Privilege comic...

[creekland]

This is a sadly predictable thread.

 

Just getting some of this  :lurk5: myself!

 

It's even more interesting (to me) since I see all sorts of variations with kids/parents at the school where I work and know there is no single easy answer, but it's fun watching folks try to turn their thoughts into one.

[LucyStoner]

I was about to respond to this thread and then I remembered.

 

I remembered where I am posting. I remembered who all posts here. I remembered that I have better stuff to do with my time.

[Momling]

It wasn't until our family started doing foster care that I began to really, truly understand privilege. My foster children are without exception headed straight for a future of the same problems that plague their parents and grandparents and probably generations before them: poverty and addiction and victimization and crime and teen pregnancy. Those kids are set on a really rough path by birth and early neglect and abuse. It is cruel to imagine that the playing field is equal in any way whatsoever.

[creekland]

There's a reason I consider life's birthplace (and family) a lottery that one wins or loses.

 

IMO, while many in developed countries don't win as much as others, they don't lose as often as other residents here think.  The true losers are the poor in not-so-developed countries.

 

Anyone wanting decent shows to watch with their kids to give them an idea of what some experience with their birth lottery results could consider "Deadliest Journeys."  I believe this is a Nat Geo production (could be wrong!).  I know we watch it on Pivot and I think many episodes are available online.

 

A quick google tells me if one has cable, they can watch episodes via Pivot for free online.  I know we have Dish and get it, so satellite might work too:

 

http://watch.pivot.tv/pivottv/video/deadliest-journeys-guinea-a-forgotten-people/1054

 

That said, I still know some who lose out, esp for being in a developed country.

 

As with any lottery, there's a range of winners and losers.  As with any lottery, we have no say in what result we get.

[.Michelle.]

There is a game like that, about how to survive as a poor person.

 

http://playspent.org

 

I was doing pretty well with only a few days to go when the game charged me for annual registration for my car for the second time. :glare:

[luuknam]

I'm pretty sure the privileged guy was read to by his parents, too!  http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417997/professor-if-you-read-your-kids-youre-unfairly-disadvantaging-others-katherine-timpf

 

Um, whoa at the link. I don't think it would do disadvantaged people any good if I'd stop reading to my kids (and doing other, similar things... I don't even read *to* my kids that often; they mostly read to themselves or to me... I *should* read to them more often...). If I neglect my kids such that they end up on welfare or in minimum wage jobs as adults, they'll be taking up a share of the welfare money out there rather than paying taxes toward welfare. That's not to anyone's benefit.

[luuknam]

I was doing pretty well with only a few days to go when the game charged me for annual registration for my car for the second time. :glare:

 

Ha! Don't you hate bureaucratic errors that take forever to resolve but in the meantime cause you major headaches?

 

Never seen that problem before. The first time I played Spent I won... with just a few dollars left. What can I say... I've played and "won" the poverty thing irl as well.

 

ETA: I know that we still benefited from some privilege when we were poor, such as not having grown up poor.

[.Michelle.]

The second time, I finished with $263.  It's a good exercise, but the choices are discrete.  They don't seem to affect things correctly.  For ex., I opted to pay higher rent to live close enough to walk to work, but I was still paying auto registration and repair costs.  Or I went with an evening shift job, but when my kid got sick I had to miss a shift to stay home with him during the day?

 

Stuff like that is the same issue I had with that book about the journalist who tried to live on shift jobs.  I was shaking my head over her choices the whole time I was reading.

[Crimson Wife]

Sorry, not buying it. The "privilege" game that is being played out is no-win and insulting to those who started off with nearly nothing and turned that into success. One only needs to look to the achievements of Asian and Jewish immigrants. In a different cartoon, Paula could have been portrayed as a quick-witted smart young woman who achieved success through hard work and Richard surely could have been less of an ass - but that would not have fit the narrative.

 

Yep, the truth is often more grey. There's a reason why my DH is doing much better than his siblings financially. He busted his backside to move up from lower-middle-class as a kid to upper-middle-class now.

[Crimson Wife]

 Privilege has nothing to do with shame or guilt. Having privilege is not a bad thing — it's a great thing if you're the one who has it. What's bad is pretending that it doesn't exist and that a wealthy white guy who had a private prep school education followed by an Ivy degree had exactly the same chance of success in life as the poor, black, single mother who attended a inner city HS with a 40% graduation rate and couldn't afford college, and if her life sucks it's because she didn't try hard enough. 

 

Yes, the woman started off at a disadvantage. But she also made poor life choices that compounded her disadvantage. She chose to have a child or children outside of wedlock. She chose to work a low-wage service job rather than joining the military that would provide her a steady paycheck and benefits including money for college. People need to acknowledge that choices have consequences.

 

Some people are poor despite doing everything right. Our society absolutely needs to do a better job providing a social safety net for people who are the victims of misfortune. But we need to be careful how we structure assistance so that we don't wind up accidentally providing incentives for people to make bad decisions.

[momacacia]

This is why I find Ben Carson's mother so impressive. We need a book about *her*.

[bettyandbob]

Yes, the woman started off at a disadvantage. But she also made poor life choices that compounded her disadvantage. She chose to have a child or children outside of wedlock. She chose to work a low-wage service job rather than joining the military that would provide her a steady paycheck and benefits including money for college. People need to acknowledge that choices have consequences.

 

Some people are poor despite doing everything right. Our society absolutely needs to do a better job providing a social safety net for people who are the victims of misfortune. But we need to be careful how we structure assistance so that we don't wind up accidentally providing incentives for people to make bad decisions.

 

 

I have three dc who can't join the military. One is obviously disabled. The other two have conditions that preclude service--one of them would like to serve if he could. I guess it's my kids' fault for winning the genetic lottery that prevents service.

 

You keep saying everyone should join the military and suggesting that if they don't it's their own fault they can't afford college, etc. Consider that if everyone was required to join the military

1. the services would have a lot soldiers who were not truly committed. I'm sorry that's just not good for our country.

2. Our government would no longer be able to offer educational benefits to soldiers.

 

Stop blaming people for not choosing the military. There are lots of reasons people cannot serve. Military service should not be the only route to an affordable education for poor or middle class.

[Heidi]

Even if we were all born into the exact same circumstances in every way, we are born with varying talents, dispositions, ambitions, intelligence, or lack thereof. That's no one's fault. Death, illness, natural disasters, economic hardships, wars, and accidents happen unequally as well, and that's no one's fault either. LIFE is not fair. Being poor is not the fault of the rich, as some in this thread claim.

 

It seems that some people claim the point of the comic is to encourage humility by recognizing success is mostly because of luck and that the successful should have compassion on the poor. I agree. But the comic is a hateful and insulting way of communicating such a high ideal, and obviously not effective. It's like someone screaming, "BE HUMBLE, @$$hole!!" Not effective.

 

And lastly, and a little off topic, I agree that those who have more should give to those who have less, but forcing charity will always be the wrong answer. Always. The ideal is everyone having all things in common, with no poor or rich. That ideal must be based on freedom of choice and personal virtue such as humility, love, charity. And yes, that is a far fetched idea, but the pursuit of it, I believe, would lift society up. If forced redistribution of wealth were not an option, I believe we would rise to the occasion voluntarily. Forced charity to achieve the ideal is also far fetched, and the pursuit of it brings slavery, oppression, poverty, and death. Just look to the extreme example of communism. That's what I think anyway.

[Corraleno]

No, he's not meant to represent all rich people or middle class people. He's not represented as a benevolent job creator because the comic is not about rich people in general, or philanthropists, or people who create lots of jobs. It's specifically about people who take their privilege for granted while damning those who didn't have any of the same advantages. So to illustrate that point, they drew a guy who... takes his privilege for granted while damning those who didn't have the same advantages. And the reason they didn't switch Paula and Richard is because male privilege is part of that.

 

Privilege has nothing to do with shame or guilt. Having privilege is not a bad thing — it's a great thing if you're the one who has it. What's bad is pretending that it doesn't exist and that a wealthy white guy who had a private prep school education followed by an Ivy degree had exactly the same chance of success in life as the poor, black, single mother who attended a inner city HS with a 40% graduation rate and couldn't afford college, and if her life sucks it's because she didn't try hard enough. 

 

Yes, the woman started off at a disadvantage. But she also made poor life choices that compounded her disadvantage. She chose to have a child or children outside of wedlock. She chose to work a low-wage service job rather than joining the military that would provide her a steady paycheck and benefits including money for college. People need to acknowledge that choices have consequences.

 

Some people are poor despite doing everything right. Our society absolutely needs to do a better job providing a social safety net for people who are the victims of misfortune. But we need to be careful how we structure assistance so that we don't wind up accidentally providing incentives for people to make bad decisions.

 

Wow, thanks for providing a real life example of a "Richard."  :001_huh:

 

That hypothetical mother may be widowed or divorced, but apparently you just assume it as given that if she's black and single then she must have "chosen" to have children out of wedlock. And if it was an accidental pregnancy — I guess she's stupid for "choosing life," since an abortion would have been a much smarter economic choice, huh? Maybe she has health problems from growing up in poverty, maybe she has PSTD due to abuse, maybe she can't pass the physical to join the military. The idea that the military provides an easy way out of poverty, available to every poor person, is ridiculous.

 

 

 

[Corraleno]

Would you feel better if CW said 'government job' instead of military? Corrections, Post Office, Census, Police, Fire, DMV, Highway Dept..all sorts of govt jobs have lifted people out of poverty.

 

:confused1:

 

Of course some people manage to lift themselves out of poverty. I managed to lift myself out of poverty. I grew up dirt poor, wearing hand-me-down clothes and shoes with newspaper stuffed in the bottom when the soles wore through before the school year was out. I was often hungry, and we ate really poor quality food. A typical packed lunch for me in grade school was a jam sandwich on stale white bread from the discount outlet and a thermos of koolaid. I was physically, sexually, and emotionally abused. But I also got lucky in the genetic lottery, in terms of IQ, and was able to score a full scholarship to a good LAC as a National Merit Finalist. I was the first in my family to attend college, and the only one to actually finish.

 

But I would never cite the fact that I was able to lift myself out of poverty as "proof" that all poor people can do the same if they just work harder or get a better job. I know plenty of poor people who were not as lucky, people who have LDs or other issues that made school difficult for them, or people whose lives were derailed by medical issues or by abuse they couldn't handle — some of them are my relatives. 

 

When people who started life with a lot of advantages look down on people who started from a very different place, with the odds stacked so heavily against them, that demonstrates a level of arrogance and a lack of compassion that I find really troubling.

[Scarlett]

I think the actual point of this cartoon has gone right over the heads of some people.  :confused1:

 

It is not saying that no poor person can possibly ever get ahead, or that everyone who is successful must have had a boatload of unfair advantages. It is not saying that Paula = every poor person ever born and Richard = every middle class or wealthy person.

 

What it is saying is that sometimes successful people discount a lot of the advantages they had that contributed to their success, and instead attribute it entirely to their own "hard work" while looking down on less successful people who had none of those advantages.

 

That's what the concept of "privilege" refers to — the advantages that some people have which are invisible to them because they take those advantages (like stable living conditions, access to good health care and good schools, parental support, financial help with college, familial connections, etc.) for granted.

 

That is a fact, which is in no way refuted by pointing out that "some poor people succeed."  Of course some poor people manage to succeed in spite of everything, and some rich people manage to fail in spite of their advantages. That doesn't mean they didn't start out with vastly different odds, or change the fact that many people take their own advantages for granted.

I had to do more than just like this!  Well said.

[Murphy101]

I'm so sick and tired of hearing people rant about all the supposedly stupid irresponsible choices poor people make that supposedly cause them to be poor or stay poor.

 

News flash:

 

Poor people make the same supposedly stupid irresponsible choices as rich people.

 

The only difference is they don't have money to insulate them from all these so-called "consequences" for their mistakes that rich people don't ever even think about, much less endure and it sure doesn't seem to make rich people poor.

 

The claim of imposing consequences is BS.

 

It's nothing more than punitive measures against those poor people for having the bad manners to be both poor and having the audacity to think they are good enough to make the same life decisions as rich people.

 

Claims of "I was poor so..." Is no different than claims of "well I have a black friend..."

 

So what. Still wrong.

 

If anything it is more wrong.

 

Because then they should know better. (I was poor and am now slightly less poor, and I just don't understand that attitude.)

 

I'm all for building character. But I didn't see much of it built by poverty. Mostly I saw resentment, apathy, anger, depression, dysfunction, fear, ignorance, desperation, frustration and early death. I question whether supposedly building character is enough to balance that out.

 

ETA: I hated the comic. I thought the portrayal of Paula's family was a derogatory stereotype and Richard's final scene was just annoying, as targeted I suppose, but not particularly enlightening.

[Scarlett]

The point is not just to shame Richard and shut him up, but to shame him to the point where he feels the fruits of his labor should not really belong to him, thus justifying higher taxes to redistribute the money to people who feel entitled to a portion of Richard's labor.  It is intended to imply that rich people don't work as hard for their money as the poor.  I'm not buying it, either.

 

 

That is not what I got from it at all.

 

Wow.  

[Corraleno]

All people are saying is that there are paths available, and its hardly Richard's fault that these paths are ignored. 

 

Of course there are ways of climbing out of poverty. Is anyone arguing against that? No, of course not. What people are arguing against is the idea that anyone who is poor must have "ignored" one of these easy and obvious paths out of poverty. 

 

Making those paths available and highlighting their entry points is not a display of arrogance or lack of compassion....as you know from history, many used the public library to better themselves when school wasnt available. 

 

Oh of course, I forgot about the excellent library systems with branches in every poor neighborhood in America. I'm sure all those great libraries also offer free tutoring for the kids who haven't been taught to read because their lousy property-tax funded schools can't attract good teachers and/or because they have undiagnosed and untreated LDs. I bet those libraries also provide a safe haven from the drugs and gangs, and are filled with compassionate adult role models and mentors who can show these kids that there is a way out of the grinding cycle of poverty their families are caught in. There's no excuse for being poor in America!

 

And Richard is helping those who truly cant help themselves. 

 

Say what? Richard explicitly states that he opposes social services — "handouts" — to those whiny poor people who don't work as hard as he does.

 

And if genetics trumps everything, we might as well close the public schools to those who cant benefit...about 40% are disengaged here...and use that money to build housing and food factories and amusement parks for that population.

 

Having a high IQ is an advantage in life, is it not? Recognizing the fact that something I had no control over — my IQ — has a lot to do with why I was able to climb out of poverty when others were not so lucky does not = claiming that "genetics trumps everything." It just means that I recognize and am grateful for the advantages I have that others do not.

 

I guess people with average or lower IQs should have chosen better parents, huh?

[bettyandbob]

Would you feel better if CW said 'government job' instead of military? Corrections, Post Office, Census, Police, Fire, DMV, Highway Dept..all sorts of govt jobs have lifted people out of poverty.

I don't see working at the DMV or post office as the same as military service. I think the analogy is insulting to people who choose to serve.

 

By signing up and committing to military service you are agreeing to do most things a superior officer tells you to do and you agreeing that you will do whatever the task no matter how much danger you face. I don't believe anyone goes to work at the DMV thinking their life will be on the line during the regular course of business.

 

In recognition for the sacrifice and risks in choosing to serve, persons in the military can earn benefits towards education, they can also learn a trade they could use outside of the military. These are not benefits offered by typical government jobs.

 

I am counting first responder jobs as different from other government jobs. They are similar to military jobs in that there is some risk. The risk varies with the job location. Do, does the pay and benefits. Some first responder jobs do offer significant benefits partly due to risk and sacrifice. But again, do you want everyone to be a police officer simply for the pay?

 

I like my mailman. I have dealt with some decent DMV clerks (some bad ones too) I would not compare their jobs to those in military service.

 

That said, I still don't believe military service should be the only route to education and training for lower income.

[.Michelle.]

Where I live, poor people don't have cars. I can't believe I wasn't given the option to sell the darn car. Then again, you probably have sucky public transport options. Where I live, the poor ride the bus "black" and get to go anywhere they want in the city for free as long as they keep their eyes open and get off the bus as soon as the ticket inspectors get on.

 

Yes, but that's why I chose to pay a higher rent in order to live within walking distance to the job.  I thought that would allow me to not have a car.

 

Also, the pet question made me laugh.  If I'm struggling to feed myself, why the heck would I have a dog?  Yeah, I gave the dog to the humane society.  And the one about the friends going to a concert; that was silly.  I think about when I was just starting out and scraping to get by.  These things weren't a blip on my radar.

[luuknam]

Yes, but that's why I chose to pay a higher rent in order to live within walking distance to the job.  I thought that would allow me to not have a car.

 

Also, the pet question made me laugh.  If I'm struggling to feed myself, why the heck would I have a dog?  Yeah, I gave the dog to the humane society.  And the one about the friends going to a concert; that was silly.  I think about when I was just starting out and scraping to get by.  These things weren't a blip on my radar.

 

IIRC the game correctly, you're newly poor. So, presumably you got the pet before you were poor.

[creekland]

Also, the pet question made me laugh.  If I'm struggling to feed myself, why the heck would I have a dog?  

 

I'd love to say that this is normal behavior, but sadly, I know some IRL who can't afford food or rent or gas or all sorts of other things they beg for (literally - from family/friends/church), but think nothing of picking up a new kitten or dog and giving a vet $$$ for a checkup & more.  Often they have more than one critter already.  Trying to explain the reality of how the financial world works does nothing.   :cursing:

[Catwoman]

When I read this stuff, I am truly grateful I am not an American.

If you are only reading the negative things about the United States, I can't say that I blame you.

 

I am an American and I am truly grateful to be an American.

[Ausmumof3]

Wait, what???

 

I just came across this, so I am not sure if you are talking about a specific person, but blaming someone for being poor because they didn't want to join the military? It's good to remember that you can die in the military and that not everyone thinks the risk is worth it. Also, if you're a single parent, can you even join the military unless you have someone who is willing to take your kid(s) while deployed or otherwise unavailable for long periods of time? In my country, you can't. You have to supply proof that someone is willing to take your dependents in if you're a single parent, otherwise you will not even get to basic training.

Yeah my thoughts plus

 

You could have joined the military and come back permanently disabled or something.

 

And let's not presume that all single mums started out that way. Sometimes people marry perfectly nice seeming men and have children with them and things go really wrong.

 

Also the immigrant thing makes me wonder... Because is my country there are prerequisites to come here... So you are talking about a population that have skills needed in my country right now or a certain amount of money to start with. They have to pass tests to get here. So you are talking about an already filtered population.

[unsinkable]

If you are only reading the negative things about the United States, I can't say that I blame you.

 

I am an American and I am truly grateful to be an American.

Me, too. I wrote something similar to this in that controversial beliefs mega-thread.

[creekland]

When I read this stuff, I am truly grateful I am not an American.

 

 

I am an American and I am truly grateful to be an American.

 

Eh, having grown up literally on the boarder, I'd have been content being American or Canadian.  With the exception of some female oppressive countries and some war torn countries, I suspect I'd have been content calling pretty much any country home.

 

I like considering myself a citizen of the world rather than a specific country that man put borders around and made up laws for.  There are good and not-so-good people (and laws/policies/beliefs) everywhere IME.

[creekland]

Me, too. I wrote something similar to this in that controversial beliefs mega-thread.

 

I'm guessing this is another thread I missed.  When I get busy, the threads I actually look at are pretty limited in quantity.

[unsinkable]

I'm guessing this is another thread I missed. When I get busy, the threads I actually look at are pretty limited in quantity.

I'm had the title wrong...it was unpopular opinions , not controversial thoughts. :D

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/496321-confess-your-unpopular-opinion/

[creekland]

I'm had the title wrong...it was unpopular opinions , not controversial thoughts. :D

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/496321-confess-your-unpopular-opinion/

 

Ah, ok, at least it's an older thread.  My memory hasn't been the best lately and I've been more busy than normal so I know I've missed a couple of major threads lately... but I'll admit to wondering how I missed something like that!

[LaxMom]

Maybe we should all try this exercise:

Reach down and take hold of whatever you have on your feet (proverbial boots, with straps). Pull. See how far upward you move.

 

I'll wait right here.

[Harriet Vane]

Yes, but that's why I chose to pay a higher rent in order to live within walking distance to the job.  I thought that would allow me to not have a car.

 

Also, the pet question made me laugh.  If I'm struggling to feed myself, why the heck would I have a dog?  Yeah, I gave the dog to the humane society.  And the one about the friends going to a concert; that was silly.  I think about when I was just starting out and scraping to get by.  These things weren't a blip on my radar.

 

In some cases, it's a matter of poor financial planning.

 

However, in many cases, it's a matter of need and companionship.

 

One example is a young woman I knew who grew up in the foster care system. Towards the end of her teen years, the system moved her to a different state to be near "family." Ultimately that family was not there for her, and this woman aged into adult independence with very little emotional support structure. She was able to get a decent job waiting tables at a restaurant, and she liked the job. She also liked the state she was in and chose to stay there. But it was hard to come home to a bare, empty efficiency apartment, especially at odd hours when she had to work late. A cat was a healthy choice for her and made a big difference.

 

Another example I think of is a friend who is mentally ill and suffers with chronic depression. Her dog is essential for her survival. If that dog ever dies, I will personally buy my friend another dog. I have encouraged her to get another one now, so that as this dog is aging, there will be no gap in pet ownership. The dog's needs for a walk and fresh air get my friend out of the house. The dog makes her laugh with his antics. When my friend is suffering with a bad depressive episode, the dog is cuddly and affectionate.

 

Sometimes when life is rough, a furry companion can sweeten those difficulties.

[creekland]

Sometimes when life is rough, a furry companion can sweeten those difficulties.

 

I agree 100% with "a" pet, perhaps even two.  I would never want to be without one.

 

But when one already has "a" pet, then adds another, and another, and gets up to 4 (or 6, or 7 pending which person I'm talking about) while still being "unable" to pay their bills, there's a totally different issue going on.

 

This is partially WHY there is no simple answer to the poverty problem.  People differ.

 

[luuknam]

Also the immigrant thing makes me wonder... Because is my country there are prerequisites to come here... So you are talking about a population that have skills needed in my country right now or a certain amount of money to start with. They have to pass tests to get here. So you are talking about an already filtered population.

 

I migrated to the US on a fiancee visa a decade ago. No tests or w/e required, other than the TB test. Oh, and someone here had to vouch to support me financially for the first year(s) - I think my wife did plus had her dad cosign since she didn't make enough money. I'm sure that being an intelligent white person from a Western country made passing the interviews easier (the interviews were *very* brief), but they were to see if we were in a real relationship and not a scam, not to see if I was educated/rich enough. So, wrt the US, immigrants (these days) are a filtered population, but not as filtered as you're maybe thinking.

[Momling]

I'm not entirely convinced that privilege is even 100% about money. I could lose all my money today and I would still have privilege. I am educated and speak the majority language with the standard dialect, I am white, articulate, not old, healthy, free of mental illness and addiction, well-traveled, I grew up in a stable home with loving parents who had the same privilege as I have, have no family with a criminal history, have a world-view that does not involve a sense that the world is out to get me, have skills, ambition, confidence, etc... These are all hallmarks of privilege in my community and probably yours too.

 

Sometimes, especially around election time, you'll hear politicians try to pawn themselves off as being "average Joes" who came from a background of noble poverty and rose from the dirt. I could probably spin my life like that too if I wanted to make myself feel as if I am somehow deserving of my success more than other people. But in truth, just having periods without money doesn't change that I am essentially privileged... that the playing field is unequal in my favor because I was born to a stable family who knew how to access resources and opportunities and support. I could lose everything and move to a homeless shelter and I'd still have those benefits of privilege given to me at birth that would give me more choices and opportunities than people without privilege.

[Amira]

I'm not entirely convinced that privilege is even 100% about money. I could lose all my money today and I would still have privilege. I am educated and speak the majority language with the standard dialect, I am white, articulate, not old, healthy, free of mental illness and addiction, well-traveled, I grew up in a stable home with loving parents who had the same privilege as I have, have no family with a criminal history, have a world-view that does not involve a sense that the world is out to get me, have skills, ambition, confidence, etc... These are all hallmarks of privilege in my community and probably yours too.

 

Sometimes, especially around election time, you'll hear politicians try to pawn themselves off as being "average Joes" who came from a background of noble poverty and rose from the dirt. I could probably spin my life like that too if I wanted to make myself feel as if I am somehow deserving of my success more than other people. But in truth, just having periods without money doesn't change that I am essentially privileged... that the playing field is unequal in my favor because I was born to a stable family who knew how to access resources and opportunities and support. I could lose everything and move to a homeless shelter and I'd still have those benefits of privilege given to me at birth that would give me more choices and opportunities than people without privilege.

 

I completely agree with this.  We've spent six years of our married life living below the poverty line but it definitely wasn't just about the money.  I had family who would have taken us in if we couldn't find a safe, affordable place to live.  I had a well-equipped kitchen where I could make healthy, inexpensive food.  We were able to get by on one smaller income that gave me time to focus on keeping our family healthy and well-educated.  I always had internet access at home. I knew I could get a job if I needed to because I had a college degree my parents had helped pay for.  Dh made good choices.  We're Mormons so I know I always have someone who will help me.  We had good neighbors. We knew how to deal with landlords who were trying to violate our tenant rights.   

 

Most importantly, I knew that the hard times were likely to be short-lived so taking on a little debt didn't destroy our credit and I knew I wouldn't have to deal with our financial situation forever. Just being poor didn't mean we weren't extremely privileged.

[luuknam]

I'm not entirely convinced that privilege is even 100% about money. I could lose all my money today and I would still have privilege. I am educated and speak the majority language with the standard dialect, I am white, articulate, not old, healthy, free of mental illness and addiction, well-traveled, I grew up in a stable home with loving parents who had the same privilege as I have, have no family with a criminal history, have a world-view that does not involve a sense that the world is out to get me, have skills, ambition, confidence, etc... These are all hallmarks of privilege in my community and probably yours too.

 

I agree.

 

That said, it's amazing how quickly you can develop a mindset of feeling at fault for being poor, feeling undeserving, etc. It's not that hard to lose confidence. That said, I don't have/never had all of those privilege factors you list. I have about half of the ones you listed.

[Entropymama]

There is a game like that, about how to survive as a poor person.

 

http://playspent.org

 

Hmm.. I tried playing this but got frustrated fast - not because it was hard to stay afloat, but because the scenarios were so worst-case. For example - you get a job but it's a crappy one with zero health insurance and no sick time. Even the worst jobs I've ever had (fast food!) gave you some sick time. Then you had to buy health insurance through Obamacare and didn't qualify for state insurance even though you have a child and only make $1200 per month.

 

At $1200/month in my area you'd be eligible for food assistance and housing assistance. According to this 'game' you won't get either. 

 

If you missed one electric bill your electricity was cut off. It takes more than that. In every area I've ever lived there are programs to help people who can't pay their utilities, and in extreme weather areas there are laws that prevent them from shutting you off during hot or cold seasons. 

 

In the course of the 3 weeks I played I needed a root canal, my kid joined the track team, my dog got terribly ill and my grandpa died. I know this is possible, but come on. 

 

I get that it's trying to help people understand what it's like, but I've lived well below the poverty line and when I took advantage of the help that was available we did okay. I'm not saying there aren't situations like the one in the game, I'm saying they're not the norm.

[bettyandbob]

I get that it's trying to help people understand what it's like, but I've lived well below the poverty line and when I took advantage of the help that was available we did okay. I'm not saying there aren't situations like the one in the game, I'm saying they're not the norm.

 

I suspect there are a lot of people who do not know how to access the "help that is available."

 

Sometimes it's hard to get the information out to everyone who could take advantage. Sometimes people don't believe there is help, so they don't look.

 

I think knowing how to access resources is part of privilege.

[Amira]

I suspect there are a lot of people who do not know how to access the "help that is available."

 

Sometimes it's hard to get the information out to everyone who could take advantage. Sometimes people don't believe there is help, so they don't look.

 

I think knowing how to access resources is part of privilege.

 

 

I'll never forget the first time I learned this happened when I was young and naive and we moved to Trenton, New Jersey.  Student loans came up with a new acquaintance who was in his early 20s and he had no idea such a thing existed.  I had no idea there were people in the US who didn't know student loans were an option. I learned a lot living there.

 

This is one area where having internet access can make a huge difference now even though it wasn't an option back then.  A few minutes of googling can open up a lot of possibilities.

 

On another subject, I've been really interested to see how retention is affected by privilege in my husband's job.  His employer makes it a major priority to have diverse employees, and they're doing a reasonably good job with that in their hiring, but retention is still built on older privilege-based models that make it much more likely that employees without the right background will have a much harder time sticking with the job long-term.

[Murphy101]

In some cases, it's a matter of poor financial planning.

 

However, in many cases, it's a matter of need and companionship.

 

One example is a young woman I knew who grew up in the foster care system. Towards the end of her teen years, the system moved her to a different state to be near "family." Ultimately that family was not there for her, and this woman aged into adult independence with very little emotional support structure. She was able to get a decent job waiting tables at a restaurant, and she liked the job. She also liked the state she was in and chose to stay there. But it was hard to come home to a bare, empty efficiency apartment, especially at odd hours when she had to work late. A cat was a healthy choice for her and made a big difference.

 

Another example I think of is a friend who is mentally ill and suffers with chronic depression. Her dog is essential for her survival. If that dog ever dies, I will personally buy my friend another dog. I have encouraged her to get another one now, so that as this dog is aging, there will be no gap in pet ownership. The dog's needs for a walk and fresh air get my friend out of the house. The dog makes her laugh with his antics. When my friend is suffering with a bad depressive episode, the dog is cuddly and affectionate.

 

Sometimes when life is rough, a furry companion can sweeten those difficulties.

This really brings up something no one ever wants to discuss. Poor people have the same or worse emotional needs and struggles and traumas as everyone else. What they almost never have, and are usually shamed and chastising for seeking, is coping mechanisms.

 

Maybe it's a pet. That homeless person giving their only food in the last two days to their dog? What does that say about them? That they are stupid, foolish, irresponsible? No. It literally says they are so damaged that they need the companionship of that dog even more than they need food. Need. It's not an exaggeration to say they'd die without that animal. How awful is that? As much as I'm sure all of us love our pets, can you even comprehend being in so much emotional and mental pain that you can't imagine even bothering to eat ever again if your cat or dog wasn't at your feet? I mean come on. I have a houseful of pets and I admit I'm a sucker for all of them. But I can't fathom being in a place psychologically where I'd rather go without food than without my dog. How insane is it that in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, my not being able to feel that is a privledge? :(

 

And it could be anything. A pet. Knitting. Cigarettes. Cake. Soda pop.

 

But those poor people? They aren't permitted to have those things and if they attain them somehow anyways, they are judged extremely harshly for it.

 

I agree they should give up all those things for a roof and to pay their water bill.

 

But I also know I have a loving husband, 10 children who I love and who love me to do that FOR. There's a ridiculous and tragic number of people who don't have anyone to do that for and don't feel they are worth doing it for themselves or who have been knocked down so often they don't see the point of getting back up.

 

ETA: and let's be further honest. Those mechanisms are cheaper than the solutions, and until that changes I doubt our society will be bothered to change anything and will just keep on judging them.

[Murphy101]

I suspect there are a lot of people who do not know how to access the "help that is available."

 

Sometimes it's hard to get the information out to everyone who could take advantage. Sometimes people don't believe there is help, so they don't look.

 

I think knowing how to access resources is part of privilege.

And getting any type of help is often a full time job and another full time job to keep it.

[Entropymama]

I suspect there are a lot of people who do not know how to access the "help that is available."

 

Sometimes it's hard to get the information out to everyone who could take advantage. Sometimes people don't believe there is help, so they don't look.

 

I think knowing how to access resources is part of privilege.

 

I can see this being possible. I have only my own experience to draw from, of course, but I found (at least in my area) that help was readily available. There were advertisements on billboards, at bus stations and in libraries. Churches and doctor's offices could connect you to help. We originally got connected to services because I needed a doctor and we had no health insurance. I got out my phone book (delivered free to our apartment) and looked up free health services. I found a Catholic church that held a clinic and when I went they connected me to other services. 

 

Had I not needed to see a doctor I think I would still have known, because we lived in a low-rent area and most of our neighbors received some kind of assistance, as we found out. There were fliers for WIC in the apartment office where I had to go to pay the rent every month. Still, I'm sure there are some who really don't know. 

[bettyandbob]

I can see this being possible. I have only my own experience to draw from, of course, but I found (at least in my area) that help was readily available. There were advertisements on billboards, at bus stations and in libraries. Churches and doctor's offices could connect you to help. We originally got connected to services because I needed a doctor and we had no health insurance. I got out my phone book (delivered free to our apartment) and looked up free health services. I found a Catholic church that held a clinic and when I went they connected me to other services.

 

Had I not needed to see a doctor I think I would still have known, because we lived in a low-rent area and most of our neighbors received some kind of assistance, as we found out. There were fliers for WIC in the apartment office where I had to go to pay the rent every month. Still, I'm sure there are some who really don't know.

I don't see phone books delivered anymore. If you have Internet you really need to know what to look for to get your search right for these sevices. Some people might see a free clinic sponsored by a church and say "I'm not Catholic, so that's not for me" and never ask. When you are used to things not being for you, you follow stop asking.

 

You are correct. There are charities providing a variety of things, but there's also a significant percentage of persons who don't know about them, don't know how to find them, think the charity us for someone else.

[creekland]

I suspect there are a lot of people who do not know how to access the "help that is available."

 

And many who know will not use them mostly for pride reasons.  We have kids at school who are eligible for free or reduced lunch, but their parents won't fill out the paperwork for them to get it.  The kids only get to eat when there's enough money at home.  Often they go without.

 

I fully understand the pride issue, but I also like to think I'd be able to overcome it rather than let my kids go without meals.  One never knows until they are in that position I think.

 

I doubt it's any different with other services offered.

[luuknam]

I get that it's trying to help people understand what it's like, but I've lived well below the poverty line and when I took advantage of the help that was available we did okay. I'm not saying there aren't situations like the one in the game, I'm saying they're not the norm.

 

Part of the reason for that is there are so many people who say that welfare is nonsense - that poor people should just get a job and not use handouts. The other is that it often takes TIME to apply for various kinds of assistance - I remember playing this game a year or two ago, and at some point it did offer me the opportunity to sign up for food stamps, which I did... and was told they'd go into effect *next* month. I don't remember how Food Stamps work irl, but I do remember how our county's mental health services worked, and that was a looooooooong, drawn out process, only available to bipolar and schizophrenic people, and pretty much impossible to navigate if you're actually an unmedicated bipolar or schizophrenic. The only reason my wife eventually got back on bipolar meds was because MY parents sent us money for that, from NL. Her own parents wouldn't, even though her dad made 6 figures and the meds cost less than $10/month. It was insane.

 

:crying:

 

ETA: most of the cost was in seeing a doctor and getting a prescription, obviously.

ETA2: actually, maybe the meds were $20/month. Either way, NOT a lot of money. But the bureaucracy involved to get the county mental health system to help out is more insane than the people needing the meds.

ETA3: The quality of the county mental health system varies by county, at least in TX. Our county obviously was not the best at that stuff.

[Entropymama]

I don't see phone books delivered anymore. If you have Internet you really need to know what to look for to get your search right for these sevices. Some people might see a free clinic sponsored by a church and say "I'm not Catholic, so that's not for me" and never ask. When you are used to things not being for you, you follow stop asking.

 

You are correct. There are charities providing a variety of things, but there's also a significant percentage of persons who don't know about them, don't know how to find them, think the charity us for someone else.

 

Right. This was a long time ago, but it seems even easier to get information now. I just did a google search for 'food stamps' and the entire first page were links to how to apply in my area. I also searched 'I can't pay my rent' and found dozens of articles on what to do, what my rights are, and links to places you can get help. I learned something new - there are grants available to help people pay their bills. The site that listed that info included links to several other resources. Google also gave me several related searches to try - churches that pay rent, charities that pay rent, emergency help for eviction, etc. 

 

I get that people might assume services aren't for them, but at what point is that the fault of 'privilege'? I'm not Catholic but I was willing to see if they would help me. Trust me, I'm not bashing people who need help. Unlike many 'priveleged' people, I did not grow up in a stable home, I do have family members with criminal records, there is a history of mental illness, substance abuse, and homelessness in my immediate family. I don't think that because I escaped that I'm better than anyone else.

 

I disagree that a significant number of people don't know how to get help. Go to any low income area and ask around. For the most part, they know how to get services. They know exactly when the welfare checks and food stamps are coming. Homeless people know where to get food and clothing and showers, and where businesses will let you park for the night. It's certainly true that some don't, but not most.  

 

I agree that it can be difficult to get services when you are mentally ill or have a substance abuse problem. There is certainly a lot of fear there that you will lose your autonomy.

[Word Nerd]

They aren't even called food stamps anymore, so acronyms like SNAP might not mean anything to a person in need of assistance.

[Entropymama]

True, but a search for food stamps brings up the right information. I'm not trying to make excuses, honestly. I believe that privelege is a real thing that effects real people's lives. I'm just trying to insert relevant information into the conversation. 

[luuknam]

I agree that it can be difficult to get services when you are mentally ill or have a substance abuse problem. There is certainly a lot of fear there that you will lose your autonomy.

 

Can't speak about substance abuse, but it's not so much about fear of losing autonomy. It's just that filling out forms is too overwhelming if you're crippled with anxiety or depression or other stuff like that.

 

After we moved to WNY, it took me 9 months to find myself a GP, because it was too anxiety-provoking (I have phone anxiety for one). I tried calling some doctors sooner than that, but they weren't taking new patients, etc blah-de-blah. And I actually had the money and insurance then!