luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Please don't overthink - just answer with your first thought. Edited January 6, 2016 by luuknam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 FWIW, the two books were: Science in Ancient Mesopotamia by Carol Moss and The History of the Ancient World by Susan Wise Bauer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I said other - my first thought was that it was the wheat - as it would be in British English. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I voted Einkorn. As I recall, that was the first cultivated grain and the ancestor of modern wheat. Isn't maize native in central/south America? ETA: I don't know either of the mentioned books. But we covered Mesopotamia when I was in 5th grade in school, in 1979. Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Must be the British meaning of 'corn' as a generic term for grain. Maize is from the Americas... from your list I'd guess oats, but since I'm blanking on what they actually grew, I could also think barley - or wheat, but didn't that come later or from elsewhere? Just wasn't maize or a relative! What the heck is 'einkorn'? Never heard of that... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 I said other - my first thought was that it was the wheat - as it would be in British English. Okay. I really don't know what the correct answer is. Both books are by American authors. With the first book I thought they maybe meant einkorn (an ancient form of wheat iirc), but then between the first and second book I heard someone say that in Scotland, if you ask for corn they'll give you oats. Regardless, it was pretty odd and confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I voted Einkorn. As I recall, that was the first cultivated grain and the ancestor of modern wheat. Aha. I knew it meant 'one grain' in German, but didn't remember it as an English word for an ancestor of wheat... Isn't maize native in central/south America? Central America Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 Isn't maize native in central/south America? ETA: I don't know either of the mentioned books. Yes, maize is from the Americas so didn't get to the middle east until after the Columbian exchange, afaik. Science in Ancient Mesopotamia is a 5th grade or so level book about, well, science in ancient mesopotamia. The History of the Ancient World is a grown-up book about the history of the ancient world by a well-known author (SWB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Yes, maize is from the Americas so didn't get to the middle east until after the Columbian exchange, afaik. Science in Ancient Mesopotamia is a 5th grade or so level book about, well, science in ancient mesopotamia. The History of the Ancient World is a grown-up book about the history of the ancient world by a well-known author (SWB). Why don't you just PM SWB and ask her? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Why don't you just PM SWB and ask her? Somehow I didn't realize it was possible to PM her. I'm just surprised that two books, both by American authors, would both talk about the ancient mesopotamians growing corn. I imagine that most people would misinterpret that. ETA: I did just PM her. Edited December 30, 2015 by luuknam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I'm just surprised that two books, both by American authors, would both talk about the ancient mesopotamians growing corn. I imagine that most people would misinterpret that. Really? I read "corn" in its meaning as a synonym for "grain". I would think most people would know that it cannot refer to what Americans call "corn", i.e. maize. No way the Mesopotamians could have had that - no trade with the Americas yet. Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I don't recall the History of the Ancient World saying corn. I believe it said wheat and then barley, because the soil got saltier and barley is more tolerant. In the US, corn means corn, like corn on the cob yellow corn. I didn't know it meant other things other places. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I think that's confusing terminology for an American audience. Most Americans don't know "corn" can mean anything but "maize." I know that... but the way I know it was reading statements like that in history books, getting confused, and seeking out a clarification. So now, years down the road, I know. But I think to 90% or more of Americans that would be misleading. My understanding is that Brits and other English speakers may use the broader definition more often. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Also, I had no idea what einkorn was. I had to look it up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 Really? I read "corn" in its meaning as a synonym for "grain". I would think most people would know that it cannot refer to what Americans call "corn", i.e. maize. No way the Mesopotamians could have had that - no trade with the Americas yet. Well, given that 'maize' currently has 38% of the vote here, and I expect that the people here are better educated than the average American, I think you're overestimating the average person. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I don't recall the History of the Ancient World saying corn. I believe it said wheat and then barley, because the soil got saltier and barley is more tolerant. It says 'cornfields' in chapter 3, and 'corn-growing' in chapter 41 (not that I'm at chapter 41 yet). ETA: I think it also mentioned barley, and maybe wheat, but mentioning those doesn't automatically mean people can't get confused since you can grow many kinds of grain in one society. Edited December 30, 2015 by luuknam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I voted Einkorn, because corn/maize was from the Americas. I can't imagine why corn would be the term used for Mesopotamian grains in any history book. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 actually, if it had not been multiple choice, I would probably have guessed emmer, not einkorn. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I'm relatively well-educated. I had no idea corn could mean anything other than corn as in corn on the cob. Learn something new every day! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I can't imagine why corn would be the term used for Mesopotamian grains in any history book. Because corn means grain (and the two words are cognates, in fact). Consider corned beef. Is that made with yellow corn? No, it's made with corns (grains) of salt. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Both books are by American authors. Are they? I looked up the book and found that Science in Ancient Mesopotamia was originally published by Franklin Watts, which is a British publisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Synonym for grain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenneinCA Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I would be very confused. I know that maize/corn was native to South America and very unlikely to be in ancient Mesopotamia. But it would not occur to me that corn is a generic term for anything. For me corn is corn and wheat is wheat and the two are not interchangeable. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Not maize I know, could be einkorn, maybe barley or other grain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 actually, if it had not been multiple choice, I would probably have guessed emmer, not einkorn. There was the 'other' option. Are they? I looked up the book and found that Science in Ancient Mesopotamia was originally published by Franklin Watts, which is a British publisher The last page of the book (using the "look inside" feature on Amazon, since I returned the book to the library a while ago), says she's got a BA and an MS from the University of Minnesota and lives in St. Paul. I can't find where she's originally from though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Really? I read "corn" in its meaning as a synonym for "grain". I would think most people would know that it cannot refer to what Americans call "corn", i.e. maize. No way the Mesopotamians could have had that - no trade with the Americas yet. This is definitely the older and more generic meaning of the word corn, also the more international one. I have however seen Americans misinterpret it, as in a children's Bible we used to have that shows Joseph in Egypt's dream of seven fat/seven lean ears of corn; the illustrations are of (really ugly and inaccurate) stalks of maize. Edited December 30, 2015 by maize 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I have however seen Americans misinterpret it, as in a children's Bible we used to have that shows Joseph in Egypt's dream of seven fat/seven lean ears of corn; the illustrations are of (really ugly and inaccurate) stalks of maize. Oh, I remember... didn't we have a thread about that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 actually, if it had not been multiple choice, I would probably have guessed emmer, not einkorn. I would have just said wheat, asking for the specific variety seems too detailed for something like this. Wheat and barley were both grown in Mesopotamia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Oh, I remember... didn't we have a thread about that? Yes, I really can't just ignore that sort of thing ;) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I would have just said wheat, asking for the specific variety seems too detailed for something like this. Wheat and barley were both grown in Mesopotamia. The only reason I remembered these two varieties (einkorn and emmer) was because they were specifically mentioned when we covered Ancient Mesopotamia in school. I marvel that I remember material from 35 years ago. They must have taught us well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarasue7272 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I chose maize because that was the only word related to corn. I also thought corn, Mesopotamia, what? As those don't go together. I forgot that corn can mean any grain, I have read that before. I would think very very few Americans know that corn can refer to any grain historically and in other countries, since it means only corn on the cob here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Well, I have heard of emmer. Was it like a battle of the grains and emmer won? #teamemmer vs. #teameinkorn ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I think I read about einkorn and emmer in Guns, Germs and Steel. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I chose maize because that was the only word related to corn. I also thought corn, Mesopotamia, what? As those don't go together. I forgot that corn can mean any grain, I have read that before. I would think very very few Americans know that corn can refer to any grain historically and in other countries, since it means only corn on the cob here. This. I'm fairly well educated and well read. I truly didn't know corn was generic for gain. Here grain is generic for grain. And corn is a specific kind of grain. Maybe, if more Americans knew corn really meant grain, more Americans would realize corn isn't a vegetable. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I'm wondering SWB just took the word corn from whatever sources she was using at the time and didn't think much about it? It is definitely not the word I would use for generic grain in a book with a significant American audience. Edited December 30, 2015 by maize 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Yes,when we read "corn" in those books I had to conclude that it meant something other than corn on the cob because I knew corn was native to the Americas and couldn't have been in Mesopotamia but I had no idea that it's regularly used to mean "grains" in other parts of the world these days. I've never heard of einkorn. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) , more Americans would realize corn isn't a vegetable. yes. Botanically, fresh corn kernels are fruit. Corn isn't a vegetable because vegetables are the parts of plants that do not contain the seed bearing structures. http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-blog/fruit-vegetable-difference/bgp-20056141 Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Because corn means grain (and the two words are cognates, in fact). Consider corned beef. Is that made with yellow corn? No, it's made with corns (grains) of salt. Whoa, I didn't know that's where the term "corned beef" came from. As for the poll, I voted other since I have no clue what grains were grown then and there. I assumed "corn" meant "grain", though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah0000 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 So are green beans not vegetables? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) If they grew corn, they ate corn. :) I thought in English corn and maize were synonyms. Maybe that is just in American English. I know what Einkorn is but that is not corn. That is wheat. They share a common [edit: etymological] root. Oats are not corn either. Edited December 30, 2015 by Tsuga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 For reference, what Americans call 'corn', Brits call 'sweetcorn'. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Cornflakes ;) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) If they grew corn, they ate corn. :) I thought in English corn and maize were synonyms. Maybe that is just in American English. I know what Einkorn is but that is not corn. That is wheat. They share a common [edit: etymological] root. Oats are not corn either. Yes - only in American English. Merriam Webster's second definition gives 'corn' to mean whatever is the dominant grain crop in an area, including oats in Scotland: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corn Interestingly, Merriam Webster seems to imply that Scotland is not part of Britain.... Edited December 30, 2015 by Laura Corin 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 So are green beans not vegetables? No, botanically, they are fruit :-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I just noticed that Maize is following this topic..... 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I voted einkorn. I knew it could not be corn or maize, and I didn't think oats would grow well in that climate, so it was an elimination choice really. I did not think of the possibility of corn being a general term, though now that it has been mentioned I recall reading that before. But that would be a very uncommon way to use it in an American text I think, especially one for children, without explaining that was what it meant. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 No, botanically, they are fruit :-) Correct. As are peas, squash, pumpkins, peppers, eggplant... in fact, a large number of vegetables are botanically fruit - anything that starts with a flower and contains seeds. This is why the whole "the tomato is a fruit" thing annoys me. Yeah, but it's also a vegetable. There are two meanings for fruit, one botanical, one the everyday use that's some kind of edible plant part that's sweet vs. savory. Rhubarb, of course is not botanically a fruit even though we use it like one. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 So are green beans not vegetables? Culinarily* speaking, yes, they are - along with tomatoes, bell peppers, and avocados. Botanically, those are all fruits, as they are the ripened ovaries of plants. (Meanwhile, apples and strawberries and figs are not true fruits but "accessory fruits", because the fruity part is NOT the ripened ovary of the plant. Go figure.) * Look, it's a word. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I just noticed that Maize is following this topic..... Are you trying to make a pun here? Because if so, that's really corny. This is why the whole "the tomato is a fruit" thing annoys me. They're berries, aren't they? Hey, you know how you turn a tomato into another fruit? It's easy. Just throw it up in the air, and it comes down squash! Whoa, I didn't know that's where the term "corned beef" came from. Peppercorns too. They're corns (grains) of pepper. Which is a bit of an odd usage, but there you go. Edited December 30, 2015 by Tanaqui 9 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikslo Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 This thread is really interesting. I'm all ears. 17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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