Anyone NOT a "relaxed" homeschooler?

[FO4UR]

I guess what I'm noticing IRL and somewhat in posts, is some fuzzy line where homeschool is about light-ish academics and the big focus is on mom being confident that whatever gets done is good enough. I'm not necessarily trying to get my kids into Ivy schools, but I am aiming for them to do well on tests and get into good colleges of their choice. It seems like that kind of purpose is not especially in vogue right now:)

 

 

And here is where I would question you, as a caring sister sticking her nose where it doesn't really belong...but out of love, of course. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Do you really have the right/authority/wisdom to *aim* them anywhere?  That silly proverb about teaching pigs to sing comes to mind.  (What is it?  Don't try to teach pigs to sing.  You'll only drive yourself crazy and frustrate the pigs.)

 

If they are destined for the Ivy's, you aren't going to stop them by giving them a mediocre education that they build upon to take themselves to the Ivy's.

 

If they are destined for something less glamorous, you aren't going to prepare them for life by pushing them beyond their frustration level to get rigor.

 

 

I think we can agree that we both (probably all of us posting on this thread) are homeschooling to open wide as many doors of opportunity as possible.  And maybe I'm projecting and preaching to myself (rough morning here) but maybe it's futile to push a child through a door they aren't ready for, and may never be destined for.  Maybe they can see something better ahead and are waiting for their time? Maybe our expectations are in their way?

 

I keep going back to CM's imploring to feed these kids.  Feed their bellies, and feed their minds.  Did the lessons they completed today feed their minds? If not, then they left the table under nourished.  We left a day twiddling away at _____ instead of preparing them for the door they WILL walk through one day.  Even if ______ is a noble thing, if it doesn't feed the heart and mind of the child currently at the table, it was a waste.

[quark]

 

Nontraditional learners thrive and advance with nontraditional methods of learning.

 

 

I haven't read all the posts...but yes, yes, yes to this.

 

My son told me the other day that what we are doing should be called unschooling although I am not as comfortable giving our homeschooling style a fixed name. He probably read up about it or watched a TED talk and thinks this is us. *I* think this is because he thinks of unschooling as very student-directed (we've been that way for the last 6-ish years, the first 2-ish not as much...those 2 years, I tried to be *rigorous* as I saw it and we hit a wall of frustration and loss of love of learning). OP, take a peek at the non-traditional math resources thread in my siggy (I'm not selling anything, I promise) and you'll see a long list of math resources we have used or seriously considered using...this is our brand of unschooling (if my son is right). This is him and his relationship with learning. So meaningful, relevant, beautiful, and yes, fun too because I don't see why not. I don't know if I will ever wish to change the way we approached his education. I am grateful for it every single day. Even more so today when I passed by some kids in the community college where my son now takes some of his classes, and overheard their attitude towards learning. It's heartbreaking that anyone should become so disillusioned with learning challenging things.

[Penguin]

This is probably one of the last forums you'll find a majority of overly relaxed homeschoolers. Just look through the grade planning threads to see what everyone is doing. The lists are usually intimidatingly long! :)

 

That said, there has been quite a few threads about being relaxed, but I don't think it means what you are taking it to mean. I think the majority here are part of the strategically relaxed crowd. It might seem relaxed, but if you look a little deeper you'll see it's actually quite rigorous.

 

Being "relaxed" can be hard work. Often it means that I have already spent oodles of time researching and planning and getting myself all stressed out over goals I wish to accomplish and books we'd like to cover. We may sit around and discuss books and seem relaxed, but really ds9 is busy questioning everything I just read, always at the ready to discuss complex ideas while dd8 is silently correcting his grammar. ;)

Strategically relaxed: Yes!

Plum Crazy, you have described me. Our homeschool is relaxed because of the oodles of time I spend researching and overthinking and stressing.

[Arcadia]

The first year, hubby was concerned about standardised tests results for our boys. After that as long as our boys love learning hubby is happy.

 

My kids are intense, I am relaxed. So depends on whether you are asking the kids or the parents.

 

It's heartbreaking that anyone should become so disillusioned with learning challenging things.

It is not just challenging things. Kids seem more passive about learning, just going with whatever was already planned for them.

 

Definately not unschooling. Still have to get catologs for the kids to browse and transport them everywhere. Definately child led style of homeschooling.

 

ETA:

DS9 had to borrow a science fiction book from the teens section for the first time yesterday. He made me escort him there :lol: The book's interest level was rated at 5th-9th grade and shelved with the kids books at other libraries.

[quark]

  

Lol!! I almost asked what defines a classical education and then I thought, nah, we really don't want to go there. :laugh:

 

Awww, why not? :Angel_anim: :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:leaving:

 

[Roadrunner]

We are rather draconian around here. We pick resources for depth (like aops). No worksheets, but we read and write a lot every day.

[Runningmom80]

Should we link the OP to the Circe thread? :leaving:

[texasmama]

Should we link the OP to the Circe thread? :leaving:

:lol:

 

I read that thread.  It did change how we "do school".  If the OP has days and days to spend reading a thread and braiding her brain into circles, sure!

 

(I never finished The Abolition of Man.  I have to believe that reading half of it somehow improved me.)

[Runningmom80]

:lol:

 

I read that thread.  It did change how we "do school".  If the OP has days and days to spend reading a thread and braiding her brain into circles, sure!

 

(I never finished The Abolition of Man.  I have to believe that reading half of it somehow improved me.)

 

I read it while it was in progress. I tried to go back and re read it, but I didn't have 2 weeks to devote to it. :lol:

[Runningmom80]

On the topic of "rigor,"  I just finished a Project-Based homeschooling course with Lori Pickert.  I posted on the class forum about my inner turmoil of giving up rigor in pursuit of a child led education.  She gave me a thoughtful answer and linked two blogs

 

http://www.tonywagner.com/238 (Rigor on Trial)

 

http://speedchange.blogspot.com/2012/01/changing-gears-2012-re-thinking-rigor.html(Rethinking Rigor)

[enchantedhome]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. That's all. Not trying to debate what classical education really is. I'm not that much of a newbie;)

Sorry if I've offended in some way...I'm just looking for ideas to emulate, and I don't often see them unless they are on threads involving these kinds of ideas.

[texasmama]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. That's all. Not trying to debate what classical education really is. I'm not that much of a newbie;)

Sorry if I've offended in some way...I'm just looking for ideas to emulate, and I don't often see them unless they are on threads involving these kinds of ideas.

We're not offended. This is us on a good day, behaving ourselves and being kind and gentle.  :D

[Runningmom80]

You didn't offend anyone. This was just forum banter. See, you ARE a newbie. :)

 

And I'm still interested in a debate about what classical education really is :D.

 

I was just going to say, "No, you didn't offend anyone, this is just what we do."  (Because these topics are cyclical.)

 

OP, give it a few months, there will be a ton of posts about rigor and challenge.

[texasmama]

And I'm still interested in a debate about what classical education really is :D.

Do not go there so early in the day.

[texasmama]

It's nearly 4 pm here. :D

Oh dear.  I'm in trouble.  Must.get.more.coffee.

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is probably one of the last forums you'll find a majority of overly relaxed homeschoolers. Just look through the grade planning threads to see what everyone is doing. The lists are usually intimidatingly long! :)

 

That said, there has been quite a few threads about being relaxed, but I don't think it means what you are taking it to mean. I  think the majority here are part of the strategically relaxed crowd. It might seem relaxed, but if you look a little deeper you'll see it's actually quite rigorous.

 

Being "relaxed" can be hard work. Often it means that I have already spent oodles of time researching and planning and getting myself all stressed out over goals I wish to accomplish and books we'd like to cover. We may sit around and discuss books and seem relaxed, but really ds9 is busy questioning everything I just read, always at the ready to discuss complex ideas while dd8 is silently correcting his grammar. ;)

 

Agreed. I work extremely hard to be relaxed during the actual school day!!  ;)  :D

[8filltheheart]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. That's all. Not trying to debate what classical education really is. I'm not that much of a newbie;)

Sorry if I've offended in some way...I'm just looking for ideas to emulate, and I don't often see them unless they are on threads involving these kinds of ideas.

As others have stated, no one is offended. Just engaging in WTM forum humor. :)

 

Why not share how you define "rigorous academics" and ask questions specifically regarding the types of ideas you are seeking?

 

What are you aiming for at 6 and 8? You need clarify your goals or no one can offer any suggestions.

[Bluegoat]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. That's all. Not trying to debate what classical education really is. I'm not that much of a newbie;)

Sorry if I've offended in some way...I'm just looking for ideas to emulate, and I don't often see them unless they are on threads involving these kinds of ideas.

 

I'm not sure that gentle is really opposed to rigorous either - I would tend to naturally oppose it to "harsh". 

 

I think that often a much better question is what is developmentally appropriate.  Is it rigorous to be expecting K level kids to read, or pre-K - or is it just inappropriate?  Is it rigorous to spend time teaching formal grammar to kids in lower elementary, or is it just giving them a lot of desk time that won't be better for them in the long run than introducing it in upper elementary?

[VorLady]

This is such a helpful thread... we just moved and for the first time I'm socializing with all these other homeschool moms and the most "rigorous" of them are the Charlotte Mason types. I had to google the curriculum half of them were using and I admit to kind of rolling my eyes over the description... I didn't even know "Waldorf" was a learning style.

 

Meanwhile my first grader is doing math, science, reading, world history, memorization, literature (this week we're reading children's versions of Gilgamesh! This is so amazingly awesomely cool!) ... she's the only 6 year old in our playgroup who reads. I'm getting a bit worried that I'm overworking her. But no - everything gets done in two hours or so, we spend plenty of time playing, she's not overwhelmed. We're just naturally a more academic family than the ones I'm hanging out with.

[Corraleno]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. That's all. Not trying to debate what classical education really is. I'm not that much of a newbie;)

Sorry if I've offended in some way...I'm just looking for ideas to emulate, and I don't often see them unless they are on threads involving these kinds of ideas.

 

I wouldn't assume that "gentle academics" = second rate. Sometimes "gentle academics" may not only be "good enough," it may actually be the absolute best and most effective way for a child to learn, especially in the early years. If you read the HS and college boards here, I think you'll find that many of the parents who've successfully homeschooled multiple kids through high school and into college are actually the ones who are more "relaxed" in the elementary years. There's a reason for that — and it's not because they didn't care enough or weren't invested enough to push harder and not "settle" for a second-rate education. It's because they were wise enough to realize that this is a marathon not a sprint, and that pushing too hard in the early stages of the race is more likely to lead to dropping out than finishing first. The key is to find that pace that challenges the child while keeping them focused and enthusiastic about the race itself.

 

It's easy to look at a child who seems to be moseying along, stopping to look at bugs and smell flowers, and think wow, that mom is a slacker, that kid is not keeping up with the pack and isn't going to finish the race nearly as well as that other kid over there, whose mom is coaching him to run harder and focus on the finish line, not the scenery. But then when you get to the middle of the race, you'll see a lot of those moms trying to force those kids to keep running, with increasingly ineffective threats and bribes. And then by high school, many are turning those kids over to other coaches, because they no longer have the energy or ability to keep pushing and nagging and punishing those kids until they cross the finish line.

 

Meanwhile, the kids who learned to actually enjoy running for it's own sake, not just because there's supposedly a prize at the end or because they'll be punished for stopping, are happily jogging along, speeding up when they have a surge of energy, slowing down when they want to look around, finishing the first race full of enthusiasm for the next, wondering why so many of the kids around them hate running.

[FO4UR]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. That's all. Not trying to debate what classical education really is. I'm not that much of a newbie;)

Sorry if I've offended in some way...I'm just looking for ideas to emulate, and I don't often see them unless they are on threads involving these kinds of ideas.

 

 

I'll give an example from my life.  I have a dyslexic who was 9yo and not reading a lick.  I cut ALL academics except for reading lessons, 10min of daily copywork, and math (mostly oral work).  We did history/science/literature through read alouds and oral narration.  This lasted a whole school year iirc.

 

To you, it might look like I was too gentle on him.  However, there was purposeful prioritizing going on.  I knew that he needed every brain cell focused on learning to read.  If it didn't take us there, it was cut or done orally.  Within a year he was reading Treasure Island (unabridged, for fun).  

 

Gentle works.  

 

Another example, another child.  If she gets her schoolwork done in the morning she spends her afternoons reading, playing, writing stories, writing letters to friends, making things, reading to her little sister, practicing music, etc...  If her school day is too long and rigorous, she spends the evening staring at a screen to decompress.

 

Gentle gives life.

[JennW in SoCal]

I think I need professional intervention. I don't even have a kid in the race anymore and I'm still opening and reading these threads!!

 

As with everything you do as a parent, your dreams of how you will be the perfect homeschool parent will inevitably clash with what works best for your child, and it will never match what the other families are doing. Just as soon as you say "I'd never settle for gentle academics" you find one child or another balking at your carefully planned homeschool schedule and making everyone miserable. Or you decide to fully embrace Waldorf until you realize your child thrives on a schedule, checklist and worksheets.  Theory is great, but what matters is doing what works for the kid in front of you.

 

Students representing the entire spectrum of forum styles -- from traditional text book "rigor" to out of the box "relaxed" -- have all gone off to college and done very, very well.  And many of us veterans are still friends, even though our styles were so very different!

 

ETA: I might as well throw my hat into the gentle, relaxed homeschool ring. My boys have both thanked me for all the hours we spent reading aloud, exploring interests and the world around us rather than doing hours of textbook lessons and worksheets. They felt I prepared them well for college and life.

[enchantedhome]

So, remember the Jenny Rallens video, the one about The Liturgical Classroom? After I read the Circe thread and then watched that video, I was completely inspired. What I want, in general terms, is something like what she's describing: totally engaged kids, learning at a challenging level, using all parts of their mind/body/soul to take in and make use of ideas. Kids who still love to learn when we get to the end of high school, who care passionately about good literature and who can confidently handle higher levels of math (I was a total victim of the 80's upheaval in math education and I have seriously been hampered ever since). I'd like them to have a solid background in Latin and a foreign language and be able to write really clearly and effectively (and enjoy doing it). As we get closer to the high school years, I think lab science is really important. Also, we are Catholic, and our faith plays a part in each day as well (I'm learning along side them, since I'm a convert still getting to know the tradition). I sort of envision it as a fabulous classical private school, but tailored for two kids at home. There's a schedule, and I try to keep to it, since I want to make sure we're progressing in most areas. I totally enjoy the days at home/work with my kiddos, but none of this is casual. I think it's the casual nature of some of what I see that I'm reacting against. 

 

As for where we are now, my little guys are not on lockdown here doing worksheets and old-school boxed curriculum:) We read aloud a ton (poems and stories every day), do math every day, work on handwriting and grammar through Brave Writer, and are using SOTW for history (looking at maps and reading supplemental stuff as we go). There's art and music too. It all takes us about 2-3 hours total per day, with a couple of short breaks in there, and then they are free to Lego, write, craft, play outside, etc. I have no idea if all of this will evolve in complexity as we go, but I certainly expect it will. I want them to leave home feeling as though I prepared them well for university and for life. I don't want their having been home schooled to be a hinderance to them. I don't feel stressed about it, necessarily, but I feel as though I have a serious job to do.

 

I live in a super relaxed, crunchy area, and I tend to find that we are looked upon as being quite formal/academic, which is odd, given that my kids do not spend oodles of time doing table work and drills. The spectrum on this stuff is fascinating to me. 

[FriedClams]

We are rigorous AND relaxed. Really.

 

My kids are older - 9th and 8th - always homeschooled. I am convinced the groundwork and habits laid when they were younger is the reason we can live in both worlds. When they were younger I was huge on habits - when it's school time, it's school time. Work is neat or redone. We worked on cheerful attitudes - even when we didn't want to have one (and that was ALL of us - I'd own my junk too). We rarely skipped lessons - traveling, local school's out, etc. We limited electronics - and never turned them on during the day (the kids... LOL!). If a lesson was to be done Monday, 92% of the time we completed it. I wasn't a task master or mean - but we stuck to a schedule and routine (and we travel a lot, so we took it with us). Yes, some days were long. Yes, there were some growing pains. For the most part I learned very early in the journey that schoolwork can be a tool to help build relationships and character - not a hindrance to those things.

 

Fast forward, and the routine is now pretty much theirs. My kids have a weekly schedule - a hard one - and they execute it. How they do that it pretty much their plan. Sit on the couch? Sure. Listen to music while doing math? Feel free.  Math at Starbucks? Sure. Do Tuesday's writing Monday so you have a little time to spend with a friend? Sure. Joke and laugh during the school day - frequent and prolonged. I LOVE homeschooling my teens. But, the list gets done each week, every week. Block upon block. They helped picked classes and curriculum this year. They have ownership. They've grown into it nd know exactly what the standards and consequences are in our home. Now that they are older and self directed, I'd say we're very relaxed - and very rigorous.

 

(For the record - wake up time isn't negotiable in my house. 7. At the latest. It's a HUGE pet peeve of mine so that's one area I am not relaxed at all about. Just being honest!)

[lllll]

nm

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't assume that "gentle academics" = second rate. Sometimes "gentle academics" may not only be "good enough," it may actually be the absolute best and most effective way for a child to learn, especially in the early years. If you read the HS and college boards here, I think you'll find that many of the parents who've successfully homeschooled multiple kids through high school and into college are actually the ones who are more "relaxed" in the elementary years. There's a reason for that — and it's not because they didn't care enough or weren't invested enough to push harder and not "settle" for a second-rate education. It's because they were wise enough to realize that this is a marathon not a sprint, and that pushing too hard in the early stages of the race is more likely to lead to dropping out than finishing first. The key is to find that pace that challenges the child while keeping them focused and enthusiastic about the race itself.

 

It's easy to look at a child who seems to be moseying along, stopping to look at bugs and smell flowers, and think wow, that mom is a slacker, that kid is not keeping up with the pack and isn't going to finish the race nearly as well as that other kid over there, whose mom is coaching him to run harder and focus on the finish line, not the scenery. But then when you get to the middle of the race, you'll see a lot of those moms trying to force those kids to keep running, with increasingly ineffective threats and bribes. And then by high school, many are turning those kids over to other coaches, because they no longer have the energy or ability to keep pushing and nagging and punishing those kids until they cross the finish line.

 

Meanwhile, the kids who learned to actually enjoy running for it's own sake, not just because there's supposedly a prize at the end or because they'll be punished for stopping, are happily jogging along, speeding up when they have a surge of energy, slowing down when they want to look around, finishing the first race full of enthusiasm for the next, wondering why so many of the kids around them hate running.

 

I really love this post, too, Jackie.  I wanted to quote it b/c it really speaks to heart of the child's perspective and how their education influences them.  Ownership over learning, internal motivation, creating personal goals, pursuing passions---those are character traits that don't come from a formula or box or a book.  Those are traits that are nurtured, encouraged, and tended with care.  Fires can be prevented from being lit by using damp wood.  Fires can be smothered and doused.  Children are naturally inquisitive.  Sparks catch flame.  Keeping that flame gently nurtured when they are young reaps huge rewards when they are older.  My older kids are independently driven.   And they are driven.  They have major goals and the impetus for achieving them comes from within themselves.   

 

There is a post on the high school board with the title "What do you do with a kid who is completely unmotivated? " I have not even opened the thread b/c it is a question I cannot relate to.  I have never encountered that with any of my children, so I have no insight at all.

[Chrysalis Academy]

So, remember the Jenny Rallens video, the one about The Liturgical Classroom? After I read the Circe thread and then watched that video, I was completely inspired. What I want, in general terms, is something like what she's describing: totally engaged kids, learning at a challenging level, using all parts of their mind/body/soul to take in and make use of ideas. Kids who still love to learn when we get to the end of high school, who care passionately about good literature and who can confidently handle higher levels of math (I was a total victim of the 80's upheaval in math education and I have seriously been hampered ever since). I'd like them to have a solid background in Latin and a foreign language and be able to write really clearly and effectively (and enjoy doing it). As we get closer to the high school years, I think lab science is really important. Also, we are Catholic, and our faith plays a part in each day as well (I'm learning along side them, since I'm a convert still getting to know the tradition). I sort of envision it as a fabulous classical private school, but tailored for two kids at home. There's a schedule, and I try to keep to it, since I want to make sure we're progressing in most areas. I totally enjoy the days at home/work with my kiddos, but none of this is casual. I think it's the casual nature of some of what I see that I'm reacting against. 

 

As for where we are now, my little guys are not on lockdown here doing worksheets and old-school boxed curriculum:) We read aloud a ton (poems and stories every day), do math every day, work on handwriting and grammar through Brave Writer, and are using SOTW for history (looking at maps and reading supplemental stuff as we go). There's art and music too. It all takes us about 2-3 hours total per day, with a couple of short breaks in there, and then they are free to Lego, write, craft, play outside, etc. I have no idea if all of this will evolve in complexity as we go, but I certainly expect it will. I want them to leave home feeling as though I prepared them well for university and for life. I don't want their having been home schooled to be a hinderance to them. I don't feel stressed about it, necessarily, but I feel as though I have a serious job to do.

 

I live in a super relaxed, crunchy area, and I tend to find that we are looked upon as being quite formal/academic, which is odd, given that my kids do not spend oodles of time doing table work and drills. The spectrum on this stuff is fascinating to me. 

 

I can totally relate to this.  And I also relate to your comment that homeschooling is your job, and you take it seriously: I feel the same way.  What you do with your kids sounds lovely. You mention using Bravewriter, so I'll throw out there that Julie Bogart seems like a very relaxed homeschooler to me.  Her discussion of the difference between routines and schedules is spot on and is one way to get at the difference between being relaxed vs.being what you're calling casual/doing whatever.  Relaxed is having a regular routine, but being willing to drop it for the day if a cool field trip opportunity comes up.  But, you have your routine, and on normal days at home, that routine guides you to get things done.  If you haven't listened to her blogs, conference talks, etc. I highly recommend it, I bet you'd like what she has to say. 

[FO4UR]

 Sparks catch flame.  Keeping that flame gently nurtured when they are young reaps huge rewards when they are older.  

 

 

I work in faith upon this ideal.  

[8filltheheart]

I have actually read all of the Circe threads. As I said, I like educational theory:) And I saw lots of homeschoolers on those threads doing challenging, interesting things!

My original point was just that I feel like I've been coming across an attitude of gentle academics as being good enough, and for me, that's not quite what I'm aiming for. T

 

 

So, remember the Jenny Rallens video, the one about The Liturgical Classroom? After I read the Circe thread and then watched that video, I was completely inspired. What I want, in general terms, is something like what she's describing: totally engaged kids, learning at a challenging level, using all parts of their mind/body/soul to take in and make use of ideas. Kids who still love to learn when we get to the end of high school, who care passionately about good literature and who can confidently handle higher levels of math (I was a total victim of the 80's upheaval in math education and I have seriously been hampered ever since). I'd like them to have a solid background in Latin and a foreign language and be able to write really clearly and effectively (and enjoy doing it). As we get closer to the high school years, I think lab science is really important. Also, we are Catholic, and our faith plays a part in each day as well (I'm learning along side them, since I'm a convert still getting to know the tradition). I sort of envision it as a fabulous classical private school, but tailored for two kids at home. There's a schedule, and I try to keep to it, since I want to make sure we're progressing in most areas. I totally enjoy the days at home/work with my kiddos, but none of this is casual. I think it's the casual nature of some of what I see that I'm reacting against. 

 

As for where we are now, my little guys are not on lockdown here doing worksheets and old-school boxed curriculum:) We read aloud a ton (poems and stories every day), do math every day, work on handwriting and grammar through Brave Writer, and are using SOTW for history (looking at maps and reading supplemental stuff as we go). There's art and music too. It all takes us about 2-3 hours total per day, with a couple of short breaks in there, and then they are free to Lego, write, craft, play outside, etc. I have no idea if all of this will evolve in complexity as we go, but I certainly expect it will. I want them to leave home feeling as though I prepared them well for university and for life. I don't want their having been home schooled to be a hinderance to them. I don't feel stressed about it, necessarily, but I feel as though I have a serious job to do.

 

I live in a super relaxed, crunchy area, and I tend to find that we are looked upon as being quite formal/academic, which is odd, given that my kids do not spend oodles of time doing table work and drills. The spectrum on this stuff is fascinating to me. 

 

I wanted to come back to these 2 posts.  I haven't looked at the Circe thread since participating in it, but since I was an active participant in it, I find it very difficult to connect that ideas expressed in that thread with a strict focus on rigor.  From my distant perspective, my memories are that the focus was on the big picture view of educating a child to adulthood by nurturing the needs of the individual vs. meeting fixed, inflexible objectives.  It is the seeking of the truth, beauty, and the good that nurtures the body and soul.  It is the food the feeds the mind.  It is  the *not* making everything about purely educational outcomes that inspires the freedom (and rest and relaxation) to embrace that which is purely food for thought.  (For example, spending 11th grade lit for a focus on fairy tales.   :) Or not reading historical fiction with elementary age kids, but reading great children's lit instead.)  

 

I completely agree that the posters in the Circe thread were doing inspirational things.  But, those inspirational things were not limited to a "traditional way."  Challenging methods and traditional methods do not have to co-exist.

 

As far as the bolded in the 2nd paragraph, those are the objectives I have for my children.  And my kids have reached adulthood still pursuing their passions.  They are passionate about life.  They actively seek fulfilling opportunities.  (Unfortunately with the exception of our Aspie whose anxiety disables him and cripples his ability to cope with anything outside of rigid daily routine.)

 

FWIW, I don't read your description of your daily activities as meeting the draconian educational view of "rigorous."   :)  It doesn't sound that much different than what my K and 4th graders are doing this yr.  We get up by 530.  We leave the house by 550 and walk for 45 mins. (Well, the older kids and I walk for 45 mins.  The younger 2 walk 1/2 a mile and 1 mile respectively and then they play on the playground while we continue to walk.)  We attend daily Mass at 7.  We are home and doing school between 830-9.  We spend time on schoolwork.  They play.  I have clearly defined daily objectives for my 4th grader.  Her day isn't done until she finishes them.  (I don't write lesson plans for K b/c I never know how to gauge pace accurately.)  But those objectives are based on multiple factors.....not 4th grade guidelines.  They are about meeting her needs which are uniquely hers.

[lewelma]

 There's a schedule, and I try to keep to it, since I want to make sure we're progressing in most areas. I totally enjoy the days at home/work with my kiddos, but none of this is casual. I think it's the casual nature of some of what I see that I'm reacting against. 

 

Plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.

 

I plan.  I have a huge summer plan and then have a re-tweak each term (we have 4 10-week terms). But I never follow my plans.  Never.  I take what the day gives me and adapt.  I might plan for my ds(11) to write a paper a week, but then he gets really involved in researching an idea, so we spend time on research skills and documentation and his paper is put off a week.  Or there is a really cool optional side project in math which takes 3 times as long as I thought, so the new material is delayed. I believe that this kind of flexibility keeps learning alive.  I'm not chained to my plan; it is only a launching off point.  I allow and encourage 'child-led' learning within a general overarching plan.

 

But in addition to day to day adaptation, I have also made major adjustments to my long term goals.  My younger is really struggling with spelling, so we have dropped Mandarin this year because the pinyin sound-to-letter connection was mucking up his English spelling.  My older boy dropped Latin and history when it became clear that there was not time for everything. These changes were not what I had planned, but it became clear that they were needed. 

 

And sometimes strange things come from unexpected academic choices.  Like I mentioned before, my older wanted/needed to focus on math proofs for 1-2 years and dropped basically all English writing.  I was running pretty nervous when we got him assessed for which exams he would take this year (NZ system is more like the A levels in the UK).  Shockingly, he was assess 2 years above grade level, and at the 'excellence' level reserved for only 15% of kids in that grade.  It took me a while to figure out what had happened, but by spending 1.5 year writing two to four 1-page long typed math proofs each week (including summers) he had learned how to: structure an argument, take a web of ideas and write them linearly, write and intro and conclusion, and find supporting details for main points.  Well, funny how that sounds like an English essay.  So by letting him specialize, he was highly motivated and passionate about his work, and did way more writing than he ever would have if I asked him to write essays for English. And in the end, the writing skills were completely transferable to English.  

 

My point is that you don't want to get too caught up in your plan.  That often passion for learning is more important that ticking off the list of skills and content that need to be learned.  And that being adaptable can happen at the daily, weekly, or annual level.  Be open to serendipity.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Critterfixer]

 

My point is that you don't want to get too caught up in your plan.  That often passion for learning is more important that ticking off the list of skills and content that need to be learned.  And that being adaptable can happen at the daily, weekly, or annual level.  Be open to serendipity.

 

Amen.

[Momto4inSoCal]

Anyone have a link to the circe thread mentioned?

 

Btw I love this thread, reminded me once again of why I love this board.

 

To the original poster I am pretty new to this board also but I can say in then time I've spent on here I've been very encouraged and inspired. I love both the rest and rigorous post :) and I have also learned many people are working to achieve a great education for their children in different ways and achieving it. There really isn't a one size fits all. I've seen amazing unschoolers along with classical educators. I also recently heard of a group that identified as classical unschoolers. I sort of ignore the labels now. My goal is to follow Gods will for my kids and use whatever tools he puts in my path for that. Its been an amazing journey of self education while educating my children. Do what works for your family, we are all here to support each other no matter what path your homeschooling journey is taking you on.

[Penelope]

What I want, in general terms, is something like what she's describing: totally engaged kids, learning at a challenging level, using all parts of their mind/body/soul to take in and make use of ideas. Kids who still love to learn when we get to the end of high school, who care passionately about good literature and who can confidently handle higher levels of math (I was a total victim of the 80's upheaval in math education and I have seriously been hampered ever since). I'd like them to have a solid background in Latin and a foreign language and be able to write really clearly and effectively (and enjoy doing it). As we get closer to the high school years, I think lab science is really important. Also, we are Catholic, and our faith plays a part in each day as well (I'm learning along side them, since I'm a convert still getting to know the tradition). I sort of envision it as a fabulous classical private school, but tailored for two kids at home. There's a schedule, and I try to keep to it, since I want to make sure we're progressing in most areas. I totally enjoy the days at home/work with my kiddos, but none of this is casual. I think it's the casual nature of some of what I see that I'm reacting against.

 

As for where we are now, my little guys are not on lockdown here doing worksheets and old-school boxed curriculum:) We read aloud a ton (poems and stories every day), do math every day, work on handwriting and grammar through Brave Writer, and are using SOTW for history (looking at maps and reading supplemental stuff as we go). There's art and music too. It all takes us about 2-3 hours total per day, with a couple of short breaks in there, and then they are free to Lego, write, craft, play outside, etc. I have no idea if all of this will evolve in complexity as we go, but I certainly expect it will. I want them to leave home feeling as though I prepared them well for university and for life. I don't want their having been home schooled to be a hinderance to them. I don't feel stressed about it, necessarily, but I feel as though I have a serious job to do.

 

I live in a super relaxed, crunchy area, and I tend to find that we are looked upon as being quite formal/academic, which is odd, given that my kids do not spend oodles of time doing table work and drills. The spectrum on this stuff is fascinating to me.

I think this is wonderful, and it is also pretty much what I want for my kids and what I suspect many here do (except I am Protestant). This is pretty much where I feel TWTM is getting us, and why I appreciate it so much. :)

 

I'm just wondering where you see all the posts that make you think this board tends to unschooling and relaxed homeschooling. :? I'm not a newbie anymore, so maybe I just don't read things the same way.

 

Relaxed is such a subjective term, anyway. What feels rigorous to one person is relaxed and not enough for another. In fact, what you describe sounds pretty typical to me for an eight year old, and not intense at all. Brave writer, for example, to me, is super relaxed for LA and as written, much less than I am comfortable doing for grammar and writing after about second grade. That is not a criticism at all, and we can use many different curriculum aids and still get to the same place in the end. It is just an example of perceptions and how we may all be reading things on the board differently.

 

I also think that it is really hard to know what *exactly* people are doing in their own homes. This has probably already been said, but family cultures differ, and children differ. One child may not have required reading, but is reading stacks of classics on her own. One family may say they are relaxed for science and another family that is "doing" a science curriculum 3-4 times a week is thinking how horrible that is, when in reality the first family has a parent or two with a science background and is constantly reading about science and discussing it as experiences comes up in daily life. Those children may actually know and retain a much better knowledge of science than the others. We just don't know, but also don't need to worry about what everyone else is doing, either. We are all different.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So, remember the Jenny Rallens video, the one about The Liturgical Classroom? After I read the Circe thread and then watched that video, I was completely inspired. What I want, in general terms, is something like what she's describing: totally engaged kids, learning at a challenging level, using all parts of their mind/body/soul to take in and make use of ideas.

 

I live in a super relaxed, crunchy area, and I tend to find that we are looked upon as being quite formal/academic, which is odd, given that my kids do not spend oodles of time doing table work and drills. The spectrum on this stuff is fascinating to me. 

 

 

I loved that Jenny Rallens talk too. I have watched it several times since, and I find inspiration every time. My main take away, however, has nothing to do with rigor vs relaxed. I see her main points as distinguishing between purposeful and unintentional teaching practices and cultivating vs neglecting deep thought. Her talk reminds me to stay grounded, connected, communicative, intentional...to have high expectations, but to purposefully cultivate each child's abilities through my own intentional teaching. Putting those ideals at the top of my list of priorities as I teach my three kids actually keeps me relaxed, even as our homeschool gets more rigorous each year. 

[MomatHWTK]

My advice would be to create the school you want, but drop the comparisons to others.  As mentioned upthread, you can really have no idea of the nature of anyone else's schooling or their students.  Any assumptions based on conversations, casual observation or social media posts are just that- assumptions.  If you feel judged when you discuss your own teaching practices, just change the subject. 

 

I read the description of your current practices and future plans and it didn't appeal to me at all.  However, I am very confident in where my own children are as far as their intellectual development and life path.  I'm just not going to get there in the sameway you are, nor will my children end up in the same place.  Also, if you let them you may find that your children start to show you who they want to be.  Raising children isn't like making a cake, there's no set recipe and no guaranteed outcome even if you follow the directions perfectly.  Part of the joy is in adding the ingredients and waiting to be surprised by the outcome.  :) 

[enchantedhome]

Checking back in to say thank you for all the thoughts and ideas. I've gone back and bookmarked a bunch of threads on this topic to read and think about. I love to have my definitions challenged;)

[laughing lioness]

We are totally draconian and completely relaxed - we work hard and play hard. 

[quark]

Checking back in to say thank you for all the thoughts and ideas. I've gone back and bookmarked a bunch of threads on this topic to read and think about. I love to have my definitions challenged;)

 

And I love your attitude! :hurray:  I think you will do fine. Being so open-minded and willing to learn are hallmarks of a successful homeschooler imho. Good luck!

 

[BooksandBoys]

I think I am going to have to stop identifying myself as a CM homeschooled. As I (and those I reference) do it, it is extremely rigorous, but CM seems to be seen by most as an easygoing, relaxed method. That's so strange to me.

[Mrs. B]

I think I am going to have to stop identifying myself as a CM homeschooled. As I (and those I reference) do it, it is extremely rigorous, but CM seems to be seen by most as an easygoing, relaxed method. That's so strange to me.

To my knowledge, CM did school 6 days a week. People are trying to accomplish the done by noon part with afternoons free for exploration and handicrafts, but get upset when when they can't do it all by noon. They forget to add in the 6th day.

[FO4UR]

I think I am going to have to stop identifying myself as a CM homeschooled. As I (and those I reference) do it, it is extremely rigorous, but CM seems to be seen by most as an easygoing, relaxed method. That's so strange to me.

 

 

If you study CM and strive to follow her philosophy, call yourself what you are.  Perhaps it's seen by most as easygoing b/c others misunderstand her writings, or haven't even bothered to read them.  Do what you do and let people ask you questions, and answer them truthfully when they do.  That's how people learn.

 

 

 

 

Mrs.B, yes, CM did 6 day school weeks.  Spreading it out probably made a big difference.  I don't think my kids would comply quietly, however.  I have thought about trying it, but we have lots of other things scheduled on Saturdays.  

 

We don't finish by noon.  My independent worker can be done by noon most days except for group stuff.  If I only had one child, we could be done by noon.  But, I have 3 students and a toddler.  We did a reading lesson with the 9yo as the others were taking showers tonight. ;)   That said, while waiting on me for lessons, they do all the "afternoon" stuff...it's just sometimes at 10am instead of 1pm.  We have to work with what we have.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I know that's an odd way to start, but I feel like I've seen a glut of posts lately about unschooling/relaxed schooling/rest and I'm beginning to wonder if anyone is left who would consider themselves a classical/rigorous/TWTM homeschooler? I'm only at the beginning of my homeschooling career, and part of what convinced me to try homeschooling was the idea that I could give my children a higher level of education than is being offered at our local PS. For my husband, this all better be academically worth it, in other words. Lol. I totally read those relaxed posts, and absolutely learn from and appreciate the wisdom shared, but I'd also love to read more from those who homeschool in what you might call a more traditional way? Not sure how to phrase this....maybe you know what I mean?

 

I would not consider myself a "relaxed" homeschooler and I'm definitely not an unschooler if that is described as doing only what the child wants to do.  (There are so many definitions of "rigor" and "unschooling" not to mention "classical")

 

However long ago a board member described her approach as "classical unschooling" by which she meant that she made sure that there was time for each of her kids to avidly pursue their passions, but that she took it as her responsibility to expose them to history, literature, science and math so that they had the opportunity to discover those passions and the skills to pursue them.  I thought that was pretty cool.

 

Having said that, I frequently see new homeschoolers, especially of younger kids, who are looking for a magical set of workbooks or an online curriculum or an app that will teach reading.  I don't personally think that workbooks, online exercises or apps represent rigor.  Nor do I think they are the best option in many cases.  An app is not going to give a hug or suggest a cookie or a break playing outside.  An online curriculum only knows what it's programmed to do and cannot see when a child is frustrated or sad or ready to skip ahead.  

 

I don't think that I'm advocating a lack of rigor when I tell these parents that I think they are better served with read alouds, trips to the library, family time spent doing active things like hikes or gardening or going to museums.  

 

[i'll probably get slammed for saying this, but I think there are few if any apps I would give to an under 5 year old.  I almost cried the day I saw a mom with a baby carrier stroller combo with an iPad strapped on to where the baby could see it.]

[idnib]

The Circe Thread - asked for upthread

 

These are from my followed content and are some of my favorites

 

Just Curious Are Homeschool Curriculum Dumbing Down Like PS Ones?

 

Why you should work on TWTM skills 

 

S/O Nan in Mass, come elaborate!

 

How do you preserve the love of learning in your school?

 

Rigor Threads - Hey you asked! :)

 

If you knew then what you know now

 

:001_wub:

 

And after I told myself I was going to get to bed early tonight!

[rebcoola]

I don't know what we are I love reading educationally theory stuff.  I love coming to the TWTM boards because I think they help keep me balanced between relaxed and rigor for lack of better words.  Their are tons of amazing families on here doing amazing things and none of them are doing it the same way so that helps with the forge our path thing.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm not sure that gentle is really opposed to rigorous either - I would tend to naturally oppose it to "harsh". 

 

I think that often a much better question is what is developmentally appropriate.  Is it rigorous to be expecting K level kids to read, or pre-K - or is it just inappropriate?  Is it rigorous to spend time teaching formal grammar to kids in lower elementary, or is it just giving them a lot of desk time that won't be better for them in the long run than introducing it in upper elementary?

 

Quite a bit does depend on the child and the situation.  One of my kids learned to read in kindergarten.  One mastered reading at age 4.  One didn't have a full handle on reading until almost third grade.

 

Different kids with different situations.  The one who learned to read latest also moved every year from kindergarten through third grade.  Three of those moves were international relocations with months spent living in my MIL's basement until we got settled in our new home.  His preschool years were spent in a non-English speaking country.  He's in 8th grade now and read Hunt for Red October on his last campout, so things have worked out.

 

He needed time and a lot of consistent repetition.  He didn't need worksheets or a computer app or to have me put off reading lessons until he asked for them.  From the outside it might have looked non-rigorous because he wasn't a fluent reader yet.  Don't know.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

And here is where I would question you, as a caring sister sticking her nose where it doesn't really belong...but out of love, of course. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Do you really have the right/authority/wisdom to *aim* them anywhere?  That silly proverb about teaching pigs to sing comes to mind.  (What is it?  Don't try to teach pigs to sing.  You'll only drive yourself crazy and frustrate the pigs.)

 

If they are destined for the Ivy's, you aren't going to stop them by giving them a mediocre education that they build upon to take themselves to the Ivy's.

 

If they are destined for something less glamorous, you aren't going to prepare them for life by pushing them beyond their frustration level to get rigor.

 

 

I think we can agree that we both (probably all of us posting on this thread) are homeschooling to open wide as many doors of opportunity as possible.  And maybe I'm projecting and preaching to myself (rough morning here) but maybe it's futile to push a child through a door they aren't ready for, and may never be destined for.  Maybe they can see something better ahead and are waiting for their time? Maybe our expectations are in their way?

 

I keep going back to CM's imploring to feed these kids.  Feed their bellies, and feed their minds.  Did the lessons they completed today feed their minds? If not, then they left the table under nourished.  We left a day twiddling away at _____ instead of preparing them for the door they WILL walk through one day.  Even if ______ is a noble thing, if it doesn't feed the heart and mind of the child currently at the table, it was a waste.

 

I don't often see people here insisting that every student should aim for the Ivies if they want to be considered a success.  In the years I've spent reading the High School board, I've seem many lovely threads with suggestions for state schools or vocational programs or apprenticeships or school and work combos (as well as some extended threads detailing the journey to colleges within the hoop jumping of college sports eligibility as well as some very selective schools).

 

Homeschooling does open a lot of incredibly varied doors.  Part of parenting is helping identify doors that are a good fit for your kid.

 

What does sometimes trouble me is when I see homeschoolers who have bought into the idea that the mere act of homeschooling is in and of itself better than any public school.  I've seen it sometimes expressed as "any day homeschooling is better than a day in public school" or "all I have to do is give them a pile of books and they'll be better off."  I think this is unfortunate magical thinking.  Homeschooling alone does not make one uniquely prepped for highly selective college admissions.  

[Ms.Ivy]

I found this article really helpful.  In fact, I put "Rigor: Sustained, Focused Attention" on my wall.  It really confirms for me the truth of what C.M. taught about developing the habit of attention in children.  So now, I make sure we talk about why we are learning each topic, each day.  One of my kids really needs that discussion before he can pay attention.  And I try to incorporate other tips from C.M. about developing that habit.  

 

I specifically remember being interested in biology as a homeschooled teenager.  I was given my first non-math textbook -- a biology text.  I was expected to self-study, which I never minded.  But there was no discussion about what I was learning.  My textbook had review questions and quizzes at the end of each chapter, and I loved them!  I got a notebook and wrote out the answers to each question.  When my mom noticed I was doing more than just reading the book, she responded with her usual anxiety about it taking too much time.  She told me I couldn't waste all that time, just read the book -- we needed to get it checked off.  As I think back to it, I still remember the material I read in the first two chapters, when I had been writing out review notes.  I don't remember anything I read after that.  And that was the end of my science education.  

 

Now, as I work through science with my own kids, I realize how much I love it and wonder what might have happened if I had been able to pay close attention to one year of science in high school rather than simply checking off two years of science textbooks.  

 

So to me, that little experience kind of sums up for me what many people mean about teaching from rest.  Not that the biology doesn't ever get done, but whether it was loved along the way.  For those who follow parent-directed education methods like classical education, this might mean helping the student pay attention to what needs to be taught, and helping them love it.  For those who follow child-led education methods like unschooling, it might mean helping your child get deep into what they are naturally interested in learning.  

 

Unfortunately when the rubber meets the road, it's easy for some homeschooling parents to let education slip for a bit too long.  And then when you appear to be doing a more dedicated job of it, they get defensive and say things to put you down.  I've learned to stay vague about our homeschooling, even when asked questions about specifics.  Some of the comments I've gotten are unbelievable.  I feel like I have to keep my kids' academic interests secret, because people must imagine I'm standing over my kids with a whip while they study by candlelight until midnight without heat in a damp, stony cell.  And I'm over here thinking, "It's not my fault this homeschooling thing actually works!  They got that 90th percentile in math by spending 2 hours a week on math, not 2 hours a day!  And yes, my kids LIKE Latin!"  

 

I guess that was a bit of sidetracked rant.  :-D  

 

ETA: One of my goals for homeschooling is to teach my kids to be diligent about doing what is right.  So one my kids gets harder work in 3rd grade than the other kid did.  Because they each have their own God-given pace with which to run this race, and I want them to learn to make haste slowly.  Festina Lente. I don't care if they're a rabbit or a turtle.  They just need to learn to love doing hard things.  

 

[FO4UR]

I don't often see people here insisting that every student should aim for the Ivies if they want to be considered a success.  In the years I've spent reading the High School board, I've seem many lovely threads with suggestions for state schools or vocational programs or apprenticeships or school and work combos (as well as some extended threads detailing the journey to colleges within the hoop jumping of college sports eligibility as well as some very selective schools).

 

Homeschooling does open a lot of incredibly varied doors.  Part of parenting is helping identify doors that are a good fit for your kid.

 

What does sometimes trouble me is when I see homeschoolers who have bought into the idea that the mere act of homeschooling is in and of itself better than any public school.  I've seen it sometimes expressed as "any day homeschooling is better than a day in public school" or "all I have to do is give them a pile of books and they'll be better off."  I think this is unfortunate magical thinking.  Homeschooling alone does not make one uniquely prepped for highly selective college admissions.

 

 

I think you misunderstood the intent of my post.   :confused1:

 

I did say that I believe that the OP (and myself as well as the rest of us reading this thread) are likely homeschooling because we want to give opportunities to our children.  That is in the top 3 of reasons to HS for most of us, by my guess.

 

That is not the same thing as saying that all homeschooling magically creates opportunity.  It doesn't.  

[enchantedhome]

Ms. Ivy, that Circe article is fantastic! Thank you for posting it. The Hicks quotes he references at the beginning are wonderful for the big picture thinking I'm doing.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think you misunderstood the intent of my post.   :confused1:

 

I did say that I believe that the OP (and myself as well as the rest of us reading this thread) are likely homeschooling because we want to give opportunities to our children.  That is in the top 3 of reasons to HS for most of us, by my guess.

 

That is not the same thing as saying that all homeschooling magically creates opportunity.  It doesn't.  

 

I could have been clearer.  I didn't mean to ascribe the magical thinking comment directly to you.  

 

I haven't personally encountered what I thought you were describing as being frustrating, which I took to be a one size fits all Ivy League push rather than trying to find the best academic fit for the individual student.

 

What I have encountered (often, but not specifically from your post) is the homeschooling is always better, even when little gets done school of thought.