revving up that obesity thread again

[Annie G]

{{Annie and Annie's GH}} I understand you and your DH's frustration at the situation and with the medical and other people who don't believe you. Please know I understand.

 

I am exercising "anyway" because it feels better and I am better, and I hope that your DH is enjoying the benefits of being very fit.

 

 

He is seeing benefits from working out, so that's a plus. But our health insurance is planning to charge us a higher rate if he can't drop a percentage of his weight by this time next year. Considering how hard he's worked this year, he's not very confident he's going to avoid that higher rate. And it's just about the stupid scale number, not how fit he is.  

 

Thanks for understanding. A guy who works for dh has noticeably lost weight recently and dh asked him what he was doing. He said he's eating nothing but junk food.  I don't know how true that is, but it's annoying to hear someone say they stopped eating veggies and started eating doughnuts for breakfast every day and they're losing weight.  Or another coworker who cut out her morning coffee at work and says she's lost 5 pounds in two weeks.  Ugh. 

[Mergath]

I do agree that in some (many, perhaps) a sugar/carb addiction functions in the body very much like alcohol in an alcoholic body: with a NEED for more that does NOT happen in other-bodied persons. I believe this to be a physiological reality and not a psychological one (in both cases of alcohol and sugar/carb addiction.) The drinking or eating is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself.

 

Yep. Before I went on metformin for my PCOS, this was 100% true for me. I would crave carbs and sugar from morning until night, every single day, no matter how much I ate. Trying to restrict your food intake is hard enough, but feeling hungry all day long when all you can think about is sugar and carbs besides is a nightmare. Then I started taking metformin, and the cravings instantly stopped. Like, in the span of twenty-four hours. Gone. I was still eating sugar and carbs, btw. I just didn't crave them incessantly anymore. And from what I've read online, a lot of other people have had the same experience. So it's most definitely physiological for at least some people if a pill can stop it dead. And there were times before the metformin I gave up sugar and carbs for weeks and the cravings didn't lessen one bit, so it's not a matter of just going through a few days of withdrawal and then never wanting them again, like some people claim. 

 

The people with a genetic tendency toward slimness, no issues with insulin resistance, and perfect health who talk about how easy it is to just cut back on your snacks and watch the pounds melt away sort of remind me of the parents whose kids are easy and well-behaved thanks to a lucky draw in the genetic lottery, and so they're always telling everyone how incredibly easy it is to have well-behaved kids. 

[Annie G]

Is he morbidly obese? have read a couple of different opinions on plateaus....most popular seems to be that body has adjusted to routine, and person is gaining muscle while losing fat, so weight doesnt change. I havent sorted out all the protein and workout recommendations. Successful people say concentrate on fitness and percent body fat, ignore weight, dont expect same results as someone not on medication, and dont fail to treat the pre-diabetes.

 

I would love for him to be gaining muscle while losing fat but that doesn't seem to be the case.  The trainer measures that and in the first few months we saw some changes but now barely anything.  Part of it is that he's in his late 50's and has some physical issues- he was born missing muscle in his calf and missing a couple of bones in his left foot.  That's more limiting than we expected (though it's better than we expected because he was told he'd be walking with a cane by 35)

 

He has 8 stents in his heart and takes drugs to lower his heart rate- does that have any bearing on burning calories? He works out like a madman and sweats and berates heavily like I do when exercising but his heart rate never goes above 110.  

 

No issues with pre-diabetes- his diet is good and his A1C has never been an issue. It's checked as part of his routine bloodwork for his cardiologist but not even close to being an issue. 

[Artichoke]

Yup. One of Dr. Lustig's big things is that we have an epidemic of obese 6 month olds. How on earth are they eating more and moving less than the 6 months old of yore? 

 

My personal theory is that the babies are ingesting too much corn syrup and sugar.  Our grandson was placed on Similac Sensitive whose top two ingredients are corn syrup and sugar ( after water to mix it with ).   Giving corn syrup and sugar to infants s not a healthy thing to do, no matter what the industry says.  This kind of diet is sure to have long lasting effects. 

[Tsuga]

I had a paediatrician who specialised in child growth tell me that it was impossible for a child of mine and my husband's to be over 5'10".  Calvin is 5'11" and has not stopped growing.  

 

I like the description of 'more like engineers'.

 

They told me I'd be 5'10" and still tell me my daughter will grow to be that tall. "You can tell by the feet." "Yes, but in my family, we have proportionally long limbs." "No, most people have the same proportions."

 

Dude. Look at my sleeves. I have the foot size of someone much taller. I swear...

 

The context of the discussion around obese 6 month olds was in regards to fructose in formula, not breastfed babies. 

 

 

While the ingredients in formula may contribute to worse gut health that can contribute to lifelong health problems, I'm still not as worried about "obese" babies. I still think it's better than industrial milk colored with chalk that some people were given at the beginning of the 20th century because they were poor.

[Bluegoat]

I will say this. Many obese people have a much greater than normal appetite from years of dieting, and are sugar addicted to boot. So saying' they should just eat less is like telling an alcoholic to just drink a little less. 

 

Yeah, that is probably true.  And actually I don't think it is just people who have weight issues.  Most people are really attracted to sugar and fats, it makes sense that we would be.  It takes effort for most people to totally stop eating that kind of stuff, and plenty of people never do.  I have to not keep chips in the house or I can eat a whole bag a day without blinking an eye.

 

Some people are just more able, sometimes only for part of their lives, to eat that way without gaining weight.  Even then, it is still likely bad for their health. 

 

I think what is more significant to me in this discussion is people who believe they are dieting or eating well when in fact they really aren't.  I mean, if you know you are having a problem eating what you should, and know what is a good diet, you can at least make a good assessment of what needs to change and try strategies of one kind or another to get there.   But I think there is a population that has a distorted vision of what eating should look like, and even what they themselves are eating.  So that is going to affect the statistical data. 

[Joanne]

But did you gain fitness? And did you get enough movement in? I walked with my neighbor for 45 min daily for several years. Neither of us got any muscle gain out of until we got on the treadmill and started running...we just werent working hard enough walking.

 

The m.o. that I know did not 'eat like that' for months, but for years. Slow and steady, with movement that put their heart rate in the zone that matched their workout goals.

 

Hi, Heigh Ho.

I don't know if you are in the "other thread", so I will summarize my truth here.

 

For *me* to lose weight, I would have to restrict calories, carbs, and portion sizes to absurd and unhealthy levels. I'd have to exercise for hours daily - and then "fight" the increased need for more fuel.

 

In my 30's, low carb "worked" and I began to discover that what I had learned about food and nutrition science was not accurate. Eventually, though, even the common low carb info didn't work.

 

I have not really "yo-yo'd." If I had, some of my metabolic issues might be explained. I lost significant weight 2x but I have mostly just been morbidly obese for nearly 17 years. Years I have been very active and eaten in ways commonly held to be healthy.

 

I did not get to morbidly obese through emotional eating, over-eating, or a sedentary lifestyle. Or from lack of knowledge and utilizing the knowledge about health and fitness. One barrier I have yet to adequately amend is sleep - I think that my lack of adequate sleep is one contributor.

 

What I know is that I am not alone - not by a long shot.

[Joanne]

 

I think what is more significant to me in this discussion is people who believe they are dieting or eating well when in fact they really aren't.  I mean, if you know you are having a problem eating what you should, and know what is a good diet, you can at least make a good assessment of what needs to change and try strategies of one kind or another to get there.   But I think there is a population that has a distorted vision of what eating should look like, and even what they themselves are eating.  So that is going to affect the statistical data. 

 

People in this discussion are telling you that they are very aware of their diet, their habits, what they eat, how they eat, what quantity.

 

And they still don't lose weight according to what the "industry" (and you and others) tell us. If it were just me, I'd shut up and figure out what the hell is wrong with me. But it is NOT just me. There are literally millions of me; people who are severely overweight or obese through no fault of their own. Really. Truly.

[Bluegoat]

People in this discussion are telling you that they are very aware of their diet, their habits, what they eat, how they eat, what quantity.

 

And they still don't lose weight according to what the "industry" (and you and others) tell us. If it were just me, I'd shut up and figure out what the hell is wrong with me. But it is NOT just me. There are literally millions of me; people who are severely overweight or obese through no fault of their own. Really. Truly.

 

I feel like you aren't reading what I said.  I have no doubt that you know what you are eating.

 

I think there are also many people who do not know what they are eating - in fact the studies on this question suggest that most people don't, including people with weight issues.  I think - and I have met them, that there are also people who simply don't know what they should eat.  They think they are eating well, and appropriate amounts, and they aren't.

 

That says nothing about you personally, and isn't meant to. 

 

But it does say that if we look at statistics saying that large amounts of people have dieted, we can't assume that they have actually been consuming a healthy diet, or appropriate amounts, just because they think they have been.  If that is happening, it will impact the statistical data. 

 

My own view is that there may not be anything wrong with you.  I think populations, human and animal, will always have people on both ends of the curve, even with a healthy diet.  It's good for the population to have that kind of variation.  I think doctors have a tendency to think that "average" means the same as "normal." I think they place too much importance on being thin rather than activity and a healthy diet. 

 

I think population-wise, we do have a problem with obesity caused by other factors - mostly based in our food culture and poor agricultural practices and food processing, along with tv, poor sleep practices, and lack of activity.  But that doesn't mean everyone who is heavy falls into that catagory.  Some people that are heavy today would have also been heavy 200 years ago, and that might even have been considered a good thing.  Other health issues can also cause an issue that is unrelated to either cultural changes or basic genetic predisposition.

[Joyofsixreboot]

The only thing I'm sure of is this is a multi factorial problem. Chemicals, lifestyle, personal body chemistry, health issues, etc, etc all are contributing to our weight problems. My dh (who is morbidly obese) has a theory it's not one thing but the synergy of all these working together in confounding ways. *I do have to add in my dh's case it is very poor habits learned from childhood.

[JumpyTheFrog]

The only thing I'm sure of is this is a multi factorial problem. Chemicals, lifestyle, personal body chemistry, health issues, etc, etc all are contributing to our weight problems. 

 

Yeah, I think this is most likely the case. I've had terrible insomnia and fatigue issues for almost nine years now. I now mostly have the insomnia under control, but I never did find one or two things that fixed it. Instead, I have a list about about a dozen lifestyle changes, diet changes, and supplements that work together to help me sleep. None of them on their own (or even with a few others) helped much, but together they have some synergistic power that is starting to help me feel human again. So it isn't too hard for me to imagine that for many people, their weight problems are quite similar.

 

ETA: It's annoying when people ask me, "So what fixed your insomnia?" and expect me to have one single answer. Sorry, it wasn't that simple. I've had 8 1/2 years of experimenting and it was only in June that I found another piece of the puzzle that is making a big difference. But people don't want an essay, they want a simple, "I tried melatonin" or "I gave up coffee" type answer.

[JumpyTheFrog]

One thing I rarely see mentioned is the effect of not enough sleep on appetite and weight gain. DH and I notice that days when we have to get up a few hours we are both starving and eat an extra meal or two. I've also read that even one night of not enough sleep increases insulin resistance. There is certainly an epidemic of Americans who are sleep deprived, many who don't even realize it.

[Lolly]

What do you consider too much workout? Most m.o. that I know that succeed put about two hours daily in, but one woman I know with a sedentary job decided to calorie and portion control, eliminated sugar, bread, and starch, ate greens daily, upped her movement via fitbit and treadmill-about an hour of walking per day, and was back at normal weight in three years. Has maintained for 2 so far. Still parks far away so she gets more steps in.

 

I can tell you that I have walked 6-10 miles  at least 5 days a week for over 6 mths (at a brisk pace, I might add) in addition to doing yard work, house work, and other general movement throughout the day while eating around 1000 calories a day (with a day a week where I allowed myself to have a dessert added to it), drinking only unsweetened tea and water. Yes, I do know what healthy eating is (in many different terms according to different diets/I tend to prefer keeping some carbs in with my greens and protein). I gained weight.No, it wasn't muscle.

But did you gain fitness? And did you get enough movement in? I walked with my neighbor for 45 min daily for several years. Neither of us got any muscle gain out of until we got on the treadmill and started running...we just werent working hard enough walking.

 

The m.o. that I know did not 'eat like that' for months, but for years. Slow and steady, with movement that put their heart rate in the zone that matched their workout goals.

 

No. I did not gain fitness. Honestly, I was fit before. Running is not healthy for me. It makes me so that I cannot walk or be on my feet. Sixteen years of gymnastics (back in the old days before good mats) will ruin the knees. I do know all about fitness and exercise. I am extremely fit. I just happen to also be fat.

[Bluegoat]

One thing I rarely see mentioned is the effect of not enough sleep on appetite and weight gain. DH and I notice that days when we have to get up a few hours we are both starving and eat an extra meal or two. I've also read that even one night of not enough sleep increases insulin resistance. There is certainly an epidemic of Americans who are sleep deprived, many who don't even realize it.

 

If you think about it, because of electric lights, most people are up far more than they would be otherwise, particularly in the winter.  But not up mowing their lawn, they are probably sitting watching tv in most cases.  So - more time to eat, different metabolism, plus people eat more when watching tv.

 

That's on top of much larger portion sizes in the average diet, which people now think of as normal.

[JumpyTheFrog]

If you think about it, because of electric lights, most people are up far more than they would be otherwise, particularly in the winter.  

 

Yes, I've heard in various podcasts (but haven't googled to confirm) that the World Health Organization lists working the night shift as a carcinogen because it wreaks such havoc on the body. 

 

ETA: http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/excessive-sleepiness-10/shift-work?page=2

WHO lists the night shift as "probably carcinogenic"

[Tsuga]

Yeah, that is probably true. And actually I don't think it is just people who have weight issues. Most people are really attracted to sugar and fats, it makes sense that we would be. It takes effort for most people to totally stop eating that kind of stuff, and plenty of people never do. I have to not keep chips in the house or I can eat a whole bag a day without blinking an eye.

 

Some people are just more able, sometimes only for part of their lives, to eat that way without gaining weight. Even then, it is still likely bad for their health.

 

I think what is more significant to me in this discussion is people who believe they are dieting or eating well when in fact they really aren't. I mean, if you know you are having a problem eating what you should, and know what is a good diet, you can at least make a good assessment of what needs to change and try strategies of one kind or another to get there. But I think there is a population that has a distorted vision of what eating should look like, and even what they themselves are eating. So that is going to affect the statistical data.

I kept a food journal for months so I know I'm not crazy. I also have witnesses not only to my own eating but my kids' eating.

 

I suppose I could be getting up in the middle of the night and puking or exercising but my teeth and lack of strength testify to the fact that secret exercising and bulimia are not happening.

 

And I still eat enough to feed a 6'2" active man.

 

And I'm still 118 lbs when I'm not unhappy, 110 when I got divorced.

 

I kept a food journal during pregnancy. I was told to stop eating so much fat and sweets until the weighed me.

 

I had LOST two pounds.

 

I believe people because CICO doesn't work for me either. There must be something else to it.

[Bluegoat]

I kept a food journal for months so I know I'm not crazy. I also have witnesses not only to my own eating but my kids' eating.

 

I suppose I could be getting up in the middle of the night and puking or exercising but my teeth and lack of strength testify to the fact that secret exercising and bulimia are not happening.

 

And I still eat enough to feed a 6'2" active man.

 

And I'm still 118 lbs when I'm not unhappy, 110 when I got divorced.

 

I kept a food journal during pregnancy. I was told to stop eating so much fat and sweets until the weighed me.

 

I had LOST two pounds.

 

I believe people because CICO doesn't work for me either. There must be something else to it.

 

 

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of comments like this in response to comments about the whole population, or statistical data.

 

It seems like you, here, and Joanne are saying  "I don't lose weight even when I am careful and I know what I am eating, therefore that is true of everyone who says they diet and do not lose weight.  If you suggest that there are people like that, it must apply to me, and you are saying I am stupid or crazy."

 

My purpose, if you look back, was addressing the idea that some huge % of women have tried to diet, and the fact that most fail shows there is something weird or different going on.  I don't think that logic follows, because I don't think we can take for granted that all self-reported dieters are actually dieting effectively. 

 

I think that culturally we have a number of very serious food issues, and we don't really have a very good idea of what percentage of obesity problems would be solved or mitigated just by dealing with those - but I think at least some would be, and it might be a lot.  I also think, as I said earlier, that we in many cases judge health by being "thin" and fail to recognize that not everyone will be thin even if they are healthy, and that really is ok.  I don't think it is very clear at all, if we removed both these groups of people, and those with known biologial causes for weight gain, how many would be left who have some other more esoteric issue at play.

[Carrie12345]

I've never even met a woman who hasn't tried dieting, ever. EVERY woman I know, other than the very thin, have tried. Where are these people that are overweight and have never tried cutting back on intake?

 

She lounged around here between 1993 and 2005.  She showed up again from 2009 to 2013 or so, when I finally got some sense into her.  She'd probably tell you differently, but she didn't know what she didn't know.

[Lolly]

I have done the same in terms of walking the miles . All useless after a certain point in muscle development (other than whatever chemicals are generated plus circulation of lymph system) until I fiddled with the macros and calories and lifted weights ( which is really work harder) or biked. Calories are only an estimate, and being off 20% makes a difference.

 

Yep. You are right. I must have been overeating. Lifting doesn't make a difference. (I have an incredible gym in my basement.) Tore a rotator cuff (guessing, I don't do doctors) this summer when I slipped in the water this summer and fell. So, upper body lifting has been suspended. .Yeah, I bike too. Swimming..been there. Though it is odd, swimming hurts my knees worse than anything. I also do P90x. Have to make it low impact, and now vary it for my shoulder, but I do it. Tried yoga, but didn't like it. The instructor of the class came to me afterwards and asked where I had been taking it before. I had no problems doing anything the class required. It was extremely easy. She did not believe I had never been to a class before. I can outlast and outlift my college aged athletic children. (One a record holding NCAA champion swimmer.) So, yes, it must just be that I have no idea how much food I am actually consuming...

 

 

Does the sarcasm come across in my post? It is certainly there.

 

editing to add: The only thing that has allowed me to lose weight has been my fil passing away. I lost about 50 lb in under 6 months after his death. Five of those pounds tend to come and go three years later. I did not change my eating habits. I did not change my exercise habits. Maybe I should consider doing away with other relatives in order to get rid of the pounds.......

 

Also, I am one of those English/Irish blooded people who holds onto iron in their body like crazy. (Prenatal vitamens almost killed me, literally.) I have often wondered if my body holds onto other substances that are causing me to hold onto fat in a similar manner.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Lolly

[kahlanne]

Yep. You are right. I must have been overeating. Lifting doesn't make a difference. (I have an incredible gym in my basement.) Tore a rotator cuff (guessing, I don't do doctors) this summer when I slipped in the water this summer and fell. So, upper body lifting has been suspended. .Yeah, I bike too. Swimming..been there. Though it is odd, swimming hurts my knees worse than anything. I also do P90x. Have to make it low impact, and now vary it for my shoulder, but I do it. Tried yoga, but didn't like it. The instructor of the class came to me afterwards and asked where I had been taking it before. I had no problems doing anything the class required. It was extremely easy. She did not believe I had never been to a class before. I can outlast and outlift my college aged athletic children. (One a record holding NCAA champion swimmer.) So, yes, it must just be that I have no idea how much food I am actually consuming...

 

 

Does the sarcasm come across in my post? It is certainly there.

 

You are the first person I've heard say swimming makes your knees hurt worse than other exercise. I have this problem too. When I say it, people look at me like I have grown a third eye. My knees pop loudly in the water and for lack of a better way of describing it, they feel like they overextend even if they are not. It is so painful yet it is supposed to be easy on the joints. I can do kettlebell squats without as much knee pain.

[EmseB]

To be clear, the person making the statments about obese 6 month olds is a pediatric endocronologist. I'm assuming he has some idea of what is normal and what isn't in children when it comes to obesity. 

 

Perhaps he does, but I still do think it is hard to classify obesity in babies of all people.  I have a friend who has very large babies.  Like 20lb at 4 months large, exclusively breastfed.  All her kids grow up, thin out, and are not obese at all.  But her ped told her that her 4 month old was obese.  I honestly don't think we have much of a baseline anymore for babies since hardly anyone exclusively breastfeeds to 6 months and many schedule feed formula.  And how do you put a baby on a diet?

 

If a baby has an underlying endocrine disorder that's entirely different.  But I'd be extremely wary of classifying even "off the charts" babies as morbidly obese unless there is clearly an over feeding issue or a diagnosed medical disorder, and that is so hard to determine.

[Sun]

What if we are just meant to be bigger?? Supermodels are rare. I spend many hours a day sitting in rooms full of women waiting for children; maybe 1 in 20 is thin. The majority are either plump, overweight or very overweight. Where did the idea come from that we are supposed to be thin? Where did the numbers on the BMI charts come from??

 

Well, I spent a few hours at my child's co-op yesterday and saw probably 100 homeschool mothers there. After reading this thread a bit yesterday, I paid attention to the ratio of overweight to normal/thin. I saw perhaps 1 in 10 women who were overweight, and none who looked to be obese. The majority were thin.

 

 

Normal weight distribution varies greatly from area to area. For example, my countty's public health department states that the obesity rate is 13% in my (US) city. This is hugely different than the 30+% rates in many parts of the US. Are the women in my area just meant to be smaller than the women in your area? Clearly there are cultural as well as the well-known socioeconomic factors that play into what looks like average in different parts of the country.

[8circles]

You are the first person I've heard say swimming makes your knees hurt worse than other exercise. I have this problem too. When I say it, people look at me like I have grown a third eye. My knees pop loudly in the water and for lack of a better way of describing it, they feel like they overextend even if they are not. It is so painful yet it is supposed to be easy on the joints. I can do kettlebell squats without as much knee pain.

 

Add me to the list.  Since my knee surgery, swimming is incredibly painful.  It's way past when it's supposed to hurt.

[Mergath]

My purpose, if you look back, was addressing the idea that some huge % of women have tried to diet, and the fact that most fail shows there is something weird or different going on.  I don't think that logic follows, because I don't think we can take for granted that all self-reported dieters are actually dieting effectively. 

 

 

Part of the problem is that no one even knows what it means to "diet effectively." Some people can lose weight by cutting back slightly on calories but still eating whatever they want within their calorie limits. Some people lose weight if they just cut out grain and make no other changes. Ditto for sugar with some people. Other people can't lose weight unless they eat nothing but vegetables. Some people, meat. And then, of course, there are the people who don't lose weight no matter what they eat or don't eat.

 

Science still hasn't figured out the optimal diet, so if these women haven't figured out how to "diet effectively," it's probably not their fault because even the scientific community doesn't know. Fat is bad! Oh, never mind now it's good. Oh, wait, it might be kind of bad again, but not as bad as before. And salt! Salt is bad! Uh, never mind, not that bad. Caffeine and wine are bad! Nope, they're good, never mind. And meat, meat is the devil! Just kidding, go ahead and eat meat, protein helps you lose weight! And it's the same with different forms of exercise. 

 

I'm in the overweight category, not obese, and even I'm frustrated and about ready to just eat whatever I want because it seems like every week there's a new study or expert telling me that what I did last week was so wrong and no wonder I'm not losing any weight. If I had something like a hundred pounds to lose I probably would have given up by now because it's all so ridiculous.

[regentrude]

Well, I spent a few hours at my child's co-op yesterday and saw probably 100 homeschool mothers there. After reading this thread a bit yesterday, I paid attention to the ratio of overweight to normal/thin. I saw perhaps 1 in 10 women who were overweight, and none who looked to be obese. The majority were thin.

 

Normal weight distribution varies greatly from area to area. For example, my countty's public health department states that the obesity rate is 13% in my (US) city. This is hugely different than the 30+% rates in many parts of the US. Are the women in my area just meant to be smaller than the women in your area? Clearly there are cultural as well as the well-known socioeconomic factors that play into what looks like average in different parts of the country.

 

I was going to write a similar comment. The observation of only 1 in 20 being thin has to be an artifact of a certain demographic or certain area.

In no group I am part of are the proportions like this. Every single one of my female colleagues in the department is thin;  few (I'd estimate about 10%) of my female colleagues campus wide are overweight; the vast majority is slender.

Among my female students, the majority is slim; about ten percent look overweight.

In my women's circle, same thing: quite a few are very thin, most normal weight, few overweight, one obsese with underlying health problems.

 

This is rural Midwest, so not Oregon, Colorado, or Southern California. For some reason which is not quite clear to me, education level seems to be a factor (and PLEASE note that I am NOT saying if you are overweight you are uneducated. I am talking about statistical correlations, not individuals. ) Since there seems to be a correlation, which I believe has been statistically  verified for large samples, it would be interesting to investigate what factors contribute to the differences, because that also means that some factors do not affect everybody equally.

 

[Lolly]

You are the first person I've heard say swimming makes your knees hurt worse than other exercise. I have this problem too. When I say it, people look at me like I have grown a third eye. My knees pop loudly in the water and for lack of a better way of describing it, they feel like they overextend even if they are not. It is so painful yet it is supposed to be easy on the joints. I can do kettlebell squats without as much knee pain.

 

Yep, when my knees were at their worst in my early 20s, the orthopedic doctor told me that swimming was the only exercise I was going to be able to do without surgery. I tried it, but the pain was extremely excruciating. It didn't matter what stroke I did. (Breaststroke is known to be hard on the knee joint.)

[Mergath]

I was going to write a similar comment. The observation of only 1 in 20 being thin has to be an artifact of a certain demographic or certain area.

In no group I am part of are the proportions like this. Every single one of my female colleagues in the department is thin;  few (I'd estimate about 10%) of my female colleagues campus wide are overweight; the vast majority is slender.

Among my female students, the majority is slim; about ten percent look overweight.

In my women's circle, same thing: quite a few are very thin, most normal weight, few overweight, one obsese with underlying health problems.

 

This is rural Midwest, so not Oregon, Colorado, or Southern California. For some reason which is not quite clear to me, education level seems to be a factor (and PLEASE note that I am NOT saying if you are overweight you are uneducated. I am talking about statistical correlations, not individuals. ) Since there seems to be a correlation, which I believe has been statistically  verified for large samples, it would be interesting to investigate what factors contribute to the differences, because that also means that some factors do not affect everybody equally.

 

It's probably more directly related to income level than education. All the crap we hear about how cheap it is to eat healthy and make everything from scratch is just that, crap. A diet of fresh produce with some lean meat costs a small fortune now.

[regentrude]

It's probably more directly related to income level than education. All the crap we hear about how cheap it is to eat healthy and make everything from scratch is just that, crap. A diet of fresh produce with some lean meat costs a small fortune now.

 

No, I cannot confirm this for the ladies I know.  Among the women in my local homeschool  and women's group, many families are in very tight financial circumstances. There are factors that go beyond income.

[Lolly]

No, I cannot confirm this for the ladies I know.  Among the women in my local homeschool  and women's group, many families are in very tight financial circumstances. There are factors that go beyond income.

 

Ah, but we left your immediate circle and went to statistical large samples. As an explanation for the why of your particular group not fitting into this factor, perhaps where you live the lower income families are able to grow their own food which eliminates the need to purchase the lower quality cheap foods. Or more specifically, the homeschooling families you are observing tend to do so. Honestly, I think the more educated would tend to use it as a solution. The ones with less education are more likely to follow the tradition of food purchase using WIC and food stamps that they have grown up witnessing. (I know this is true for where I live.)

[regentrude]

Ah, but we left your immediate circle and went to statistical large samples. As an explanation for the why of your particular group not fitting into this factor, perhaps where you live the lower income families are able to grow their own food which eliminates the need to purchase the lower quality cheap foods. Or more specifically, the homeschooling families you are observing tend to do so. Honestly, I think the more educated would tend to use it as a solution. The ones with less education are more likely to follow the tradition of food purchase they have grown up witnessing. (I know this is true for where I live.)

 

I still stand by my observation that education affects this beyond mere income. The large numbers of slender grad students for example (I am pretty sure that my observation that they tend to be slimmer than the population average is born out by large scale statistics) - high education, very little money - certainly have neither time nor opportunity to grow their own food.

So I think there is more to it that just money.

 

ETA: A quick google search found that some current research attempts to separate the effects of education and income, and there are some hints that it is indeed education and not income that is the stronger factor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/20/education-income-obesity-health-news-this-week_n_3961282.html

I have no time for detailed research right now, gotta work and then cook lunch from scratch.

[Bluegoat]

Part of the problem is that no one even knows what it means to "diet effectively." Some people can lose weight by cutting back slightly on calories but still eating whatever they want within their calorie limits. Some people lose weight if they just cut out grain and make no other changes. Ditto for sugar with some people. Other people can't lose weight unless they eat nothing but vegetables. Some people, meat. And then, of course, there are the people who don't lose weight no matter what they eat or don't eat.

 

Science still hasn't figured out the optimal diet, so if these women haven't figured out how to "diet effectively," it's probably not their fault because even the scientific community doesn't know. Fat is bad! Oh, never mind now it's good. Oh, wait, it might be kind of bad again, but not as bad as before. And salt! Salt is bad! Uh, never mind, not that bad. Caffeine and wine are bad! Nope, they're good, never mind. And meat, meat is the devil! Just kidding, go ahead and eat meat, protein helps you lose weight! And it's the same with different forms of exercise. 

 

I'm in the overweight category, not obese, and even I'm frustrated and about ready to just eat whatever I want because it seems like every week there's a new study or expert telling me that what I did last week was so wrong and no wonder I'm not losing any weight. If I had something like a hundred pounds to lose I probably would have given up by now because it's all so ridiculous.

 

I that that is definitely the case for many people.  I think the "no fat" thing was probably pretty bad for people's diets overall.  And I think a lot of people just don't have much sense of what a healthy diet would look like, or a normal portion, because they have never really eaten that way. 

 

I also think there are people who just are half-hearted, or are not paying very good attention to the amounts they eat, or do things like binge, or have practical issues like money, or just follow total wack-doodle advice. 

 

I always remember my step-dad who had a patient who kept gaining even though her food journal had a pretty reasonable diet.  In the end it turned out she was going through something like five big bottles of ketchup a week.  That's a simple fix, but it just didn't tweak for her that a condiment would be an issue, or even that she was eating so much of it, even though she was working hard to lose weight (or stop gaining.)

 

All these people would all be telling the truth when they said they had dieted, but their results would not tell us a lot about how effective dieting is for losing weight, other than in the very general way that it is hard for people to find and follow a healthy diet.

 

ETA - I agree about the frustration.  For that among other reasons I've come to the conclusion that for most people, its better to make healthy lifestyle the focus rather than weight.

[Lolly]

I still stand by my observation that education affects this beyond mere income. The large numbers of slender grad students for example (I am pretty sure that my observation that they tend to be slimmer than the population average is born out by large scale statistics) - high education, very little money - certainly have neither time nor opportunity to grow their own food.

So I think there is more to it that just money.

 

Ha! Grad students don't have TIME to eat.

 

Yet still, the overall weight  for all groups has gone up. There are far more overweight students on college campuses than when I was there. Grad students included.

 

Though it does make sense. More education makes it more likely to know more about nutrition and how to eat properly. It even would make one less likely to accept the current medical advice and strike out on their own to find something that works when conventional knowledge doesn't work.

[Lolly]

have you read the thread? This isnt about accusations. Its about windows. I dont exercise beyond getting 10000 steps in now. I am losing weight based on figuring out the macro window my particular body needs with my particular chemistry, medication, and health issues. I am interested in what others have done specifically, which is why I am asking. I am not telling anyone what to do with their particular body chemistry. That is their decision. I appreciate all who have shared. If you dont, kindly sob instead of taking it as a personal attack and lashing out in sarcasm. Some of us live in intellectual deserts, and we get help via discussion here rather than forking over hundreds to doctors who repeat what they read twenty years ago in med school. Real life is much more interesting.

 

Sorry. I bow out; after pointing out that all of your posts that I read/at least noted were stating/insinuating that people who are saying watching calories and exercising are lying or unable to judge accurately what they are doing. When you respond to a personal "I did this" post with a "you must not have done it right" post, it does get a little personal.

[SproutMamaK]

Heigh Ho, I am trying to phrase this is the kindest way possible, so please try not to take offense at this.

 

If you want people to not be personally offended by your comments, perhaps you should stop personally responding to people's posts by telling them that they must have been counting their calories wrong or not exercising properly, especially when they are telling you that they have been carefully monitoring and controlling exactly those things. You are repeatedly telling people that they must either be misrepresenting or misunderstanding their own experience because to you it just doesn't add up. Of course that annoys the people you are directing those comments to; I'm not sure what else you would expect.

[Bluegoat]

No, I cannot confirm this for the ladies I know.  Among the women in my local homeschool  and women's group, many families are in very tight financial circumstances. There are factors that go beyond income.

 

I suspect those groups, especially the homeschoolers, wouldn't be typical and can't be extrapolated to the population.

 

Culture is probably a factor, especially with people who have come from a higher income or where there was a lot of emphasis on cooking at home.  Generations of scraping by will look a little different.

 

But the thing about processed foods is they are much denser, calorie wise - you get far more bang for your buck than with fresh.  A 2L bottle of pop for less than a dollar is offering a ton of calories - they are totally empty, but then what you'd buy of meat or flour or carrots for a dollar won't really do the job either.

 

[Reefgazer]

This is true for me; good sleep  = easier to lose weight.  I'm not sure if it has to do with metabolic factors or something else.  Sometimes I think it's as simple "I'm asleep, therefore I am not eating", so I just take in less calories.

One thing I rarely see mentioned is the effect of not enough sleep on appetite and weight gain. DH and I notice that days when we have to get up a few hours we are both starving and eat an extra meal or two. I've also read that even one night of not enough sleep increases insulin resistance. There is certainly an epidemic of Americans who are sleep deprived, many who don't even realize it.

 

[Laura Corin]

This is true for me; good sleep  = easier to lose weight.  I'm not sure if it has to do with metabolic factors or something else.  Sometimes I think it's as simple "I'm asleep, therefore I am not eating", so I just take in less calories.

 

The latest research project would back you up: more hours awake = more eating for many people.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/you-say-you-eat-three-meals-a-day-this-app-proves-you-wrong_5602f3f3e4b00310edf9ba42

[Reefgazer]

I thought DD was the only person who has knees that hurt when they swim.  DD took up competitive swimming and gave up basketball and soccer because of her knees.  4 Weeks in and she told me her knees hurt with the breaststroke.  I was ready to say "OMG, just sit on a couch and don't move for the rest of your life!".  But it turns out the coach was aware of this and many people cannot do certain repetitive motions with their legs.  She's OK if she doesn't do that particular repetitive motion with her legs, which she uses when doing the breast stroke.  So that won't be her competitive event, and just  adjusts her kick during practice..

You are the first person I've heard say swimming makes your knees hurt worse than other exercise. I have this problem too. When I say it, people look at me like I have grown a third eye. My knees pop loudly in the water and for lack of a better way of describing it, they feel like they overextend even if they are not. It is so painful yet it is supposed to be easy on the joints. I can do kettlebell squats without as much knee pain.

 

[Tsuga]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of comments like this in response to comments about the whole population, or statistical data.

 

It seems like you, here, and Joanne are saying "I don't lose weight even when I am careful and I know what I am eating, therefore that is true of everyone who says they diet and do not lose weight. If you suggest that there are people like that, it must apply to me, and you are saying I am stupid or crazy."

 

My purpose, if you look back, was addressing the idea that some huge % of women have tried to diet, and the fact that most fail shows there is something weird or different going on. I don't think that logic follows, because I don't think we can take for granted that all self-reported dieters are actually dieting effectively.

 

**on a phone, so will note replies w/an asterisk. Yes, the science on dieting is abysmal. However there is also evidence under controlled conditions (generally with prisoners and rats) that CICO doesn't work in a linear way either and that there are other factors. Counter examples are often dismissed by people with an agenda (something to sell) and they ideas hominem attacks like you did--"fat people don't know what is healthy, so they aren't reporting accurately" to dismiss evidence against CICO. I bring up my story precisely because I'm not fat. I'm also one of many people in my family with this makeup. You can't say I don't know what's healthy as evidenced by my sheer fatness, because

 

(A ) I'm not fat. I have skinny cred. So nobody can dismiss what I'm saying by claiming that I just think I'm healthy because I want an excuse. I don't need an excuse for my hotness. Eta I meant to add a smiley there. ;)

 

(B) I have verified my diet with others in a group and under a doctor's supervision. Again, this is to say, you claim that people generally are wrong about what they are eating, and that may be true, but certainly there are people who are honest and accurate and CiCO still doesn't "work".

--

I think that culturally we have a number of very serious food issues, and we don't really have a very good idea of what percentage of obesity problems would be solved or mitigated just by dealing with those - but I think at least some would be, and it might be a lot. I also think, as I said earlier, that we in many cases judge health by being "thin" and fail to recognize that not everyone will be thin even if they are healthy, and that really is ok. I don't think it is very clear at all, if we removed both these groups of people, and those with known biologial causes for weight gain, how many would be left who have some other more esoteric issue at play.

I agree it's not clear. I think that there is strong evidence that it's non-zero percentage, though. I think the point we are making is that advice based on bad studies or no studies or contradictory studies is not helpful to individuals and the tendency to blame fat people for not being thin creates a bias against looking for more complex physiological causes.

 

Even when the controlled studies (prisoners, rats, other groups under observation) show that CICO is not nearly the full picture across a population, they are dismissed as fat people making excuses.

 

If you look at the BBC 2009 documentary, "Why are thin people not fat" then you will see it's not just a few anecdotes. There is ample evidence that CICO is an incomplete theory at best.

[Reefgazer]

I think the effects of childhood poverty (versus what income a person has as an adult) and parental education levels (versus an individual education level) probably also come into play.  The tastes we develop as a child, even for crap "poverty food" stick with us for a lifetime and are very hard to change.  That is probably why it's not simply an education issue or a poverty issue alone.

I still stand by my observation that education affects this beyond mere income. The large numbers of slender grad students for example (I am pretty sure that my observation that they tend to be slimmer than the population average is born out by large scale statistics) - high education, very little money - certainly have neither time nor opportunity to grow their own food.

So I think there is more to it that just money.

 

ETA: A quick google search found that some current research attempts to separate the effects of education and income, and there are some hints that it is indeed education and not income that is the stronger factor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/20/education-income-obesity-health-news-this-week_n_3961282.html

I have no time for detailed research right now, gotta work and then cook lunch from scratch.

 

[Joyofsixreboot]

My observation in my co-op is that of the 10 moms in my co-op 3 are not overweight. I them googled my state (37.7%) and county( 30%) obesity rate so evidently in my very mall group homeschoolers have a problem. What I notice is despite all the cultural push to be thin, losing weight or being a normal weight is viewed as unhealthy in my community of friends and acquaintances. I assume people come to view what they see everyday as " normal". I can't speak to every individual but I think much of the local problem is poor dietary habits, high fast food intake and a feeling that having kids or getting older means it is a given that weight will be gained. Exercise and " strange" diets are looked upon as weird or fringe.

[Bluegoat]

I agree it's not clear. I think that there is strong evidence that it's non-zero percentage, though. I think the point we are making is that advice based on bad studies or no studies or contradictory studies is not helpful to individuals and the tendency to blame fat people for not being thin creates a bias against looking for more complex physiological causes.

 

Even when the controlled studies (prisoners, rats, other groups under observation) show that CICO is not nearly the full picture across a population, they are dismissed as fat people making excuses.

 

If you look at the BBC 2009 documentary, "Why are thin people not fat" then you will see it's not just a few anecdotes. There is ample evidence that CICO is an incomplete theory at best.

 

I agree it's incomplete.  I would say the issue is that "calories out" isn't all that easy to calculate, its a complex organic system, and like many systems of that type science only has a fairly weak grasp of the relationships.  So, the idea that you can just balance X number of calories and Y amount of activity is crazy.

 

I can see too how some people (like my husband...) don't quite seem to grasp that what foods are eaten, or gut health, or whatever, might be a factor, because CICO makes sense to them.  And that is a problem.

 

However, I also think that pretty much any explanation is going to require significant explanation to be helpful, and the short version will be inadequate.  So the problem may be more around people's desire to have simplistic answers. 

 

I think what bothers people, or what bothers me anyway, about dismissing CICO right out, is I think that the problem of increasing obesity in the population has its origins in unhealthy eating that starts with a significant increase in portion sizes, snacking,  and calorie intake generally.  I would say that tendency comes from consumerism and industrial agriculture, for the most part, and the fact that we are so much less active doesn't help, so maybe those are the thins we should look at, but that is going to be a hard nut to crack..  But to me, one of the first steps to changing the problem in the population is to look to what kinds of foods we are eating, how often, and so on.  Not that we shouldn't look at things like hormone disruptors, for all kinds of other reasons too, but we know, right now, that what people are learning to eat is bad for them, and its a change that could be made if people really wanted to - food habits have been changed before.

[EmseB]

I that that is definitely the case for many people.  I think the "no fat" thing was probably pretty bad for people's diets overall.  And I think a lot of people just don't have much sense of what a healthy diet would look like, or a normal portion, because they have never really eaten that way. 

 

YES.  Oh my goodness I keep waiting for this to be turned around so that I can buy full fat yogurt and stuff like that again without having to search for it.

 

I think it will be a long time though.  It is so easy to associate "no fat" foods with...not getting fat.

[regentrude]

YES.  Oh my goodness I keep waiting for this to be turned around so that I can buy full fat yogurt and stuff like that again without having to search for it.

 

I think it will be a long time though.  It is so easy to associate "no fat" foods with...not getting fat.

 

Amen.

In the meantime, here is my hack for restoring the low/non-fat yoghurt to something close to its original state: add some heavy cream. Thank goodness they still sell cream that has not had its fat taken out.

 

[StephanieZ]

FWIW, I've observed some strong cultural/social patterns with serious obesity. The other day, I saw a wedding picture that a (non blood) relative was in. There were 7 or so bridesmaids and the bride. Every. Single. One. was morbidly obese. I know this social group has plenty of money (certainly well above poverty). They were not all/most biologically related. The relative in the picture has always been obese, and I suspect it was linked to her biological family's genetics as well as bad eating habits from her adoptive family, possibly compounded by psychological issues. (Her adoptive family's women all have eating problems -- either anorexia or severe overeating -- I've witnessed the severe overeating for decades.) I didn't/don't know the other people in the picture, but I was shocked to see my relative looking relatively slim in comparison. These are all young women in their 20s to 30s. At various times, when I've visited certain churches or other social groups, I've seen this pattern play out. Similarly, other social groups where the large majority of women are slim. I know that in the "slim" social groups I interact with regularly, the social activities routinely involve exercise. Women meet for bike rides, trail runs, hikes, dancing . . . Vacations routinely are based on or heavily include lots of exercise -- backpacking, hiking, kayaking, surfing, etc. Womens' weekend trips might be a marathon of bike riding. . .  Groups plan races together or other active goals . . . A Father's Day outing might be a couple families meeting for a day hike and a picnic. It is a norm of high levels of social physical activity that seems to mark the "slim" groups I know well. Likewise, when we gather for meals, vegetables are heavily represented, as are grilled lean meats, fish, healthy oils, organic foods, grass fed meats, etc. It's not that these groups never go out for pizza, but rather that the norm is skewed heavily towards healthier eating and an active lifestyle. Some of the women in these groups are moderate income, but, it is true that the vast majority that *I* know in these groups are higher income and highly educated. 

 

This is NOT to say that every woman in the "slim" groups are slim. Some are overweight, many (self included) dance the line between overweight and "healthy" BMI and have to "work at it" to stay on the slim side . . . Some have been overweight for periods of time but then regroup and lose it. None of the women I know in these groups are morbidly obese, but I am sure some border "obese" at times. Similarly, I'm sure not every woman in the more overweight groups are overweight. BUT, I do see a significant difference in these groups which is unlikely due to direct income/education . . . This sort of observation is consistent with research that has repeatedly shown that if you have "slim" friends, you tend to stay slimmer, and if you have heavy friends, you tend to gain weight. Lifestyle does make an impact. 

 

I do think that sleep deprivation has a big role in weight. There is some good research out there on how important sleep is for our health and specifically weight. It makes sense that too much light exposure (essentially extending our day by many hours) and too little sleep likely plays havoc with our hormones and thus our weight. 

[kiana]

Yes Stephanie, absolutely, and this is an object of current research -- http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/magazine/13contagion-t.html?_r=0 for a layman's summary. 

[December]

 

 

She was at my place for about an hour.  During that time she ate a filled doughnut, a piece of chocolate cake, and a coffee with two cream and two sugar.  That is pretty typical of her family as well.  So - while they might all say they have spent lots of time dieting, it is difficult to take that very seriously.  IMO they really have very little idea what would happen if they tried to really just eat in a healthy way and become a little more active, without even getting as far as thinking about portions.

 

 

 

 

If you want to help your cousin out in her dieting, maybe don't offer her donuts and cake when she comes to see you?  Keep it out of sight.  She could be going weeks without eating junk food, but then when she arrives at your house, after weeks of no yummy treats, the offers of donuts and cake is just too much to resist.  I know I eat differently at someone else's house when offered yummy treats than I do at my own house, where I don't buy the treats in the first place, so I won't be tempted.

[Julie Smith]

A study backs this up: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html?_r=0

 

Study says obesity can be contagious

 

 

FWIW, I've observed some strong cultural/social patterns with serious obesity. The other day, I saw a wedding picture that a (non blood) relative was in. There were 7 or so bridesmaids and the bride. Every. Single. One. was morbidly obese. I know this social group has plenty of money (certainly well above poverty). They were not all/most biologically related. The relative in the picture has always been obese, and I suspect it was linked to her biological family's genetics as well as bad eating habits from her adoptive family, possibly compounded by psychological issues. (Her adoptive family's women all have eating problems -- either anorexia or severe overeating -- I've witnessed the severe overeating for decades.) I didn't/don't know the other people in the picture, but I was shocked to see my relative looking relatively slim in comparison. These are all young women in their 20s to 30s. At various times, when I've visited certain churches or other social groups, I've seen this pattern play out. Similarly, other social groups where the large majority of women are slim. I know that in the "slim" social groups I interact with regularly, the social activities routinely involve exercise. Women meet for bike rides, trail runs, hikes, dancing . . . Vacations routinely are based on or heavily include lots of exercise -- backpacking, hiking, kayaking, surfing, etc. Womens' weekend trips might be a marathon of bike riding. . .  Groups plan races together or other active goals . . . A Father's Day outing might be a couple families meeting for a day hike and a picnic. It is a norm of high levels of social physical activity that seems to mark the "slim" groups I know well. Likewise, when we gather for meals, vegetables are heavily represented, as are grilled lean meats, fish, healthy oils, organic foods, grass fed meats, etc. It's not that these groups never go out for pizza, but rather that the norm is skewed heavily towards healthier eating and an active lifestyle. Some of the women in these groups are moderate income, but, it is true that the vast majority that *I* know in these groups are higher income and highly educated. 

 

This is NOT to say that every woman in the "slim" groups are slim. Some are overweight, many (self included) dance the line between overweight and "healthy" BMI and have to "work at it" to stay on the slim side . . . Some have been overweight for periods of time but then regroup and lose it. None of the women I know in these groups are morbidly obese, but I am sure some border "obese" at times. Similarly, I'm sure not every woman in the more overweight groups are overweight. BUT, I do see a significant difference in these groups which is unlikely due to direct income/education . . . This sort of observation is consistent with research that has repeatedly shown that if you have "slim" friends, you tend to stay slimmer, and if you have heavy friends, you tend to gain weight. Lifestyle does make an impact. 

 

I do think that sleep deprivation has a big role in weight. There is some good research out there on how important sleep is for our health and specifically weight. It makes sense that too much light exposure (essentially extending our day by many hours) and too little sleep likely plays havoc with our hormones and thus our weight. 

 

[kiana]

If you want to help your cousin out in her dieting, maybe don't offer her donuts and cake when she comes to see you?  Keep it out of sight.  She could be going weeks without eating junk food, but then when she arrives at your house, after weeks of no yummy treats, the offers of donuts and cake is just too much to resist.  I know I eat differently at someone else's house when offered yummy treats than I do at my own house, where I don't buy the treats in the first place, so I won't be tempted.

 

Right, and whether or not she's going weeks without eating junk food, it's still a kind thing to do.

 

I have a heck of a time avoiding junk food at someone else's house, especially potato chips. I keep them out of my house for a reason :D

[JumpyTheFrog]

I live in an area with a sizable number of immigrants from Mexico and Central America. What I have noticed is that 90% or more of the women are overweight but hardly any of the men are. The men are frequently short, probably from malnutrition as a kid, but rarely overweight. Their daughters are usually overweight and the son often are as well (at least the ones before puberty). Now I would assume that the men and women are eating generally the same foods, but yet they often look like they are from different planets? What is going on? Is it because most of these men are working construction or landscaping jobs, plus they play soccer? (The women don't seem to play soccer.) I would think many of these women are working cleaning houses or other jobs that require a lot of movement.

 

Can anyone explain what is going on? The Latinos are the only group where we've noticed such a large difference in rates of being overweight between men and women. All the other groups seem to have similar rates, except maybe the kids are getting fat at a younger age.