When Structured WTM Classical Education doesn't work for your kid

[trobtch4liberty]

So I read WTM and have used it basically as my homeschooling bible since we started. It's working out well enough for my 16 year old (we can't do EVERYTHING because he works at a slower pace than most kids) but my 10 year old is struggling and I am struggling along with him. I'll say first, I'm not one of those homeschoolers that always wanted to be a teacher or is natural at teaching my kids. I'm the kind of person who learns a certain way and has a hard time understanding any different ways of learning.

 

So my 10 year old... I'm sure if he were in school they'd tell me he has ADHD. He has a short attention span and, frankly, he is lazy. Not just about school, he's lazy about everything, even playing. Always always the path of least (or NO) resistance with this kid and ZERO ambition. I understand that I cannot MAKE him ambitious or driven, but I'm not sure what to do otherwise. 

 

Right now, we're following mostly WTM 

 

Saxon 3 Math

Times Tales

Spelling Workout

Classical Academic Press Latin (We were doing Memoria Press but he and I both couldn't stand the teacher)

Memoria Press Grammar

I went from Elemental Science's Classical Program to the Living Books program

WTM Writing with Ease 3

Story Of the World 2

50 States program from Memoria Press

PreScripts writing and drawing book from Classical Conversations

 

So I try to keep things structured and sit down with him for the ones I need to (like math and my husband does history with him) and I expect him to do the rest on his own (and ask me for help when needed). For instance, the Latin has a DVD and a CD, plus workbook activity book etc. I make up a schedule for him to follow each week, so he KNOWS what he has to do. But it seems like, if I'm not constantly on him, he just doesn't do what he's supposed to, and I get busy with my other kids (3 and 16) and he gets behind in everything because he's not doing what he's supposed to.

 

Also, when I sit down with him to do writing or language, sometimes he's super cooperative and sometimes I can tell he doesn't want to so he acts stupid on purpose and I end up getting frustrated and it's just a mess. Believe me, I know I am part of the problem on that one, but I just don't know what to do with him when he acts dense and witless just to get out of doing something. I feel like I can't let him get away with acting like that. We have tried rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior, NOTHING works.

 

I feel like maybe there is something better out there for him. I honestly cannot spend 8 hours a day holding his hand through every subject (and, if I don't, he doesn't do what he is supposed to). I think he's one of those kids that wants everything to be fun and I am torn between educating him in that way if it works for him (even though I have no idea how to go about that) and teaching him that not everything in life is fun and instilling some discipline. 

 

It's helpful to note that 1. He started homeschool in the middle of second grade. and 2. I am divorced and he sees his father every other weekend. There are no rules there (I tried treating his "ADHD" and some dental issues he was having with diet and my ex flat out refused to follow it) and that entire family is constantly bashing homeshool.

 

Any ideas of maybe a gentler curriculum? Any other advice? Thanks for listening.

[Kiara.I]

Um, well...

I think your expectations may not be quite in line with what's possible.

 

I have a 9-year-old.  I cannot imagine asking a 10-year-old to work mostly independently.  And my 9-year-old does not seem to have ADHD-like tendencies.

 

I think that if your 10-year-old needs more supervision, that is normal and expected. Part of the problem you're experiencing may be that he just cannot work as independently as you want him to at this age.

Of course, if school takes 8 hours a day of focused work, it also sounds like there's too much.  I'm not familiar with some of the programs you're using, so I don't know what would be reasonable for their completion, but 8 hours a day of focused work is beyond what is expected for a 10-year-old.  If you go on the "one hour per grade" it should be at 4 hours a day.

[Storygirl]

I can sympathize. I really wanted to try the WTM way of homeschooling, and I started out using many (but not all) of the materials  book recommends. Over the years, we really changed things, based on what was working and not working for my children, and I ended up being much more eclectic in my approach than I originally expected.

 

Things were hard for a very long time. We had struggles with all four of my children, in various ways. I felt I was failing at homeschooling and at parenting, because things were not going very well. I had a hard time getting my kids to cooperate, and then when they did concentrate on their work, it was often extremely hard for them to get through the material and retain information. We had bad attitudes. We had arguing. One of my kids in particular would seem to pretend not to understand things in order to frustrate me. For example, he would often stick to repeating wrong answers over and over, even after I had spent a lot of time leading him through thinking about the problem correctly, or would just repeat, "I don't know!" I couldn't tell if he was not listening to me, was not understanding the concepts or directions, or just being willful. It was horrible. I would try to push through it, and we would often both end up in tears.

 

It turns out that at least two of my children have significant learning disabilities (we are still having a third one evaluated). And, yes, we have ADHD here, as well. No wonder things were so hard! We got to such a bad point here that we have transitioned out of homeschooling and have put three of them in school (the fourth is enrolling in the fall). That doesn't have to be your solution, but I'm sharing that to demonstrate that things were bad enough here that we had to make drastic changes.

 

So you have my sympathy. And my best advice is to talk to your doctor. If you assume that your child is willful or lazy, they will receive that message from you, and it will affect both his view of himself and his relationship with you. Don't get me wrong. I do believe that children can be willful and that they can be lazy. We have character issues going on in my house, as well as learning issues. But the best way for you to sort this out is to figure out what is at the root.

 

* If it is ADHD, there are things that can help (including meds, but there are many other things to try as well).

 

* If there are learning disabilities that you haven't identified yet, you can learn how to best remediate or accommodate for the problems and how to modify the material so that it is accessible. Don't assume that it is not an learning disability. You can't tell until you do testing. The public school is required by federal law to test for free if there are suspected disabilities (yes, even for homeschoolers).

 

* Make sure to test his hearing and his vision. Not just with the little screening tests they do at the pediatricians office, but by going to an eye doctor and perhaps an audiologist. Hearing loss and vision problems can go undetected but cause havoc with learning.

 

* Change any curriculum that is not working. Ditch it and start over with a new plan. You don't have to follow the WTM way. You don't have to do Latin at all, for example (we did it with oldest but not with the younger). If there is a particular program that you are using that is not succeeding for him, research other options.

 

* When he is working independently, what is he doing? If he has to do a lot of writing in his independent work, and writing is hard for him, it's natural for him to feel resistant to that. Is he sitting right near you, so that you can constantly redirect him to his work? Or is he sitting nearby but is distracted by hearing you talking to his siblings and would do better in a quiet room, away from the group?

 

* Be sure to focus on your relationship with him first and school second. This is maybe the most important piece of advice I have to give you, because it was the hardest thing for me. Spend time with him when you are not doing school work. Play a game together or go for a walk. Make sure he knows that you value him as a person, separate from how he is as a student.

 

I really do think that you will learn a lot of you have some testing done. The testing for ADHD is simple, so you might as well find out for sure. Talk to the pediatrician. Also consider doing some other testing to make sure that he is understanding all the directions you are giving him (it is possible to hear but not understand) -- start with vision and hearing and move on from there if you still have concerns.

 

:grouphug:

[Storygirl]

I re-read your post, and I'm adding that it would probably help to add some fun things into your day. I know that it will be hard for you as the teacher (I struggle with that, too). But at his age he can have a balance of fun educational things and things that are more challenging for him. He can learn something by building a Lego project or doing Snap Circuits or working a maze, crossword puzzle, or dot-to-dot (they have some very complex dot-to-dots that my kids enjoyed). Pick one subject that he can learn by watching a video (my kids loved Bill Nye the Science Guy) and don't require extra work or output. Drop extra academics. Out of your list, I might drop Latin and pick either SOTW or the 50 State study. I'd probably drop SOTW, unless that is something that you do with your whole family or unless it is something that he enjoys, because he will go over that same history again in future years, but the state study may be unique to this year.

 

Is he reading for fun? I would make sure he has some daily reading. You can have him read The Magic Tree House Fact Finders books that cover various periods of history and call it good. Yes, it is probably below his reading level. But they are fun and factual and easy to read, and, to be honest, unless he can absorb great amounts of information (such as is in SOTW), he will probably retain more history from them.

 

Switch it up.

 

And yes, an 8 hour day is too long for him, unless he is having breaks while you work with his siblings. I also understand how hard it is to meet all the various needs of multiple children (I have four!), so you are juggling a lot.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Storygirl

[trobtch4liberty]

Storygirl, thank you so so much for sharing your story with me. I'm glad to see that you were able to send your kids to private schools. I could not bring myself to send my kids back to public school and unfortunately, we just can't afford private (although I think a good, rigorous catholic school might be just the ticket to get his butt in gear HAHA!). I really do think private school would be the best solution for my 10 year old, because of the personality conflicts between him and I.

 

I actually did have both his hearing and vision tested, because I used to have to repeat myself every single time I told him something. Turns out, he just said "what?" automatically every time someone said something to him. Talk about AGGRAVATING!

 

I want to clarify, I was being hyperbolic when I said 8 hours a day. However, I do want to make sure I get in "all the subjects" so to speak. I guess that's another thing I struggle with. I want to make sure he's doing and learning everything he's "supposed to", I have a hard time letting go of that. I hear bout these unschooling families and these other types of laissez faire types of homeschooling and they sound so great but I am so afraid my kids will not learn what they need to learn. I know that Latin is not required, but he actually does pretty well with that one and I know it's really good for him to do, so I don't want to take away this early opportunity for him.

 

As far as working independently, I DO think he should be able to work on his own to some degree. I believe there are failing standards in this country, even globally, in regards to what is expected of children and of people in general. Is there any wonder we are seeing a bunch of adults that never grow up, can't hold a job and do nothing but party and chase "the next best thing"? While I would like to find something that works BETTER for my child, I also do not want to lower standards or expectations for him, I don't want him to think someone will always be there to hold his hand and do the work for him. I also have 2 other children of significantly different ages that need my time and attention (and when I am with them is when I expect him to do his work on his own).

 

I think another thing I've lost sight of is what a typical day should even be like... really, I'd love to see a book written about 30 or 50 different families that homeschool and what goes into their typical day.

Edited April 12, 2016 by trobtch4liberty

[trobtch4liberty]

He actually does read quite a bit. I finally got him reading Harry Potter (I LOVE HP  :coolgleamA: ), he reads the Tree House books, we also do the Life of Fred math books (I just don't feel these are ENOUGH math to constitute leaving him do these and nothing else), he's also been reading the simplified versions of the Classics that you can get at target for $1 and other versions of classics that I've gotten him. We also get a lot of library books based on the recommendations in SOTW and his science curriculum.

 

Now that I type it all out, I worry less, because he certainly does read and do a lot. I think sometimes without the writing and the worksheets, I feel like I have no measure of what he's done and what he's learned. According to the State tests he took last year (which I put NO stock in) he's reading at an 8th grade level but he was doing math at a 2nd grade level (he was at the end of 3rd grade at the time). I don't know really, I guess I am just stuck in public education think where everything has to be measured and accounted for and reported on. Maybe easing up on him a bit will make him more willing. I mean, do I really NEED to give him a Latin test every week or is it just enough that he's being exposed to it?

[Carol in Cal.]

 

I think another thing I've lost sight of is what a typical day should even be like... really, I'd love to see a book written about 30 or 50 different families that homeschool and what goes into their typical day.

Here you go:  http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Patchwork-Days-Share-Families/dp/0965130304

[hornblower]

On the issue of independent work, I think your expectations are unrealistic & I think *wanting* him to be independent is a good goal but just expecting it to happen is obviously not working. You will need to scaffold this and honestly I think it will mean you sitting teaching, explaining, giving him time to do an exercise and then 5 minutes later checking in, and checking in again and then teaching some more. Homeschooling shouldn't consist of a parent just buying texts & putting out a schedule - not at this age. 

I think too many parents expect young kids to just self teach. In a class environment there is a lecture, an activity, a chance to work independently, then another activity and then perhaps some homework - which frequently is done with a parent hovering. That's what I'd think of as normal. 


Have you seen the video of Susan Wise Bauer doing dictation with her 13yo? I keep referring people to it because I think it really opens people's eyes to the reality of how schooling some kids & some subjects looks. 

[trobtch4liberty]

Here you go:  http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Patchwork-Days-Share-Families/dp/0965130304

 

 

I LOVE YOU!!!

[itsheresomewhere]

He may not be "lazy". Has he been tested for learning disabilities? They can often be mistaken for laziness.

[Carol in Cal.]

Looking over your list, just so you know, Saxon is about a year behind CA state standards, so Saxon 3 is a 2nd grade text more or less.  That might run you into problems with your state testing fairly consistently.

 

Personally, if you want to make homeschooling more fun, I would suggest taking the load off of the school year by schooling lightly through the summer, spreading some of the intensity out that way. Another advantage of this is that then you can skip some of the review lessons early in your school books. Saxon, for instance, has several weeks of review right at the beginning of each book, and if you continue with Saxon continuously, you won't need all of that review because he won't forget his math over the summer, so you will get through the material a lot faster.

 

Also, if this is a very active kid, look for field trip opportunities every week or two, for refreshment and broadening.

 

I hear you about the Latin.  I remember at one point deciding that Rod and Staff was way too in depth in some things and didn't cover complex sentences nearly enough. I thought DD didn't like it, but it turned out that she loved it--it made her feel very competent. So we continued with it after all, which was fairly counterintuitive at that point.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[trobtch4liberty]

On the issue of independent work, I think your expectations are unrealistic & I think *wanting* him to be independent is a good goal but just expecting it to happen is obviously not working. You will need to scaffold this and honestly I think it will mean you sitting teaching, explaining, giving him time to do an exercise and then 5 minutes later checking in, and checking in again and then teaching some more. Homeschooling shouldn't consist of a parent just buying texts & putting out a schedule - not at this age. 

 

I think too many parents expect young kids to just self teach. In a class environment there is a lecture, an activity, a chance to work independently, then another activity and then perhaps some homework - which frequently is done with a parent hovering. That's what I'd think of as normal. 

 

 

Have you seen the video of Susan Wise Bauer doing dictation with her 13yo? I keep referring people to it because I think it really opens people's eyes to the reality of how schooling some kids & some subjects looks. 

 

 

The thing is, when he is inclined to do so, he DOES work independently just fine. I could understand if he was NEVER able to do it and if he was truly struggling versus just not wanting to do the work and take the easy way out (yes, I have verified that is the case). And I have to say, I think you misunderstand my position. It's not like I NEVER sit down with him to do work, but, as I stated before, I have 2 other children, I can't sit with him the entire school day (especially since I have a high schooler and a toddler to deal with). Plenty of the stuff that we do REQUIRES me to do it with him. Other stuff doesn't (like Latin, I just don't have the time to sit and watch the Latin DVD with him, and I feel it would be redundant to do so).

 

On a better note, I have noticed that changing to a less dry and irritating Latin (from Latina Christiana to Classical Academic Press Latin) program has done wonders for him.

 

That's really what I am looking for, suggestions for curriculum or even other ways of learning that will keep him more engaged and make it less of a struggle. I really liked Storygirl's idea of science videos and other books and stuff. I guess I always felt like just letting them off with watching videos instead of doing "science work" was kind of cheating.

[Jean in Newcastle]

On the issue of independent work, I think your expectations are unrealistic & I think *wanting* him to be independent is a good goal but just expecting it to happen is obviously not working. You will need to scaffold this and honestly I think it will mean you sitting teaching, explaining, giving him time to do an exercise and then 5 minutes later checking in, and checking in again and then teaching some more. Homeschooling shouldn't consist of a parent just buying texts & putting out a schedule - not at this age. 

 

I think too many parents expect young kids to just self teach. In a class environment there is a lecture, an activity, a chance to work independently, then another activity and then perhaps some homework - which frequently is done with a parent hovering. That's what I'd think of as normal. 

 

 

Have you seen the video of Susan Wise Bauer doing dictation with her 13yo? I keep referring people to it because I think it really opens people's eyes to the reality of how schooling some kids & some subjects looks. 

 

I liked this post and then I had to quote it to say again how much I like it.  OP, I had to learn to "teach the child I have".  My child with ADD genuinely needed more scaffolding.  It was not coddling him to provide what he needed. 

[trobtch4liberty]

Looking over your list, just so you know, Saxon is about a year behind CA state standards, so Saxon 3 is a 2nd grade text more or less.  That might run you into problems with your state testing fairly consistently.

 

Personally, if you want to make homeschooling more fun, I would suggest taking the load off of the school year by schooling lightly through the summer, spreading some of the intensity out that way. Another advantage of this is that then you can skip some of the review lessons early in your school books. Saxon, for instance, has several weeks of review right at the beginning of each book, and if you continue with Saxon continuously, you won't need all of that review because he won't forget his math over the summer, so you will get through the material a lot faster.

 

Also, if this is a very active kid, look for field trip opportunities every week or two, for refreshment and broadening.

 

I hear you about the Latin.  I remember at one point deciding that Rod and Staff was way too in depth in some things and didn't cover complex sentences nearly enough. I thought DD didn't like it, but it turned out that she loved it--it made her feel very competent. So we continued with it after all, which was fairly counterintuitive at that point.

 

I didn't know that about Saxon! We are actually a year behind in Saxon (we're doing book 3, he is technically in 4th grade). So I guess he's doing ok then. And I actually did do exactly what you said because we were behind, when we went to Saxon 3, I skipped the first 1/3 of the book because it was all review. 

 

We do go through the summer, more I think because we do frequent breaks throughout the year and because I constantly feel like I am catching them both up from public school (my kids are smart but they work slower and they're the typical kids left behind in the public school model).

 

I like the field trip idea. We're members of the zoo here and the aviary. I think I'll also get a membership to the Carnegie Science Center this year. Now that the weather is warmer, we'll be getting out more (and then I'll get stressed because my teenager missed a day of work haha). 

 

I just don't understand how people do it - between having each kid in a sport, music lessons and homeschool subjects, plus all the groups and stuff they belong to, how do they get ANYTHING done???

[Peaceful Isle]

I have to keep on my almost ten year old for every subject. My girls are older and do well with their schooling, but my son needs me for almost every single subject still. And some poking, prodding, threatening, raising my voice...and he finally gets done for the day.

 

Some things that have helped me with him, is that I have included some online school work for him. Khan academy is great for him to learn math. You earn points, change your character, and it actually works for him. Essentials in Writing also works, because I'm not the one teaching him.

We use Story of the World for his history. He reads it to himself, and does the activity pages and tests by himself. No prodding there.

He also loves science mechanical type of experiments. We subscribe to Tinker crate, and he does it all by himself.

 

Maybe you could try to find what he is motivated with or loves, and let him grow in those areas. On the side, plug along with the the basics.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Peacefulisle

[Critterfixer]

Not cheating to use videos for history and/or science at all. 

 

[trobtch4liberty]

I wonder too... Is there some resource to guide me through what we have to do? Again, I loved WTM, but it's just WAY too much, at least for this one particular child. Like, what does he need to know by the end of 4th grade in math and what "writing" does he NEED to learn? I mean, I know there's not one right answer for every kid, but I think MOST of my stress comes from thinking they won't lean everything they need to (I struggle with my highschooler here).

 

I also want to say how envious I am of parents who can naturally just teach their children, enjoy it and make it fun. It doesn't come naturally to me (I went from being a full time career woman to crunchy mom extraordinaire in a very short period of time!)

[Kiara.I]

I wonder too... Is there some resource to guide me through what we have to do? Again, I loved WTM, but it's just WAY too much, at least for this one particular child. Like, what does he need to know by the end of 4th grade in math and what "writing" does he NEED to learn? I mean, I know there's not one right answer for every kid, but I think MOST of my stress comes from thinking they won't lean everything they need to (I struggle with my highschooler here).

 

I also want to say how envious I am of parents who can naturally just teach their children, enjoy it and make it fun. It doesn't come naturally to me (I went from being a full time career woman to crunchy mom extraordinaire in a very short period of time!)

 

There might be some guidelines.  Your province/state/country might have expected guidelines for each grade.  If you make sure you're hitting those, then you know he's getting an education at least comparable to his local peers.

 

Some people seem to like the "What your Xth grader needs to know" books.  I've never looked at one, no idea. But they exist, so that's another option for a list of "have to learn."

[Storygirl]

So if he tested at the second grade level in math and is doing Saxon 3 in fourth grade, he is actually about two years behind in math. That suggests a possible math disability. Is he behind for a particular reason and working hard to catch up, or is he working at his ability level because math is hard for him?

 

My son has a diagnosed math disability. He also has ADHD. Managing the ADHD better has made a big difference in his ability to progress in math (though it has not removed the disability).

 

Have you looked at CLE for math? We have multiple learning problems here, and we found it was the program that worked the best. It is designed to be done mostly independently by the student. Once you start using Saxon 5/4 you run into the additional difficulty of the student having to rewrite all of the problems on his paper before doing them. With CLE, the student writes directly into the workbook, which often works better for kids who struggle with math.

[TriciaT]

I don't have a kid this age, so feel free to disregard everything I have to say.

 

I do have a daughter with a very relaxed and kind of easily distracted temperament. It is quite normal for me to need to remind her to move on to the next math problem after she does one on the worksheet. It can get kind of exhausting! I have a friend whose child is exactly like this as well- also the second born. I think second kids tend to be phlegmatic temperaments and that can really make a check list kind of mom crazy.

 

You might want to consider reading a book or two about child temperaments. It has helped me be much more patient with my sweet little middle child.

 

If you want to try out other curriculum, what about some Brave Writer for your language arts? Maybe phonetic zoo for spelling? (If he might be able to stay on task better with an audio component.). Your curric choices so seem kind of language heavy, would he like a bit more hands on stuff? Maybe some stuff from timberdoodle? (Just throwing some ideas out there🙂)

I hope you find a great rhythm and can find a way to do things that you and your ds will both love.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[trobtch4liberty]

He actually does fine in math. He's just behind because we're behind. He tested at a 2nd grade level in 3rd grade though. It was a year ago.

 

I'm not familiar with CLE...? I'm definitely going to be getting away from Saxon. My other son is doing the Algebra 1 book (yes, he is also behind, it's not that they're bad at math, but they are just slow workers) and I REALLY do not like it. They jump ALL over the place and I don't feel enough explanation is given for some of the concepts (particularly, WHY you do things a certain way). I've been looking at Teaching Textbooks and wonder if they are worth it? They're pricey.

[trobtch4liberty]

 

You might want to consider reading a book or two about child temperaments. It has helped me be much more patient with my sweet little middle child.

 

 

 

 

I am totally a checklist person! When I managed Tech Support and Software QA, I used checklists for my employees. I never go to the store without a list. That's just me haha. Maybe to a fault.

 

Do you have any book recommendations? I read Dr. Sears' book on ADD, but it didn't really help me. I have my own opinions about ADD, the pharmaceutical industry and allopathic "medicine" in general, but that is a whole different discussion and I don't want my concerns to be disregarded because I refuse to put my child on medication. Like I said, I did try to use diet to treat him (having read that gluten specifically can exacerbate "symptoms of ADD"), the problem is that, every other weekend, he eats garbage (and I mean stuff I wouldn't even feed my dog) and there is absolutely NOTHING I can do about it (and I do notice that he is the worst after a weekend at his father's house).  

[2_girls_mommy]

No- you probably don't need to test in latin every week.  Test sometimes for test practice.  Do some quizzing orally a few times a week, but naturally throughout the day as you drive somewhere or something to follow up.  If he doesn't have it down, then you need to keep up the reviewing.  If I gave you the long list of things we use it looks like a WTM list too.  But we don't finish everything.  Somethings are done orally.  Some things are occasionally picked up, etc.  We have our core subjects that have to be done daily. 

[Kalmia]

Videos and outdoor nature study for science are fine at ten. I'd add in visiting science/natural history museums or zoos when possible. If you read autobiographies of scientists, you will see again and again that many credit being able to spend unstructured time in nature when they were children with their current success.

 

Here are two articles (you can find more if you search) explaining the benefits of time in nature for people with ADHD.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-wealth/201306/natures-rx-green-times-effects-adhd

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448497/

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Kalmia

[Kalmia]

You could also add living books to your science plan to round it out and keep it fun.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/397839-living-books-for-science/

[Storygirl]

He actually does fine in math. He's just behind because we're behind. He tested at a 2nd grade level in 3rd grade though. It was a year ago.

 

I'm not familiar with CLE...? I'm definitely going to be getting away from Saxon. My other son is doing the Algebra 1 book (yes, he is also behind, it's not that they're bad at math, but they are just slow workers) and I REALLY do not like it. They jump ALL over the place and I don't feel enough explanation is given for some of the concepts (particularly, WHY you do things a certain way). I've been looking at Teaching Textbooks and wonder if they are worth it? They're pricey.

 

The reason I said two years is that Saxon is thought to run a little behind. So many fourth graders are using Saxon 6/5 (third graders often use 5/4).

 

CLE, on the other hand, has a different scope and sequence, and in the elementary years is a little advanced for the grade level. They have great samples to look at on the webpage, as well as placement tests. CLE is set up differently, in that each year has 10 workbooks, called light units. So you can actually buy one or two light units and try out the program without making a pricey commitment to something that might not work.

 

If you decide to try them, use the placement tests, and don't be discouraged if they place a year behind what you think they will. That's common. Just start where they say to. If you decide to use them, search for CLE threads or start your own to get some feedback about ways that you might be able to move through it faster. CLE includes a lot of review, which is needed for some children, while others can skip ahead.

 

www.clp.org

 

You might think about doing math six days a week, doing math twice a day, or working through the summer to get caught up. And I wouldn't discount the idea of a math disability. There may be a reason your children are working slowly. The school can test that for you, for free.

 

ETA: When I use the word "behind," I am doing so without any judgment. It is just to describe how the program lines up with what is typical of other programs (TT tends to be behind grade level, as well, as you may already know). I have more than one child who is weak in math, myself. My own kids would not have been ready for Saxon 6/5 in fourth grade. The key is to meet them where they are, understand and work on the root difficulties, and progress as well as possible. Catching up to grade level is sometimes possible and sometimes not, depending on the individual.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Storygirl

[Carol in Cal.]

Regarding benchmarking, since your son is in 4th grade, you might look at "Teach Like Your Hair Is On Fire" and other books by Rafe Esquith.  He is a 5th grade teacher.  He pushes his kids pretty hard, so his stuff is high end for fifth grade, but it will give you an overview of what kids can be doing at that age.  I found it extremely helpful.

 

 

[TriciaT]

I am totally a checklist person! When I managed Tech Support and Software QA, I used checklists for my employees. I never go to the store without a list. That's just me haha. Maybe to a fault.

 

Do you have any book recommendations? I read Dr. Sears' book on ADD, but it didn't really help me. I have my own opinions about ADD, the pharmaceutical industry and allopathic "medicine" in general, but that is a whole different discussion and I don't want my concerns to be disregarded because I refuse to put my child on medication. Like I said, I did try to use diet to treat him (having read that gluten specifically can exacerbate "symptoms of ADD"), the problem is that, every other weekend, he eats garbage (and I mean stuff I wouldn't even feed my dog) and there is absolutely NOTHING I can do about it (and I do notice that he is the worst after a weekend at his father's house).

I don't have good book recommendations for you. The only one I have read was published in South Africa, and it isn't even available on Amazon.[emoji52] Just look up child temperaments on Amazon and go into you library with a list of titles. Maybe I can find some good articles to post tomorrow.

 

I also had a thought when you described the situation with going to dad's house.. Of course diet can have an impact on behavior, but so can feeling unsettled. Transitions can be tough, especially for a phlegmatic kid. Maybe it isn't even about the transitions, but about feeling busier on those weekends and just having a hard time getting going on Monday morning.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Critterfixer]

I've simply found it helpful to use TWTM as a guide and go pirate when I need to. :001_smile: It's easier than trying to read through a bunch of books.

When I need to change things up I start by figuring out what is working and how much time it is taking to work. Saxon works, sort of. But it takes too long for the trouble. Enter CLE which works for me.

I got tired of juggling spelling, grammar and composition and I wanted to add in some structured literature analysis for writing. Didn't have time to dink with a bunch of things, so I modified CW Homer and kept a very basic grammar from Harvey and picked up a free diagramming resource to use once a week. Solved the time and juggling bit.

Decided that history bores me too much to make it the "thing." Backed it off to twice a week, picked a spine and books for extra reading, just as they look interesting on the library shelves.

Science is okay, but let's just face facts. I am not going to put together an experiment every week and write up a lab report on it at this point in time. And nature study here involves a good soak in bug spray before you attempt it. So I picked a spine and additional reading on the topics, and we love us some science videos. I load up at the library every few weeks.

 

None of that might work for you. Some of it might. But when it comes to changing, I try to take into account what I believe works for my kids and what I can do. And frankly, sometimes the second is more important, because I'm really willing to adapt what I like for somebody else to enjoy. That's my philosophy on changing things up. So before you go change a bunch of things, it is helpful to figure out what is most important to you in a curriculum. For me, it's adaptability and regular time taken for each lesson. For you it might be ability to be independently used by the student and clear directions. Everybody has what they need, want and can deal with, so now might be a good time to figure out for you and your child what is very important to you in your school curriculum.

 

On the independence aspect: what you want you have to model, teach, teach and overteach. It took a year of consistent work on my part to teach the boys to follow a schedule on the board. They now have their own lists for each day, and we've been doing that for a good month now. And they still ask me what they need to do. No big deal, but now I tell them to look at their list when they ask me. I'm still there, helping and working with them throughout the school day, and yes, keeping them on task when I need to. And it is still up to me to read their faces to find out when they need help but don't know how or when or where to ask for it. My guys are 12. They were nowhere near ready to deal with independence in schoolwork at 10. But they were ready to start learning. So now is a really good time to scaffold, teach what you want the child to be able to do on his own someday and show him how to do it.

 

Best of luck! You've already gotten some good feedback. I want to second wholeheartedly the "teach the child you have" comment. And remember that they change, grow and mature, and you are right at the point where a lot of that starts happening. It probably won't be overnight, and there are going to be major hurdles and bumps and new challenges. It's a tough time. Lots of patience required!

[vonbon]

Here you go:  http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Patchwork-Days-Share-Families/dp/0965130304

 

I was going to recommend the same book.  I thought it was a good one to read, even though our schedule might look quite a bit different than those described, if I recall correctly.  Ultimately, I didn't think it was worth purchasing or re-reading (I borrowed it from the library), but it was valuable for getting a glimpse of how others do things and helping me to create our own schedule.

[shinyhappypeople]

 I really liked Storygirl's idea of science videos and other books and stuff. I guess I always felt like just letting them off with watching videos instead of doing "science work" was kind of cheating.

 

The goal is learning, right?  So if he learns from the videos, how is that cheating? You're being an awesome mom :) by meeting him where he's at and figuring out the best way to teach him.

 

I am in love with Curiosity Stream.   Inside the Human Body is a favorite, also A Curious World (7 min long episodes that are sort of like a buffet of interesting history and science topics). 

 

You can also check out Brain Pop.

 

And, of course, youtube, Netflix and all the usual suspects.  There's a Homeschooling with Netflix group on facebook for suggestions for using videos in home education.

[Guest]

This is going to sound flip, but i promise i have btdt so hard and i dont mean this that way...

 

You need to read up on add. Get him tested or not, but you NEED to understand that for one thing adhd is a real thing and ppl that have it (and their families) need support. Saying "im sure hed be labeled...but hes lazy" is why i think you dont take the didorder seriously.

 

Meanwhile, YOU labeled him. As lazy. Lazy, unlike adhd, is a thing a (grown) person can control through habits and willpower. Therefore when one makes a choice not to control it, and are called lazy, it is a pointed insult.

 

Meanwhile, being insulted all their lived for being spacey, lazy and uninspiring is something that severely hinders ppl with add.

 

But, just for practical purposes....youre NEVER EVER EVER I PROMISE YOU going to convince a child, or and adult, with add to treat something as important "just because you saidvso." So, like, with latin...you have to convince him that it is truly, truly vital or hes never going to get on board. Unless he spontaneously takes it up as a hobby, in which case youd never be able to tear him away from it.

 

Again, trust i know...haved lived..your frustration, with both grown and child loved ones. The key is that you have to preserve your relationships above ALL else, and theres a steep learning curve there.

 

I mean, whats the alternative here? You just have a BAD kid? Do you think that? Or do you think his brain doesnt eork like yours, or your other kid's, and he needs help from you?

 

Eta link

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/10/18/9-surefire-strategies-that-dont-work-for-kids-with-adhd/

Edited April 12, 2016 by OKBud

[vonbon]

I think the series below, in addition to your state standards (mine are available in printed form), are a place to start with expectations by grade.

 

What you are saying about changing from a career to HS and wishing you were more of a natural, fun teacher for your kids really resonates with me.  I want to be homeschooling and there are a lot of high points, but it is very, very hard.  Much harder than any career/job I had elsewhere.  

 

I also like delineations in all things and find it helpful to have some sort of "guide" to at least have parameters or some idea of what would be expected at each age.  I tend to over-expect things from my children because I worry about some of the things you listed (work ethic, etc.) and I'm not personally super-familiar with the various ages and stages of human development.  It makes it hard to know if what I expect is reasonable, too little, or too much sometimes.

 

Someone upthread mentioned the "What My X-Grader Needs to Know" series by E.D. Hirsch: 

 

http://http://www.amazon.com/What-Third-Grader-Needs-Revised/dp/0385336268/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1460490556&sr=1-1&keywords=what+my+3rd+grader+needs+to+know

 

I use the books from the series each year and, while I think they're pretty good, a lot of the material just boils down to someone's opinion of what should be covered in any given grade.  I think they're good for Language Arts and Math and I'll probably continue to use them each summer as some sort of guide.  But beyond that--who's to say if your child should be learning about the Ancients or American History in any given grade?  Should they learn about soundwaves in 2nd grade or 5th?  I guess I use them as a general overview and to make sure we are not WAY off and missing the mark in some way.

 

Many homeschoolers have recommended the checklist-type World Book lists.  I love them and print them off each year.  Again, I don't follow them meticulously, but I use them as an overview at the beginning, middle, and end of each grade to see if we're on an approximate course that's appropriate for the grade/age.  Sometimes if I'm feeling really unsure about the course we're charting, I re-read them to see where we've progressed: 

 

http://www.worldbook.com/free-educational-resources/typical-course-of-study

 

I don't want to get too locked in to other people's opinions and lists, but these resources help me feel like I'm not shooting in the dark.  

[Reefgazer]

My 11 year old DS is very independent and capable, but...not at 9 he wasn't.  So I think your expectations may be a bit high there.  Why don't you start with English and math that he can cope with, and once that is established, add in some foreign language.  Then history, then....you get the idea.  He'll get used to certain expectations each day, and you will have a better idea of where his true limits are.

 

I do not agree that he has to be on board for everything - we parents are here to guide him to adulthood, and functional adulthood in the USA means math, English, etc..  My kids have to do that whether they want to or not; at 18 they can choose otherwise.

Edited April 12, 2016 by reefgazer

[Sherry in OH]

A weekly checklist is better suited to a high school student than a fourth grader.  The fourth grader is probably overwhelmed just looking at it.   If you must do checklists, give him daily or twice-daily checklists (am and pm).  Expect to need to remind him to stay on task.  10-year olds still need playtime.  Include am and pm recess in your checklist.

 

I find piling my 10-year old’s seatwork on the table to be more effective than a checklist.  I also put pencils, erasers, and any special resources needed to complete the assignments on the table.  That prevents him from getting sidetracked while searching for a compass or dictionary.

 

Look at the amount of writing you are expecting daily.  He is juggling a lot of workbooks.  Individually the lessons may seem short, but cumulatively it may be too much.  

 

I would drop 50 States and Times Tales.  50 States because the sample looks tedious. He could learn as much or more about the states by playing Stack the States. Times Tales is the sort of resource that either works or fails miserably. If he doesn’t get it, or doesn’t enjoy it, drop it.  There are many other ways to learning multiplication facts. 

 

Add some fun resources.  An occasional logic puzzle or dot-to-dot breaks the tedium.  Have him do some arts and crafts projects relating to his history topics.  There are tons of projects that could be done for the middle ages.   

[Targhee]

So I read WTM and have used it basically as my homeschooling bible since we started. It's working out well enough for my 16 year old (we can't do EVERYTHING because he works at a slower pace than most kids) but my 10 year old is struggling and I am struggling along with him. I'll say first, I'm not one of those homeschoolers that always wanted to be a teacher or is natural at teaching my kids. I'm the kind of person who learns a certain way and has a hard time understanding any different ways of learning.

 

So my 10 year old... I'm sure if he were in school they'd tell me he has ADHD. He has a short attention span and, frankly, he is lazy. Not just about school, he's lazy about everything, even playing. Always always the path of least (or NO) resistance with this kid and ZERO ambition. I understand that I cannot MAKE him ambitious or driven, but I'm not sure what to do otherwise.

 

Right now, we're following mostly WTM

 

Saxon 3 Math

Times Tales

Spelling Workout

Classical Academic Press Latin (We were doing Memoria Press but he and I both couldn't stand the teacher)

Memoria Press Grammar

I went from Elemental Science's Classical Program to the Living Books program

WTM Writing with Ease 3

Story Of the World 2

50 States program from Memoria Press

PreScripts writing and drawing book from Classical Conversations

 

So I try to keep things structured and sit down with him for the ones I need to (like math and my husband does history with him) and I expect him to do the rest on his own (and ask me for help when needed). For instance, the Latin has a DVD and a CD, plus workbook activity book etc. I make up a schedule for him to follow each week, so he KNOWS what he has to do. But it seems like, if I'm not constantly on him, he just doesn't do what he's supposed to, and I get busy with my other kids (3 and 16) and he gets behind in everything because he's not doing what he's supposed to.

 

Also, when I sit down with him to do writing or language, sometimes he's super cooperative and sometimes I can tell he doesn't want to so he acts stupid on purpose and I end up getting frustrated and it's just a mess. Believe me, I know I am part of the problem on that one, but I just don't know what to do with him when he acts dense and witless just to get out of doing something. I feel like I can't let him get away with acting like that. We have tried rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior, NOTHING works.

 

I feel like maybe there is something better out there for him. I honestly cannot spend 8 hours a day holding his hand through every subject (and, if I don't, he doesn't do what he is supposed to). I think he's one of those kids that wants everything to be fun and I am torn between educating him in that way if it works for him (even though I have no idea how to go about that) and teaching him that not everything in life is fun and instilling some discipline.

 

It's helpful to note that 1. He started homeschool in the middle of second grade. and 2. I am divorced and he sees his father every other weekend. There are no rules there (I tried treating his "ADHD" and some dental issues he was having with diet and my ex flat out refused to follow it) and that entire family is constantly bashing homeshool.

 

Any ideas of maybe a gentler curriculum? Any other advice? Thanks for listening.

I am sorry I ha end read all the posts, and I only have a moment, but I felt compelled to reply.

 

First, you have my empathy. That's why I felt I needed to reply - for years I felt like "either I'm doing a bad job, or this kid is willful/lazy/stubborn, or something else is wrong. And, since everyone near and dear says nothing else is wrong it must be me or him. And I'm busting my butt to do all I can, and things I do work for other siblings so it must be him." I often vacillated between "it's me" and "it's him" with their connected guilt on the one hand and frustration (at times anger and even dislike on the other). It is very unhealthy for me, for him, and for our whole family. It doesn't get us anywhere.

 

Second, I know that moving a spouse to be willing to look with different eyes is difficult and I can imagine there's extra nuance and difficulties in doing so with an ex, but ADHD isn't just some thing that affects school - the bigger, more significant effects are in personal relationships and necessary executive functions (soft skills) to be a successful adult. Difficulty with task initiation and sustained attention can look like unambitious laziness. You really need to get that evaluated, if for no other reason so that you can move on to what else might be an obstacle for your son. If dad is convinced there is no ADHD (as my DH was, because he was 'just like that as a kid' and he really wasn't around enough to see the struggles) then agree tell him you will gladly drop the issue if the evaluation says no ADHD.

 

Third, I also am one who had a hard time understanding other learning styles. If they'd just do what I said they'd be successful! At least, that is what I assumed. Learning about learning styles opened my eyes A LOT, and helped me better understand my kids, my DH, and all the differences. I highly recommend Cynthia Ulrich Tobias book The Way The Learn!

 

Fourth, you're spot-on that WTM does not work for everyone as written. I suggest you look closely into my second and third points before spending money on new curriculum. If in deed your DS has ADHD, medication and therapy is very helpful. But if your child is not a sequential, analytic (parts to whole), he still will have trouble with the curriculum and practices suggested in WTM. What we do may or may not be the thing for you, but it has helped my DC greatly (especially DS 11 who has ADHD, is not a sequential learner or parts-to-whole in his understanding at all). This is what DS's day is like:

 

He works from a weekly checklist, ~50-60% is completely independent from me.

 

We have non-negotiables in the morning - this is our Morning Basket, math, English language arts, and Latin. In the afternoon is Personal Study Time - this is where they work on things they have thought of and/or have committed to.

 

Morning Basket is my time to share what I think is important (scriptures, exposure to the humanities, etc), interesting (biographies, historical snippets, a YouTube video, etc), pressing (etiquette, social skills, family business, etc), and read aloud. We have tried to find curricula for math, ELA, and Latin that work with his learning style. For the most part we have, and things go pretty smooth, but I do have to refer him to his checklist frequently. Writing is a really hard subject for him (he's an amazing sentence writer, but he hates writing and organization is difficult for him) so this is where I have to work at elbow with him and be very patient.

 

Personal Study Time starts with a quarterly discussion, usually over lunch or ice cream, where we review the last quarter, talk about their interests big and small, and make some general plans and goals for the next quarter. Weekly we meet together and plan for the upcoming week, and they create their checklist. The checklist starts with my non-negotiables and then they add their personal study time. This degree of ownership in their education has made such a difference in their compliance in the non-negotiables as well as drive and ambition in personal study time. An example of a weekly checklist for DS 11 might look like this:

Morning Basket x4

Math x4

Sentence Analysis (grammar) x4

Writing x3

Logic Liftoff 2 pages X1 (we lump logic into ELA)

Recitation (memory work) x4

Latin x4

 

SOTW 3 x2 (he just listens to the audio and colors, sometimes he wants to do the map so I read the instructions)

Biology x3 (this is his homework for co-op class)

Make battle plan X1 (this is also for a co-op class)

Study Quizlet x2 (this is for Science Olympiad team)

 

He works until 2:30. If he has time remaining after what he has planned out he reads until 2:30.

 

Here I have rambled on. I'm sorry. I just felt so much empathy - I really wish you all the best!

[Targhee]

I can sympathize. I really wanted to try the WTM way of homeschooling, and I started out using many (but not all) of the materials book recommends. Over the years, we really changed things, based on what was working and not working for my children, and I ended up being much more eclectic in my approach than I originally expected.

 

Things were hard for a very long time. We had struggles with all four of my children, in various ways. I felt I was failing at homeschooling and at parenting, because things were not going very well. I had a hard time getting my kids to cooperate, and then when they did concentrate on their work, it was often extremely hard for them to get through the material and retain information. We had bad attitudes. We had arguing. One of my kids in particular would seem to pretend not to understand things in order to frustrate me. For example, he would often stick to repeating wrong answers over and over, even after I had spent a lot of time leading him through thinking about the problem correctly, or would just repeat, "I don't know!" I couldn't tell if he was not listening to me, was not understanding the concepts or directions, or just being willful. It was horrible. I would try to push through it, and we would often both end up in tears.

 

It turns out that at least two of my children have significant learning disabilities (we are still having a third one evaluated). And, yes, we have ADHD here, as well. No wonder things were so hard! We got to such a bad point here that we have transitioned out of homeschooling and have put three of them in school (the fourth is enrolling in the fall). That doesn't have to be your solution, but I'm sharing that to demonstrate that things were bad enough here that we had to make drastic changes.

 

So you have my sympathy. And my best advice is to talk to your doctor. If you assume that your child is willful or lazy, they will receive that message from you, and it will affect both his view of himself and his relationship with you. Don't get me wrong. I do believe that children can be willful and that they can be lazy. We have character issues going on in my house, as well as learning issues. But the best way for you to sort this out is to figure out what is at the root.

 

* If it is ADHD, there are things that can help (including meds, but there are many other things to try as well).

 

* If there are learning disabilities that you haven't identified yet, you can learn how to best remediate or accommodate for the problems and how to modify the material so that it is accessible. Don't assume that it is not an learning disability. You can't tell until you do testing. The public school is required by federal law to test for free if there are suspected disabilities (yes, even for homeschoolers).

 

* Make sure to test his hearing and his vision. Not just with the little screening tests they do at the pediatricians office, but by going to an eye doctor and perhaps an audiologist. Hearing loss and vision problems can go undetected but cause havoc with learning.

 

* Change any curriculum that is not working. Ditch it and start over with a new plan. You don't have to follow the WTM way. You don't have to do Latin at all, for example (we did it with oldest but not with the younger). If there is a particular program that you are using that is not succeeding for him, research other options.

 

* When he is working independently, what is he doing? If he has to do a lot of writing in his independent work, and writing is hard for him, it's natural for him to feel resistant to that. Is he sitting right near you, so that you can constantly redirect him to his work? Or is he sitting nearby but is distracted by hearing you talking to his siblings and would do better in a quiet room, away from the group?

 

* Be sure to focus on your relationship with him first and school second. This is maybe the most important piece of advice I have to give you, because it was the hardest thing for me. Spend time with him when you are not doing school work. Play a game together or go for a walk. Make sure he knows that you value him as a person, separate from how he is as a student.

 

I really do think that you will learn a lot of you have some testing done. The testing for ADHD is simple, so you might as well find out for sure. Talk to the pediatrician. Also consider doing some other testing to make sure that he is understanding all the directions you are giving him (it is possible to hear but not understand) -- start with vision and hearing and move on from there if you still have concerns.

 

:grouphug:

Yes, yes, yes!!! It is important, but after an exhausting day of reminders, head butting, feet dragging, and other conflicts it can be really hard. I have to tell myself, especially when my future-oriented mind starts extrapolating his entire adult life based on the bad day we had (this isn't a pretty future I project after he's grabbed something from his sister, gotten angry with me when I pointed out the page he missed on math, and justified a lie on a technicality or issue of semantics) - I have to remind myself that if that horrible future I've thought of comes true, he has to know he is loved and he can always come home.

 

But mostly they just need that unconditional love to be well-centered every day.

[Minerva]

Storygirl, thank you so so much for sharing your story with me. I'm glad to see that you were able to send your kids to private schools. I could not bring myself to send my kids back to public school and unfortunately, we just can't afford private (although I think a good, rigorous catholic school might be just the ticket to get his butt in gear HAHA!). I really do think private school would be the best solution for my 10 year old, because of the personality conflicts between him and I.

 

I actually did have both his hearing and vision tested, because I used to have to repeat myself every single time I told him something. Turns out, he just said "what?" automatically every time someone said something to him. Talk about AGGRAVATING!

 

I want to clarify, I was being hyperbolic when I said 8 hours a day. However, I do want to make sure I get in "all the subjects" so to speak. I guess that's another thing I struggle with. I want to make sure he's doing and learning everything he's "supposed to", I have a hard time letting go of that. I hear bout these unschooling families and these other types of laissez faire types of homeschooling and they sound so great but I am so afraid my kids will not learn what they need to learn. I know that Latin is not required, but he actually does pretty well with that one and I know it's really good for him to do, so I don't want to take away this early opportunity for him.

 

As far as working independently, I DO think he should be able to work on his own to some degree. I believe there are failing standards in this country, even globally, in regards to what is expected of children and of people in general. Is there any wonder we are seeing a bunch of adults that never grow up, can't hold a job and do nothing but party and chase "the next best thing"? While I would like to find something that works BETTER for my child, I also do not want to lower standards or expectations for him, I don't want him to think someone will always be there to hold his hand and do the work for him. I also have 2 other children of significantly different ages that need my time and attention (and when I am with them is when I expect him to do his work on his own).

 

I think another thing I've lost sight of is what a typical day should even be like... really, I'd love to see a book written about 30 or 50 different families that homeschool and what goes into their typical day.

 

You have gotten some great help above, but I just wanted to point out that the bolded above is a very classic ADHD symptom. It can also be a symptom of an auditory processing disorder. What you are finding aggravating and frustrating might be a red flag for something you can get great help for, both in understanding your child's learning style and in resources. Ask me how I know.

[Reefgazer]

I agree with this; everything would run much more smoothly if you simplified and there were not so many moving parts.  This was a lesson I had to learn, and since I am somewhat thick in the skull, took far longer than it should have.  My DS, at 11, works off a combination of daily checklist and his planner (the planner set up weekly in order to see his weekly task load, and the daily checklist because...11 year old boy).  Eventually (8th grade for DD), I move to weekly planner only.

A weekly checklist is better suited to a high school student than a fourth grader.  The fourth grader is probably overwhelmed just looking at it.   If you must do checklists, give him daily or twice-daily checklists (am and pm).  Expect to need to remind him to stay on task.  10-year olds still need playtime.  Include am and pm recess in your checklist.

 

I find piling my 10-year old’s seatwork on the table to be more effective than a checklist.  I also put pencils, erasers, and any special resources needed to complete the assignments on the table.  That prevents him from getting sidetracked while searching for a compass or dictionary.

 

Look at the amount of writing you are expecting daily.  He is juggling a lot of workbooks.  Individually the lessons may seem short, but cumulatively it may be too much.  

 

I would drop 50 States and Times Tales.  50 States because the sample looks tedious. He could learn as much or more about the states by playing Stack the States. Times Tales is the sort of resource that either works or fails miserably. If he doesn’t get it, or doesn’t enjoy it, drop it.  There are many other ways to learning multiplication facts. 

 

Add some fun resources.  An occasional logic puzzle or dot-to-dot breaks the tedium.  Have him do some arts and crafts projects relating to his history topics.  There are tons of projects that could be done for the middle ages.   

 

[sbgrace]

This thread is long and I really need to get to bed. So forgive me if I'm way behind and saying useless stuff.

 

But, generally, ADHD may look different than you think it does. For example, many ADHD kids, when motivated, can often buckle down and get things done. But they can't do it consistently. They really can't.

 

My son can start things consistently now that he's on medication. Everything is easier for him. Some things, particularly more independent work, are possible for him that just weren't possible day in and out before.

 

CLE math has worked really well here, and would be above grade level at each grade (so don't be discouraged by placement tests). It may be more tolerable for him. If you try it you would try the second, not first light unit of whatever level he placed in (so 302, not 301) because the first unit is just review for kids out of school for a summer and different than all the other units. If you decide to try and it works for him, you can get advice for accelerating it to catch up. Whatever you use I would certainly stick with math through summer as it sounds like you do and consider Saturday math too. If you think it's just adhd and regular work that is causing the delay ok, but do keep your eyes open to disability. Academically, my son's math is the area that is most affected by his ADHD and most improved by medication.

 

I don't think, based on what you wrote, that he's capable of the kind of independence you wish he had. I don't think a lot of boys his age are, and certainly those with ADHD and related issues wouldn't generally be so he's not alone in that. You teach the kid you have.

 

You could consider CLE LA (grammar, general LA, even maybe your spelling if he doesn't have major spelling issues). If he's not yet able to be independent with it it won't take too much time to do with him together or orally, and I get more independence out of CLE than anything else. We use their reading (literature type thing) program too, but I have to hand hold a lot with that one and didn't use it as young as you are.

 

Is Latin important for you at this age/stage and/or a good use of his and your time?

 

I would hand hold a lot more, even if I had to drop stuff to do it, so he experiences success. I think, in the long and short run, this will be less frustrating for you and maybe less time consuming too.

 

Focus on building build positive relationship and interactions above all else (like 10 positive to 1 negative sort of ratio) if at all possible. His silliness is possibly either a. trying to delay avoid (normal at this age, even if infuriating) or b. getting attention. It's probably more a than b, but it might be a bit of both, because his silly probably does get a reaction out of you. It's possible that time spent on with positive interaction he enjoys on the front end before lessons or just regularly each day, will reduce that silly stuff and negative behavior generally on the back end. Try connecting before you start the lesson. Consider also that the material you're using isn't a good fit. Videos and documentaries are ok for science and history at this age in my opinion. I'd strongly consider that if resistance is coming in those materials. You want him to enjoy those subjects.

 

Finally, consider a short term medication trial just to see if it helps. My son takes short acting (3-4 hour) Ritalin. It really does help in ways I didn't expect, and things I thought he could control if he just wanted to are, I see now, things he needed help to manage. I really think you may think he can do more than he really can based om my experience.

 

 

 

 

 

[sbgrace]

Double post

Edited April 13, 2016 by sbgrace

[PagesandFields]

Have you asked him what he wants to do for school? I am no expert, but I have known a LOT of people who were very much like your description of your son... They were almost all very smart, very creative people...

 

It sounds like you are trying very hard, and I can completely relate to frustrations at having a kiddo who is not self-motivated to get those studies done... Especially if you are, and your older child was...

 

I have a bit of a different perspective... I am back on these boards part,y because I realized that the Waldorf/unschoolish things I dreamed of doing with my kiddos in elementary were NOT working for my son... So I understand how challenging it can be when what you think is the best education for your kiddo ends up not working at all!

 

To be honest? You sound so tired of it too that it seems like you both need a break from school entirely and do something special together where you can enjoy each other... Could you surprise him with a day or two break and a trip to do something he really loves? Maybe if you can get him to partner WITH you to find ways of learning and doing school that he would enjoy more it won't feel like such a battle?

 

I tutored 18yo LD kids for years... Some kids just need more one on one attention... But most were also VEry sensitive to feeling like a failure, or feeling stupid, which completely stalled their learning...

I know it is all easier said then done...

Hugs and good luck!

I have been to this website before... I haven't been in a while so can't vouch for how good it is... But this might help..

https://www.understood.org/en/friends-feelings/empowering-your-child/self-esteem/the-importance-of-self-esteem-for-kids-with-learning-and-attention-issues

Edited April 13, 2016 by PagesandFields

[PagesandFields]

I am border line type A and very self motivated... Nobody else in my family is... If you read up on unschooling, different learning styles, project based learning, and other things it might help you breathe a bit and distance yourself from the model of education you have used thus far... classical education is great for some, but it is absolutely NOT the only way to educate...

 

Some of the most amazing people I have EVER known were similar to what you have described. Often for many of them when they discovered the things that lit them up in life, inspired them, and they were given freedom and ownership over, they worked harder than anyone else, were more focused and disciplined than anyone else, and excelled...

 

I have a background and education in Sp Needs and LD... Without that I wouldn't understand my own son... If he has any real issues to address understanding the challenges of the way his brain and body work can be pivotal to helping him... And even if there are no diagnosable issues, people have VERY different learning styles...

As an example... I worked with 2 separate students who were failing comp 101... We started outlining their essays in 3d using pipe cleaners... One ended up getting a B after that, one I think a c...

Edited April 13, 2016 by PagesandFields

[FO4UR]

So I read WTM and have used it basically as my homeschooling bible since we started. It's working out well enough for my 16 year old (we can't do EVERYTHING because he works at a slower pace than most kids) but my 10 year old is struggling and I am struggling along with him. I'll say first, I'm not one of those homeschoolers that always wanted to be a teacher or is natural at teaching my kids. I'm the kind of person who learns a certain way and has a hard time understanding any different ways of learning.

 

So my 10 year old... I'm sure if he were in school they'd tell me he has ADHD. He has a short attention span and, frankly, he is lazy. Not just about school, he's lazy about everything, even playing. Always always the path of least (or NO) resistance with this kid and ZERO ambition. I understand that I cannot MAKE him ambitious or driven, but I'm not sure what to do otherwise. 

 

Right now, we're following mostly WTM 

 

Saxon 3 Math

Times Tales

Spelling Workout

Classical Academic Press Latin (We were doing Memoria Press but he and I both couldn't stand the teacher)

Memoria Press Grammar

I went from Elemental Science's Classical Program to the Living Books program

WTM Writing with Ease 3

Story Of the World 2

50 States program from Memoria Press

PreScripts writing and drawing book from Classical Conversations

 

So I try to keep things structured and sit down with him for the ones I need to (like math and my husband does history with him) and I expect him to do the rest on his own (and ask me for help when needed). For instance, the Latin has a DVD and a CD, plus workbook activity book etc. I make up a schedule for him to follow each week, so he KNOWS what he has to do. But it seems like, if I'm not constantly on him, he just doesn't do what he's supposed to, and I get busy with my other kids (3 and 16) and he gets behind in everything because he's not doing what he's supposed to.

 

Also, when I sit down with him to do writing or language, sometimes he's super cooperative and sometimes I can tell he doesn't want to so he acts stupid on purpose and I end up getting frustrated and it's just a mess. Believe me, I know I am part of the problem on that one, but I just don't know what to do with him when he acts dense and witless just to get out of doing something. I feel like I can't let him get away with acting like that. We have tried rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior, NOTHING works.

 

I feel like maybe there is something better out there for him. I honestly cannot spend 8 hours a day holding his hand through every subject (and, if I don't, he doesn't do what he is supposed to). I think he's one of those kids that wants everything to be fun and I am torn between educating him in that way if it works for him (even though I have no idea how to go about that) and teaching him that not everything in life is fun and instilling some discipline. 

 

It's helpful to note that 1. He started homeschool in the middle of second grade. and 2. I am divorced and he sees his father every other weekend. There are no rules there (I tried treating his "ADHD" and some dental issues he was having with diet and my ex flat out refused to follow it) and that entire family is constantly bashing homeshool.

 

Any ideas of maybe a gentler curriculum? Any other advice? Thanks for listening.

 

 

The bolded is the real issue.  :grouphug:   You are dealing with a child in trauma/conflict.  (Get a shark of a lawyer if you can at all afford one.)

 

 

He needs his school to be something he CAN accomplish daily.  He needs successes.  Even if his school is not your very best ideal, and even if he doesn't score in the 99th percentile.  His school = His success.

 

The feeling that you are failing and floundering is horrible, but for a child already going through an unfriendly divorce, it's brutal...and yes, the divorce and sabatoge every other weekend creates this dynamic.  You cannot stop the sabatoge.  You can only change your reactions.  You can only encourage your child to change his.

 

Understand, when his familiy members bash homeschooling, he might feel that as them looking down upon him as stupid.  When you give him work that is too diffucult, it confirms the idea that he must be stupid.  Lazy is better than stupid.  It is emotionally safer for him to not try than to fail.  This is where you CAN make some big changes. 

 

"I don't care if you don't get this right the first time, just see what you think."  and "When I was a kid, it took me 3 months to learn this. I remember how that made me feel, so I think we should break this down and not worry if it doesn't come like the book says it should."  and "Failing on the first try is no biggie. That's how we learn. How many times did Thomas Jefferson fail at making the lightbulb?  (Thomas EDDISON, mom!)" 

 

Create a safe place to fail.

 

Read a ton of biographies about strong men who failed and got back up again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder too... Is there some resource to guide me through what we have to do? Again, I loved WTM, but it's just WAY too much, at least for this one particular child. Like, what does he need to know by the end of 4th grade in math and what "writing" does he NEED to learn? I mean, I know there's not one right answer for every kid, but I think MOST of my stress comes from thinking they won't lean everything they need to (I struggle with my highschooler here).

 

I also want to say how envious I am of parents who can naturally just teach their children, enjoy it and make it fun. It doesn't come naturally to me (I went from being a full time career woman to crunchy mom extraordinaire in a very short period of time!)

 

Now, you are on to a key piece of fixing things...

 

Whittle his work down to reading reading reading.  Read to him, use audiobooks, buddy read, and assign him reading.  Choose books for those purposes.

 

Read to him: Books that have potential to be loved, talked about for years, and spark inspiration.

 

Audiobooks:  Books that are way above his reading level, but high interest.

 

Buddy read:  Books that are just a tad above his comfy reading level, and important for his education.  He might not choose these books, but you feel they are important.

 

Assigned Reading:  Books well within his reading level. Assign short chapters, and ask for an oral report. "Try to tell me everything you just read.  Pretend I really need to know, but the book was just flushed down the potty and now my life depends upon knowing what you just read."

 

 

 

Writing:  Do an oral report (aka narration) daily, even if it's just a short one.  Keep doing copywork.  Combine all handwriting, spelling, grammar in your copywork.  Have him study the passage.  Then see if he can orally spell a few of the words.  Pick out a few for asking things like "Where did the silent 'e' go?" and "Why did we double that consonant?"  After he copies, ask him to identify the verb, then the subject...and then let the discussion evolve into a 5min grammar lesson.

 

 

If you do daily oral narrations, and daily copywork as described above, that is enough writing for a 10yo in his situation. (In MY humble opinion, and especially b/c I think this is a temporary deal with his "laziness." (aka emotional distress)) 

 

Do Mad Libs together.

 

Write your own Mad Libs together. 

 

Pick a passage, and ask "If the author were a kindergartener, how would this have been written?"  (It was hot. I was mad. I hate the beach.)  Now, write a "kindergarten rant"  (make it realistic - c'mon - imagine a 5yo who is afraid to use a public restroom or doesn't want to take a nap)...and now put adult words around those same ideas.  Do this activity orally if actual writing is an issue.  But, scribe for him and have him copy some original writing in his own handwriting to keep for a portfolio of work.

 

If you can get him laughing during these assignments, you have won.

 

Math:  Whittle down to review & new.  I like the Evan Moore Daily Math reviews.  Choose a grade level down b/c we want to keep that review a quick 5-10min.  Then spend the rest of math doing together.  Watch a khan academy video and work some word problems together. Start with easy.  He needs to see some daily successes.

 

 

 

 

But more importantly, think about ways to build up a healthy culture in your home.  Be a safe place to fail, and a safe place to enjoy things that others tsk and poo about.  You have taken a hard knock too...being open about that idea and allowing the kids to see you build yourself up will encourage them to do the same. :grouphug:

[SilverMoon]

On 4/12/2016 at 7:50 AM, trobtch4liberty said:

 

 

Edited May 16 by SilverMoon

[TracyP]

I think a math disability is very possible. It also sounds like you already suspect ADHD. If you want to explore these possibilities more I would recommend The Mislabeled Child. I would also recommend an evaluation, but you could start with this book if you aren't ready to take that step yet.

 

I concur with the CLE recommendation, especially since Saxon has a reputation of insanely long lessons as the child gets older.

 

Also, when I sit down with him to do writing or language, sometimes he's super cooperative and sometimes I can tell he doesn't want to so he acts stupid on purpose and I end up getting frustrated and it's just a mess. Believe me, I know I am part of the problem on that one, but I just don't know what to do with him when he acts dense and witless just to get out of doing something. I feel like I can't let him get away with acting like that. We have tried rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior, NOTHING works.

 

 

My ten year old does this too. :) If I know the day is getting long, I ask him if he needs something - 10 minutes to run outside? Maybe a snack? If I know he is just being difficult, I make a cup of tea, grab a book or my tablet, and tell him, "Whenever you're ready." I got this idea from another boardie and we had a couple looong days. However, my ds comes around very quickly now.

 

Lastly, I wonder if you could get some "buy in" from your son. I sat down with my son and showed him what the state required me to teach. I then asked for his input. We went through subject by subject discussing what I needed, what he wanted, and how to find middle ground on the two. This made a huge difference. He felt some ownership and he now has subjects that he is excited to do. This has made a huge difference in my son.

 

I hope something in there helps. Not having the support of his bio dad makes the situation even more difficult. It sounds like his step-dad is supportive, though, and that is great. Best wishes to your family!

[ondreeuh]

ADD isn't just about focusing - it's sooooo much more than that. My 3 kids with ADD/ADHD are all significantly impacted in multiple ways: academically of course, but also behaviorally and psychologically. Treating the ADHD medically is a huge priority for me. One of my kids was late to get a dx and already had some self-image issues, and this kid hasn't been able to take meds in a couple of years. In that time, life has been SO much harder for the kid and it really is like adding a disability.

 

The disorganized brain of a person with ADD/ADHD should be understood and appreciated, not just ignored because it is hard to quantify. From my experience, the risks of not treating it are far worse than the risks of treating (and any side effects are apparent pretty quickly anyway).

 

 

[FO4UR]

ADD isn't just about focusing - it's sooooo much more than that. My 3 kids with ADD/ADHD are all significantly impacted in multiple ways: academically of course, but also behaviorally and psychologically. Treating the ADHD medically is a huge priority for me. One of my kids was late to get a dx and already had some self-image issues, and this kid hasn't been able to take meds in a couple of years. In that time, life has been SO much harder for the kid and it really is like adding a disability.

 

The disorganized brain of a person with ADD/ADHD should be understood and appreciated, not just ignored because it is hard to quantify. From my experience, the risks of not treating it are far worse than the risks of treating (and any side effects are apparent pretty quickly anyway).

 

The trauma of an unfriendly divorce could present like ADHD.  If that is the case, typical treatment for ADHD could be more of a hindrance than a help.

[SilverMoon]

The trauma of an unfriendly divorce could present like ADHD. If that is the case, typical treatment for ADHD could be more of a hindrance than a help.

I agree with you, but the OP sounds like this behavior has always been. We have made the same path of least resistance puns many times in this house, from birth! I mean, when my milk would let down DS would stop suckling and just swallow occasionally, until the flow slowed down enough he had to make an attempt again...lol.

Edited April 13, 2016 by SilverMoon

[FO4UR]

I agree with you, but the OP sounds like this behavior has always been. We have made the same path of least resistance puns many times in this house, from birth! I mean, when my milk would let down DS would stop suckling and just swallow occasionally, until the flow slowed down enough he had to make an attempt again...lol.

 

:lol: Now, that is dedication to efficiency.

 

 

The dynamics that caused the divorce were probably present the child's entire childhood.  I'm not saying to ignore the adhd symptoms, just view them in the whole picture.  Anxiety in kids can look like a lack of impulse control, inability to focus, etc...and if you treat anxiety like adhd (without looking at the source of the anxiety), the child could be worse off.