PSA and vent: death and probate

[fdrinca]

My father recently passed away, leaving behind a hastely-made will. (I'm thankful for the will, though, as there could be problems otherwise.) My poor younger sister is local to the estate and is the executor, but she is so overwhelmed with the process and her own grief. My father did not want to talk about his end of life issues, even as he knew he had terminal cancer, so those simple forms he could have signed two months ago but refused to confront are now causing little sis major anxiety.

 

(Wrinkle: estranged older half-sis is taking possession of his house, a money pit and my childhood home. Little sis and I want out of responsibility for the house ASAP, if only because we are fearful that we will be roped into some financial liability. So, we'd like a speedy resolution, not the protracted probate situation.)

 

So, please get your estates in order, even if you have very little to pass on. Encourage your parents to do the same. I know it's at the top of my to do list .

Edited March 11, 2016 by fdrinca

[Luckymama]

:grouphug: So sorry!

 

The best gift my dad left us (my mom predeceased him by 23 months) was an estate easy to settle. Everything but one car was folded into a trust. Yet it still took 8 months until the house settlement!

[Bambam]

My dad knew he was dying. He had a will for many years. He moved to assisted living, told all of us to come by the house and pick out anything we wanted. After that, he set up an estate sale for everything left in the house plus the house itself was auctioned off at the end of the estate sale. There were still a few things left for my sister to take care of, but the sale of the stuff and house made everything much easier. 

[AnnE-girl]

Dh had to fax will documents to the ICU for a family member who refused to make a will even though his cancer was aggressively spreading. This relative was otherwise the most responsible person, but he just didn't want to face making his will until he was quite literally on his deathbed. It was all very straightforward, but had he not had the last minute will, it would have dragged out for his family. Having an attorney in the family can be very helpful.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[The Girls' Mom]

Yes!  When my step-dad passed away (years after my mom passed away) it was a nightmare.  The only clue we had to his intent were a few conversations he had with me over the phone, and a hand-written list that his live-in girlfriend produced from somewhere.  She suddenly expected to inherit pretty much everything despite the fact that just one month before he passed away he had updated his insurance beneficiaries and didn't have her listed on them at all.  A mess.  In the process we lost some things that were valuable only to my brother and I (Christmas decorations, home videos and photos from our childhood) that she took out of spite.

[brehon]

Dear heavens, AMEN!!!!

 

My FIL technically had a will. Only it was one he made decades prior when his 1st wife (dh's mother) was still living. Some years after her death he remarried and he and his second wife moved back to their home state. Dh and his siblings tried without success to get him to update his will. He adamantly refused because "you can't trust lawyers".

 

He passed away and the state he lived in did not recognize his will because that state has an "omitted spouse clause". In other words, because his second wife wasn't mentioned in his will (and why would she be as he was married to dh's mother when the will was originally written) the state determined that she was automatically entitled to half of his estate. Although there was general good will on everyone's part (and, to be sure, the second wife is a very nice and good person), FIL intended for the bulk of his estate to benefit his grandchildren. That didn't happen.

 

FIL talked with Dh and dh's eldest sister about what he wanted to happen when he passed away, as he assumed he would pass away first. However, that had all the validity of hearsay, i.e., none at all. The estate wasn't very big and each of his kids wouldn't have received very much anyway. We aren't talking tens of thousands of dollars.

 

Contrast that with my maternal grandparents. Their estate was worth millions and they placed everything they were legally able to in trusts. Because they took care to do this when they still had all their mental faculties settling their estate was relatively simple and painless.

 

It's not the amount of the inheritance nor the size of the estate that is important. It's the fact that if you don't write out what you want to happen, the courts will decide and it may not benefit those who you want to benefit. Trusts are an easy and ultimately cheap way to handle estates, even if you don't have a lot of assets. They are certainly easier and cheaper than probate court.

 

And if you have remarried please, please update your wills. And check that the state you live in doesn't have obscure estate laws that could affect your heirs in a bad way. IOW, consult an estate attorney.

[QueenCat]

My father recently passed away, leaving behind a hastely-made will. (I'm thankful for the will, though, as there could be problems otherwise.) My poor younger sister is local to the estate and is the executor, but she is so overwhelmed with the process and her own grief. My father did not want to talk about his end of life issues, even as he knew he had terminal cancer, so those simple forms he could have signed two months ago but refused to confront are now causing little sis major anxiety.

 

(Wrinkle: estranged older half-sis is taking possession of his house, a money pit and my childhood home. Little sis and I want out of responsibility for the house ASAP, if only because we are fearful that we will be roped into some financial liability. So, we'd like a speedy resolution, not the protracted probate situation.)

 

So, please get your estates in order, even if you have very little to pass on. Encourage your parents to do the same. I know it's at the top of my to do list .

 

Taking possession legally? If not, your little sis really does need to take steps to stop that from happening. Like changing the locks on the doors TODAY.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes!  OP is absolutely correct.  Regardless of how little you may own, if you own ANYTHING AT ALL, please, please, please write a will.  And keep it updated.  You are doing your family a TERRIBLE DISSERVICE not to provide a will.  Wills are not for the dead.  They are for the ones left behind.  Even the friendliest of families can get into serious issues if the deceased failed to provide a will or the will was not clear or was not updated.

 

Along with that will:

1.  Make certain you write out recommendations for custody of any dependent children.  Even if your only choices seem poor, it is better for you to make a recommendation than for someone you KNOW will be a terrible fit to get your kids simply because nothing was written down and they offered to take them.

 

2.  List specific heirlooms and provide a picture.  If there is something you absolutely want to pass on to your kids/grandkids, don't leave that to chance or the good graces of those you leave behind.  Write it down and provide a description and picture.  

 

3.  If you lend out something to someone that you feel is valuable or matters to you, WRITE IT DOWN.  Have the other person sign something indicating this is just a loan.  If you were to suddenly die there may be no way for your family to retrieve that item or to even know where it ended up.  Also, if the other person were to unexpectedly pass away you might not be able to prove that the item(s) belonged to you.  Example:  Friend lent a very large set of expensive tools to a neighbor down the street.  His name was not on those tools.  The neighbor passed away unexpectedly.  There was no proof the friend had lent the tools out so the relatives refused to return the tools.

 

4.  If you know you are dying and there are specific items you want to go to specific people, please just give them those things before you die and write down that you did so.  It can save HUGE issues later on.

 

5.  Don't just assume that people will react as you expect.  Estate settling can bring out all kinds of weird, unexpected behavior.  Be clear in your desires and make sure it is all in writing with a legal document.  

[FaithManor]

(((HUGS))) I am so sorry. We are in the same boat. My father has terminal cancer and is also now mentally ill. He refuses to deal with his legal mess which includes a business that must be disposed of and since he won't sign a power of attorney and it is going to take many months to get a court date to prove he is incompetent, they'll be bankrupt by the time we get one.

 

Sigh...

 

And he knew four years ago that his health was going downhill and even though he was in his right mind and faced two life threatening surgeries, still refused to get his house in order.

 

We will end up totally financially supporting my mom, and her stress level is so high over the inevitable bankruptcy and the thought of being penniless, that it is taking years off her life. She looks like she has aged a decade in a few months, and we see her slowly losing her own will to live.

 

Get a will people. Keep it updated. It is the kindest thing you can do for your survivors.

[fdrinca]

Taking possession legally? If not, your little sis really does need to take steps to stop that from happening. Like changing the locks on the doors TODAY.

 

Yes, legally. We are all but throwing the house key at her! We really want nothing to do with the house. It's very old (1916) and has had almost no improvements during the time my parents lived there (since 1976).

[TechWife]

I'll add my voice to the chorus! Currently my 85 year old father, who has dementia, has no power of attorney or living will. The joint will he has with my mom is over 30 years old, with a bank that no longer exists as the executor. My mother is in declining health and we are not sure that she can legally consent to anything as she recently had a stroke. She, too, has no power of attorney or living will. Just trying to get their bills paid is a mess. 

[Pippen]

Dh had to fax will documents to the ICU for a family member who refused to make a will even though his cancer was aggressively spreading. This relative was otherwise the most responsible person, but he just didn't want to face making his will until he was quite literally on his deathbed. It was all very straightforward, but had he not had the last minute will, it would have dragged out for his family. Having an attorney in the family can be very helpful.

 

My parents were divorced and were at extremes. My dad routinely redid his will, changing formats and writing people in and out according to how the wind blew. When he knew his condition was terminal he sent me lists of accounts, passwords, etc. Everything wasn't in perfect order, but it was a small estate and fairly easily managed.

 

My mother resisted doing any of the legal paperwork, even into her 70's. She talked about it after her parents died...again after her sister died unexpectedly...and again after my son was diagnosed with a life threatening medical condition, but she didn't get it done. I even bought her the will software and helped her through it. She managed to get the power of atty for healthcare done, but nothing else. It was probably a year later when she finally got it done and copied.

 

I know this thread was specific to parents, but as a reminder for those with older teens--it's a good idea to have your kids do the legal paperwork once they turn 18 (will, power of atty for healthcare, power of attorney for finances). Just because your young adults are covered by your insurance doesn't mean you could automatically authorize medical decisions if they were unable to do it for themselves. We'd bought the software but hadn't got around to it when my oldest got sick. He had to do a quick power of attorney for healthcare there at the hospital--thankfully he was conscious and able to do so. Now as a matter of course the other kids do it soon after they turn 18. 

[elegantlion]

Even if stuff doesn't have to go through probate, it can be a huge pain. My dad died at the end of November, all assets were set up okay, except Social Security has been a huge pain to deal with. Thankfully my mom has always been the one to deal with most of the admin details, so she knows how to stay on top of things, but some of the it is just exhausting to deal with. 

[datgh]

Tell little sis to hire a good estate lawyer and before anything happens with any of the estate. It will take a big load off of her. You may need to sell the house to pay the estate taxes depending on the laws of the state so step sis shouldn't move in yet. I was executor of my uncle's estate in NJ. The value of his estate was mostly in the house. On a 250,000 dollar estate I paid over $40,000 in taxes. Also, unless step sis was given the house in the will it will probably need to be appraised to satisfy probate and step sis may have to buy you out to satisfy the will and so she has clear title.

[datgh]

Tell little sis to hire a good estate lawyer and before anything happens with any of the estate. It will take a big load off of her. You may need to sell the house to pay the estate taxes depending on the laws of the state so step sis shouldn't move in yet. I was executor of my uncle's estate in NJ. The value of his estate was mostly in the house. On a 250,000 dollar estate I paid over $40,000 in taxes. Also, unless step sis was given the house in the will it will probably need to be appraised to satisfy probate and step sis may have to buy you out to satisfy the will and so she has clear title.

 

After I was done with my uncle's estate, I told my parents that I would not be executor of their estate unless they hired a good lawyer and drew up a good will.  After Dad passed away, I went with Mom to the lawyer and we set up a trust and put all her assets in it.  When she passes away I become trustee and distribute the assets according to the will without having to take all the time to get through probate. Every state is different so it is worth hiring a good estate lawyer to help you sort things out. Money well spent in my opinion.

[brehon]

Yes, legally. We are all but throwing the house key at her! We really want nothing to do with the house. It's very old (1916) and has had almost no improvements during the time my parents lived there (since 1976).

 

 

 

Tell little sis to hire a good estate lawyer and before anything happens with any of the estate. It will take a big load off of her. You may need to sell the house to pay the estate taxes depending on the laws of the state so step sis shouldn't move in yet. I was executor of my uncle's estate in NJ. The value of his estate was mostly in the house. On a 250,000 dollar estate I paid over $40,000 in taxes. Also, unless step sis was given the house in the will it will probably need to be appraised to satisfy probate and step sis may have to buy you out to satisfy the will and so she has clear title.

This is very important! Depending on your state's laws (or, rather, the state where your father lived) it may be illegal for your step-sister to just move in. And illegal for your sister as the executor of the estate to just let her. Please have your sister consult an estate attorney. Many times these attorneys can be paid out of the proceeds of the estate. Your sister could be held personally liable for failing to act as a responsible executor, again depending on the state's probate laws. Even if you and your sister don't want the house, you must go through the proper probate steps.

[G5052]

Yes, don't get me started. I've handled family estates with a will, with a will and trust (the easiest by far), and with no will.

 

If you don't know who to set up as executor, you can pick a bank trust department. They'll take a percentage, but it will get done.

[Reflections]

I disagree that a Will is always the way to go.  My mother died in Florida intestate (without a will).  She had a condo and a truck. She had debts. My brother and I were her only heirs. We hired a lawyer after her death to handle the court filings. Some of her debts were cleared on death (non secured loans).  The condo and the truck were deeded to us in both our names.  We arranged with the mortgage company to continue payments.  The process took 6 weeks.

 

What happened after.  What my brother did.  Now THAT was the awful part.  But her dying without a will wasn't the tough part.

 

 

But, I digress.  In some states it's awful to not have a will, I get that.  I was only making a point to know your states laws.  And do that.  Love your children enough to make your passing easy, not trauma on top of trauma.

 

OP:  Hugs.  I'm sorry for you and your family's loss.  

[Tsuga]

My father recently passed away, leaving behind a hastely-made will. (I'm thankful for the will, though, as there could be problems otherwise.) My poor younger sister is local to the estate and is the executor, but she is so overwhelmed with the process and her own grief. My father did not want to talk about his end of life issues, even as he knew he had terminal cancer, so those simple forms he could have signed two months ago but refused to confront are now causing little sis major anxiety.

 

(Wrinkle: estranged older half-sis is taking possession of his house, a money pit and my childhood home. Little sis and I want out of responsibility for the house ASAP, if only because we are fearful that we will be roped into some financial liability. So, we'd like a speedy resolution, not the protracted probate situation.)

 

So, please get your estates in order, even if you have very little to pass on. Encourage your parents to do the same. I know it's at the top of my to do list .

 

I am so so sorry for your loss.

 

I believe that this next generation will be much better prepared, sadly, for these issues, in part because of people like you who are willing to speak out.

 

But speaking out is important. Thank you for doing so.

[applethyme]

My father has been dead 10 years now and his estate is still not settled.  He refused to believe his cancer was terminal and as a result refused to discuss anything.  After his death we found no less than 10 life insurance policies each with different beneficiaries.  Only one of the policies were in effect.  There were stock certificates at his house, my house, his mothers house, the vacation house, a bank safe deposit box.  I'm not even sure we found them all.  We were not able to locate his savings bonds and an actual inventory of the estate was impossible as he stored tools and other things with many friends and family members.  The will we finally found was dated 10 years before his death and named a former girlfriend as a beneficiary.  His wife was not amused.  A few months later a later will was found making his mother, who had dementia, the executor of the estate and did not include the girlfriend.  It is a tangled mess that will never be resolved.  I pretty sure he did not realize that the mess he left behind meant that the bulk of his estate was essentially stolen by other family members and friends since there was no way to account for anything.  Before giving away any clothing or other items all had to be checked carefully, after he died I went to use his bathroom and when I pulled out a hand towel, $20 bills fluttered to the floor, he was trying to hide money from his wife.  Every towel in the cabinet had cash tucked into it.  :sad:

 

 

[Teresa in MO]

Sometimes even with a will, or trust, things are still unsettled.  My dad died three years ago, six months after my brother tragically ended his life, and 25 years after my mom had passed away.  He remarried one year after that and was married over 20 years before his second wife passed away.  It was always our understanding that everything was in order and in a trust to be split equally between his kids and his second wife's kids.  Nothing was further from the truth. I was to be co-executor along with one of his second wife's sons.  When he suggested going to a lawyer he was familiar with to help sort everything out we found out that even though a trust was set up, nothing was put into the trust.  The lawyer drew up papers that everyone was supposed to sign and agree to and that's when I started feeling uncomfortable.  I did alot of research and found out because he went to the lawyer, the lawyer was only representing what was in his best interest, and not necessarily our side (my brother, brother's family, and mine).  My dh and I decided that we needed to find our own attorney and I am so glad we did.  The papers were definitely not in our best interest.  Legally, because nothing was deeded into the trust, we were entitled to everything.  My dad was very financially smart.  I talked to the lawyer who drew up his trust and was told my dad was very well aware that in order for the trust to be funded, he would have to place his assets into the trust. So I truly believed that he had purposely decided not to fund the trust.  I spent many sleepless nights trying to figure out what to do, because the decision was left to me in how things should be split.  And I kept coming back to my mom.  My mom grew up very poor.  She worked very long hours my whole life so her kids would experience what she did.  We were very middle class, not rich, but did not need for anything because of the sacrifices she made.  Alot of what my dad and his second wife had was because of the sacrifice she made.  I felt that she needed to be factored into the estate somehow.  So with the help of our attorney, we came up with a formula that would divide the estate.  There were three kids on each side.  While things were not equal, they were very fair.  Legally, we did not have to give them anything, but that was never a consideration.  I do firmly believe that if my dad had passed first, we would not have seen anything.  Two of her kids were very satisfied with the settlement, the third was not.  But she was the one who benefited financially while they were still alive.

[Pegasus]

 Before giving away any clothing or other items all had to be checked carefully, after he died I went to use his bathroom and when I pulled out a hand towel, $20 bills fluttered to the floor, he was trying to hide money from his wife.  Every towel in the cabinet had cash tucked into it.  :sad:

 

This is my nightmare.  My FIL and MIL have so much STUFF and several outbuildings full of more STUFF.  I've threatened (we get along well, so this was lighthearted) to simply light some matches once they are gone.  I've also quizzed them on whether they have any cash stashes around the house that we need to be aware of.

 

My parents are both deceased. My mother died first at which point my father started giving any family keepsakes away to his seven grown children. He also started setting up everything to pass automatically without having to go through probate.  The house and land was deeded to all seven children; the retirement accounts and life insurance had beneficiaries listed, etc. He had a detailed list of his wishes, but it wasn't an official signed will.

 

By the time he died, he had remarried, and he wanted their current bank accounts, vehicles, and his pension to go to her.  Everything else was already in the names of his kids.  There was nothing to fight over.

 

Oh, there was one $30,000 account that his documented list stated was to be divided equally among the seven of us. However, my oldest sister told us that he had told her verbally that he wanted her to have it.  Guess what?  None of the rest of us even raised an objection.  Why?  Because she had been the one to nurse both our mother and father through their final illnesses. We felt she was justified.

[Pegasus]

 

 

I know this thread was specific to parents, but as a reminder for those with older teens--it's a good idea to have your kids do the legal paperwork once they turn 18 (will, power of atty for healthcare, power of attorney for finances). Just because your young adults are covered by your insurance doesn't mean you could automatically authorize medical decisions if they were unable to do it for themselves. We'd bought the software but hadn't got around to it when my oldest got sick. He had to do a quick power of attorney for healthcare there at the hospital--thankfully he was conscious and able to do so. Now as a matter of course the other kids do it soon after they turn 18. 

 

Oh my!  This never even crossed my mind and we have one DD over 18. Thank you!! We will get on this immediately.

[G5052]

This is my nightmare.  My FIL and MIL have so much STUFF and several outbuildings full of more STUFF.  I've threatened (we get along well, so this was lighthearted) to simply light some matches once they are gone.  I've also quizzed them on whether they have any cash stashes around the house that we need to be aware of.

 

I had to hire an "estate organizer" for one of the estates I've administered. The person was a hoarder, and no way could I go out-of-state and handle going through all of their stuff during just a short trip. The person was licensed and bonded, and by all accounts did a great job. They brought in a dumpster and sorted everything and got the house "broom clean" in just over a week with part-time teams of college students. My co-administrator (a bank trust officer) commented that people like that can go very quickly because they don't have an emotional attachment to things.

 

There was almost nothing of value -- just one vehicle that was consigned to an auction house.

 

We sold the house last month, and I breathed a big sigh of relief. This one may actually settle by the end of 2016.

[Laura Corin]

My brother is working on my mother's house at present.  He has found bank statements back to 1986.  Mum is still alive (staying with me) but was overwhelmed by the house and is (finally) happy to have him take it on.

 

She has a will and a POA financial.  She is signing the POA health and welfare next week.  The house should be straight in a month or two.

 

Meanwhile, Husband and I are setting up POAs for ourselves this weekend and are working on new wills.  

[AmyontheFarm]

Like Pippen mentioned have your children get their wills when they turn 18.  It makes a great birthday gift! LOL  

 

If you have a family member with a mental health illness you need to be prepared ahead of time. 

 

We had the added headache of helping our bipolar dd get her paperwork in order just in case she was to descent into a state of mania again, we with her dr's blessing can take control of her financial and medical needs.  She realized this was important because she could see how she was taken advantage of when she last went through mania before the her diagnosis of bipolar was finally given.

Talk with lawyers, the bank, all the doctors & hospitals, services providers your child currently uses and anyone you think of.  We were able to sign paper work across all the services that will allow us to help her in the future, if it's needed. 

 

If you own a business that is time sensitive (for us that is a dairy farm with cows that need to be milked, etc)  then please have conversations with family members on how to proceed if something was to take you out of the picture with the day to day operations.   We've had to step in and help a family sell everything quickly because the man (un married, no kids) ran everything on his farm and his sibling had left the farm decades earlier. They had no clue how many animals needed tending and didn't even think about the animals until the next day. Luckily we heard the afternoon that he died and quickly made arrangements to take care of his animals until family could arrive - days later.  Could you image how terrible that would have been for the animals?

[Joyofsixreboot]

From recent experience I could not agree more. ((((Hugs))))) :grouphug: