Article re: dishes, wrong hamburger, emotions

[Forget-Me-Not]

In my home that would be a disrespectful response. It would make me feel like the marriage was not a partnership, rather one person was the "boss" paying for cooking and cleaning.

 

This. 

 

In our house, we thank each other.  Very simple, and often all it takes to make one of us feel better if we are feeling a bit ignored.  It doesn't matter "my job" or "his job".  He says, "oh thanks for doing all that laundry"  I say, "thanks for shoveling the driveway, it was so cold outside".    It seems so simple, but it keeps either one of us from feeling taken for granted.

 

And this. 

 

I hated this article, and I'm having a hard time putting my finger on why.  I think some of it is that he starts with the premise that all women and men approach these problems the same way.  He's got it all figured out.  He's so magnanimous about putting the stupid glass in the dishwasher (or whatever else that represents).  Like, "Here is the Magic Formula to Save Your Marriage and Keep Your Wife From Nagging You".  And I bet if you spoke to his wife, she'd have a very different version of events over why the marriage ended.  I get that he's trying to say it's about mutual respect, but this article seems disrespectful of both men and women in general. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Forget-me-not

[pinkmint]

Interesting blog this guy has. I wonder if his ex-wife reads it.

[Alice]

It's been my experience that a successful relationship requires equal parts putting the glass in the dishwasher, and learning to let it go when the glass is left by the sink, on both sides.

 

 

  So the other shows respect by trying to accommodate the spouse's quirks.

 

I agree with both of these. 

 

The glass by the sink thing is actually one of my pet peeves. I cannot fathom why someone would take the trouble to put dishes on the counter beside the dishwasher but not open it up and put them in. Drives me batty. So I understood the concept of the article. :) 

 

The difference though is that I don't see it as a lack of respect or love for me. I see it as just that it's one of my quirks and something more important to me than dh. I try to let it go most of the time and the times when I maybe make too much of a thing about...he lets it go. He has his own quirks, like leaving the fridge open for more than a millisecond and mostly I try to accommodate him and sometimes he lets it go when I forget. 

[DesertBlossom]

I felt like this was a little one-sided. Maybe because I am the one more likely to leave the glass out.

 

 

I think is exactly why this article bugged me so much. I'm not very good about picking up after myself. Add in 6 six children in under 10 years, and I constantly feel like I'm behind on everything. It's a never-ending race I can't win. If I also had somebody chewing my a$$ out because something wasn't done just so, I'd give up completely. The fact that DH doesn't complain and just loves me anyway is the reason I keep trying.

[heartlikealion]

I can totally see why the glass thing would get old fast. Dh and I are both guilty of things similar to the glass. More and more I'm doing things I don't feel I should have to do (or to the frequency, etc.) because it beats waiting or nagging. But if you're like the woman in the article you don't want to wait or nag about the glass. You just want the other person to hear you out and oblige. On the other hand, it seems to help if you do something the other person especially likes before asking about the task you want done. Doing the laundry or common household chores may not necessarily inspire your mate, although those are things to be appreciated.

[fraidycat]

I think some people are way too focused on "the glass". I highly doubt it was *ONLY* a glass left by the sink that caused a marriage to fail. But, if you find something important and your spouse constantly belittles or disrepects whatever that something is, then you're going to feel disrespected. Dishes, laundry, homeschooling, lifestyle, diet, exercise, religion - they all fall along one continuum. It's not the best recipe for *happily ever after* to have your "quirks" brushed off as "your problem, not mine, deal with it" by the person whom you've pledged to live day after day after day with. Especially if that spouse's love language was 'Acts of Service'.

 

The glass is a metaphor for "I did not respect my spouses wants/needs/quirks as much as I could/should have and I realize that now." Death by 1,000 papercuts, indeed. I'd not expect a full dissertation on the rise and fall of a complicated human relationship in a single blog post.

[MaeFlowers]

I'm having trouble with the idea that it is reasonable or understandable, these requests for glasses to not be next to the sink. Maybe it's because I have history with very type-A parents and it strikes a nerve? IDK. These requests, as discussed in the articles, come across to me as very type-A, very controlling, and yes - abusive. Not that asking that glasses be put in the dishwasher is abusive, but tying them into love or respect for your spouse. If the genders were reversed, I think it would be much more obvious.

 

I think what is missing for me in many of the posts here is the idea of balance. Not balance as in, I have quirks that he indulges, he has quirks that I indulge. But balance as in - I have this need to feel appreciated, respected, loved, etc. I would like my spouse to do _____ in order to express this to me. But what is my spouse capable of doing in this regard? Is he showing me these things in other ways?

 

It just seems so one-sided.

 

I'm just really glad that my spouse is type-Z, just like me. Not that we haven't had our issues, but I shudder to think the anxiety I would have in my own home, my own life, if such strong emotions were tied to such unimportant tasks.

I get what your saying and I think whether or not it is controlling or abusive depends on how it plays out. I think that a controlling or abusive person demands these things be done without flexibility or care for the other person's feelings. It can definitely be a fine line, though.

[Pawz4me]

I think some people are way too focused on "the glass". I highly doubt it was *ONLY* a glass left by the sink that caused a marriage to fail. But, if you find something important and your spouse constantly belittles or disrepects whatever that something is, then you're going to feel disrespected. Dishes, laundry, homeschooling, lifestyle, diet, exercise, religion - they all fall along one continuum. It's not the best recipe for *happily ever after* to have your "quirks" brushed off as "your problem, not mine, deal with it" by the person whom you've pledged to live day after day after day with. Especially if that spouse's love language was 'Acts of Service'.

 

The glass is a metaphor for "I did not respect my spouses wants/needs/quirks as much as I could/should have and I realize that now." Death by 1,000 papercuts, indeed. I'd not expect a full dissertation on the rise and fall of a complicated human relationship in a single blog post.

 

Yes!!  It's driving me batty that so many are zeroing in on the glass. ;)  I don't think that was the point of the post at all.  It's only used as a symbol.

[Guest]

Yes!! It's driving me batty that so many are zeroing in on the glass. ;) I don't think that was the point of the post at all. It's only used as a symbol.

I don't think the article is all about the glass, either, but as a Recovering Perfectionist, I totally get how respect can get all wrapped up in a glass left out. Early in my marriage, I had an epiphany about how pride and inflexibility was tied to perfectionism and contempt for other people. Because so long as I believed MY way was the One Perfect Way of doing something, I was annoyed or disdainful about someone doing it their own way. Also, at least in my case, perfectionism was a manifestation of an anxiety disorder. The more anxious I am, the more I dwell on ridiculous things like the salt and pepper shakers not put back in the cabinet. Rigidly controlling inanimate objects "helps" me feel less out of control.

 

Anyway, my marriage and my parenting became vastly more enjoyable when I came to understand that people can do things differently and not be doing them wrong. It could even be true that they had the better idea. And my worth as a person did not depend on having a magazine-perfect home.

 

P.S. Please, nobody interpret my post to say that I'm all done fixing this about myself!

[Bluegoat]

Yes!!  It's driving me batty that so many are zeroing in on the glass. ;)  I don't think that was the point of the post at all.  It's only used as a symbol.

 

Well, I talked abuot the glass but I realized it was a metaphor or possibly an example.  I just carried on using it because it was the metaphor that happened to be sitting on the counter.

 

But everything I said about it applies to the whole idea - it still seems very one-sided. 

 

It's possible it was a bad symbol and actually the guy was a complete slob, but that wasn't the impression he gave - it seemed to be part of his point that it wasn't a big deal type thing.

[Laura Corin]

I don't think the article is all about the glass, either, but as a Recovering Perfectionist, I totally get how respect can get all wrapped up in a glass left out. Early in my marriage, I had an epiphany about how pride and inflexibility was tied to perfectionism and contempt for other people. 

 

I think there is also a question of scale.  If a spouse has three or four unchanging silly things that they care about, then it's easy to respect the person by working with the quirk.  

 

If it's everything, then it's definitely a problem.  Visiting my MIL was torture because there was absolutely no leeway - a water bottle left (on a coaster) on the sitting room table, or a pair of shoes by the door, were an offence to her picture of how her house should be.  She was a nice woman who had no idea that she was in any way difficult.

[8circles]

Yes!!  It's driving me batty that so many are zeroing in on the glass. ;)  I don't think that was the point of the post at all.  It's only used as a symbol.

 

I don't know which posts you think are "zeroing in on the glass" but I don't hear anyone doing that.  It's about love, respect, control, perfection, anxiety, etc.  It would really be nice to hear from the people who care about the glass who understand that these emotions are also present in the people who leave the glass out.  Because ahhh, don't have time.  going to enjoy breakfast with DH.

 

At the same time, if it isn't about the glass, or about the ground beef, or about the toilet seat, or about the socks on the floor, then don't make it about that.  If someone doesn't feel loved or respected in their relationship, why on earth would they argue about glasses or meat or socks or toilets?  Because I personally know people who complain about these things & there is at least one poster in this thread who is admitting to being the person who cares (cared?) about the glass & to some degree, it is most certainly ABOUT THE GLASS.

 

To the extent that these needs for perfection are "normal", I wonder how much of these problems are just about not being a good personality match.

[8circles]

I think there is also a question of scale.  If a spouse has three or four unchanging silly things that they care about, then it's easy to respect the person by working with the quirk.  

 

If it's everything, then it's definitely a problem.  Visiting my MIL was torture because there was absolutely no leeway - a water bottle left (on a coaster) on the sitting room table, or a pair of shoes by the door, were an offence to her picture of how her house should be.  She was a nice woman who had no idea that she was in any way difficult.

 

I stayed with my parents for a few months in between houses and it was eye-opening.  While I was in the shower, she came in the bathroom (my bathroom was on a separate floor in a different "wing", not shared with anyone) to collect my dirty clothes from the floor - that I just took off..  She couldn't stand there being laundry that wasn't done. 

[8circles]

One more thing - I envy you people who have magazine-worthy homes. I'd love to have one but couldn't do it if I tried. I'd fail AND go crazy.

[Laura Corin]

 If someone doesn't feel loved or respected in their relationship, why on earth would they argue about glasses or meat or socks or toilets?  

 

I think you might be mistaking the tone.  In our family, it's a one-time conversation,

 

'I just wanted to mention that I would find it easier to get to the right glass if the small ones are on one side of the shelf and the large ones on the other.  Would that be okay?'

 

'Oh, yes, sorry - I hadn't thought about that.  Would short on the left and tall on the right work?'

 

'Whichever.  That sounds good.'

[SparklyUnicorn]

I stayed with my parents for a few months in between houses and it was eye-opening.  While I was in the shower, she came in the bathroom (my bathroom was on a separate floor in a different "wing", not shared with anyone) to collect my dirty clothes from the floor - that I just took off..  She couldn't stand there being laundry that wasn't done. 

 

Sounds like my MIL.  When I visit she'll go through my suitcase looking for dirty clothes (without asking me).  These are not clothes I leave around.  She once washed some of these clothes and in one of the pockets was my watch.  She didn't check pockets because her rule is pockets need to be emptied by the clothing wearer.  Except, again I did not leave these articles of clothing out.  She ruined my watch.  She didn't seem to think it was her fault.  Thankfully it was a cheap watch. 

 

If someone came into the bathroom while I was showering..oh man I'd lose it.  At least she never did that.  Although she'd think nothing of doing that to my husband. 

[VaKim]

But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is “I got this,†and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.

I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.â€

But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.

She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.

I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time.

 

 

This was perfect. Exactly. I have said in the past that I am tired of being the one who does all the thinking in my house. Yes, the others who live here (DH and DDs) will do whatever I ask them to when I ask them to. But I am ultimately responsible to make sure everything gets done. I am apparently the only one who has the super powers to see what needs done. It is tiring. It is emotionally exhausting at times. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This was perfect. Exactly. I have said in the past that I am tired of being the one who does all the thinking in my house. Yes, the others who live here (DH and DDs) will do whatever I ask them to when I ask them to. But I am ultimately responsible to make sure everything gets done. I am apparently the only one who has the super powers to see what needs done. It is tiring. It is emotionally exhausting at times. 

 

Haha...yeah I say if you want to turn me on, do the dishes!

[8circles]

I think you might be mistaking the tone.  In our family, it's a one-time conversation,

 

'I just wanted to mention that I would find it easier to get to the right glass if the small ones are on one side of the shelf and the large ones on the other.  Would that be okay?'

 

'Oh, yes, sorry - I hadn't thought about that.  Would short on the left and tall on the right work?'

 

'Whichever.  That sounds good.'

 

Gosh, I might be.  I hope I'm not coming across as talking about all the people in this thread who have quirks.  It sounds like you & your DH are a good match & you've come to some understandings that you're both happy with.  

 

But I also think your situation is not represented in either of the articles recently posted.  Conversations like you mention above are examples of communication in healthy relationships.  I'm sure I've said similar things to DH & he has said similar things to me.  The difference is (since we're both deficient in EF skills and both type-Z) the responses are more like "Sure, I can see how that'd work better.  I'll try to remember that."  & then after a few months of trying and (gently) reminding on either side & then trying a different way because that way either doesn't work well or one of us can't remember to do it that way..... a few months later we MIGHT have gotten into a routine that works for both of us.  If either one of us was matched with someone a little more particular, we'd probably end up like the couples in the articles.

[maize]

This article bothers me because I struggle immensely with organization and order and forgetting stuff. There are all kinds of things I do that my husband wishes I wouldn't--like walking around the house while eating, leaving cups by the computer, leaving clothes where I take them off. Just like my parents and teachers were bothered by my messy room, messy backpack, forgotten assignments...

 

In neither case is the failure to meet the expectations a result of lack of respect or caring. I don't particularly like the confused blurr that often seems to be all the brain I've got, but as far as I can remember no one ever gave me a chance to pick a different one off the shelf.

 

I expect my husband to respect me enough to accept me as I am, weaknesses included; and I expect to do the same for him. I don't plan to divorce him because I don't like the ways his anxiety and depression impact our lives, and I don't expect him to divorce (or condemn) me because of the ways my ADHD affects our lives.

 

I guess for me the fundamental key is to acknowledge and value and respect the other as a full and complete person, with thoughts and needs and desires and struggles unique to themselves--and to choose to walk beside them in love and companionship.

 

When that is lacking, not just occasionally but consistently, deeply lacking on one or both sides, marriage becomes nothing but a sham. Could a glass left out--or irritation over a glass left out--be a symptom of such a lack? Possibly. Or possibly not.

Edited January 24, 2016 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

This article bothers me because I struggle immensely with organization and order and forgetting stuff. There are all kinds of things I do that my husband wishes I wouldn't--like walking around the house while eating, leaving cups by the computer, leaving clothes where I take them off. Just like my parents and teachers were bothered by my messy room, messy backpack, forgotten assignments...

 

In neither case is the failure to meet the expectations a result of lack of respect or caring. I don't particularly like the confused blurr that often seems to be all the brain I've got, but as far as I can remember no one ever gave me a chance to pick a different one off the shelf.

 

I expect my husband to respect me enough to accept me as I am, weaknesses included; and I expect to do the same for him. I don't plan to divorce him because I don't like the ways his anxiety and depression impact our lives, and I don't expect him to divorce (or condemn) me because of the ways my ADHD affects our lives.

 

I guess for me the fundamental key is to acknowledge and value and respect the other as a full and complete person, with thoughts and needs and desires and struggles unique to themselves--and to choose to walk beside them in love and companionship.

 

When that is lacking, not just occasionally but consistently, deeply lacking on one or both sides, marriage becomes nothing but a sham. Could a glass left out--or irritation over a glass left out--be a symptom of such a lack? Possibly. Or possibly not.

 

I do these things too.  I figure it is ok because I do 95% of the cleaning.

 

I would only be mad at my husband for doing similar things if he never eventually cleaned up after himself.  I bet you are the one who cleans up after yourself eventually right? 

[Carrie12345]

 

 

At the same time, if it isn't about the glass, or about the ground beef, or about the toilet seat, or about the socks on the floor, then don't make it about that.  If someone doesn't feel loved or respected in their relationship, why on earth would they argue about glasses or meat or socks or toilets?  

 

Because many, many people aren't consciously aware of where these emotions are coming from.  And if they're unable to unpack all that, they likely feel stupid for having such a serious reaction to such a ridiculous example, so they're even less likely to examine why that is and can't convey the real stuff before exploding over the glass.

[maize]

I do these things too. I figure it is ok because I do 95% of the cleaning.

 

I would only be mad at my husband for doing similar things if he never eventually cleaned up after himself. I bet you are the one who cleans up after yourself eventually right?

Yes, I do most of the clean up. But--that doesn't mean the usual level of disorder in the house is not problematic for my anxiety-prone dh. He would be more relaxed in a tidier environment, and I sincerely want to provide one. So far though I haven't had much success.

 

I think we do OK as long as we each recognize that the other cares and is trying to contribute to the overall happiness and welfare of the family.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, I do most of the clean up. But--that doesn't mean the usual level of disorder in the house is not problematic for my anxiety-prone dh. He would be more relaxed in a tidier environment, and I sincerely want to provide one. So far though I haven't had much success.

 

I think we do OK as long as we each recognize that the other cares and is trying to contribute to the overall happiness and welfare of the family.

 

To be fair you have a large family.  The house is unlikely to be perfectly picked up most of the time.

 

I don't have this excuse.  LOL

[iamonlyone]

I'm enjoying two things about the responses in this thread:

 

1. It is cool how many posters either cannot relate because this kind of issue is so foreign to them or they do experientially understand how emotions can get tied to the unimportant but have a mutually caring marriage and lovingly work on differences. Both are great ways to model healthy relationship to your children! (Plus, it's not bad for those of us who grew up in dysfunctional homes to see specific examples of working things out.)

 

2. I always learn a lot on these boards from those with different paradigms from my own. (I rarely post but frequently lurk!) From other posts I have been reminded in many ways to live a life of grace toward my husband (which I know, but the examples, reminders, and perspectives are helpful), and to take responsibility for my own health/joy (something I hadn't thought through). Instead of being unhappy about dh's choices, I continue to work on allowing him the freedom to be his own person and, if it affects the children and me, to give myself the freedom to do things like go to events or on trips without him (or buy the brand of chocolate I like, remember that post?), rather than missing things and being upset.

[8circles]

Because many, many people aren't consciously aware of where these emotions are coming from. And if they're unable to unpack all that, they likely feel stupid for having such a serious reaction to such a ridiculous example, so they're even less likely to examine why that is and can't convey the real stuff before exploding over the glass.

Right. Which is why this article about the glass is so ridiculous. If the person having the problem doesn't even know what the real problem is, why would you expect the other person to know that it isn't really about the glass?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Right. Which is why this article about the glass is so ridiculous. If the person having the problem doesn't even know what the real problem is, why would you expect the other person to know that it isn't really about the glass?

 

I don't see this as being about the glass.  To me the problem is feeling like the other person doesn't consider you.  They don't pay attention to you.  They make no effort to live cooperatively with you.  Of course another problem could be unrealistic expectations.  It's one thing to want a glass put away.  It's another to think a person will do everything exactly how you want all the time.

 

For me, if it really did come down to a glass on the counter, then that person does not know me, never knew me, and never will.  This is so incredibly unimportant and piddly to me.  (I'm speaking if literally my spouse was upset about a glass on the counter.)

Edited January 24, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[heartlikealion]

Right. Which is why this article about the glass is so ridiculous. If the person having the problem doesn't even know what the real problem is, why would you expect the other person to know that it isn't really about the glass?

 

They might observe it as a lack of listening or caring, but not equate that with disrespect. Either way, I think on some level they see it as a problem beyond housekeeping even if it's not totally obvious to the person that drinks from the glass.

 

Don't we like it better when someone else cooks? Or someone else fills up the tank in the car? Maybe it's a little thing, but it can matter.

 

I think one of the biggest excuses we use is, "it only takes X minutes. Why don't you do it yourself?" and then not think about the fact that when someone else does something it has a different effect. Right or wrong.

 

[marbel]

<snip>

 

In neither case is the failure to meet the expectations a result of lack of respect or caring. I don't particularly like the confused blurr that often seems to be all the brain I've got, but as far as I can remember no one ever gave me a chance to pick a different one off the shelf.

 

I expect my husband to respect me enough to accept me as I am, weaknesses included; and I expect to do the same for him. I don't plan to divorce him because I don't like the ways his anxiety and depression impact our lives, and I don't expect him to divorce (or condemn) me because of the ways my ADHD affects our lives.

 

<snip>

 

That's where good communication, and really knowing your spouse, come in. 

 

My husband gets annoyed when he sees wooden cooking utensils soaking in the sink.  It's bad for them.  For a long time, he'd complain to me about them.  I would apologize and let it go, and try to do better.  But when I'm cooking a lot, and in a hurry, sometimes everything gets thrown in the sink. 

 

Finally one day I said "look, I'm sorry and I'm not doing it on purpose and I'm not doing it to make you mad.  I just forget when I'm busy and in a hurry. If you see it, please assume it was a mistake and take the thing out of the water; if you put it up on the edge of the sink I'll deal with it."

 

Never had the problem since.  Either I am getting better, or he is dealing with it.

 

This is as petty an example as the glass by the sink.

 

On the other hand, I get annoyed when my husband comes home from work and drops his jacket on the chair by the door instead of putting it in the closet which is next to the door.   But I see that he's just in a hurry, the dog's barking at him to go outside and play for a minute, his hands are full, he's slipping off his jacket and leaving it in the most convenient space. Sometimes he goes back and hangs it up, sometimes he doesn't.  He apologizes when he sees me do it and tells me he's trying to remember.

 

So we accept it and we acknowledge it. I think it's the lack of acknowledgement that makes the problem worse.

[MaeFlowers]

I don't know which posts you think are "zeroing in on the glass" but I don't hear anyone doing that. It's about love, respect, control, perfection, anxiety, etc. It would really be nice to hear from the people who care about the glass who understand that these emotions are also present in the people who leave the glass out. Because ahhh, don't have time. going to enjoy breakfast with DH.

 

At the same time, if it isn't about the glass, or about the ground beef, or about the toilet seat, or about the socks on the floor, then don't make it about that. If someone doesn't feel loved or respected in their relationship, why on earth would they argue about glasses or meat or socks or toilets? Because I personally know people who complain about these things & there is at least one poster in this thread who is admitting to being the person who cares (cared?) about the glass & to some degree, it is most certainly ABOUT THE GLASS.

 

To the extent that these needs for perfection are "normal", I wonder how much of these problems are just about not being a good personality match.

I'm one who cars about the glass and does think it can be a sign of disrespect. (I actually don't care about the glass, per se.) Anyway, for me, it is about respect.

 

My dh is a mess. Looking at him, you wouldn't think it but he is. He just leaves things where they lie. If he puts a paper down on the kitchen counter, it would stay there for 6-8 months. He does this with everything. He just doesn't care or see it. He's probably ADHD, as well, and cares nothing about the details. That's fine. Frustrating at times, but fine. It just went to extraordinary degrees because it was everything. He would eat a snack, and he left the mess for me. He mowed the lawn. Left the mower in the middle of the yard. Painted a room. Left the paint tray in the floor.

 

However, because I'm not the nagging type, I ended up cleaning up all his messes. I cleaned the paint tray and put the mower up. (This wasn't a time issue. The mower sat in the yard for well over a week once because I wanted to see what he would do.) I spent my mornings picking up his dirty clothes off he floor, his dirty dishes off the table (midnight snack), etc. I spent more time out of my day cleaning up after him than cleaning up after me. It got really old really quick. I felt like his maid. Finally, I said something. I explained how I didn't want to spend my time picking up after him, that my time was valuable, too. He had never thought about it that way I guess. So, he started picking up after himself more. I didn't nag or throw fits. I didn't and don't expect perfection.

I guess I just feel like leaving messes lying around with the expectation that someone else will take care of things for you is disrespectful. I was taught that part of doing something was cleaning up that something when you were done. I couldn't imagine leaving my mess for someone else.

[Samm]

I remember this blog sort of.  He writes from a position of pain and it is brave from that vantage point.  His analyses are superficially plausible (except his definition of sexiness.  I know what sexiness is, and what he describes isn't it) but the greater picture is that he was really mean to her and said horrible things.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's where good communication, and really knowing your spouse, come in. 

 

My husband gets annoyed when he sees wooden cooking utensils soaking in the sink.  It's bad for them.  For a long time, he'd complain to me about them.  I would apologize and let it go, and try to do better.  But when I'm cooking a lot, and in a hurry, sometimes everything gets thrown in the sink. 

 

Finally one day I said "look, I'm sorry and I'm not doing it on purpose and I'm not doing it to make you mad.  I just forget when I'm busy and in a hurry. If you see it, please assume it was a mistake and take the thing out of the water; if you put it up on the edge of the sink I'll deal with it."

 

Never had the problem since.  Either I am getting better, or he is dealing with it.

 

This is as petty an example as the glass by the sink.

 

On the other hand, I get annoyed when my husband comes home from work and drops his jacket on the chair by the door instead of putting it in the closet which is next to the door.   But I see that he's just in a hurry, the dog's barking at him to go outside and play for a minute, his hands are full, he's slipping off his jacket and leaving it in the most convenient space. Sometimes he goes back and hangs it up, sometimes he doesn't.  He apologizes when he sees me do it and tells me he's trying to remember.

 

So we accept it and we acknowledge it. I think it's the lack of acknowledgement that makes the problem worse.

 

I don't buy wooden cooking implements for this reason.  They just can't stand up to my abuse.  LOL

 

 

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

We also don't know if he's oversimplified the glass debate to a great degree. She may have told him it's important to her and that she feels like he's ignoring or being disrespectful to her, and he may just not have registered it. 

 

Here, the problem is the dishes not going into the dishwasher. And I don't mean a single glass, because I'm big on re-using glasses all day long, and we constantly have glasses sitting all over the place. But when a certain someone walks PAST the dishwasher to drop dirty dinner dishes into the scummy water of the pot soaking in the sink, or stacks them up in the clean sink when the empty dishwasher is right there, or doesn't scrape out dishes before dropping them in said sink so I have to scoop out the scummy food from the sink strainer with my bare hands, yes, it feels disrespectful. Especially when I've asked repeatedly, both under the guise of teaching the kids the habit of putting dishes right into the dishwasher and as part of explaining that when grown and nearly grown people in this house leave their dirty dishes in the sink, it makes me feel like the maid. And that's disrespectful. (And woe betide the person who tells me they put their dishes in the sink because they didn't know if the dishwasher was clean or dirty. We don't rinse dishes here. Whether it's clean or dirty is immediately obvious :cursing: ) 

 

Also, sometimes the glass is the last straw. Sometimes we feel like we do, in the interest of balance, overlook a LOT of things--all shirts going into the wash inside out; the slimy, wet, dirty sponge left in the sink constantly; the recycling left, unrinsed, on the counter above the recycling container; how, when someone else makes dinner, I'm still the one who gets to clean the kitchen up and wash the dishes every single time; and so on. I love this guy, and I would never leave him over these little things. He overlooks plenty for me too. But sometimes, something gets stuck in a certain paradigm, and the other person's refusal to shift or accommodate can really start to build resentment. 

 

So I can see where a glass is not a glass in this kind of scenario. We don't know the whole story, and I don't think his blog post was meant to tell the whole entire story of their marriage and every factor that caused their divorce. It was just meant to highlight one important facet for readers to take a deeper look at. And that's actually what we're doing here, so that's a good thing, right? 

Edited January 24, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[SparklyUnicorn]

I never lived with my spouse prior to getting married.  I wouldn't really consider that ideal, but there just was no way to do that.  It made me nervous.  How can a person get to know certain things otherwise?

 

Luckily it turned out fine.

 

 

[heartlikealion]

That's where good communication, and really knowing your spouse, come in. 

 

My husband gets annoyed when he sees wooden cooking utensils soaking in the sink.  It's bad for them.  For a long time, he'd complain to me about them.  I would apologize and let it go, and try to do better.  But when I'm cooking a lot, and in a hurry, sometimes everything gets thrown in the sink. 

 

Finally one day I said "look, I'm sorry and I'm not doing it on purpose and I'm not doing it to make you mad.  I just forget when I'm busy and in a hurry. If you see it, please assume it was a mistake and take the thing out of the water; if you put it up on the edge of the sink I'll deal with it."

 

Never had the problem since.  Either I am getting better, or he is dealing with it.

 

This is as petty an example as the glass by the sink.

 

On the other hand, I get annoyed when my husband comes home from work and drops his jacket on the chair by the door instead of putting it in the closet which is next to the door.   But I see that he's just in a hurry, the dog's barking at him to go outside and play for a minute, his hands are full, he's slipping off his jacket and leaving it in the most convenient space. Sometimes he goes back and hangs it up, sometimes he doesn't.  He apologizes when he sees me do it and tells me he's trying to remember.

 

So we accept it and we acknowledge it. I think it's the lack of acknowledgement that makes the problem worse.

 

I know you two have come to an arrangement of sorts, but I would consider just not having the wooden lol.

 

I'm planning on phasing out our metal because this is our third set of non stick pots/pans and I see scratches. For me it's a health concern. I've asked dh not to use the metal, but I think he does it anyway and doesn't intentionally scratch. This is why I no longer use one of our rice cookers. I got a set of silicone utensils recently and we have some plastic as well so I'm not even sure if we should have the metal.

[VaKim]

I'm one who cars about the glass and does think it can be a sign of disrespect. (I actually don't care about the glass, per se.) Anyway, for me, it is about respect.

 

My dh is a mess. Looking at him, you wouldn't think it but he is. He just leaves things where they lie. If he puts a paper down on the kitchen counter, it would stay there for 6-8 months. He does this with everything. He just doesn't care or see it. He's probably ADHD, as well, and cares nothing about the details. That's fine. Frustrating at times, but fine. It just went to extraordinary degrees because it was everything. He would eat a snack, and he left the mess for me. He mowed the lawn. Left the mower in the middle of the yard. Painted a room. Left the paint tray in the floor.

 

However, because I'm not the nagging type, I ended up cleaning up all his messes. I cleaned the paint tray and put the mower up. (This wasn't a time issue. The mower sat in the yard for well over a week once because I wanted to see what he would do.) I spent my mornings picking up his dirty clothes off he floor, his dirty dishes off the table (midnight snack), etc. I spent more time out of my day cleaning up after him than cleaning up after me. It got really old really quick. I felt like his maid. Finally, I said something. I explained how I didn't want to spend my time picking up after him, that my time was valuable, too. He had never thought about it that way I guess. So, he started picking up after himself more. I didn't nag or throw fits. I didn't and don't expect perfection.

I guess I just feel like leaving messes lying around with the expectation that someone else will take care of things for you is disrespectful. I was taught that part of doing something was cleaning up that something when you were done. I couldn't imagine leaving my mess for someone else.

Are you married to my DH? I have tried the thing of waiting to give him time to put things away, because whenever I tell him about anything, he says he was gonna do it. We have actually had 2 riding mowers ruined because he would just leave them out in the middle of the yard all year and they got snowed on and rained on and chewed on by the dogs. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Are you married to my DH? I have tried the thing of waiting to give him time to put things away, because whenever I tell him about anything, he says he was gonna do it. We have actually had 2 riding mowers ruined because he would just leave them out in the middle of the yard all year and they got snowed on and rained on and chewed on by the dogs. 

 

This is me, TBH. I don't ever expect anyone to clean up my messes--I just always plan to get back to them and finish, but by then my brain has moved on to the next thing. I also can't seem to close things effectively. I can't tell you how many times I've hit my head on the same cabinet door while cooking. We have gerbils in cages, and I've left the cage doors open repeatedly! I do think it's an ADHD thing, but I think it also has to do with having way too many balls in the air--HSing, working for pay, management of the entire house, gardening, overseeing pet care (grrr!), my health issues, DD's health issues, a massive budget crunch that has me couponing and cooking all food at home these days...oh, and I'm also supposed to make time for exercise and self-care like meditation. 

 

I can totally identfy with the DHs in these stories though *sigh* And that's why I say I know my DH overlooks plenty on my account. 

 

ETA: I would never leave expensive equipment out long enough for it to get ruined. We're too broke for that! My gardening gloves and cheaper gardening tools are a different story, though  :willy_nilly:

Edited January 24, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[8circles]

But again, this is not the same scenario as we have in the articles.

 

I'm one who cars about the glass and does think it can be a sign of disrespect. (I actually don't care about the glass, per se.) Anyway, for me, it is about respect.

 

My dh is a mess. Looking at him, you wouldn't think it but he is. He just leaves things where they lie. If he puts a paper down on the kitchen counter, it would stay there for 6-8 months. He does this with everything. He just doesn't care or see it. He's probably ADHD, as well, and cares nothing about the details. That's fine. Frustrating at times, but fine. It just went to extraordinary degrees because it was everything. He would eat a snack, and he left the mess for me. He mowed the lawn. Left the mower in the middle of the yard. Painted a room. Left the paint tray in the floor.

 

However, because I'm not the nagging type, I ended up cleaning up all his messes. I cleaned the paint tray and put the mower up. (This wasn't a time issue. The mower sat in the yard for well over a week once because I wanted to see what he would do.) I spent my mornings picking up his dirty clothes off he floor, his dirty dishes off the table (midnight snack), etc. I spent more time out of my day cleaning up after him than cleaning up after me. It got really old really quick. I felt like his maid. Finally, I said something. I explained how I didn't want to spend my time picking up after him, that my time was valuable, too. He had never thought about it that way I guess. So, he started picking up after himself more. I didn't nag or throw fits. I didn't and don't expect perfection.

I guess I just feel like leaving messes lying around with the expectation that someone else will take care of things for you is disrespectful. I was taught that part of doing something was cleaning up that something when you were done. I couldn't imagine leaving my mess for someone else.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I never lived with my spouse prior to getting married.  I wouldn't really consider that ideal, but there just was no way to do that.  It made me nervous.  How can a person get to know certain things otherwise?

 

Luckily it turned out fine.

 

The thing is that people's habits do change over time, for better or worse. And having kids means all bets are off! DH is pretty much the same as he was before kids, I think, but I know I've changed drastically because my roles in this family have changed drastically. So there's no way to really know anyway. When we got married, DH wanted "as many kids as the Lord would bless us with." I wanted one. After we had the first one, I wanted 10 more. He wanted a couple more. After we had the second, I was like, "Maaaaybe one more" and DH was all, "Two is good, we're DONE!"

 

You just never know  :tongue_smilie:

[MaeFlowers]

This is me, TBH. I don't ever expect anyone to clean up my messes--I just always plan to get back to them and finish, but by then my brain has moved on to the next thing. I also can't seem to close things effectively. I can't tell you how many times I've hit my head on the same cabinet door while cooking. We have gerbils in cages, and I've left the cage doors open repeatedly! I do think it's an ADHD thing, but I think it also has to do with having way too many balls in the air--HSing, working for pay, management of the entire house, gardening, overseeing pet care (grrr!), my health issues, DD's health issues, a massive budget crunch that has me couponing and cooking all food at home these days...oh, and I'm also supposed to make time for exercise and self-care like meditation.

 

I can totally identfy with the DHs in these stories though *sigh* And that's why I say I know my DH overlooks plenty on my account.

 

ETA: I would never leave expensive equipment out long enough for it to get ruined. We're too broke for that! My gardening gloves and cheaper gardening tools are a different story, though :willy_nilly:

I don't know that it was intentional in that he expected me to pick things up. Then again, I don't know that he had any intention of putting things up either. I think, like you, his brain just moves on. I've seen him try so many things to get organized and nothing has really worked, yet. It's not his nature and his job isn't one that really allows you to be organized. I've have to become more flexible because of him and ds who is the same. It's made me more flexible which is a positive thing. We've tried to meet each other in the middle.

 

I still really, really want the dirty clothes in the hamper, though. That's my glass, I guess.

[8circles]

I don't know that it was intentional in that he expected me to pick things up. Then again, I don't know that he had any intention of putting things up either. I think, like you, his brain just moves on. I've seen him try so many things to get organized and nothing has really worked, yet. It's not his nature and his job isn't one that really allows you to be organized. I've have to become more flexible because of him and ds who is the same. It's made me more flexible which is a positive thing. We've tried to meet each other in the middle.

 

I still really, really want the dirty clothes in the hamper, though. That's my glass, I guess.

See, this is what I don't get. If you understand this about him, how could you also think it's disrespectful?

[heartlikealion]

See, this is what I don't get. If you understand this about him, how could you also think it's disrespectful?

 

Maybe because people want others to modify behavior to please those close to them? Or even those they just interact with a lot? Or... something like that.

 

I have time management issues. It takes a lot of work for me to be on time. If I am late and someone knows I'm chronically late, they still might consider it disrespectful. Because, well, I'm infringing on their time and should just get my act together lol.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The thing is that people's habits do change over time, for better or worse. And having kids means all bets are off! DH is pretty much the same as he was before kids, I think, but I know I've changed drastically because my roles in this family have changed drastically. So there's no way to really know anyway. When we got married, DH wanted "as many kids as the Lord would bless us with." I wanted one. After we had the first one, I wanted 10 more. He wanted a couple more. After we had the second, I was like, "Maaaaybe one more" and DH was all, "Two is good, we're DONE!"

 

You just never know  :tongue_smilie:

 

See I don't know.  I really think that at the core people don't tend to change much.  Yes, maybe some people put their best foot forward in the beginning, but if one is sloppy they will likely always be sloppy or have to work very very hard not to be. 

I haven't changed in that department.  The only change is I now have to clean up after other people.  So sloppy person now is the house keeper.  You can imagine what that is like.  LOL

 

If my husband cared deeply about this stuff, that would be a major problem.  I wouldn't have known if he cared deeply about it prior to marrying him. 

[marbel]

See, this is what I don't get. If you understand this about him, how could you also think it's disrespectful?

Yeah, I don't get it either. 

 

This is what I mean when I talk about knowing the person and acknowledging the problem.  Once you know the person is doing the best they can, well, what else can they do?  

 

I used to have a friend whose husband was always doing stuff around the house.  If she mused that it was getting to be time to pain a room, he'd be on the way to Lowe's to get paint.  My husband is not like that.  I used to be annoyed about that.  But my husband has other qualities that hers did not have or did not appear to have.  I wasn't married to her husband.  She used to sometimes say that it bothered her that he couldn't just be still, ever.  He always had to be doing. What we both wanted was a mix of each husband.  But, oh well! 

 

Both couples are still happily married, though I'm sure both of us still have those moments...

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe because people want others to modify behavior to please those close to them? Or even those they just interact with a lot? Or... something like that.

 

I have time management issues. It takes a lot of work for me to be on time. If I am late and someone knows I'm chronically late, they still might consider it disrespectful. Because, well, I'm infringing on their time and should just get my act together lol.

 

And for some that's not doable.  Or at least not doable without being miserable all of the time.

 

Not only would it be difficult for me to change my behavior, I don't think I should have to because I don't think it is a problem.  And I could not be with someone who had a major problem with it.

 

I am willing to compromise, but I'm not willing to pretend to be someone I am not.  But this was one thing I laid out there when I met my now husband.  I didn't put my best foot forward to any sort of extreme.  It was like this is me as I am...either you like that or you do not.  And that is another area I think people make mistakes.  They go hog wild trying to impress someone they like.  So much so they can't maintain that for the long term. 

[katilac]

I remember this blog sort of.  He writes from a position of pain and it is brave from that vantage point.  His analyses are superficially plausible (except his definition of sexiness.  I know what sexiness is, and what he describes isn't it) but the greater picture is that he was really mean to her and said horrible things.  

 

I haven't read any of his other posts but just the one in question made me think he has deeper problems, mostly due to his 'example' response, which I believe starts off with 'eat sh*t, wife!' and just raves from there. Anger issues much? 

 

 Yes, it's not meant to be what he actually said, but I think it's very telling. That's not where my mind would go, even in a purposefully exaggerated example. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

See I don't know.  I really think that at the core people don't tend to change much.  Yes, maybe some people put their best foot forward in the beginning, but if one is sloppy they will likely always be sloppy or have to work very very hard not to be. 

I haven't changed in that department.  The only change is I now have to clean up after other people.  So sloppy person now is the house keeper.  You can imagine what that is like.  LOL

 

If my husband cared deeply about this stuff, that would be a major problem.  I wouldn't have known if he cared deeply about it prior to marrying him. 

 

Oh, I don't have to imagine it--I live it :lol: But I would say that neither DH nor I anticipated just how disorganized I would get when I was suddenly juggling a household and 3.5 humans' worth of responsibility rather than just responsibility for myself. And before we had kids of our, I thought of DH as a guy who adored babies and children and would always be stepping up to hold/feed/change diapers. And he did with our kids too, but that didn't translate to taking the kids off my hands for outings or family visits or to birthday parties or even for an occasional errand run so I could catch a break, and I didn't anticipate that. KWIM?

 

Even though you think you know what you know, some things don't necessarily make themselves apparent, or some things that weren't a problem on a small scale become magnified in unexpected ways, or some things that weren't a problem early on become intensely irritating when they're set among the environment of a million other frustrations. I have nothing at all against living together--I lived with several guys prior to marrying my DH. But I can say that living together didn't necessarily prepare me for the frustrations we have 15 years on in our marriage. 

 

See, this is what I don't get. If you understand this about him, how could you also think it's disrespectful?

 

Because even though it's difficult, people CAN change their habits when the outcome is important to them. DH recently made it known to me that he wants our bedroom closet doors closed at night. In our mess of a bedroom, where all the doors are open all day long, suddenly he wants the bedroom doors closed at night. I never close my closet. My garbage can is in there, I'm constantly in and out for shoes and laundry, etc. So I resisted, he made a strong point, and guess what I started doing? I started closing my closet door at night. 

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have a problem closing things. I literally don't even SEE that they're open until there's some kind of consequence. But now, when I go into my room at night to get my robe and PJs, I close my closet door before I leave the room. Because it matters to DH. 

 

I don't think MaeFlowers was saying that she wants her DH to do a 180 and be a total neat freak. But I bet that if her DH registered one or two of her needs and started working on them, it would go a LONG way toward marital goodwill. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[maize]

Yeah, if I leave something out (yep, the lawnmower, almost every time I use it) it's not because I expect someone else to put it away. I got interrupted, I was planning to come back, I went to pull some weeds or feed the cat or play frisbee with the kids. It was out all week? I didn't notice, and if I did notice it didn't strike me as urgent.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Yeah, if I leave something out (yep, the lawnmower, almost every time I use it) it's not because I expect someone else to put it away. I got interrupted, I was planning to come back, I went to pull some weeds or feed the cat or play frisbee with the kids. It was out all week? I didn't notice, and if I did notice it didn't strike me as urgent.

 

Have you ever seen the "If you give a mom a muffin" thing? I've never identified so much with anything in my life.

[heartlikealion]

And for some that's not doable.  Or at least not doable without being miserable all of the time.

 

Not only would it be difficult for me to change my behavior, I don't think I should have to because I don't think it is a problem.  And I could not be with someone who had a major problem with it.

 

I am willing to compromise, but I'm not willing to pretend to be someone I am not.  But this was one thing I laid out there when I met my now husband.  I didn't put my best foot forward to any sort of extreme.  It was like this is me as I am...either you like that or you do not.  And that is another area I think people make mistakes.  They go hog wild trying to impress someone they like.  So much so they can't maintain that for the long term. 

 

It's probably one of those things you have to want to change. I want to modify my time management issues. I feel so much more relaxed if I leave on time and have everything organized.