Teen Boy Comment About Sexism

[goldberry]

DD was talking to a friend (boy 17 about to be 18) regarding a certain unnamed political candidate and his attitude towards women.  Boy said, "He's not a sexist, because a sexist would believe that women shouldn't drive cars or have jobs, stuff like that.  He doesn't believe that."

 

Whaaaaa....? 

 

This is a someone I would (normally) consider a pretty smart kid.  Well educated (at least in other aspects).  Normal family environment, not especially stereotypical.  How the heck does that happen??

 

Needless to say, DD was not especially pleased with the conversation...

[Ravin]

Boy needs to learn a lesson.  :banghead:

[goldberry]

 All the misogynists live in Saudi...

 

Like someone saying, "I'm not sexist, I let my wife work, don't I?"      :glare:

[Guest]

Kids say dumb sh**. It doesn't mean much.

[goldberry]

Yeah, when my kid says dumb stuff, I usually realized I missed a topic somewhere (like geography :glare: ).  That comment revealed a disturbing lack of understanding from someone who is otherwise well educated.

[Mimm]

Kids say dumb sh**. It doesn't mean much.

 

But if those attitudes aren't corrected, it can become a problem.

[Guest]

 

 

Kids who say dumb sh** betray a lack of knowledge on the topic. IMO.

 

Right, which is why we usually make a big deal about teaching them. They don't start out knowing all the things.

[FaithManor]

I have a 17 year old serious feminist advocate teen boy. He would like to re-educate the young man in question.

 

 

[goldberry]

I'd hope most 17 year old boys know that the definition of gender equality isn't "We let you drive cars and stuff." 

 

:lol:  Seriously!

[Guest]

I dunno. This thread is just to point out that there exists a teenage boy out in the world that appears to be uneducated about feminism? It's a bummer, but I remember being a teenage feminist girl, so it's hardly a surprise. Now I'm a grownup and most dudes I know are more enlightened that way. The demographics are otherwise similar, so I assume it's a maturity/age difference.

 

Plus I said so much dumb stuff when I was 18. Kids are dumb some times. So are adults, sometimes. People are dumb, sometimes.

[JanetC]

Don't assume that it's just the boy who needs this type of education.

 

My 15 y.o. DD will need to build a college list next school year and we've started talking about it. I was talking about women's colleges. Nope. If she goes to a place that "coddles women" she will become a "woman scientist" which (in her infuriatingly unshakable teenage convictions) is an inferior type of scientist.

 

Sigh. It's hard to be a mom of girls.

[Guest]

Don't assume that it's just the boy who needs this type of education.

 

My 15 y.o. DD will need to build a college list next school year and we've started talking about it. I was talking about women's colleges. Nope. If she goes to a place that "coddles women" she will become a "woman scientist" which (in her infuriatingly unshakable teenage convictions) is an inferior type of scientist.

 

Sigh. It's hard to be a mom of girls.

 

! Ha

 

Co-ed schools do not turn out women scientists.

[texasmama]

I had a very interesting discussion in my co-op English class about sexism brought on by a short story we read as a class.  ("A Jury of Her Peers", in case anyone is interested.)  One teen boy in particular was completely befuddled that I had could have experienced sexism in my lifetime.  It was difficult for him to see past his own experiences, which is not atypical of young people...or people in general really.  I did my best to provide information and personal experience to back up what I was saying, but young people can be very black and white.  The nuances develop later.  There are other things that contribute to black and white thinking (like ASD), but I think that for some people in a privileged class, ignorance is bliss.  They do not see what does not directly affect them.

[Lady Florida.]

My 18 yo boy would understand why that candidate is sexist, but then my 18 yo boy is very much against that candidate. Still, he has said other stupid things (not about sexism or racism) that I know are really just about his age and lack of wisdom rather than his views.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Lady Florida

[6packofun]

He is probably thinking in more black and white, simple terms.  I mean, most definitions talk about "gender discrimination" and prejudice against women based on their gender.  That jives with what he shared.  My kids recognize that a man who likes to have trophy wives and objectifies them is sexist even while he claims to love women.  Is he discriminating against women by having 3 wives? No, but it doesn't take much to see that it IS sexism, kwim?  This kid just hasn't had enough life experience or observed this sort of thing enough to recognize it. 

 

Basically, I think he's missing the 2nd part of the definition given in this relevant article (that we will not discuss too in-depth as it may delve into politics as well):  http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/28/opinions/obeidallah-trump-sexism/

[mom@shiloh]

Education is a slow and subtle thing.  I agree with pp who used the term "black and white" to describe teen thinking.  I've heard my kids repeat things that they've heard out of context as being absolute fact.  Kids do not always catch the nuances, and sometimes they miss the main point entirely and latch onto some tiny little bit.  I wouldn't assume that this boy is being sexist or that his family is.  He has just misunderstood the definition.  

[Daria]

I'd hope most 17 year old boys know that the definition of gender equality isn't "We let you drive cars and stuff."

Many adults in this country seem to think the definition of racial equality is "we let you be president and stuff", so I'm not that hopeful.

[Carrie12345]

  I wouldn't assume that this boy is being sexist or that his family is.  

 

I agree in not jumping to that conclusion.

However, I do think it demonstrates that nobody has bothered to teach this boy the realities of bigotry and discrimination, which leaves the door wide open to acting in bigoted, discriminatory ways.  Hopefully, someone will fill him in before he spends much more time in the dark.

[Bluegoat]

I would tend to chalk that up to lack of experience more than anything.  Also, a lot of teens tend to be a little lacking in complexities in their thinking - someone mentioned that they tend to be black and white, and that is a good description.  Most 17 year olds are becoming more sophisticated, but some are later bloomers and maybe boys more often than girls.

 

If its coming up in discussions that he is having, it sounds like he will have the opportunity to think about it.

 

Also - I am not sure that I would say there is more value in a teen that accepts whatever the socially acceptable view is among his social group.  That can easily be just another version of accepting whatever they hear around them.  It doesn't necessarily show more critical thinking.

[Mimm]

To be fair, my thinking at that age was pretty simple. *I* had never witnessed racism (yes I had) so racism wasn't much of a problem. Women could work in whatever field they wanted, so the battle for equality had been won. Ta-da!

 

What can I say, these things weren't talked about around me. The internet wasn't what it was today. I didn't come into contact with a wide variety of experiences and opinions. I grew up in a family where questioning and refining your beliefs based on new information was not encouraged. And I think that's a big deal. I think there are a lot of people who, when they encounter new information that runs counter to what they think, they dig in and refuse to listen, instead of considering how that might fit in with their general view of the situation.

 

[Deee]

DS15 made a comment about "feminazis" on International Women's Day. Its not a mistake he will be repeating......

[TranquilMind]

I dunno. This thread is just to point out that there exists a teenage boy out in the world that appears to be uneducated about feminism? It's a bummer, but I remember being a teenage feminist girl, so it's hardly a surprise. Now I'm a grownup and most dudes I know are more enlightened that way. The demographics are otherwise similar, so I assume it's a maturity/age difference.

 

Plus I said so much dumb stuff when I was 18. Kids are dumb some times. So are adults, sometimes. People are dumb, sometimes.

Yes, I would not want to be evaluated today on what I did or said at 17.

 

Even my kid who is around that age has noted that there are many changes of viewpoints and leaps in maturity even on a monthly basis.  We both see it. 

[EndOfOrdinary]

Toward the beginning of our relationship Dh said something about all of an racial minority being extremely "hot because they are exotic." When I called him out, he informed me it was not racist because it was a positive comment. Racism was only for negative stuff. He has a Masters degree from UGA (Athens). I was just shocked.

[Bluegoat]

Toward the beginning of our relationship Dh said something about all of an racial minority being extremely "hot because they are exotic." When I called him out, he informed me it was not racist because it was a positive comment. Racism was only for negative stuff. He has a Masters degree from UGA (Athens). I was just shocked.

 

You know, I think this gets into a fuzzy area, because sexual attraction is so irrational, and so closely related to physical appearance.  Some people are much more attracted to familiar looks, and some to looks that are as different as possible from what they see around them. 

 

Given that ethnicity tends to follow some general physical patterns, it isn't odd that people can be attracted to some particular variations.  There are people who are attracted to some pretty odd and specific physical characteristics that aren't associated with ethnicity too.  But most of us don't consider our feelings about, say, women with very small feet, to be some kind of prejudiced thing.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Bluegoat

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, my 14 year old son has some interesting ideas about sexism.  I'll spare everyone the details.  I chalk it up to him being young and inexperienced.  It's difficult to understand certain things if you have no reference point. 

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

You know, I think this gets into a fuzzy area, because sexual attraction is so irrational, and so closely related to physical appearance. Some people are much more attracted to familiar looks, and some to looks that are as different as possible from what they see around them.

 

Given that ethnicity tends to follow some general physical patterns, it isn't odd that people can be attracted to some particular variations. There are people who are attracted to some pretty odd and specific physical characteristics that aren't associated with ethnicity too. But most of us don't consider our feelings about, say, women with very small feet, to be some kind of prejudiced thing.

My issue is not if the idea of certain physical features were attractive. It was the idea that not only did ALL members of this race somehow possess them, but that no one else could either. It was also that the direct impliation was almost zoo-ish. It was not that these individuals were just hot, but "exotic." Somehow they were trophy-ish. They were a prize.

[Pam in CT]

re stereotypes only count as prejudice if they are negative:

 

Toward the beginning of our relationship Dh said something about all of an racial minority being extremely "hot because they are exotic." When I called him out, he informed me it was not racist because it was a positive comment. Racism was only for negative stuff. He has a Masters degree from UGA (Athens). I was just shocked.

 

 

This was largely the view of my basically well-intentioned family growing up.  Blacks are better athletes/more musical/better dancers, Asians are better at math/violin, women are more nurturing, gay men can sing better/have better design sense, etc -- so long as the stereotype was "positive," no problem.

 

We all got scope for growth.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My issue is not if the idea of certain physical features were attractive. It was the idea that not only did ALL members of this race somehow possess them, but that no one else could either. It was also that the direct impliation was almost zoo-ish. It was not that these individuals were just hot, but "exotic." Somehow they were trophy-ish. They were a prize.

 

I don't know if I'd take this as seriously though.  For example, is it as obnoxious to be attracted to tall people?  What's the difference really? 

[Murphy101]

I agree in not jumping to that conclusion.

However, I do think it demonstrates that nobody has bothered to teach this boy the realities of bigotry and discrimination, which leaves the door wide open to acting in bigoted, discriminatory ways. Hopefully, someone will fill him in before he spends much more time in the dark.

I wouldn't assume anything.

 

Teens are actually capable of having views that are very much not in line with what their parents or their education has tried to instill in them.

 

And also, we have seen on these boards MANY people express that in their social circles and even family circles, religion and politics are verboten topics. It's considered rude. So I'm not sure what is going on there wrt to formation of their children beyond good manners, but obviously those people still have opinions of their own.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Murphy101

[Bluegoat]

My issue is not if the idea of certain physical features were attractive. It was the idea that not only did ALL members of this race somehow possess them, but that no one else could either. It was also that the direct impliation was almost zoo-ish. It was not that these individuals were just hot, but "exotic." Somehow they were trophy-ish. They were a prize.

 

But what does exotic mean?  Essentially, different than oneself or what one usually sees..  It translates into sexual fascination for some people.  And some people do seem to really be attracted to very specific physical types, from ethnicities, to people with a particular disability, to, tall people or blonds.

 

The thing is, it is all very subjective, so it could be the case that for some particular person, pretty much all people of some group or characteristic are attractive, or enough so to make a generalization.  I would not tend to think, if someone said that another person was exotic, that they would expect that to be true objectively apart from context.

[hornblower]

if the kid is online & at all involved or following video games, general tech, pop culture etc, they'll be being exposed to tons of points on this. 

Gamergate, MRAs, PUAs ... all of this is is out there & frequently referenced.  Depending what forums they follow, which youtubers they watch, they're learning all kinds of stuff and some of the most virulent online misogyny is being perpetrated by teen boys. 

There have been several cases recently of female journalists or game developers etc being harassed online & going through the trouble of tracking their harassers and contacting their moms because it turned out these were minors spewing violent misogynist threats. 

All this to say, don't assume it's coming from the home - it might be coming from an interest or hobby & some of them are rife with misogyny. 

[Murphy101]

Ugh. Most of my kids are not allowed online at all and very limited when they are.

 

But we have discussed the whole gamergate thing.

 

My kids, make and female, were pretty shocked that so much of that insanity that is very clearly stalking and harassment to us is legal.

[Murphy101]

I think I have pretty high expectations of 17 year olds. Black and white thinking ? Isn't that for - idk - it's a flaw all of us can fall into, but seriously, the 17 year olds I know have no trouble understanding complex ideas around gender, race, discrimination, prejudice....

Idk. I see way more adults than my mind tells me should be possible who seem to have a problem with it.

 

I go back and forth between hoping they are very late bloomers and thinking humanity is screwed.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think I have pretty high expectations of 17 year olds. Black and white thinking ? Isn't that for - idk - it's a flaw all of us can fall into, but seriously, the 17 year olds I know have no trouble understanding complex ideas around gender, race, discrimination, prejudice....

 

No, but plenty of adults just flat out have different ideas about that stuff.  The 17 year old at least may have limited experience so I wouldn't assume they will always see things the same way.  I don't think his line of reasoning is the worst I've ever heard. 

 

And you can teach an old dog new tricks.  My dad was pretty sexist for as long as I can remember.  Maybe having only daughters changed him, but he has changed.  He no longer has stupid ideas about females. 

[Ausmumof3]

I know too many adults who think like this to be surprised.

[hornblower]

See I'm guessing he understands it (the definition of sexism) & rejects it. That's scarier but as I said, it's quite rampant in certain circles. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

The boy's comment wasn't a difference of opinion, it was flat out ignorant - he didn't understand the definition of sexism. 

 

I don't know any 17 year olds with that level of ignorance. 

 

Idk. Maybe the kid was joking. That's the only context I could imagine any 17 year old of my acquaintance saying that. 

 

I do live in a liberal bubble though, so there's that.

 

Although honestly I never talked sexism until I went to college.  Wasn't on my radar prior.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah, but that was a while ago, right ?

 

are you trying to emphasize I'm old?

 

:lol:

 

My point was/is the idea of sexism wasn't something I discussed on any sort of level until I was a college student.  And I was older than 17.  We didn't talk about it in high school.  In terms of my home life, my father was sexist and my mother was too.  Combination of them being very old fashioned and kinda dumb.

[hornblower]

The point I was making above is that youth today are far more exposed to & involved in this conversation, same as they are around issues of race.

Even if it wasn't an issue for some of us in our youth, it's youth that's involved in a lot of these discussions and many mra & pua members are youth. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

The point I was making above is that youth today are far more exposed to & involved in this conversation, same as they are around issues of race.

 

Even if it wasn't an issue for some of us in our youth, it's youth that's involved in a lot of these discussions and many mra & pua members are youth. 

 

Maybe they are.  My kid has asked me various questions.  He tends to get a lot of his information from the Internet though so....  This isn't something he is discussing in a school or anything like that.

 

I can't really comment too much on what youth today are exposed to.  I live somewhat in a bubble.

[Reefgazer]

Yeah, I see it in the same context as having a preference for blue eyes, or a tall mate, or a slender mate. Just another preference, which he Gould be allowed to freely voice.

 

But what does exotic mean? Essentially, different than oneself or what one usually sees.. It translates into sexual fascination for some people. And some people do seem to really be attracted to very specific physical types, from ethnicities, to people with a particular disability, to, tall people or blonds.

 

The thing is, it is all very subjective, so it could be the case that for some particular person, pretty much all people of some group or characteristic are attractive, or enough so to make a generalization. I would not tend to think, if someone said that another person was exotic, that they would expect that to be true objectively apart from context.

[Bluegoat]

The boy's comment wasn't a difference of opinion, it was flat out ignorant - he didn't understand the definition of sexism. 

 

I don't know any 17 year olds with that level of ignorance. 

 

Idk. Maybe the kid was joking. That's the only context I could imagine any 17 year old of my acquaintance saying that. 

 

I do live in a liberal bubble though, so there's that.

 

I wouldn't say that.  Some people are very concrete thinkers.  I find people like that tend not to notice more conceptual or systemic phenomena so easily.  They think what is real is what they can see and touch.  My friend, for example, has a son like that.  When he was a little boy, but old enough to understand that fiction was made up, he was shocked to find out his friend liked to invent his own superheroes - because they weren't real, like the real superheroes. 

 

Adults like this don't seem to really relate to ideas until they have seen or experienced them in some way themselves.  On the other hand, once they accept an idea like that is true, they also tend not to question it - they would consider someone doing so to be questioning the unquestionable.  They tend to be rules are rules kind of people, very linear thinkers.

 

And when they are 17, they really are limited in what they have seen and experienced, so - often very narrow thinking in many areas.

 

That being said - why is it better for a 17 year old to just accept the definition of sexism he is given?  There is something to be said for being skeptical and willing to disagree with what people tell you is true.  Especially with this kind of thing, there is always a real chance that people's views about how things are may be skewed by their own assumptions. 

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, I see it in the same context as having a preference for blue eyes, or a tall mate, or a slender mate. Just another preference, which he Gould be allowed to freely voice.

 

 

Yeah.  Mind you, people can get weird about this sort of thing, and even treat actual people more like catagories that persons.  Which rightly is objectionable to the people involved.

[Lady Florida.]

Well, my 14 year old son has some interesting ideas about sexism.  I'll spare everyone the details.  I chalk it up to him being young and inexperienced.  It's difficult to understand certain things if you have no reference point. 

 

Yes to the bolded. I'm pleased that my son is a feminist, but he's still young and his thinking still needs to evolve (his adhd also means he's a bit behind other 18 year olds in maturity level). Ds doesn't understand why his girlfriend's mother won't let her walk alone after dark to the nearby strip mall when she wants to. Part of that I think is that as a relatively strong male he just doesn't get the anxiety level of a small female (or her parents) in thinking about "what could happen". Part is just immaturity and a (fortunate?) lack of experience with the kinds of people she could encounter. He just thinks her parents are being overprotective (and she's not 18 herself yet, so yeah, they get to tell her she can't).

 

re stereotypes only count as prejudice if they are negative:

 

 

 

This was largely the view of my basically well-intentioned family growing up.  Blacks are better athletes/more musical/better dancers, Asians are better at math/violin, women are more nurturing, gay men can sing better/have better design sense, etc -- so long as the stereotype was "positive," no problem.

 

We all got scope for growth.

 

Dh and I each grew up in a family like that. I think possibly it's a generational thing. They were more aware of racism than their parents and knew it was wrong. OTOH, they didn't have a real understanding of what racism really is. ETA: Yes, there are still people who don't get it, but I was just speaking to the generational aspect of it in relation to our parents.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Lady Florida