Anyone have a family member who disgusts them... (this is just a vent)

[AimeeM]

regarding the way they "discipline" their children, and in this particular situation allows their boyfriend of 6 months to use the same methods of discipline on HER children, but there isn't a da*n thing you can do about it legally? And you know that if you bring it up to them, you will no longer be allowed access to those children?

 

I feel helpless, nauseous, and just... I don't know. I just don't know any more. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That would be upsetting.

 

:grouphug:

[Ethel Mertz]

Yes. BTDT. Sorry you're going through this and even sorrier that those kids are having to live that way.

[JustEm]

I'm blessed to say of the 15 nieces and nephews I haven't had to deal with this. I can imagine it being a difficult situation. I'm sorry you and those kids are dealing with that. I'd have a hard time keeping quiet about it if I witnessed disgusting discipline.

[Catwoman]

I'm so sorry, Aimee. :grouphug:

 

What kind of discipline is it? Are you sure it's not reportable?

[Anne in CA]

My step dd's mom disgusted me. We got custody of step dd, but we still had to be around her and her (and her boyfriend's) parenting. It was hard, and she ultimately destroyed the three of her five children. My step dd and her oldest were largely influenced by other people and are doing okay, the three younger children whose fathers are dead/ unknown are just heartbreaking. None of them has ever had a job, or graduated high school, they are scary looking (home made piercings and tattoos and ugly hair styles), and drug using and have been in jail. She deliberately crippled them to keep them from leaving her, and they all live together in a big dysfunctional house. 

[AimeeM]

I'm sure, unfortunately. It involves a belt, a preschool aged child and another young elementary aged child, and hitting on the buttocks and back - for everything from tantrums to hitting (ironic, eh?), and whatever mom and boyfriend don't like, behavior-wise. No marks, nothing to report in the state they reside in; I've looked inside and out. ETA: the only thing that state's laws dictate is "no marks," and "no permanent damage."

 

Not keeping quiet would result in things being made worse - the children would then have none of us to turn to, to talk to, to hug them, to give them however brief respite. 

[happi duck]

(Hugs)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm blessed to say of the 15 nieces and nephews I haven't had to deal with this. I can imagine it being a difficult situation. I'm sorry you and those kids are dealing with that. I'd have a hard time keeping quiet about it if I witnessed disgusting discipline.

 

I haven't had to deal with it because nobody else in my family has kids!

[AimeeM]

I haven't had to deal with it because nobody else in my family has kids!

This made me a smile a bit. I'm not sure why, but thanks for that :)

Sometimes I can't believe that we (my siblings and I) were raised, relatively, by the same parents.

[vickjul]

:( We've got a similar family dynamic. Even more maddening, we're the ones who get labeled as the "bad" parents precisely because we DON'T hit our kids. I got an earful on DD2's birthday because my non-verbal 17-month-old DS screamed in protest when DD1 tried to sit in the chair he was already occupying, and DH told DD1 to back off and give him space instead of "putting DS in his place" and teaching him not to be a "selfish brat." At this point, I limit contact as much as possible for the sake of my own kids. 

[JustEm]

I'm sure, unfortunately. It involves a belt, a preschool aged child and another young elementary aged child, and hitting on the buttocks and back - for everything from tantrums to hitting (ironic, eh?), and whatever mom and boyfriend don't like, behavior-wise. No marks, nothing to report in the state they reside in; I've looked inside and out. ETA: the only thing that state's laws dictate is "no marks," and "no permanent damage."

 

Not keeping quiet would result in things being made worse - the children would then have none of us to turn to, to talk to, to hug them, to give them however brief respite.

This is so sad to me. My parent's used to spank us on occasion and one time my dad had enough and for what ever reason used a belt on one of my brothers. It was a turning point for my dad and he almost immediately apologized to my brother and never spanked any of us again. So I understand how a loving parent might slip and do it once but for it to be routine occurance is dispicable.

 

I would inspect them every single time I saw them. It is bound to make a mark some of the time. If I ever saw it I'd take pictures and report. In my state even spanking is illegal though.

[goldberry]

I'm so sorry.  Given the parameters you describe, I would say endure for the sake of the kids.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

It makes me sick to my stomach to even hear you say it :( I'm so sorry. I agree that while it would so difficult, I'd hang in there for the kids' sake. 

[AimeeM]

This is so sad to me. My parent's used to spank us on occasion and one time my dad had enough and for what ever reason used a belt on one of my brothers. It was a turning point for my dad and he almost immediately apologized to my brother and never spanked any of us again. So I understand how a loving parent might slip and do it once but for it to be routine occurance is dispicable.

 

I would inspect them every single time I saw them. It is bound to make a mark some of the time. If I ever saw it I'd take pictures and report. In my state even spanking is illegal though.

My mother inspects them thoroughly (they aren't local to me; I see them frequently, because they aren't very far, but they are a couple hours from me). 

My father used a paddle a couple times on one particular sister... but that was for trying to start a fire in the yard once, and another time shooting at house windows with a bb gun :P

Spanking is definitely NOT illegal in this very southern state. I wish there were parameters about spanking with objects, especially, but there isn't.

[unsinkable]

If I'm putting 2 and 2 together correctly, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire with the kids' mom.

 

If I am, the mom needs to pull her head out of her own a$$ and create a stable life for her kids without a man.

[zoobie]

I'm so sorry. :( There may be limits on what an unrelated boyfriend can do that a parent would be overlooked for doing.

[RioSamba]

I do have a similar situation, Aimee, and I know how much it hurts, how futile it feels. The child in our situation is now a teen, and I can see how the time spent with us has strengthened child and given child a different picture of what life and relationships can be like. Your involvement with your sister's children is a tremendous blessing to them.

[AimeeM]

If I'm putting 2 and 2 together correctly, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire with the kids' mom.

 

If I am, the mom needs to pull her head out of her own a$$ and create a stable life for her kids without a man.

I'm sorry. I'm exhausted and not putting 2 and 2 together. What does out of the frying pan and into the fire mean?

[AimeeM]

I'm so sorry. :( There may be limits on what an unrelated boyfriend can do that a parent would be overlooked for doing.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look that way. Unlike some other states I have looked at, there isn't any written law regarding WHO can spank children in this particular state - I would imagine it's like how many states can still spank school children with the parent's consent.

[AimeeM]

I do have a similar situation, Aimee, and I know how much it hurts, how futile it feels. The child in our situation is now a teen, and I can see how the time spent with us has strengthened child and given child a different picture of what life and relationships can be like. Your involvement with your sister's children is a tremendous blessing to them.

I wish I lived closer so that I could be more involved. Blessedly, my youngest sister and mother live locally to her, so they are able to take the children very frequently.

[unsinkable]

I'm sorry. I'm exhausted and not putting 2 and 2 together. What does out of the frying pan and into the fire mean?

Is this family where the father is in jail? So, IOW, if I am right in guessing it is the same family, the mother swapped one dangerous man for another.

 

If it is a different family, it's still bad.

[bettyandbob]

Is this family where the father is in jail?

I thought I remembered domestic violence being an issue, maybe that was someone else.

[AimeeM]

Is this family where the father is in jail? So, IOW, if I am right in guessing it is the same family, the mother swapped one dangerous man for another.

 

If it is a different family, it's still bad.

Yes, same family. Not that it means much considering what he did, but Dad is now medicated and receiving psychiatric help (I believe the DX was schizophrenia of some variety) and is right now trying to fight a paper that would give Sister sole custody and allow her to leave the state, and the country, with this other man without his permission. He's agreed to the divorce, and even to sign the house over to her, but he isn't budging on this. I'm not sure he can hold out, legally, because he's been sentenced to a fairly long time, but...

[AimeeM]

I thought I remembered domestic violence being an issue, maybe that was someone else.

Probably the same. There was DV involved, and Dad/husband is in jail. I posted somewhat of an update regarding that upthread one reply.

[bettyandbob]

Is mom in counseling?

 

It seems to me she needs to resolve whatever is causing her to be attracted to a certain type of man. 

She needs to have her complete focus on the dc, getting the skills she needs to provide for them physically, mentally and emotionally. 

[luuknam]

ETA: the only thing that state's laws dictate is "no marks," and "no permanent damage."

 

Does it specify no permanent *physical* damage? Because psychological damage could be permanent. Harder to argue that one though.

 

I'd consider calling CPS in that state, describing the scenario (without saying who it's about) and asking what if anything can be done. They may have some sort of suggestions. If they think that they do have the ability to interfere, you could tell them who it's about then, if you want.

[Catwoman]

Unfortunately, it doesn't look that way. Unlike some other states I have looked at, there isn't any written law regarding WHO can spank children in this particular state - I would imagine it's like how many states can still spank school children with the parent's consent.

Can you call CPS and ask some questions? If you tell them what is going on, they should be able to tell you if it's a situation in which they can get involved. If nothing else, at least they can explain exactly what does constitute a reportable offense so you and your family can keep your eyes open for something that meets the criteria.

[Catwoman]

Does it specify no permanent *physical* damage? Because psychological damage could be permanent. Harder to argue that one though.

 

I'd consider calling CPS in that state, describing the scenario (without saying who it's about) and asking what if anything can be done. They may have some sort of suggestions. If they think that they do have the ability to interfere, you could tell them who it's about then, if you want.

Looks like you were posting while I was typing -- I should have waited a minute and then I could have just liked your post instead of posting my own. :)

[unsinkable]

So yeah...out of the frying pan, into the fire means that you go from one very bad situation to an even worse situation. Which sounds like what this woman has done, and dragged her kids along with her.

 

I hope to God she doesn't leave her home, family , surroundings etc...and moves somewhere far away with a man who HITS HER KIDS WITH A BELT.

 

All the red flags in the world are popping up.

 

I'm really sorry.

[texasmama]

Yes.  BTDT.  I'm really sorry.  (((hugs)))

[AimeeM]

Is mom in counseling?

 

It seems to me she needs to resolve whatever is causing her to be attracted to a certain type of man. 

She needs to have her complete focus on the dc, getting the skills she needs to provide for them physically, mentally and emotionally. 

No, she isn't in counseling. We all offered continued financial and childcare assistance so that she could cut back on her work hours and go to counseling (because initially she said that she couldn't go because she was having to work so much more), but she didn't; then she met this guy and doesn't need to work at all (i.e. she doesn't work much, if at all, now), so now there isn't an excuse.

She also refused counseling for the children. 

We know she needs counseling. We know that the children DESPERATELY need counseling, and the youngest desperately needs speech therapy. We can't do anything more about those things than to offer her the same support system we always have. These children were there when their father pulled the stunt he did with their mother (my sister) - they were screaming and terrified and had to be dropped out of a window, barefoot, to escape. They all need therapy. 

[Valley Girl]

What a heartbreaking situation! Is she actually opposed to counseling for the children, or does she just not want to be bothered with it? If it's the latter, I'm wondering if your mom/younger sister could take the children for counseling/speech therapy since they care for them frequently? I'm NOT suggesting they do it behind the mother's back. But if it's a case where their mom doesn't object, maybe that's one way to get some help for those poor traumatized kids. Bless your family for being there for them.

[Plink]

((Hugs)) It stinks that people make awful decisions that damage their kids.

[Junie]

:grouphug:  I am sorry.

[idnib]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I am so sorry.  :crying:

 

I know it's difficult to keep the big picture in mind, but if you stay in their lives, some day they will be too old for this and will be more independent and you'll be able to be there for them.

[Bluegoat]

Does it specify no permanent *physical* damage? Because psychological damage could be permanent. Harder to argue that one though.

 

I'd consider calling CPS in that state, describing the scenario (without saying who it's about) and asking what if anything can be done. They may have some sort of suggestions. If they think that they do have the ability to interfere, you could tell them who it's about then, if you want.

 

I guess the thing I would wonder is, if the behavior was deemed inappropriate by CPS, what would be the repercussions for the kids?

[AimeeM]

What a heartbreaking situation! Is she actually opposed to counseling for the children, or does she just not want to be bothered with it? If it's the latter, I'm wondering if your mom/younger sister could take the children for counseling/speech therapy since they care for them frequently? I'm NOT suggesting they do it behind the mother's back. But if it's a case where their mom doesn't object, maybe that's one way to get some help for those poor traumatized kids. Bless your family for being there for them.

My mother can't drive now (disabled), so she can't take them anywhere. Regardless, my sister won't allow it.

[AimeeM]

I guess the thing I would wonder is, if the behavior was deemed inappropriate by CPS, what would be the repercussions for the kids?

Even if it's deemed inappropriate, but not necessarily abusive, generally they would first try to talk my sister into counseling (which she's already refused). At that point she would know one of her children "told" and one of the children has already conveyed that she would get into "big trouble" if she told about the spankings.

The repercussions on a bigger level, if for some reason they WERE removed from the home, would be that they would likely be placed in kinship care. Although my mother is disabled, she is mobile, there is other family near by, and my mother was a therapeutic foster parent for a very long time. The long term plan would likely be for me to take the children until my sister could... figure things out, I suppose. I'm out of state, though, so that would take time and red tape. 

Right now she is planning to move out of state by the end of summer, with this man, to an area where she has no family. 

I could call and ask CPS questions, maybe? I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that, though... as in, I'm not sure what the legalities are surrounding that.

[JustEm]

Even if it's deemed inappropriate, but not necessarily abusive, generally they would first try to talk my sister into counseling (which she's already refused). At that point she would know one of her children "told" and one of the children has already conveyed that she would get into "big trouble" if she told about the spankings.

The repercussions on a bigger level, if for some reason they WERE removed from the home, would be that they would likely be placed in kinship care. Although my mother is disabled, she is mobile, there is other family near by, and my mother was a therapeutic foster parent for a very long time. The long term plan would likely be for me to take the children until my sister could... figure things out, I suppose. I'm out of state, though, so that would take time and red tape. 

Right now she is planning to move out of state by the end of summer, with this man, to an area where she has no family. 

I could call and ask CPS questions, maybe? I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that, though... as in, I'm not sure what the legalities are surrounding that.

 

 

 If she is planning on moving out of state with them away from all family someone needs to put the wheels in motion to possibly stop it.  The fact that the mom has warned the kids about telling anyone about the beatings is alarming. And threatening them if they tell anyone is even worse.  She is coaching them to keep quiet about bigger offenses when they eventually come, which statistically speaking they are coming.  I would urge you to call cps in that state and lay out the facts to them and allow them to decide if it is worth looking into.  If she ends up away from all family those kids will have no one to turn to when things get worse.

[Mimm]

I'm so sorry. What a sad situation. :( I hope you find something you can do to help them.

[AimeeM]

 If she is planning on moving out of state with them away from all family someone needs to put the wheels in motion to possibly stop it.  The fact that the mom has warned the kids about telling anyone about the beatings is alarming. And threatening them if they tell anyone is even worse.  She is coaching them to keep quiet about bigger offenses when they eventually come, which statistically speaking they are coming.  I would urge you to call cps in that state and lay out the facts to them and allow them to decide if it is worth looking into.  If she ends up away from all family those kids will have no one to turn to when things get worse.

I plan to call and ask questions; if they believe it's even worthy of looking into further, I will make a formal report.

[AimeeM]

Unfortunately it appears that calling may only make things worse, because it doesn't appear that their state considers anything abuse if there aren't serious marks and/or physical damage. I was able to pull this up on the city/state's child protective services' website; it is their definition of abuse or neglect:

PHYSICAL ABUSE IS INJURY TO A CHILD UNDER AGE 18 BY AN ADULT WHICH RESULTS IN BRUISES, WELTS, FRACTURES, BURNS, CUTS OR INTERNAL INJURIES. • NEGLECT IS THE FAILURE OF THE PARENT OR CARETAKER TO SEE THAT A CHILD IS ADEQUATELY SUPERVISED, FED, CLOTHED OR HOUSED. • SEXUAL ABUSE OCCURS WHEN A PARENT OR OTHER ADULT USES A CHILD UNDER AGE 18 FOR SEXUAL GRATIFICATION.

[luuknam]

Unfortunately it appears that calling may only make things worse, because it doesn't appear that their state considers anything abuse if there aren't serious marks and/or physical damage. I was able to pull this up on the city/state's child protective services' website; it is their definition of abuse or neglect:

PHYSICAL ABUSE IS INJURY TO A CHILD UNDER AGE 18 BY AN ADULT WHICH RESULTS IN BRUISES, WELTS, FRACTURES, BURNS, CUTS OR INTERNAL INJURIES. • NEGLECT IS THE FAILURE OF THE PARENT OR CARETAKER TO SEE THAT A CHILD IS ADEQUATELY SUPERVISED, FED, CLOTHED OR HOUSED. • SEXUAL ABUSE OCCURS WHEN A PARENT OR OTHER ADULT USES A CHILD UNDER AGE 18 FOR SEXUAL GRATIFICATION.

 

Again, you can try to call and talk about the situation without telling them who you're talking about. They may have suggestions. I don't know. I'm having a hard time believing that hitting kids with a belt will not leave bruises or w/e. I mean, maybe not every time, but surely some times it would. Not sure how you'd catch that if they decide when the kids go see grandma or whomever else.

 

I guess on the positive side, whatever state they'll be moving to might be more liberal in their definition of abuse?

[poppy]

Preschool? Ooh my goodness. Those poor children.  In your shoes I'd actively try to steer the mom from the relationship, be there for the kids, and .......... be really sad and feel hopeless. I'm so sorry for those kids.

[Anne in CA]

 I don't see why you could not call CPS and ask questions. I did it in Oregon before we got custody of step dd. Her mother would do things that made neighbors call the police, or CPS and then when the police or CPS did nothing they would call us and complain that WE should fix it. The neighbors were horrified (and given her neighbors that was impressive) at her parenting, but when I would call CPS and ask why they did not act on the neighbor's complaints they were happy to explain to me why they do not take some complaints seriously. In the case of my step dd's mom, CPS would not take the complaints of her criminal neighbors seriously because they were assumed to be revenge for drug deals or other scams gone wrong. If you have a criminal background you do not get to make CPS complaints, it turns out.

 

I think you could call CPS and just ask general questions without stirring up trouble. They have too much work to do already and do not want to chase down stuff that can't be proved.

[AimeeM]

Preschool? Ooh my goodness. Those poor children.  In your shoes I'd actively try to steer the mom from the relationship, be there for the kids, and .......... be really sad and feel hopeless. I'm so sorry for those kids.

Steering her from the relationship is proving to be as successful as trying to make a dent in a brick wall with my head (not very). She believes the moon rises and sets on this man... but, frankly, I'm not sure he can be blamed entirely. She was utilizing similar methods of "discipline" before him.

[AimeeM]

 I don't see why you could not call CPS and ask questions. I did it in Oregon before we got custody of step dd. Her mother would do things that made neighbors call the police, or CPS and then when the police or CPS did nothing they would call us and complain that WE should fix it. The neighbors were horrified (and given her neighbors that was impressive) at her parenting, but when I would call CPS and ask why they did not act on the neighbor's complaints they were happy to explain to me why they do not take some complaints seriously. In the case of my step dd's mom, CPS would not take the complaints of her criminal neighbors seriously because they were assumed to be revenge for drug deals or other scams gone wrong. If you have a criminal background you do not get to make CPS complaints, it turns out.

 

I think you could call CPS and just ask general questions without stirring up trouble. They have too much work to do already and do not want to chase down stuff that can't be proved.

Yes, I plan to. 

I do know that the discipline implemented isn't considered abuse in their state. I wonder, however, why I saw nothing pertaining to emotional abuse on the CPS website. Our concerns go far beyond the belt (of course that is a serious concern, but we have other concerns).