up that way. Some are, some aren't. (And there is more than one ESY program in my town.... my son's will have field trips b/c they call them "community outings" or something, lol.)

 

Anna's Mom, I think for the summer thing ----- ask if they have hired the teacher for the classroom she would be in. Maybe they have, maybe not. Is that teacher currently teaching in the school district. If so, can you go and see that teacher's classroom? Or, if not that, can you see the classroom where the ESY will be held?

 

You can tell a lot from doing that.

 

I think you might get a sense of "yes" or "no" just from doing that.

 

Also ask what the ratio is.

 

But for things like this, it depends a lot on the teacher and what they are doing in the class.

 

For the ones my son has been to, I can see some people visiting and just feeling like "we don't need this." For other people, we might visit and feel like "this is nice." It just depends on the child, the teacher, and what other options are available.

 

My son needs fewer transitions and honestly even with a ton of supports, right now, I just don't feel I can put him in a day camp that will have a different schedule every day, lots of free time, lots of times that kids are together in a school gym or cafeteria (divided into groups, but still with ambient noise) ----- and it is just not realistic for this summer.

 

But his ESY is like -- it is to give the same kind of experience, for social reasons (etc.), but it is designed to have fewer transitions and smaller groups, and some things like that.

 

But there are other ESY programs that are like ---- kids go in for 2 hours, and they are trying to make it fun and engaging, but it is really just focused on academics and getting kids caught up in reading and math.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Lecka

[eternalsummer]

In my experience (limited to 2 schools, a regular suburban PS and a Waldorf methods public charter), yes, that is normal.  Not only would you have to medicate her to keep her in line (both for her sake, so she doesn't constantly fail - this is how they will put it to you - and for the other kids' sake, so she doesn't interrupt their learning), the likelihood is that 2-3 other kids in the class are already medicated.  This means her behavior, which was relatively abnormal in a classroom with 2-3 other nonmedicated ADHD-type kids, is now *really* abnormal and something teachers are not, in my experience (again, limited) able or willing to handle.  

 

I would not medicate a child (and did not, when it was suggested to me) just so that they could "succeed" at sitting still and doing remedial schoolwork for 5+ hours a day.  

 

The Waldorf school wouldn't have been any better, btw - as a philosophy, they don't believe in accelerating kids (they don't encourage or really allow reading until 7+, for instance) and everything is done as a whole class, peacefully.  They do the same phoneme stuff, just in a sing-song voice instead and while everyone paints the same red circle with watercolors.

 

I have an unmedicated ADHD-type (no diagnosis, nor would we ever get one, but teachers always want us to do so) 7 year old (almost 8) whom I homeschool for those reasons.  I am extremely introverted too, and it drives me crazy.  What helps us is A. he has a lot of siblings with whom to interact and B. I restrict actual one-on-one schooling to what I can stand for the day, and send him outside or around the neighborhood a lot.  It is better as he gets older.

[Lecka]

Are there any group activities that you have found to be easy for him to participate in?

 

I am looking for ideas for my son, too.

 

A lot of activities do not seem like they are realistic right now, but maybe they really are.

 

I am sending my 7-year-old to 2-night church camp this year, an hour away, but I may go get him at night instead of having him spend the night. I talked to the director, and the ratio will be 1:4 or 1:5, and he said they have had kids do well in past years.

 

But for 7-year-olds in general, at activities, the ratio is usually 1:10 and that is just a much larger ratio.

 

I do hear that some kids do well in sports, but I think there is a lot of following directions involved, and I worry a bit about that.

 

Anyway ---- at a certain point, I have picked ESY options, partly from not seeing other options where I think my son would do well.

 

Anna's Mom ------ thinking about it, if you have another option besides ESY, for a fun activity for her, or a little day camp, then that might be what you would rather do.

 

But if you are looking and seeing (like I do) ---- oh, it is younger people with no kids, and they just go around to kids saying "do you want to sit out?" when they do not behave, and they leave a lot of free time for kids to play, ------- these are things where I think we are better off with ESY for now.

 

I looked at Facebook pages for some day camps in my town from last year (half-day and full-day, etc.) and they looked nice, but not like things where I would think my son would do well.

 

Things that are really nice for other kids, are not always nice for him, b/c he does need more guidance and structure, and summer is about creativity and free time in so many day camp programs. Which is great -- but not if my son would not do well with that set up.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Lecka

[Kanin]

It's a very long and involved process (that uses lawyers), but if a public school is unable to accommodate your child the way you need them to, the public school needs to pay for her to attend a specialized school. You mentioned the school for kids with LDs. I work at a school like that, and about half of our kids are "district funded." I've heard it's a real hassle (sometimes) to get the district to pay for a private school, but sometimes it's surprisingly easy.

 

Just a thought - you could give her a try in public school and if it's obvious that it's not working out, you can try and get the district to pay for the LD school.  

 

Good luck!

[eternalsummer]

We have found that recreational sports (not try-out type ones, but things like Parks and Rec leagues) have been good on the whole - for my son, for the most part, they are interesting enough, the groups are small enough relative to adult supervision, and there's enough running around and tolerance for a kid who won't stand still in the outfield.  I think a big big part of it is that they last 1-2 hours at most.  He is not the best behaved kid there, but 

A. he can keep it together for 1-2 hours while he's also doing something interesting (not remedial schoolwork, like learning phonemes when he's been reading at a 4th grade level for a year)

B.  There is a lot of tolerance for physical and to some degree verbal movement/expression, compared to a classroom

C. It is a male-dominated environment.  Many of his natural ways of interacting, which are masculine (physical regulation, directness, etc.) are validated, and it is for him more relaxing/affirming to be validated than to constantly feel like his natural behavior is out of place or "wrong"

D. He likes the structure and order of it and responds well to it, partially I think because it's a constructive purpose - he has to do what the coach (who usually has a natural authority that many of his teachers have lacked) says because he is part of a team that is trying to win something.  It feels serious and real to him, while sitting still so other kids can learn to add 2+1 for the 5th day in a row does not feel serious or important to him.

 

There is also a cottage school program here through most of the local districts - we are trying one next year.  It's a full day one day a week for homeschoolers, but it's focused on extracurricular or enrichment-type things (legos, science experiments, making videos, etc.) so I am hoping he won't be as bored as with traditional academics.  They also have 3 recesses and 2 snack periods plus lunch built into the day, so while there is regular structure (which he does like), there's a fair amount of time where he doesn't have to be "on." 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by ananemone

[Lecka]

Thanks, that is good to know. 

[Terabith]

I'm someone who did put my kids in school, so fair warning. I thought my youngest was going to crash and burn. That's what I expected. She is highly gifted with tons of LD, ADD, severe anxiety, crunchy social. She was crawling under the table at tutoring. But finally, my husband said, "Look. This is ridiculous. You have tried everything you can think of. Put her in school for a semester and SEE WHAT HAPPENS! It's a socially normative thing to try. If she crashes, pull her out. But just see what happens."

 

I could not fathom it working. But, you know what? She is THRIVING! It's not perfect, but it's pushed her out of her comfort zone in a gentle enough way. Lots of kids are weird. She's weirder than most, but she passes. Academics aren't ideal, but she isn't crying all the time, either. She's learned to just get it done sometimes. She has had some great teachers.

 

So I ask, what's the worst that could happen? Stick her in without an aid. You want to know how she does baseline. I would put her in for the rest of the year and then evaluate.

[kbutton]

I'm someone who did put my kids in school, so fair warning. I thought my youngest was going to crash and burn. That's what I expected. She is highly gifted with tons of LD, ADD, severe anxiety, crunchy social. She was crawling under the table at tutoring. But finally, my husband said, "Look. This is ridiculous. You have tried everything you can think of. Put her in school for a semester and SEE WHAT HAPPENS! It's a socially normative thing to try. If she crashes, pull her out. But just see what happens."

 

I could not fathom it working. But, you know what? She is THRIVING! It's not perfect, but it's pushed her out of her comfort zone in a gentle enough way. Lots of kids are weird. She's weirder than most, but she passes. Academics aren't ideal, but she isn't crying all the time, either. She's learned to just get it done sometimes. She has had some great teachers.

 

So I ask, what's the worst that could happen? Stick her in without an aid. You want to know how she does baseline. I would put her in for the rest of the year and then evaluate.

 

I think this is very reasonable. If her behavior is reasonable, there is also a chance that they would do some single-subject acceleration at some point, It's not uncommon in the early grades to have reading and math groups where they work more according to ability (even if they spend some time doing whole-class chanting of sounds and things). As they age, the higher groups of kids may be enriched in the regular classroom, sent out, or single-subject accelerated. Reading acceleration is very common. Math acceleration is slowly becoming more common. 

 

If behavior continues to be a problem, then you have data to form a plan. 

[kbutton]

Oh, and if she does pretty well in school, but it's not perfect, I would definitely find out what your options are--I wouldn't pull for a moderately uncomfortable fit that isn't making her feel bad about herself. if you have options since you know you are going nuts at home. I was going nuts with my kid at school because it was a private school that would not really flex on the parts that were causing us the most trouble, which involved homework--it darn near killed us to get him to do homework he didn't need to do while also having to help him here and there with something he didn't know how to do that bothered him but didn't bother the teachers. If something else had been the problem, we might have made things work just fine. Something might not be ideal, but if behavior is better, then try to tackle what you don't like about the school. 

 

 

[mb4]

What about only sending her half day?  At my local public school they reserve morning for Math and Reading in the younger grades, and then they do "specials" in the afternoon which is a rotation of music, art, science, P.E. etc.  You could continue to do math and reading with her at home, at the 2nd grade level you mentioned she was on.  This would allow her to get one-on-one attention in these areas and avoid the part of the public school day that requires the most focus.  But, she could go in the afternoon and practice her behavioral and social skills in more structured setting with peers, and you would get a much needed break.  You could continue to follow rabbit trails with her when she gets home in the afternoon, or in the morning after you do reading and math.  I am considering a similar arrangement for my daughter next year, and the principle was completely on board with it.  I would guess many public schools try to get the hard stuff out of the way in the morning.  

 

 

[Mom28GreatKids]

What about only sending her half day?  At my local public school they reserve morning for Math and Reading in the younger grades, and then they do "specials" in the afternoon which is a rotation of music, art, science, P.E. etc.  You could continue to do math and reading with her at home, at the 2nd grade level you mentioned she was on.  This would allow her to get one-on-one attention in these areas and avoid the part of the public school day that requires the most focus.  But, she could go in the afternoon and practice her behavioral and social skills in more structured setting with peers, and you would get a much needed break.  You could continue to follow rabbit trails with her when she gets home in the afternoon, or in the morning after you do reading and math.  I am considering a similar arrangement for my daughter next year, and the principle was completely on board with it.  I would guess many public schools try to get the hard stuff out of the way in the morning.  

 

 

I was just talking with a mom at ds's therapy clinic who's child went to ps half days.  I was like, what, they allowed that?  I guess they did.  Now, she is pulling him out next year and homeschooling, but anyway.  I had never heard of a ps being flexible enough to allow that, so it might be worth it to ask the question.  I like what mb4 suggests for her to go in the afternoon when they are likely doing the less structured subjects anyway, which would give her a taste of school, during the time of day where you need a break.  It just might be worth a shot and give you the answers you need before next year.