Fourth edition of TWTM...here's your chance to weigh in!

[Kareni]

I've read and benefited from all three editions of TWTM and from the boards here.  Thank you very much, Susan.

 

 

Some helpful resources which may or may not be in the books.  (I fear I have a memory like a sieve!)

 

Margaret Lial's math books including Basic College Math, PreAlgebra, and her various Algebra books.

The Lively Art of Writing by Lucile Vaughan Payne (this is a short and inexpensive resource even though it does have dated examples!)

Sequential Spelling

 

 

...  Expanded information on how to do a transcript.  Course descriptions?  ...

 

Also mention of keeping a reading list, of the homeschool profile, and the possible need of writing a letter of recommendation for one's child.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[luuknam]

I think one of the important things is to stay focused on the core purpose of the book. Reading through the requests in this thread, I think it would be easy to try to make a book that's everything to everyone (and which would, like some PP said, need to be 5 volumes long). I think some (other) PP suggested more recommendations on how to select a college etc. I know that my kids are too young for me to care about that myself currently, but still, it seems like that would be outside the scope of this book. Entire books have been written on that topic - I wouldn't want some other part of TWTM to be cut to create space to address the "which college to pick" info (and, realistically, other stuff would have to be cut, since I don't think the publisher would want to publish 5-volume work).

 

I agree with another PP that splitting the book in two parts, one on Birth-8th grade and the other on 9th grade and up or so would be a way to break things up. Not sure if the publisher would go for that though.

[KeriJ]

• Finally, I can't seem to internalize the LA recommendations in TWTM, specifically teaching writing across the curriculum and reading organically with history, rather than using basal readers with comprehension workbooks. I have repeatedly asked on the forums for advice in an attempt to get it through my thick head how to do WTM reading and writing. Links are below. I got answers all over the place on what expectations people had of their children--all using WWE or WTM methods! When I read your introduction to the WWE textbook, your system of writing made so much sense to me! But when I actually try to implement a reading journal, a history notebook, a science notebook, with narrations, dictation, and copywork in all, it just seemed like a LOT! And it seemed to squelch whatever fledgling love my son felt for those subjects to connect writing with them. If I just used your WWE workbooks however, I felt like the subjects were so disjointed, and I really wanted them to be interrelated and to save my own time. The WWE workbook dictations were too difficult for my struggling speller, and he disliked reading snippets of stories. I felt like a failure while using the workbooks, because some of it was too hard; but I also felt like a failure when I stepped away and just used the textbook writing across the curriculum, because it was so much more work for me, and I wasn't sure I was getting the results I would with the wkbk. HELP, please! What are appropriate expectations for how much to expect per day when writing across the curriculum, and what to do if the child is struggling with dictation, but not necessarily with narration or copywork? These are examples of my questions, but the links below flesh out the struggle more.

How to Transition to WTM reading and writing

How much narration per day/week?

ds7 says he's "not good" at history (or my failure to figure out writing across the curriculum per WTM)

How important is it that I write the narration down for my child?

WWE2 dictation struggles: what do I do?

Help me: appropriate expectations for 3rd grade reading and writing?

 

Thank you so much for TWTM and these forums!

 

The above is something that I always struggled with as well.  I even have a writing audio lecture and still can't seem to piece it all together for a do-able plan.  I end up going the CM route instead and just adding pieces of TWTM in this area.

[Hunter]

I think separating highschool into a separate book makes it scarier and more artificial than it needs to be.

 

SOME families choose to turn high school into what they choose to turn high school into.

 

Others want it to be more integrated with K-8. TWTM high school is all about its integration with the K-8 years, right?

[MrsMeunier]

Oh, I'm so excited to hear that there is a 4th edition in the works!!!  WTM is my "bible" when it comes to homeschooling and I so appreciate all the hard work you have put into it!

 

My children are very young (6, 4, 4), so I can only speak to that age group.

 

There is only one resource I would recommend replacing, and that is Slow and Steady, Get Me Ready.  It drove me nuts.  Kids mature and grow at such different rates that I found some activities frustrated my kids and others bored them.  The black and white format also made it tough to get excited about the activities and some of the materials they suggested using are not so easy to get a hold of anymore.  

Some resources I have used for preschool that I love:

What Your Preschooler Needs to Know Activity Books 1 and 2 - These are consumable workbooks that use stickers and cutouts to introduce letters, numbers, colors, etc.  My kids really enjoyed them!

Horizons Preschool KIt - This is a great kit for someone that is home all day with their first child.  Tons of great ideas that revolve around the days of creation, and it makes it easy to pick and choose what you want to do.  Totally too much for a mom with limited time or lots of other children to teach.

Horizons Math K, 1, and 2.  We love this math program.  Spiral approach, lots of review, but you don't feel like you've been beaten over the head (*cough* referring to early years of Saxon).

All About Spelling - a must add.  Goes great if introduced after (or in the second half of) OPGTR.  

Wile's Science in the Beginning, Ancient World, etc.  - a great way to study science along with the 4 year history cycle!

 

Some topics I would love to see discussed in the new edition:

How to prepare students headed for engineering and science majors that need the upper level math and sciences before college (what to do when Saxon and Apologia just aren't rigorous enough for your student)

Advice on choosing (or not) a "classical" co-op

Would also love to see more suggestions on readers to go along with OPGTR once you get to blends and beyond (Bob books don't do a good job with this - we used an some online reader (Progressive Phonics)).

 

Can't wait to see the new edition!

 

Blessings!

Missy

[Nan in Mass]

Maybe the college info could be on TWTM website, the way the research paper directions are? It would be easy to update that way, and it wouldn't take up room in the book. TWTM is somewhat international now, and this varies from country to country. I think at least Canada needs its own section. It could contain the info about what questions to ask colleges, how to deal with recommendations, and all the other things that one does towards the end of high school. The things which influence planning high school and recording what one is doing would need to stay in the book, of course, and I would put in, if it isn't already, info about gap years.

 

By the way, The Homeschooler's Guide to Portfolios and Transcripts was really, really helpful to me. It told me how to turn our hodgepodge into a coherent record of our education. I just wish I had read it when I began homeschooling because it contained a good section on how to solidify one's educational goals. At the beginning of high school, my husband and I made a list of what we wanted our children to know, and I took the school-related bits of that and turned it into a statement that I used as a guide for decision making the whole rest of high school (heavily influenced by TWTM lol). I regret not doing that when we first began homeschooling. It would have helped me make earlier decisions, as well. I used the statement when I had to write my half of the documents for college applications.

 

I can hear in my head a caution in SWB's voice about not trying to do it all, about how for most purposes, it is sufficient to provide only one verification of the Mummy grades for each subject, and not having to do AP bio AND a cc bio class. I don't know whether It just sounds like the sort of reassuring thing she would say.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

And I think that is the end of my list lol. I,m so sorry it got so long. And please forgive any real bloopers. I haven,t read much of the 3rd edition and it has been a long time since I read the other two. Who knows what I,ve misremembered!

 

Thank you so much for everything.

Nan

[Roadrunner]

I love that you discussed the curriculum you recommended in the third edition and didn't just give a list. I have been hoping you will express your thoughts about MCT grammar. I can't decide if it's enough. I value your opinion so much that I ended up buying Rod & Staff for this year even though we are fiercely secular (English lessons will be interesting this year!). We will alternate now between MCT and R&S going forward. 

[aprilleigh]

Oh, and another thing ... I know that in the past you have mentioned that you don't want to recommend things that are OOP. I say, don't worry about it. OOP things are just not hard to find anymore. If they are vintage, they can usually be found on Google Books. If not, then Amazon is your friend.

 

I have to disagree here. Some OOP things aren't hard to find, but others are either very difficult to locate, or cost a small fortune when you do manage to find one. Seriously consider removing all OOP resources unless someone can verify they are still relatively easy to find and affordable. A list of OOP recommendations isn't terribly useful otherwise, no matter how good they are.

[aprilleigh]

Hi, SWB:  Do you plan to include resources for computer science, electronics, and math competitions?  (If not, you should, lol.)

 

Computer Science:

Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner by Michael Dawson

AoPS Python online courses (intro and intermediate)

Amplify MOOC (now called "Edhesive")

 

Electronics:

Make: Electronics by Charles Platt (volumes 1 and 2)

EEME Teach Your Kids Electronics online class

 

Math Competitions:

See my post #9 in this thread.

 

ETA:  I wanted to add that all these activities were a wonderful addition to our homeschooling experience, and made it (IMO) superior to a traditional school curriculum.  

 

I would also add the Karel the Robot materials for computer science. They're quite good, and there are options for several modern programming languages.

 

I would also make mention of the programming capabilities of LEGO Mindstorms and the robotics competitions that users can participate in (given the expense, however, I wouldn't devote a lot of space to it - but it's an incredible system for kids that are really into this kind of thing).

 

For electronics, there are some fabulous Snaptricity kits available, and many of them include books that are essentially training manuals. We love them here.

[mamashell]

nm

[texasmama]

Susan, I would love to hear more of your "voice" in this edition.  I know it takes time and space to do so, but I just listened to the first webinar of your conference series on "This Isn't as Easy as I Thought:..." last night, and it was encouraging and practical and down-to-earth.   I left that recording feeling energized and encouraged.  I have to really gird up my yoga pants to read the book. :leaving:

[Rosie_0801]

I think one of the important things is to stay focused on the core purpose of the book. Reading through the requests in this thread, I think it would be easy to try to make a book that's everything to everyone (and which would, like some PP said, need to be 5 volumes long). I think some (other) PP suggested more recommendations on how to select a college etc. I know that my kids are too young for me to care about that myself currently, but still, it seems like that would be outside the scope of this book. Entire books have been written on that topic - I wouldn't want some other part of TWTM to be cut to create space to address the "which college to pick" info (and, realistically, other stuff would have to be cut, since I don't think the publisher would want to publish 5-volume work).

 

I agree with another PP that splitting the book in two parts, one on Birth-8th grade and the other on 9th grade and up or so would be a way to break things up. Not sure if the publisher would go for that though.

 

I think it is important to avoid making the book too American-centric, which a section on college entrance would necessarily be.

[luuknam]

I think separating highschool into a separate book makes it scarier and more artificial than it needs to be.

 

SOME families choose to turn high school into what they choose to turn high school into.

 

Others want it to be more integrated with K-8. TWTM high school is all about its integration with the K-8 years, right?

 

Well, I wouldn't recommend doing a book on high school alone. I'd do high school, college, and beyond in one book, and if both the birth-8th grade and 9th grade and up books are sufficiently big, it should be obvious to buyers that it's a two book set for size reasons rather than any other reason. That said, I agree that TWTM does have that thrice-repeating 4-year cycle thing from 1st-12th.

 

I'm not sure it'd make high school scarier to have it in a separate book, but I've never been scared by homeschooling high school (not anymore than any other grade, that is, and thinking about it I even might have the silly notion it might be easier in a way since the student bears more responsibility at that age).

 

I don't think all college-related advice automatically would be relevant to the US only, but there is that big difference between countries where students specialize right away in college and only take courses in their major and countries where they have a lot of core requirements that cover stuff they should've learned in high school but didn't because the US school system sucks (ahem). Then and again, many US students test out of those things by taking AP classes in high school and as such don't have many core courses they have to take in college either. W/e.

[aprilleigh]

OK, now that I've skimmed through the earlier posts and commented here and there, here are my suggestions:

 

I agree with several other posters that Slow and Steady, Get Me Ready was basically useless.

 

I pay much more attention to your chapters on language arts and history because that is clearly where you shine, but the math and science recommendations often made me cringe (I wouldn't say I'm STEM oriented so much as STEM strong (I'm a biology professor, so that's not a surprise), and DH and DS are both strongly STEM oriented).

 

I had fewer issues with the math sections than the science sections, but think the grammar-logic-rhetoric divisions simply don't fit math instruction.

 

As for the science sections, the grammar-logic-rhetoric division also feels artificial, but nowhere near as artificial as the biology-chemistry-physics-earth&space division (particularly for the pre-high school years), and the recommendations are badly skewed to YEC resources. I realize that those are more numerous and accessible to homeschoolers who want to apply these artificial divisions, but there are other resources available that do not cater to the YEC crowd too.

 

Also, it does a great disservice to the children not to take advantage of their curiosity - they are natural scientists and the science recommendations, particularly for first grade, are mind-numbing busy-work which seems to serve the language arts curriculum better than the sciences. Please don't kill their enthusiasm by making science all about facts - that's one of the major problems with typical public school science textbooks, and switching to real books to do the same thing doesn't actually help. Do keep recommending real books for the various sciences, however, as there have been some real gems in there.

 

I'd also like to note that the chapter for first grade science in the last edition was a horrible cut and paste of a previous edition that resulted in a how-to that didn't actually fit the new recommendations. I have no idea how that was missed, but I urge a complete rereading of each chapter with an eye to this kind of thing for the 4th edition (which I am very much looking forward to).

 

Additional information about internet usage and the pitfalls would be valuable these days. I realize you prefer to avoid screen time in general, and that's fine for grammar stage, but logic stage students need to be learning these things, and for rhetoric stage it's absolutely essential for research. Perhaps, for the budding STEM child, some mention of early access computer programming and robotics (Karel the Robot, LEGO Mindstorms, and similar) would be appropriate for logic stage, rather than waiting until high school when many of these kids have already moved past the early stages.

 

Flesh out the religion chapters, perhaps with just some book lists for each of the major religions (both for coverage and for comparative religion studies).

 

Addition of All About Spelling, All About Reading, Artistic Pursuits, Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding, Jacob's Ladder Reading Comprehension Program to the appropriate chapters (the only one I haven't used personally is All About Reading, because the publisher assured me that having used OPGTR and switching to All About Spelling would make it unnecessary, and that was completely accurate for us).

 

Perhaps include some of the wonderful programs out there that include your SOTW series as a spine. There are quite a few and some of them are excellent (History Odyssey, Mosaic History (Myths, Maps, and Marvels), etc.). Most of them I discovered by googling for SOTW schedules. Which reminds me...

 

Some guidance on how to fit 42 chapters (most with more than two sections in years 1-3) into a 36 week schedule would be super, although I realize the 4th edition is probably not the right place for this.

 

 

I think that's it, or at least it's all I can remember with DS bouncing around asking me if I'm done yet every five minutes. LOL

[rwilk]

OK, now that I've skimmed through the earlier posts and commented her and there, here are my suggestions:

 

I agree with several other posters that Slow and Steady, Get Me Ready was basically useless.

 

I pay much more attention to your chapters on language arts and history because that is clearly where you shine, but the math and science recommendations often made me cringe (I wouldn't say I'm STEM oriented so much as STEM strong (I'm a biology professor, so that's not a surprise), and DH and DS are both strongly STEM oriented).

 

I had fewer issues with the math sections than the science sections, but think the grammar-logic-rhetoric divisions simply don't fit math instruction.

 

As for the science sections, the grammar-logic-rhetoric division also feels artificial, but nowhere near as artificial as the biology-chemistry-physics-earth&space division (particularly for the pre-high school years), and the recommendations are badly skewed to YEC resources. I realize that those are more numerous and accessible to homeschoolers who want to apply these artificial divisions, but there are other resources available that do not cater to the YEC crowd too.

 

Also, it does a great disservice to the children not to take advantage of their curiosity - they are natural scientists and the science recommendations, particularly for first grade, are mind-numbing busy-work which seems to serve the language arts curriculum better than the sciences. Please don't kill their enthusiasm by making science all about facts - that's one of the major problems with typical public school science textbooks, and switching to real books to do the same thing doesn't actually help. Do keep recommending real books for the various sciences, however, as there have been some real gems in there.

 

I'd also like to note that the chapter for first grade science in the last edition was a horrible cut and paste of a previous edition that resulted in a how-to that didn't actually fit the new recommendations. I have no idea how that was missed, but I urge a complete rereading of each chapter with an eye to this kind of thing for the 4th edition (which I am very much looking forward to).

 

Additional information about internet usage and the pitfalls would be valuable these days. I realize you prefer to avoid screen time in general, and that's fine for grammar stage, but logic stage students need to be learning these things, and for rhetoric stage it's absolutely essential for research. Perhaps, for the budding STEM child, some mention of early access computer programming and robotics (Karel the Robot, LEGO Mindstorms, and similar) would be appropriate for logic stage, rather than waiting until high school when many of these kids have already moved past the early stages.

 

Flesh out the religion chapters, perhaps with just some book lists for each of the major religions (both for coverage and for comparative religion studies).

 

Addition of All About Spelling, All About Reading, Artistic Pursuits, Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding, Jacob's Ladder Reading Comprehension Program to the appropriate chapters (the only one I haven't used personally is All About Reading, because the publisher assured me that having used OPGTR and switching to All About Spelling would make it unnecessary, and that was completely accurate for us).

 

Perhaps include some of the wonderful programs out there that include your SOTW series as a spine. There are quite a few and some of them are excellent (History Odyssey, Mosaic History (Myths, Maps, and Marvels), etc.). Most of them I discovered by googling for SOTW schedules. Which reminds me...

 

Some guidance on how to fit 42 chapters (most with more than two sections in years 1-3) into a 36 week schedule would be super, although I realize the 4th edition is probably not the right place for this.

 

 

I think that's it, or at least it's all I can remember with DS bouncing around asking me if I'm done yet every five minutes. LOL

I basically just want to second all of this.  Particularly the bit about grammar stage science. I'm not advocating for getting rid of the fact focus; however, I think that some kids (my kid) learn best by reading and doing.  Plus, experiments can be fun, simple, and really good ways of making the material stick.  

 

I would also love to see good ways of incorporating e-learning. When to use it, how to use it, and when not to use it.  

 

As for specific resources, LOE has been wonderful as has MEP. We've also been really impressed with many products from the Critical Thinking Company for early logic skills. I'd also second the request for more material that is not YEC.  Or at least very clear labeling of secular v non-secular resources.  

[Nan in Mass]

Anno's Math Games seems like the thin powerful sort of book you like to recommend, if you haven't already. My youngest loved it. It is a kindergarten math book.

 

Critical Thinking Puzzles with Cuisinaire Rods by Charbonneau was a fantastic little book. It introduces algebra concepts to middle elementary aged children. For the first time, I understood why math teachers like those rods. Obviously, we just never did anything interesting with them in school lol. This would help those who asked for more math books, and the visual and hands-on people.

 

Also, for those who want more visually oriented recommendations, Graphic Storytelling and Visual Narrative by Will Eisner covers quite a number of literature and writing concepts in an appealing way. It is another short, powerful book.

 

I have no idea if any of these are oop.

 

Nan

[Ethel Mertz]

Another spelling resource - for those who already have their spelling rules down:

 

Simply Charlotte Mason: Spelling Wisdom. DS12 took one look at it and fell in love with it. Spelling Wisdom teaches spelling in the context of dictating material from well known writers. The student studies the passage during the week, taking careful note of difficult words to spell and then the teacher dictates the passage phrase by phrase. Of course, one could easily replicate this by using material already at hand (WWE/WWS would also be a great place to pull material from for spelling purposes). (I'm still keeping Spelling Workout in the background to review and integrate spelling rules as needed.)

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Here are some things I'd love to see in elementary (can't comment too much on logic or rhetoric yet.)

 

I am using FLL this year with my first grader, and I can't fully evaluate it yet. But the oral part of it and repetitiveness of it gave me pause. This particular child is one who would prefer a colorful workbook and doesn't like too much talking (my oldest loves oral lessons.) However, there is very little on the market for grammar as a standalone until second or third grade. If you know of any others, I would love to hear of them.

 

In math, I'd love to see more of your opinion on the mastery vs. spiral/incremental approach. Several good math programs have been crossed off my list because of the mastery approach. I feel my child needs the review to master material in math. The thoroughness of the teachers manual is another consideration. Horizon math is lauded, but I find their manual lacking. I would also love to see you discuss the conceptual thinking in math that is the buzzword in Common Core and elsewhere. I feel the trend is requiring abstract thinking in many areas before developmentally appropriate, and I am curious what you think. We use your recommendation of A Beka because I feel the facts and their order of introduction are important and supplement with some challenging problem solving. Thank you for including it.

 

I would love to see Writing and Rhetoric by Classical Academic Press included. We are loving this program and its creativity, and WWE was a perfect foundation for it. Classical Academic Press has quite a few products catching my eye, such as foreign language and logic. We have enjoyed Song School Spanish so far.

 

I would love to hear a little more on the importance of cursive writing, and how to transition into requiring cursive for all work. It seems I am trying to encourage cursive right as we are building the length in writing assignments that is slowing my child in his work. I Also agree with others on hearing more about writing across the curriculum.

 

I would love to see your assessment on Michael Clay Thompson's program. I feel Rod and Staff is so boring to look at, and Voyages in English is very expensive. I struggled with a grammar decision. I would have loved to include diagramming, but I am supplementing that with the MCT program. It seems many grammar programs are incomplete only covering a couple of years. We did Shurley for a while, but it started to get tedious after three years.

 

I'd also like to see you include some of the other history programs out there that are literature based and often include SOTW, such as Tapestry of Grace, Biblioplan, etc. Curious on your opinion of them and which ones are strongest. For the dialectic, especially, it becomes harder to lesson plan for history without a spine or plan like SOTW offered.

 

Regarding science, you might include Elemental Science as they have worked hard to offer a product that models WTM science methods. And please keep Science in a Nutshell. Science is my personal struggle, but these resources make it more manageable for me.

 

Thank you for all your hard work. We are looking forward to the new edition! We just moved away from Williamsburg and miss a lot of its beauty, but we don't miss the humid heat of summer. Stay cool in your beautiful slice of country!

[Nan in Mass]

Obviously, my homeschooling memory has finally kicked in lol.

In past editions, didyou write about how to make community college classes work? If not, you might want to include something about the idea being building a ramp from home education to college, not throwing the student in and waiting to see if he figures out how to swim. A ramp means providing plenty of support, then gradually backing off. So, if the student has never been to school before, this would mean signing up for a few easy classes, not a full schedule of comp, Spanish, art history, and chem. It might mean walking them in before classes begin and helping them find their classrooms, buying their books together, making sure they read the syllabus, encouraging them to sit in the front and ask questions and go to office hours, helping them schedule their work, and other things like that. You also might point out that if you want colleges to see the cc grades, you have to begin earlier than senior year.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Is Khan academy mentioned in the third edition? We used that when we needed a non-mum-teacher explanation of a math or science concept.

 

Nan

[Aretemama]

Being an old homeschooler, I only own the first edition, and it was my main guide for many years. Here are some of my failures, successes, and general experiences:

 

 

Science in a Nutshell - probably children's favorite hands on activity

Focus on Science - gave them exposure to science vocab, a beginning place to talk about evolution, and easy paperwork to turn into our charter school.

 

 

Saxon math - this seemed overwhelming to me as a new homeschool mom, but later I used it with great success.

Math-U-See and Singapore I used together for K-2 and that worked very well for us.

Art of Problem Solving - I know this is suppose to be only for 'advanced students' but I have to say that all students can benefit from exposure to this program, even if they take it later and/or slower than they are 'suppose to.' Just watching the videos can give them a different way of thinking about math, which can be helpful.

 

 

Spelling Workout - Overall my kids national test scores were in the 95+ percentile, but their spelling scores went down after using this :(

IEW TWSS and A,B,C - the dvds were a godsend

Writing Strands - Did not work for us, at all.

Writing with Skill - Love it! It would've solved our outlining problems that we had trying to outline the Kingfisher Encyclopedia back in the day. But, as you already know, for the younger grades it really has to be taught and it's much better starting at seventh grade. If you come out with another edition, please include bullet point instructions.

Rod and Staff - we loved this but First Language Lessons were better for us because of the consumable workbook with the easing into diagramming.

 

 

We own a million different Latin curriculum, but Latin for Children is my favorite. The older kids loved Cambridge Latin, but I wouldn't attempt to teach it without some grammar based Latin first.

 

 

That's some curriculum i can think of off the cuff, but I think its much more important to have the "how to homeschool" stuff in TWTM.

 

I think it would be very helpful to have a list of the different types of essays students should be able to write by high school, and maybe you have this now. When my kids started Great Books (we first used Escondido Tutorials Services but now use Schola Tutorials) they didn't know the difference between a narration, compare and contrast, etc... They had only had IEW and my old Lively Art of Writing and Strunk and White, which were all great, but didn't give them a grasp on the different expository essay forms.

 

 

I remember you warning us in a conference I attended about co-ops. But, personally as a parent, I wouldn't have stayed homeschooling if I didn't have the connection of a local group, especially when everyone at church thinks your crazy, probably watching tv all day while eating bonbons, or thinks your kid must be some academic superstar and you are judging them for sending their kids to public school (like I care!). I needed that as a mom and my kids needed to know other homeschool kids. Yes, it did eat up a lot of time, but it was worth it for us. On the downside of groups, some of them tend to have a money-making, kind of pyramid-scheme facet to them, not just pay for the class your child is taking. I know that the Thomas Jefferson Education group we were involved with had that, and from what I've read Classical Conversations might be the same type of situation.

 

So, even though I feel that it was essential for us to have our group time, how to schedule co-ops and homeschool learning centers are one of the biggest issues that needs to be addressed to the new homeschooler. I'm sure it is not this way everywhere, but where homeschooling is popular the problem isn't finding classes, the problem is the kids are signed up for classes all day every day. They have no time at home to do homework or reading. They simply go from class to class to class. The current generation of homeschool moms I work with have no idea of how to schedule or teach at home. 'The Fear of Missing Out' rules their lives. So, I would highly recommend a section on scheduling and how over scheduling is detrimental to a child's education. 

 

Speaking of scheduling, a simple, inexpensive 4 or 8 subject school planner was essential to our success before they hit high school. It was the only way I could keep track of everything. We had one for each child and it was the only way I kept organized when I had all the kids homeschooling at once.

 

One issue I've experienced lately as a teacher is the growing fundamentalist worldview in homeschooling. I guess it was about fifteen years ago when TWTM and Story of the World came out and it seemed that very few homeschoolers objected to the broad reading lists that included fairy tales, fables, fantasy, science fiction, pagan authors of the past, etc.... But, now in my classes I can't even use something as basic as a fairy tale because someone's parent objects. Younger parents have objected to fairy tales, Aesop's fables, Shakespeare, Narnia, anything Tolkien, etc.... Luckily I don't have this problem with the older classes, but it is something that's happening in the homeschool community that could definitely be addressed.

 

*edited because I realized I put down Spelling Power when I meant Spelling Workout.

[Pen]

I was just looking through my TWTM (3rd edition) while thinking about next year.

 

I am wondering why Euclid's Elements is included under Biology study page 551, page 554?  It seems like it would make more sense under Geometry.  

 

I know this is controversial, but I strongly think that Darwin's The Origin of the Species should be included under Biology books for high school if you are including any such texts at all.  Leaving it out entirely as seems to be the case (or at least I do not see it there anywhere) seems wrong.  And it makes me wonder if all the science choices are being made to not offend people who do not believe in evolution.  I think Darwin is as important to Biology as Newton and Einstein are to Physics.  What is the reason for leaving Darwin out?

[Michael12]

If one is opposed to reading the classics (fairy tales, Aesop, Shakespeare), why on earth pretend to do classical education? Surely there is another homeschooling guide book somewhere that fits with that conception.

 

There seems to be a great deal of interest in special needs kids and how to make TWTM work for them. But it would seem that for others, those sections would not apply. I wonder if that is another separate book waiting to be written (by someone with expertise in the area, of course). Clearly there is a well-defined audience who would readily purchase such a thing.

 

 

[mamashell]

 

There seems to be a great deal of interest in special needs kids and how to make TWTM work for them. But it would seem that for others, those sections would not apply. I wonder if that is another separate book waiting to be written (by someone with expertise in the area, of course). Clearly there is a well-defined audience who would readily purchase such a thing.

 

nm

[amy58103]

I don't have any BTDT experience, but it appears that the high school science recommendations need a revamping.  

 

The Wiley Self-Teaching Guides do not provide enough discussion of concepts and example problems.  Here's a recent thread with more details:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/558341-wiley-self-teaching-guides-have-you-used-them-reviews-please/

[Butter]

There seems to be a great deal of interest in special needs kids and how to make TWTM work for them. But it would seem that for others, those sections would not apply. I wonder if that is another separate book waiting to be written (by someone with expertise in the area, of course). Clearly there is a well-defined audience who would readily purchase such a thing.

 

Technically, there are several sections that would not apply for various people.  I don't have any kids in the preschool age anymore for example.  Some people only have high schoolers left.  When I first read TWTM years ago I only had a preschooler and an early grammar stage kid.  The first time I read the book I read the parts that applied to my kids and skipped the rest (actually, I skimmed a little and was really overwhelmed until I realized that at 6 I didn't need to worry at all yet about educating her 16).  When I re-read the book in March I skipped the stuff on very early education and read the parts that applied to my particular kids at the ages they are now.  I would suspect those without SN kids would simply skip a section on making TWTM work with SN if they weren't interested.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I know this is controversial, but I strongly think that Darwin's The Origin of the Species should be included under Biology books for high school if you are including any such texts at all.  Leaving it out entirely as seems to be the case (or at least I do not see it there anywhere) seems wrong.  And it makes me wonder if all the science choices are being made to not offend people who do not believe in evolution.  I think Darwin is as important to Biology as Newton and Einstein are to Physics.  What is the reason for leaving Darwin out?

 

Not left out. Great Books list, p. 522.

[Hunter]

I don't have any BTDT experience, but it appears that the high school science recommendations need a revamping.

 

The Wiley Self-Teaching Guides do not provide enough discussion of concepts and example problems. Here's a recent thread with more details:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/558341-wiley-self-teaching-guides-have-you-used-them-reviews-please/

I've spent quite a bit of time today rereading 1st edition science, and as a whole, I think it's excellent, and a welcome alternative to some other methods, and completely integrated with the rest of TWTM.

 

I haven't read 2nd and 3rd edition science in awhile.

 

If I want to read about STEM methods, I'd want to read another book. When I read TWTM science I expect to read exactly what I'm reading.

 

I would be deeply disappointed and confused and overwhelmed if TWTM science was changed. I've been reading and tweaking this for 16 years.

[Pen]

 

Not left out. Great Books list, p. 522.

 

 

Aha. Well, it is keeping some nice company there in the Great Books section! I hate to suggest in some sense "demoting" it, but maybe it deserves a cross listing over in the science books section. As it stands it seems to be one of the few science related books over in the Great Books history and reading area, and I am not sure I would think to look in a history and reading section for things related to science if a bunch of titles did not make me realize that it would be a likely spot. Or perhaps let other books that might now be read mainly for their historical value such as Hippocrates' and Euclid's works also be listed under Great Books, not under the "science" section.

 

This is another one of the reasons that I think having the "how to" parts of TWTM be at the front and then specific recommendations be at the back might be helpful. One might be more likely to find a particular work if they (books, curriculum suggestions, etc.) are found near each other than if one has to look at a section that does not seem to be applicable at a particular moment.

 

This might be especially true for people with those troublesome learning challenge kids and "2E" kids, who are progressing at different uneven levels such that a parent (me!) might be looking at high school science section ideas, but not think to look at grade 12 Great Books.

 

Incidentally, someone said she did not like the ideas of specific times for different subjects to be included. I do. I think it is helpful to have an idea of what to spend on what subject--and also while on the subject of learning challenges, I think it is another potentially useful guide to knowing if a child needs an intervention. If the amount of time does not seem realistic to make forward progress in a subject, or if something is supposed to be "easy" like learning to read, but is not for a particular child that could be an indication that something may be amiss.

[Crimson Wife]

Homeschooling curriculum is everywhere, I agree, but so much of it is difficult to use, or half the book covers things we've done before, or the emphasis is wrong for a classical education, or it is uninteresting, or tries to be too interesting and fails and just winds up being extra work where we would be better off with something dry but efficient. (My children did not appreciate this last at all. Schoolwork was schoolwork and they knew some was just going to be no fun. They wanted that part to be efficient.) TWTM recommendations had a much better chance of succeeding for us. I would hate to see them removed. More specific instructions for modifying a curriculum to work for your particular children would be nice, though. I did eventually figure this out, but it took years.

Nan

 

The bolded is a biggie. It's particularly a concern now with all the emphasis on Common Core and so many newbie HSers worried about meeting them.

 

[Crimson Wife]

There is a great deal of interest in how to make TWTM work for special needs children because it's been claimed to do so and most of the members on the learning challenges forum discovered their children's special needs because their child wasn't able to do TWTM as written. There has been a significant increase in the amount of children being diagnosed with special needs such as ADHD, ASD, Dyslexia, etc. Separating their needs into another book would further isolate them instead of educating others about how to recognize they have a different learner.

 

Not to mention that many of us HSers have both typical and SN kids. I was lucky enough to have discovered this forum prior to my youngest being diagnosed with her SN's, but if she'd been my oldest rather than my youngest, I wouldn't have known where to turn for advice on helping her myself rather than just leaving it up to the "experts".

[Pen]

 

I've spent quite a bit of time today rereading 1st edition science, and as a whole, I think it's excellent, and a welcome alternative to some other methods, and completely integrated with the rest of TWTM.

 

I haven't read 2nd and 3rd edition science in awhile.

 

If I want to read about STEM methods, I'd want to read another book. When I read TWTM science I expect to read exactly what I'm reading.

 

I would be deeply disappointed and confused and overwhelmed if TWTM science was changed. I've been reading and tweaking this for 16 years.

 

 

 

Maybe there could be suggestions of resources for learning about STEM programs included. Though there may be a big area that lies between STEM and TWTM.

 

I don't have 16 years of familiarity with the current and prior editions of TWTM such that I would feel disappointed etc. if there were to be significant changes in the next edition (and if there are not going to be significant changes is there really any point in it? And then too, couldn't anyone who is familiar with the older editions just stick with them and not change if will cause confusion, disappointment and overwhelm?) Moreover, though, I think that I feel differently about this just from the perspective of "Joining the Great Conversation" with regard to science understanding. I want my son and his generation to be able to join that conversation circa 2015 and onward, or, well, at least circa the fall of the USSR, same as the SOTW perhaps on the grounds that things more recent than that do not have enough perspective yet (such as are the proliferation of GMO's really wonderful or terrible) -- not circa 1950, let alone circa ancient Greece. Decisions in the realm of science are every bit as important as decisions in the realm of politics and sometimes, or even often, hard to keep separate.

 

I had been wondering if foreign language was really needed given that by the time my son is an adult it may well be that Artificial Intelligence will provide excellent translators for conversations, but was convinced by TWTM that what learning another language does for thinking is important anyway, even if by the time he is an adult he will have an electronic simultaneous translator gizmo that resembles something out of current sci-fi.

 

I believe that this is also true for scientific literacy, that it is needed as much as possible by everyone, rather than being left to a small cadre of STEM professionals, and that scientific literacy is important to thinking in ways similar to, and no less important than, language and logic are.

[Colleen in NS]

Aha. Well, it is keeping some nice company there in the Great Books section! I hate to suggest in some sense "demoting" it, but maybe it deserves a cross listing over in the science books section.

 

 

 

In my 2nd ed., it is listed in the "Source Readings" section of the rhetoric stage science section of the book.  There is a short list for each of the sciences, but then there is an expanded list, and the Darwin book is on it.  Does that exist in your 3rd. ed.?

 

[Carrie12345]

First, thank you.  My copy is falling apart, and I like new and shiny.  :drool:

 

I don't know if I'm going to be able to convey this the way I hope, but I'm going to try.

The "special needs" aspect has been a tough spot for me.  When I finally began homeschooling, I jumped in knowing I was working with ASD and was confident in adapting our overall plan to accommodate ds's needs. When I folded in a neurotypical kid, I was confident in pretty much following the given outline.

 

My next two kids are somewhere in between.  They can't complete the recommended outline as presented, but it would be a disservice to them and their particular needs to follow the recommendation to remain in a stage and stretch it out to mastery.  My 12yo is thriving with logic stage materials despite her struggles with handwriting, dictation, and math facts.  I suspect my 8yo will be quite similar.

Of course it's ultimately my responsibility to recognize, understand, and implement appropriate practices, but it still sort of bugs me to have "But that's not what SWB says" in the back of my head.  :crying:   I'm a big girl and tell that part to shut up, but newbies of "different learners" (as opposed to obvious and diagnosed "special needs") may not be comfortable venturing too far outside of the box.

[Aretemama]

If one is opposed to reading the classics (fairy tales, Aesop, Shakespeare), why on earth pretend to do classical education? Surely there is another homeschooling guide book somewhere that fits with that conception.

 

My thought was that not everybody who reads TWTM is necessarily sold on classical education. I would assume that many there are people new to homeschooling who will read a variety of books to understand how to homeschool, and wouldn't it be nice to have a solid of defense of not only why you shouldn't be afraid to read all of these books, but why it's a really, really good thing?  If the reader had encountered the opposite argument somewhere else, maybe someone at church, a website, or a different homeschool guide, then maybe TWTM might be the place where she encounters some common sense. 

 

*edited for spelling

[u2006kids]

Make an audio book too....

[LauraBeth475]

Does anyone know what the deal is with this product? Their web page appears to be dead.

 

(I'm not crazy about SSGMR either, but it's not super easy to find a replacement that doesn't cost $$$$.)

 

SWB

 

I purchased my copy on CurrClick, but I've also seen it on Rainbow Resource.

 

The con is definetely the price.  It's about $30-35 a year.  I like it because it is gentle and more developmentally appropriate than a lot of preschool programs, but still laid out in an organized daily schedule with a couple different activities each day

 

Here is a link to the pdf versions where you can see samples: http://www.currclick.com/browse/pub/444/Flowering-Baby-LLC

[Susan Wise Bauer]

If you're an MCT fan (or hater), could you weigh in here?

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/558533-mct-language-arts-convince-me/

 

:)

 

swb

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I thought of a couple more things:

 

1. I don't really want to address this too much, but with Common Cire so mainstream, I think it might be good to address the differences between classical education and Common Core, especially when homeschoolers sometimes have to take the same standardized tests as public school students. Writing standards in early elementary before appropriate are especially emphasized.

 

2. There is a lot of curricula available that incorporate many of the classical ideals in their history programs, but they follow a different cycle than the four year cycle, ranging from three to six years. I'd love to hear a brief discussion on whether the four year cycle is sacred or not and why.

[EmilyGF]

It'd be great if you'd let Bernard Nebel's philosophy color your science chapter.

 

When I read history and writing, I think, "SWB is an expert. I need to listen to her. I don't know about this."

 

When I read science, I think, "This isn't her expertise and this isn't how I think it should be taught."

 

Emily

[EmilyGF]

I think Sequential Spelling should be listed as a spelling resource.

 

It is open and go and has been amazing for my daughter who wilted under rules based spelling. We spend 10-15 minutes per day in spelling. 

 

I think it should be listed as one of the rules-alternatives programs. While it is a list program, the lists are ordered in such a way that the kid intuits the rules. While the explicit instruction isn't there, the setup of the lists helps teach patterns.

 

"If your kid groans and goes into slow motion every time you take out your rules-based spelling, and doesn't show any improvement, give this a try. "

 

Emily

[luuknam]

My next two kids are somewhere in between.  They can't complete the recommended outline as presented, but it would be a disservice to them and their particular needs to follow the recommendation to remain in a stage and stretch it out to mastery.  My 12yo is thriving with logic stage materials despite her struggles with handwriting, dictation, and math facts.  I suspect my 8yo will be quite similar.

 

Of course it's ultimately my responsibility to recognize, understand, and implement appropriate practices, but it still sort of bugs me to have "But that's not what SWB says" in the back of my head.  :crying:   I'm a big girl and tell that part to shut up, but newbies of "different learners" (as opposed to obvious and diagnosed "special needs") may not be comfortable venturing too far outside of the box.

 

I didn't read it like that. I read it as "some kids just need those stages stretched out because they're not ready to handle higher level thinking at the normal ages, so don't force them into the next stage at x years old if they're clearly not ready".

 

That said, I don't recall the exact stuff (even though I read the book about a month ago), so maybe it wouldn't hurt to clarify that stuff some. I don't think SWB means that you should keep a non-neurotypical kid in the grammar stage indefinitely if the kid just can't get the handwriting/dictation/math facts down to mastery but clearly has all the other skills needed. I'm straying into speculation here, but I'd think she'd recommend continuing to work on handwriting/dictation/math facts while starting with the logic stage and introducing subjects like logic etc. Some kids can't hack logic etc at 10yo (5th grade), and need to work at more basic stuff for one or more extra years. But whether a kid's handwriting looks pretty (or even legible) really doesn't have much if any impact on the kid's intellectual skills for handling logic stage material.

[Maleka]

Hello,

 

My name is Martha Saunders and I am the founder of Flowering Baby.   A friend told me about a few posts on WTM regarding our program.  I have homeschooled our son since he was three, officially, but have made a strong effort to work with him each day since he arrived home at 6 mo.  As the child of a kindergarten teacher and early childhood expert I had a great source for ideas to do with our son.  I had tried to get my mom to write a book for years to help families with little ones but she was too busy working with babies and toddlers to write.  After tons of reading and research I wrote the program and had her edit it with her 50 yeas of knowledge and experience I can assure you it is a complete developmental program for children birth to five.  With all that said I found having a company and doing conventions, the website, etc was more than my schedule allowed to do it right.  I closed the website down a few months ago but still sell our products at Rainbow Resource and Currclick.  However, we will not be reprinting any cd's and plan to stop selling the products altogether.

 

I think it is a wonderful program that covers every developmental area a child needs to get a great start before 'real school' begins.  It is organized and easy to follow and requires very little prep work on the part of the parent.  There are easy to follow lists for each month of any supplies and books.  We made a strong effort to only require things you can easily find, and probably already own.  For the ages 3-5 there are themes (like mini unit studies) for your child to delve into various topics a little deeper.  The price is extremely reasonable considering what you get.  We have had many preschools and orphanages utilize our program with great success.  

 

 

Thank you for your interest in our products!

Martha

[Hunter]

When I read science, I think, "This isn't her expertise and this isn't how I think it should be taught."

 

When I read the science, I think, "this is how a real mom taught science at home so that it integrates with the other subjects into a whole curriculum, where all the parts play nicely together.

[texasmama]

I think Sequential Spelling should be listed as a spelling resource.

 

It is open and go and has been amazing for my daughter who wilted under rules based spelling. We spend 10-15 minutes per day in spelling. 

 

I think it should be listed as one of the rules-alternatives programs. While it is a list program, the lists are ordered in such a way that the kid intuits the rules. While the explicit instruction isn't there, the setup of the lists helps teach patterns.

 

"If your kid groans and goes into slow motion every time you take out your rules-based spelling, and doesn't show any improvement, give this a try. "

 

Emily

Sequential Spelling was a life-saver here with my SN kid due to the self-correcting aspect.  

[Nan in Mass]

I can't figure out how to phrase this. I am sure there is a way to do it using SN vocabulary. Please, please don't mistake my lack of vocabulary for lack of sympathy if you are a SN family. I don't want to hurt anyone but I think it is important to say this. Myaybe someone can figure out what I mean and translate it into the proper language? Or maybe this just isn't generally important enough to anyone outside my family to bother... Anyway, here goes...

 

I have atypical learners. In a regular elementary school classroom, they struggled. They were bright enough verbally that teachers are puzzled by the struggle but not particularly worried about them. Or they didn't listen to them and thought they were lazy or unbright. As a parent, I knew they weren't brilliant, just sort of brightish, and also wondered why I was having to help so much with assignments. When we began homeschooling, some things in TWTM logic stage were difficult, if not impossible. We muddled through as best we could, with me just thinking I had children who were wired differently and there wasn't anything I could do about it. Then we arrived at the point where I had to teach study skills, college survival skills. And suddenly, I could see that TWTM had been teaching those skills all along. I just hadn't recognized them. If I had, I would have backed us up when we first began TWTM to the point where my children began to struggle and worked forward from there. (That's what I did in math. i did it with great confidence in math, convinced that no matter how unmathy one of my children was, there was no reason that with proper grounding, he couldn't get through precalc by the end of high school. He just needed his math thinking straightened out and he needed a ton of practice with the basic skills so he could use them easily and automatically.) The difference between our elementary school and TWTM was that TWTM TAUGHT those skills, whereas the elementary school just had the children start using them without actually teaching them. For many students, this seems to work fine; they figure it out and avoid a lot of dry drill. Mine needed TWTM approach. They will always be a bit different, one especially so. They aren't likely to be historians or anything else that requires one to use academic skills daily or especially quickly. They can manage, though. So - my question is this: How do you tell an atypical learner for whom struggling mightily through TWTM is the answer from one for whom TWTM just isn't going to work no matter how much effort is applied? I'd hate to see parents like me giving up on TWTM. (And for those who think I might have imagined all this, An educational psychologist confirmed the atypicalness of my most atypical learner and was thrilled with the results of my bumbling through TWTM with him. Astounded would be a better word for it.)

 

I know this is just one family's experoence, but surely we aren't alone in appreciating having a program that actually teaches those important academic skills, and does it in such a way that the child still gets to do fun, interesting things and have some say in what they are studying and learning, despite some things being a horrible struggle?

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought of a couple more things:

 

1. I don't really want to address this too much, but with Common Cire so mainstream, I think it might be good to address the differences between classical education and Common Core, especially when homeschoolers sometimes have to take the same standardized tests as public school students. Writing standards in early elementary before appropriate are especially emphasized.

 

2. There is a lot of curricula available that incorporate many of the classical ideals in their history programs, but they follow a different cycle than the four year cycle, ranging from three to six years. I'd love to hear a brief discussion on whether the four year cycle is sacred or not and why.

 

The point about Common Core is a good point.  Especially parents who are coming out of public schools (vice homeschooling from the beginning) will have heard a lot about the importance of CC.  

 

IMHO, it also applies to a discussion of a possible dichotomy between classical education and a stem focus.  It seems like there is a general idea that there is an either or choice to be made between reading and discussing great books and engaging in strong science and math studies.  

 

I'm not thrilled with some of the science options out there for homeschooling, but there are also some good picks.  Having a student who intends to major in science, math or computers doesn't mean that they need to jettison a classical education.

[Nan in Mass]

...IMHO, it also applies to a discussion of a possible dichotomy between classical education and a stem focus.  It seems like there is a general idea that there is an either or choice to be made between reading and discussing great books and engaging in strong science and math studies.  ...  Having a student who intends to major in science, math or computers doesn't mean that they need to jettison a classical education.

 

I agree.

One STEM-friendly modification to great books that we did was to do scifi instead of moderns for the last year.  Other than that, we did great books.  But we did it WTM fashion, rather than use somebody else's classical great books curriculum, or use a public school literature textbook.  And I picked the books carefully.  Otherwise, it wouldn't have worked.  It was a great option for not-very-literature-oriented boys. : )

 

Nan

 

ETA - I think the great books are powerful.  Many people have educated themselves just by reading them.  Not by dissecting them or doing anything else with them, but just by reading them.  They have persisted because many of them are easy and entertaining to read.  If you have a STEM child, you might (or you might not) have to pick the easier ones rather than the harder ones.  There were many things on the list that my children were just not going to get through without a bigger battle than I was prepared to face.  They did, however, happily, happily read a number of the selections, even though we are a STEM family.  It took faith on my part, though, faith that these books, most of which were unfamiliar to me, were worth reading, and faith that history had chosen things that WERE readable by ordinary people, despite their intimidating sounding titles.  I kind of wish the chapter on great books had started like the chapter on learning to read, with something saying this takes time and concentration, but that it isn't that hard.  I also wish it had followed up the bit about not being able to read all the books by a bit saying that in that case, we might as well pick the selections that our children would most enjoy or find the most useful.  I did that out of necessity, but a bit more confirmation that this is an ok approach, especially for STEM kids, might have been nice...  Or maybe it was there and I just missed it.

[Laurel-in-CA]

I agree about some discussion of common core vs. stem focus vs. humanities focus...it's really a combo of your kids gifting/needs and your own skills and philosophy of education where you come out on these things.

 

With regard to schedules, just the idea of a daily checklist, modified to reflect that day's activities, was a wonderful thing for me. I didn't so much need the hours per subject, but it helped to hear about doing some subjects only a day or two a week, having a day for "out of the house" stuff, leaving time for interest-based free reading, and having the kid start doing his/her own checklist at a certain age/skill level. Every year, for each kid, I would color code the stuff they could do on their own (in Explode the Code, do the next 3 pages, or 1 lesson of SWO, etc.) and which needed mom help.

 

This checklist based on weekly activities is still the way I'm doing things w/my last child. Now that she's in middle school, we're having a student/teacher meeting on Sun. afternoon or Monday to go through her assignments and have HER schedule them. I think a reminder that the student needs to develop organizational skills and some resources for doing so would be great. We've enjoyed Covey's 7 habits of highly effective teens.

 

You might also mention when you talk about the Teaching Company that some of their materials are available through Amazon - we bought Superstar student that way and were able to watch one/week as part of 6th grade. A lot of this stuff is moving to online or downloadable.