What Consequence for This Behavior?

[DragonFaerie]

Really? The kid is 11. Eleven. Are boys who are eleven really not supposed to frown upon clothes?

 

Bizarre.

 

That's not what I said.  He can certainly be disappointed by receiving clothes.  I have a problem with kids having the gall to demand that someone not give them some particular thing.  To me, kids ought to appreciate the fact that they will receive gifts for Christmas, not dictate what those gifts should or should not be.

[Catwoman]

That's not what I said. He can certainly be disappointed by receiving clothes. I have a problem with kids having the gall to demand that someone not give them some particular thing. To me, kids ought to appreciate the fact that they will receive gifts for Christmas, not dictate what those gifts should or should not be.

Wasn't it just that he had noted on his Christmas list that he didn't want clothes?

 

I don't know about you, but when I ask my ds for his Christmas list, I'm happy if he gives me some hints about things he doesn't want, because sometimes I see things that I think would be great, but then I hint around a little and find out I was way off the mark and he doesn't want them at all.

[purplejackmama]

That's not what I said. He can certainly be disappointed by receiving clothes. I have a problem with kids having the gall to demand that someone not give them some particular thing. To me, kids ought to appreciate the fact that they will receive gifts for Christmas, not dictate what those gifts should or should not be.

Ok I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see gift making list as demands. But, it's interesting that others (brides, moms to be) are encouraged to register for wanted items. I guess kids are exempt from that?

[DragonFaerie]

Wasn't it just that he had noted on his Christmas list that he didn't want clothes?

 

I don't know about you, but when I ask my ds for his Christmas list, I'm happy if he gives me some hints about things he doesn't want, because sometimes I see things that I think would be great, but then I hint around a little and find out I was way off the mark and he doesn't want them at all.

 

I don't know how the opinion on clothing gifts was originally conveyed.  I guess you're right in that the way that was done makes a difference, too.  I guess the whole scenario really depends on attitude from all sides.  Did the child demand to not be given clothes?  Or did he mention in casual conversation that he's got enough shirts to last him a good long time?  Did Mom completely ignore the fact that DS had more than enough shirts and buy him another one anyway?  Or was Mom getting him a cool shirt that she really thought he'd like?  Attitude and intention has a lot to do with the whole scenario, I think.  In response to the OP, though, I would not "punish" the behavior.  I'd certainly call him out on it, as I said before, but that would be it.

[bettyandbob]

That's not what I said. He can certainly be disappointed by receiving clothes. I have a problem with kids having the gall to demand that someone not give them some particular thing. To me, kids ought to appreciate the fact that they will receive gifts for Christmas, not dictate what those gifts should or should not be.

Again, it was A Christmas wishlist. Are kids not allowed to put their wishes down. One of his wishes was not clothes. Why can't that be a wish. I don't know anyone who gets everything on their list. "Not clothes" was one of the things the op's ds didn't get. I presume he got some wishes too.

 

Wish list = wishes not commands

[DragonFaerie]

Ok I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see gift making list as demands. But, it's interesting that others (brides, moms to be) are encouraged to register for wanted items. I guess kids are exempt from that?

 

Again, not what I said.  I have no problem with Christmas lists.  Both of my kids make Christmas lists (sometimes even birthday lists, too).  I think they're great as it helps me know what my kids would really like.  But neither of my kids have ever tried to dictate what I CANNOT buy for them.  Ever.

[Upennmama]

It's neither silly nor a straw man. You've drawn a line, so presumably you appreciate the value in judgement in some measure. I'm asking why that judgement must be reserved when it comes to holding the adult accountable. That's beyond accountability for reasons that are not based on logic or reason, but based on power and control.

 

Kindness and gentility aren't a matter of faith, as clearly these virtues are valued by those who don't share your faith, and those who do are statistically no different. Assuming you're a xian, you likely deviate measurably from the bible in these matters as well (assuming you don't advocate for slavery, genocide, or human trafficking).

 

But kindness and gentility are reserved under certain circumstances when it comes to the feelings of a child, circumstances we don't refer to when dealing with other adults. I find that curious. The OP mentioned she rolled her eyes when people suggested she was disrespectful. There seems to be a blind spot when it comes to kindness and gentility when it comes to kids who fail to be convenient. I find that rather hypocritical when the argument is in teaching the value of respect.

I am confident that every child I know knows the difference between not being a brat when getting a bad gift and allowing an adult to modest them. It's a very clear line. One if things is wrong, evil, sinful, and one is at worst rude. A child being rude is not resisting evil or stopping something bad from happening, they are just being rude. I don't think my faith is the only one which teaches respect, I am just speaking to my motivation. In my worldview, based on my faith, one should be kind, even to those who persecute or hate us. Good conduct is not dependent on my state of mind, my appetite, or my feelings. Of course there are respectful and appropriate ways to confront authority figures, and my kids know that. Believe me, none have a problem doing so!

[purplejackmama]

Again, not what I said. I have no problem with Christmas lists. Both of my kids make Christmas lists (sometimes even birthday lists, too). I think they're great as it helps me know what my kids would really like. But neither of my kids have ever tried to dictate what I CANNOT buy for them. Ever.

So just out of curiosity, an 11 year old boy would NOT be allowed to tell you, "please no Barbie dolls?"

[Starr]

You knew he didn't want clothing. I probably would have either given him the shirt another time or a heads up as he was opening the shirt.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Am I the only one that thinks the child telling his parent what NOT to buy him was the original problem?  If one of my kids told me not to buy them this or that, I'd probably respond that I would feel free to not buy them anything if that was their attitude.  Now, let me clarify that a bit.  If I asked DS, "what do you think about.....for Christmas" and he said, "No, I don't really like......," then it would be wrong of me to go out and buy it anyway.  But I would be rather put out if one of my kids tried to dictate what I could NOT buy him/her.  That seems pretty demanding and ungracious to me.

 

I don't see the big deal.  I think lots of 11 year old boys wouldn't be thrilled with clothing.  That is a gift to the parent. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

That's not what I said.  He can certainly be disappointed by receiving clothes.  I have a problem with kids having the gall to demand that someone not give them some particular thing.  To me, kids ought to appreciate the fact that they will receive gifts for Christmas, not dictate what those gifts should or should not be.

 

Then don't have lists in your family.  The OP's  family obviously does have lists.  The whole point of lists is to point gift givers to gifts that someone would like.  Even if you get a gift in the same vein as something on the list and not the item itself, that would be ok because you are following the general idea of the list providing insight into what someone would like.  But if someone tells you that a certain category would not be welcome, it seems strange to specifically go out and get something in that category unless you specifically like getting things that would be disappointing to others. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It feels somewhat like setting the kid up for failure. 

 

 

[marbel]

That's definitely an unacceptable behavior in my opinion and yes, I do expect my children to have gratitude for gifts, even if it's not exactly what they wanted. I wouldn't punish them but they would get a talking to at some point (probably after gifts were opened and I could pull them aside to talk to them alone) about how gift lists are not a list of demands and how people spend their time and money getting them something they will like and find useful and that deserves some thankfulness on their part. 11 is waaay too old to be saying "Ugh, clothes."

 

<snip>

 

You can't make them have gratitude.  You can train a child to show gratitude (which I believe the OP said her son usually does) but what they feel can't be managed by anyone else, even parents.

[zoobie]

Ok I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see gift making list as demands. But, it's interesting that others (brides, moms to be) are encouraged to register for wanted items. I guess kids are exempt from that?

My kids make funny Santa lists. My 10 yo DS wrote "Nerf" about 1000 times and things like no vegetables and no underwear and no coal and anything but Barbie. (With drawings with a red circle and line through it.) He's not demanding anything. It's a silly list. Should I discipline him by buying him broccoli and a Barbie dream house?

[purplejackmama]

My kids make funny Santa lists. My 10 yo DS wrote "Nerf" about 1000 times and things like no vegetables and no underwear and no coal and anything but Barbie. (With drawings with a red circle and line through it.) He's not demanding anything. It's a silly list. Should I discipline him by buying him broccoli and a Barbie dream house?

Exactly. I just don't understand this type of parenting. Why would want to get your kid something they don't like? Weird. Oh well. Different strokes for different folks.

 

My kids will gladly give me a list and I will happily try to find the things they want. Win/win.

[zoobie]

Again, not what I said. I have no problem with Christmas lists. Both of my kids make Christmas lists (sometimes even birthday lists, too). I think they're great as it helps me know what my kids would really like. But neither of my kids have ever tried to dictate what I CANNOT buy for them. Ever.

You've never asked someone not to buy you something? My parents have asked us for kid gift ideas for younger ones. I've said we have too many stuffed animals and Duplos, but child would love books, particularly [insert titles here]. Other friends of mine have asked their parents not to buy Barbies or toy guns for personal reasons. It's not a demand. It's part of a family conversation.

 

OP's child didn't take hostages and demand gifts in exchange. He made a simple, age appropriate request on a Christmas list.

[DragonFaerie]

Then don't have lists in your family.  The OP's  family obviously does have lists.  The whole point of lists is to point gift givers to gifts that someone would like.  Even if you get a gift in the same vein as something on the list and not the item itself, that would be ok because you are following the general idea of the list providing insight into what someone would like.  But if someone tells you that a certain category would not be welcome, it seems strange to specifically go out and get something in that category unless you specifically like getting things that would be disappointing to others. 

 

 

I am not the OP.  I don't have any problem with lists.  This situation does not apply to me nor mine.  *sigh*

[DragonFaerie]

You've never asked someone not to buy you something? My parents have asked us for kid gift ideas for younger ones. I've said we have too many stuffed animals and Duplos, but child would love books, particularly [insert titles here]. Other friends of mine have asked their parents not to buy Barbies or toy guns for personal reasons. It's not a demand. It's part of a family conversation.

 

OP's child didn't take hostages and demand gifts in exchange. He made a simple, age appropriate request on a Christmas list.

 

Your example is adults discussing gifts for children, which is entirely different.

[albeto.]

I am confident that every child I know knows the difference between not being a brat when getting a bad gift and allowing an adult to modest them. It's a very clear line. One if things is wrong, evil, sinful, and one is at worst rude. A child being rude is not resisting evil or stopping something bad from happening, they are just being rude. I don't think my faith is the only one which teaches respect, I am just speaking to my motivation. In my worldview, based on my faith, one should be kind, even to those who persecute or hate us. Good conduct is not dependent on my state of mind, my appetite, or my feelings. Of course there are respectful and appropriate ways to confront authority figures, and my kids know that. Believe me, none have a problem doing so!

 

Perhaps you're confusing a lack of public discipline with approval. I can't recall any post that suggested the child's behavior was admirable and ought to be repeated. The contention is in setting up the scenario, and then punishing for a natural response - expression of disappointment.

 

The further possibility is that the child was judged (if not by the OP, then by others here) for a thought-crime - lack of gratitude. That's outrageous to me. So much for freedom to think what one wants.

 

That you call a public, socially inappropriate expression of disappointment "rude" is a judgment of the behavior. Where I differ with you is not in the inappropriateness of the behavior, but in the idea that only a child's behavior can be judged, and never the adults. I disagree with the idea, and challenge it. The OP's behavior ought to be judged in the same way her child's behavior was judged - in context, depending upon intent, depending on outcome, depending on known alternatives, depending on maturity, and other variables that are taken into consideration whenever behavior is judged. Why are adults held above accountability? What makes adults impervious to judgement when they are involved with children? The hypocrisy in this is offensive to me. 

 

Your comment about your faith being your motivator is irrelevant. It's a useless comment because it can't be supported in any way as it all rests on your personal assurances and no objective information from which to draw. You might as well appeal to your belief in Blardeck to provide adequate hooledorks. Judging the behavior doesn't need to appeal to any beliefs. We can judge it using actual information.

 

In any case, if one should be kind, even to those who persecute or hate you (where does this even come from?), then why not to a child? Why not be kind enough to a child to not subject him to public shame for an act of immaturity? Why not be kind enough to discuss with him his feelings, your feelings, and remind him of the socially appropriate response, and why it's valuable, in private? 

[albeto.]

You can't make them have gratitude.  You can train a child to show gratitude (which I believe the OP said her son usually does) but what they feel can't be managed by anyone else, even parents.

 

You can condition a child to respond to their own thoughts positively and negatively. Absolutely. In another thread, we talked about this conditioning, using such examples as brushing teeth and doing homework without protest. 

 

So I disagree. You can train a child to feel gratitude. You can also train a child to feel guilt when not feeling sufficient gratitude, or perhaps more accurately, for "making" someone else feel bad. 

[purplejackmama]

Your example is adults discussing gifts for children, which is entirely different.

Right. This is what I find so bizarre, the child (the actual gift recipient) isn't allowed to have an opinion. But the adults are. Huh? Doesn't that seem a little backwards to you?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hey it wouldn't be xmas without us arguing over dumb shi*.

 

:lol:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Right. This is what I find so bizarre, the child (the actual gift recipient) isn't allowed to have an opinion. But the adults are. Huh? Doesn't that seem a little backwards to you?

 

children are supposed to be seen and not heard

 

duh

[purplejackmama]

children are supposed to be seen and not heard

 

duh

Sigh. I suppose you are right. This line of thinking is so far removed from my life I forget how many people still believe this.

[Joker]

I'd let it go.

 

I don't want my dds to live in a home which they cannot be themselves in. I honestly don't care when they say a particular gift is not something they like or want. They never do this with those outside of immediate family. I also have zero problem with them stating they don't want us to buy a certain gift. I would rather them be honest and tell me. They never do that either with those outside of immediate family.

 

Even parenting this way dds are often praised by others and teachers for their attitudes and behavior. I had one teacher call me before the holiday break to rave about oldest dd, her behavior, attitude, and work ethic. So, what we're doing is obviously working. There is more than one way to parent children and still end up with great kids/teens/adults.

[Upennmama]

I never said I wouldn't discipline a child privately! I wouldn't shame a child. I would tell h it was hurtful and rude, explain why, and as I said, probably ask him to sit out for 1 round of present opening, or take 5 minutes to calm down, apologize, etc. I would speak privately and respectfully.

[Upennmama]

Right. This is what I find so bizarre, the child (the actual gift recipient) isn't allowed to have an opinion. But the adults are. Huh? Doesn't that seem a little backwards to you?

Isn't there a difference between having an opinion and expressing it? I have many opinions all day long about people's choices, clothing, music, etc. I choose to express almost none of them, because it's rude and/or not my business. My children may hold any opinions they want, and many or most of them may be expressed in many ways. This was an inappropriate way, whether or not the OPs decision to gift the shirt was rude. If the boy was upset, I would say he should have spoken to his mom privately later. But I won't apologize for feeling that yes, children have a greater responsibility to be obedient, respectful, and deferential to adults in authority over them. That doesn't mean children should be seen and not heard, or that I don't treat mine with respect.

[Joker]

I just don't think it was rude. We have home video from when I was little and two of us did the same thing in front of parents and grandparents on Christmas morning. They all laughed! These were people, especially the grandparents, who were very big on discipline and respect but they laughed at children putting the clothes aside and expressing a tiny bit of disappointment. It just wasn't a big deal.

[purplejackmama]

Isn't there a difference between having an opinion and expressing it? I have many opinions all day long about people's choices, clothing, music, etc. I choose to express almost none of them, because it's rude and/or not my business. My children may hold any opinions they want, and many or most of them may be expressed in many ways. This was an inappropriate way, whether or not the OPs decision to gift the shirt was rude. If the boy was upset, I would say he should have spoken to his mom privately later. But I won't apologize for feeling that yes, children have a greater responsibility to be obedient, respectful, and deferential to adults in authority over them. That doesn't mean children should be seen and not heard, or that I don't treat mine with respect.

Why is it rude to express an opinion? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely trying to understand why having a preference (in this case for his OWN gift) rude?

 

What would you have the child apologize for? To whom would he apologize?

 

Why do children have a "greater responsibility to be obedient?" Are you afraid their response reflects badly on you, the parent?

 

I know you can't read tone of here, but I am genuinely interested in learning about our differing parenting styles.

[Catwoman]

I never said I wouldn't discipline a child privately! I wouldn't shame a child. I would tell h it was hurtful and rude, explain why, and as I said, probably ask him to sit out for 1 round of present opening, or take 5 minutes to calm down, apologize, etc. I would speak privately and respectfully.

Hurtful? Seriously? The kid didn't like the shirt. I'm sorry, but if a kid expressing a little disappointment with one gift is "hurtful" to his mom, I think the mom has some issues with over-sensitivity. The kid didn't scream that he hated the gift and that she was the worst mom ever; he just didn't like getting a shirt for Christmas.

 

Shouldn't a kid be allowed to be honest with his own family?

[zoobie]

Hurtful? Seriously? The kid didn't like the shirt. I'm sorry, but if a kid expressing a little disappointment with one gift is "hurtful" to his mom, I think the mom has some issues with over-sensitivity. The kid didn't scream that he hated the gift and that she was the worst mom ever; he just didn't like getting a shirt for Christmas.

 

Shouldn't a kid be allowed to be honest with his own family?

Maybe if OP handwove the fabric and sold her hair to buy the buttons... ;)

[katilac]

Again, not what I said.  I have no problem with Christmas lists.  Both of my kids make Christmas lists (sometimes even birthday lists, too).  I think they're great as it helps me know what my kids would really like.  But neither of my kids have ever tried to dictate what I CANNOT buy for them.  Ever.

 

I truly am not understanding why "I want this" is perfectly fine, but "I don't want that" is rude and entitled. 

 

I mean, I don't want to buy anyone a gift they don't want!

 

The hackles rising over a child trying to 'dictate' what cannot be bought for them puzzles me. Why is expressing desires in the negative so much worse than expressing desires in the positive? If they are allowed to describe the types of things they do want, why is it wrong to state the types of things they absolutely do not want? 

 

If an adult says, my Precious Moments collection is really getting out of control, please don't buy me any this year, is that also rude and entitled? It seems to be dictating what is bought for them just as much as the child who says, "no clothes, please." 

 

Genuine questions...

[TechWife]

Interesting.  Our family culture is such that people who are old enough to know better should expect to be left out of events if they are rude.  We don't stop doing things or having fun just because someone is having an attitude. 

 

Frankly, I was stunned by all the people who said "let it go".  Anyone I know would fall down dead with shock if an 11 year old was that rude (and I consider that pretty high up on the scale) and it was "let go".  You would immediately be labeled the permissive parents raising the rude ingrate and would probably never be invited to anything again (unless you were super close family)  for fear of what your kids would be allowed to get away with.

 

If people are uneducated enough to label children and exclude their families because they act like, well, children, then I would be grateful to be excluded from future events. That is not the kind of crowd I want to spend my time with. I would rather spend it with people that realize we are all human and every one of us makes mistakes. Additionally, I have great difficulty with people who think they know what is best for others' children. Other people have no clue what mountains any parents have climbed on any given day, week, month or year. They have no right to decide what issues/behaviors/attitudes should be addressed at any given moment. That is the parents' job, not the grandmother's, auntie's or the nosy neighbor's job. 

[Another Lynn]

I only skimmed the other replies (so rude of me!), but I would either deal with it immediately with humor (Excuse me, kiddo, I didn't hear your undying thanks, lol, what did you say?), or let it go.  I think bringing it back up later to punish it would be over the top. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hurtful? Seriously? The kid didn't like the shirt. I'm sorry, but if a kid expressing a little disappointment with one gift is "hurtful" to his mom, I think the mom has some issues with over-sensitivity. The kid didn't scream that he hated the gift and that she was the worst mom ever; he just didn't like getting a shirt for Christmas.

 

Shouldn't a kid be allowed to be honest with his own family?

 

I guess some would drop dead after what my kid said to me this morning. I guess he didn't like one of the video games I picked out (what do I know about video games).  He asked why Santa has forsaken him.  :lol:   I just laughed.  I said well did you ever actually play the game.  He said..oh..no I haven't maybe it will be good. 

Geesh

 

We are a brutally honest bunch around here.  His reactions otherwise were pretty great. 

[katilac]

 I also have zero problem with them stating they don't want us to buy a certain gift. 

 

I'm more than happy when my kids say they don't want certain things, certainly happier than I would be to spend my money and then watch the gift collect dust! 

 

They can smile and say thank you all day long, and that's a great strategy when distant relatives surprise them with odd presents, but I can't imagine a child not feeling free to tell their own parents what they DON'T want for a gift. 

[maize]

So, what we're doing is obviously working. There is more than one way to parent children and still end up with great kids/teens/adults.

I agree with this with one disclaimer: our children's attitudes and behavior may have little to do with "what we are doing"; hard as it is to accept as a parent, as best I can tell we have limited influence in the development of our children. Not no influence, but...judging the effectiveness of parenting by the way a few individual children grow up may be pretty meaningless.

 

This really isn't directed at you, more a thought sparked by the statement I quoted. I do hope that my parenting efforts are beneficial to my children, cause I sure do put a lot of time and thought into them :)

[albeto.]

I never said I wouldn't discipline a child privately! I wouldn't shame a child. I would tell h it was hurtful and rude, explain why, and as I said, probably ask him to sit out for 1 round of present opening, or take 5 minutes to calm down, apologize, etc. I would speak privately and respectfully.

 

I don't understand how one might assume from the comment that the child needs to "calm down." 

 

Isn't there a difference between having an opinion and expressing it? I have many opinions all day long about people's choices, clothing, music, etc. I choose to express almost none of them, because it's rude and/or not my business. My children may hold any opinions they want, and many or most of them may be expressed in many ways. This was an inappropriate way, whether or not the OPs decision to gift the shirt was rude. If the boy was upset, I would say he should have spoken to his mom privately later. But I won't apologize for feeling that yes, children have a greater responsibility to be obedient, respectful, and deferential to adults in authority over them. That doesn't mean children should be seen and not heard, or that I don't treat mine with respect.

 

No one is asking you to apologize, just explain your comment. Why is the onus on the child to be obedient, respectful, and deferential to adults, and why are adults exempt from courtesy, or showing respect?

 

I find the whole idea of holding authority over someone as justification to be exempt from accountability to be rather deceitful, and deferential to hypocrisy and abuse. 

[TechWife]

I'm on the fence, because when I first read this, I thought, I wouldn't give a consequence, I would have just said, shortly after the fact, something brief about having nice manners when someone gives you a gift, and that was inappropriate.  However, after reading the other responses about how mom ignored the no clothes request, that it seems normal from an 11 year old, it makes me think then maybe, (of course this is just hindsight speculation for the future) it would have been better to have said that when he wrote "no clothes" on his wish list.  I mean I sort of think that was the rude part.  Although, I don't believe any 11 yr old boy would think it was rude, and that's what we are here for, to kindly and gently lead them towards what is kind and appropriate when it comes to people's feelings and manners.

 

I would never tell my child not to tell me something, even if it was something I didn't particularly want to hear. She asked what he wanted, he told her and then mentioned something he didn't want. It sounds like healthy, open communication to me. Children need to learn that it's normal and appropriate to communicate with parents. If a child isn't allowed to tell his parents what he doesn't want for Christmas, which is a minor thing in the grand scheme of life, then why in the world would he tell them about the big problems he encounters or discuss life issues with them. Open communication is very important. This child is about to enter his teen years, a time that can be very difficult on families. Telling him it's inappropriate to express his desires to his parents is asking for a shut down in communication, IMO. 

[marbel]

Nm.  

Edited December 26, 2015 by marbel

[Upennmama]

Why is it rude to express an opinion? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely trying to understand why having a preference (in this case for his OWN gift) rude?

 

What would you have the child apologize for? To whom would he apologize?

 

Why do children have a "greater responsibility to be obedient?" Are you afraid their response reflects badly on you, the parent?

 

I know you can't read tone of here, but I am genuinely interested in learning about our differing parenting styles.

 

 

To answer:

Opinions are great. I don't think this kid was just expressing a preference is rude. Maybe you are confusing me with another poster, but I don't find making a Christmas list or making specific requests rude. My kids do so. 

I think there are sometimes ways to express opinions kindly. If I gave my kid a shirt and she didn't like it, I would expect her to thank me for it, and then later to mention that she really isn't crazy about pink, but would love to exchange it for a blue. Totally cool. My kids do this, and FTR, that's what I would expect of an adult, too. I would be even more horrified by an adult who acted the same way. I honestly don't understand why so many people are having trouble with the idea that every feeling we feel doesn't need to be immediately expressed in it's totality. I have many feelings which are rude, so I don't share them. 

 

I would ask my child to apologize to me, the person who gave him a gift. 

 

I believe parents are given authority and as authority holders, children should obey them and treat them respectfully. I also believe just as firmly that parents should love their children, protect them, treat them kindly and respectfully, and teach them well. 

 

 

 

 if a kid expressing a little disappointment with one gift is "hurtful" to his mom, I think the mom has some issues with over-sensitivity.

Yes, I agree, however I didn't mean that I would be hurt. I meant that I see it as my job to teach my kids how to treat each other and me and their dad both because it's right but also because it's good training for life. It is hurtful to people to tell them you don't like their gifts, generally, IME. Even if they got it wrong or ignored your preferences. I don't agree with the oft-expressed idea that if you treated someone rudely (EG, by ignoring their gift preference), they should treat you badly back (EG, the kid being rude about it).  WHen I got to a family party or a group gathering and bought someone a gift, I think they should thank the giver and smile and say something nice, whether they like it or not. That's my values and culture. I get to teach those to my kids. If you teach your kids differently, that's fine. 

 

 

 

Shouldn't a kid be allowed to be honest with his own family?

Sometimes. Sometimes our honest feelings about people are crappy and hurt them and need a little softening, or we need to just suck it up for kindness' sake, accept a shirt, and move on. I would want to teach my son that others' feelings are more important than his own (and I believe the same thing for myself, and for everyone else, as well, not just kids) and that it cost him nothing to be grateful. 

[Joanne]

I skipped a lot of the 4 pages.

 

My answers:

 

1) the "no clothes" on the Chrishmas wish list would be problem number one for me. That would have generated a talk/lecture with the explicit command that ALL gifts be acknowledged gratefully.

 

2) in the moment, Christmas momentum would stop, preteen would be given a chance for a do-over.

 

3) as this one played out, 11 year old would be given a talk to and gift accepting (and gift asking for) etiquette clearly spelled out.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well he said ugh clothes, tossed it aside, and then kept going.  So not like he threw a complete and utter hissy.  I think just saying hey that's not so nice would be good enough.

 

 

 

 

[TechWife]

I would correct him and ask him to maybe sit out the opening for a few moments or skip a turn. I agree that maybe the gift wasn't the best idea, however it's important for kids to learn that self-control, respect, obedience, kindness, don't depend on someone else's treatment of us. Children cannot be allowed to disrespect anyone just because they are justifiably angry, tired, hungry, etc.

 

Parents do not lack for opportunities to instill character traits in their children. Things happen on a daily basis that "help" us do that. Children need to be fed, have regular sleep and have their emotions recognized as legitimate. It is the parent's responsibility to do all of those things. It is hard to do that on special occasions and grace is a legitimate response when circumstances aren't perfect and people don't behave as they should. 

 

This really sounds like something out of a parenting book. If it is, please read books by other authors for different perspectives on parenting. Also, choose your friends wisely, because none of us can parent perfectly and none of us have perfect children. All parents fail at some point - we all let things go occasionally that should be addressed - we are human. I hope you can find one or two other mothers who are willing to parent in the "trenches" with you, recognizing that life is less than perfect. 

[TechWife]

that's a silly straw man. Respecting your parents and being kind even when angry/disappointed/hungry is an appropriate expectation, and one which will serve any adult well. Of course respect should go both ways, but I believe, based on my faith, that we should be kind and gentle,

 

Yes, it will serve an adult well. Children are still learning and should be expected to make mistakes. In fact, I think their mistakes should be welcomed by parents and others because it shows they are trying - I wouldn't want to be the kids who stops talking to his parents because they don't listen, or just acts like they respect their parents, but really resent them. We should not expect children to act like adults and we should not reject anything that is less-than-perfect behavior. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by TechWife

[Upennmama]

Parents do not lack for opportunities to instill character traits in their children. Things happen on a daily basis that "help" us do that. Children need to be fed, have regular sleep and have their emotions recognized as legitimate. It is the parent's responsibility to do all of those things. It is hard to do that on special occasions and grace is a legitimate response when circumstances aren't perfect and people don't behave as they should. 

 

This really sounds like something out of a parenting book. If it is, please read books by other authors for different perspectives on parenting. Also, choose your friends wisely, because none of us can parent perfectly and none of us have perfect children. All parents fail at some point - we all let things go occasionally that should be addressed - we are human. I hope you can find one or two other mothers who are willing to parent in the "trenches" with you, recognizing that life is less than perfect. 

This is pretty condescending, honestly. I don't get my ideas out of parenting books. I have parented 8 kids now and I'm doing okay, thanks. I don't know where you're getting the idea that I don't have friends with different perspectives or that I don't have grace. What are you talking about? 

 

Parents don't lack for opportunities, no, and when they decide that being kind, being grateful, being loving and obedient go out the window because a child is hungry or tired or it's Christmas, they teach an important lesson. How we act in the hard moments, in less than perfect circumstances, says who are a lot more than how we act on a full stomach and good night's sleep. Grace, in my book, does not mean ignoring. I don't recall saying I'd burn the kids' presents or beat him or something, do you? I mentioned relatively gentle rebuke and discussion.

 

I certainly don't think it means I don't have grace because I would ask an 11 year to try again, to wait 5 minutes to open presents, and to apologize. I'm honestly shocked at these responses, acting as though I and other posters are thought-policing evil controlling monsters because we would have some sort of redress for rudeness. No wonder so many kids are rude and thoughtless. 

 

I just asked my 14 and 11 year olds what they would think of this response and they said they would think of that kid as spoiled. I asked what it the kid told his mom he really didn't want a shirt, and they said that the boy should still just say thank you, what's the harm?

 

 

 

Yes, it will serve an adult well. Children are still learning and should be expected to make mistakes. In fact, I think their mistakes should be welcomed by parents and others because it shows they are trying - I wouldn't want to be the kids who stops talking to his parents because they don't listen, or just acts like they respect their parents, but really resent them. We should not expect children to act like adults. 

 

No, we shouldn't. And the way children go from childlike behavior to adult behavior is through discipline, in the sense of teaching. Discipline, which can mean a discussion, consequences, logical or otherwise, punishment, restitution in certain cases, etc. Many many options. My entire point is that this is normal, yes, kids are bratty sometimes, all of them, but the way we handle it teaches a lesson, either way. Great teaching opportunity. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Upennmama

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

It feels somewhat like setting the kid up for failure. 

 

And punishing them for it.

[Joker]

This is pretty condescending, honestly. I don't get my ideas out of parenting books. I have parented 8 kids now and I'm doing okay, thanks. I don't know where you're getting the idea that I don't have friends with different perspectives or that I don't have grace. What are you talking about?

 

Parents don't lack for opportunities, no, and when they decide that being kind, being grateful, being loving and obedient go out the window because a child is hungry or tired or it's Christmas, they teach an important lesson. How we act in the hard moments, in less than perfect circumstances, says who are a lot more than how we act on a full stomach and good night's sleep. Grace, in my book, does not mean ignoring. I don't recall saying I'd burn the kids' presents or beat him or something, do you? I mentioned relatively gentle rebuke and discussion.

 

I certainly don't think it means I don't have grace because I would ask an 11 year to try again, to wait 5 minutes to open presents, and to apologize. I'm honestly shocked at these responses, acting as though I and other posters are thought-policing evil controlling monsters because we would have some sort of redress for rudeness. No wonder so many kids are rude and thoughtless.

 

I just asked my 14 and 11 year olds what they would think of this response and they said they would think of that kid as spoiled. I asked what it the kid told his mom he really didn't want a shirt, and they said that the boy should still just say thank you, what's the harm?

Yet my dds are far from rude and thoughtless. They also wouldn't be so quick to judge others and call them spoiled. Edited December 26, 2015 by Joker

[Haiku]

If my kids told me they didn't want something as a gift, I wouldn't buy it as a gift. If I wanted them

to have it anyway, I *might* go ahead and buy it and give it to them, but I wouldn't call it a gift or expect gratitude for something they didn't even want to begin with.

 

My dad used to buy me apparel for a sports team I didn't like, and he bought it in sizes large enough for both my dh and me to fit into together.

 

After several years, I finally told him to stop. What good does it do anyone to give gifts that are unwanted? Now he gives me things I actually like. It's a win/win.

[TechWife]

You can't make them have gratitude.  You can train a child to show gratitude (which I believe the OP said her son usually does) but what they feel can't be managed by anyone else, even parents.

 

:hurray:  :hurray: Very Important Parenting Principle.