Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I don't believe in "transgender". I feel for people who are suffering from gender confusion the same way I feel for people under any other sort of delusion. If Jenner wants to dress androgynously, wear makeup, have long hair, etc. that's his business. I'm all for getting rid of gender stereotypes. But he's not "a woman trapped in a man's body" any more than the people who are convinced that they're space aliens or Jesus Christ or whatever. I think you might change your mind if a longtime friend or a family member was transgendered. It is a tough concept to identify with, and it can be hard to accept, but I truly believe that if you saw it in person and it was someone with whom you had a close relationship, you would feel differently. I do understand that many people have a difficult time believing it's a "real thing," though, and I don't think most of them are trying to be hateful, mean, or insulting. I know you aren't that kind of person at all, so please don't think I'm calling you names or insinuating that you are a bad person because you don't believe that people can be transgendered. I just think you would change your mind about it if you had more personal experience with transgendered people. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Jenner claimed that he has still been attracted to women during this process. Can someone explain this to me? Isn't someone transgendering usually attracted to the opposite sex of his "genuine" (sorry, don't know all the terms) sexuality? So in this case, wouldn't he be attracted to men? I'm of an older generation on these boards (I grew up watching Bruce Jenner in the olympics!) and am trying to understand this openly and without judgement. Also, someone on a previous transgender thread brought up an interesting idea. She was wondering, if society didn't put people into such gender specific boxes, would they feel a need to physically transgender? So for example, if men were allowed to lean more toward feeling "feminine" on the spectrum and this was totally acceptable and not considered weird, would men still feel that they needed to physically transgender? Sorry, it's difficult to explain this and I hope I'm not offending anyone. No. Lots of trans people have gay or lesbian orientations even after they transition, including my brother who is married to a man. As for your second question, it's easy to think that. I used to think that. I am a fairly "butch" woman and was a huge tomboy. But my sibling transitioning from female to male showed me how incorrect my assumptions were. I am a straight woman for all my non-gender conforming traits. My brother was not a straight woman however, he is a gay man. So no, I don't think that people would cease to be trans if we viewed gender as a less rigid binary. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 The difference being that people who are convinced they're space aliens etc usually can get rid of the delusions by taking antipsychotics. Those don't work for transgender people. Transgender people are as varied as biological men/women in how athletic they are, what gender(s) they're attracted to, etc etc etc. As far as transgender athletes are concerned, Renée Richards was a professional tennis player (male) who transitioned to female decades ago. I'd never heard of Bruce until I saw Bruce on the covers of gossip magazines at the checkout line a month or two ago with the "transgender" headline. But, I was born in 1984 in The Netherlands... I'm not all that familiar with people who won Olympic events in general, n/m decades ago. What I don't get is that Bruce didn't give a female name to use? I didn't see the interview, but wouldn't it make sense to give a female name in your coming out interview? It's not like Brucilla/Brucette/Brucy/etc are workable... it's kind of awkward talking about an MTF as "he" and "Bruce". I don't see why she can't choose to continue being called Bruce. Maybe she has different ideas for later, but certainly there's no requirement to change one's name. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 You should look up Ryland's story - google it, youtube it, watch it with an OPEN MIND. If you still feel like someone cannot be 'trapped in another gender's body', then I'm not sure you ARE keeping an open mind. Do you make most of your posts on this site to stir the pot? I'm seeing a pattern. Not agreeing with you is not pot stirring or necessarily a sign of not having an open mind. I agree with her, so mostly I think this he is just a very sad person with mental health issues. I never thought he was a hero just bc he was exceptional at athletics either. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I don't see why she can't choose to continue being called Bruce. Maybe she has different ideas for later, but certainly there's no requirement to change one's name. I'm not saying it's a requirement... I'm just saying it feels awkward to call a woman "he" and "Bruce", and I'm not really getting why he'd want people to call him "he" and "Bruce" if he's out as female now. But then and again, there are a lot of things people do that I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 For those who think this is a mental health issue, how do you explain that (to my knowledge) no one has ever been "cured" of being transgender by therapy or medication? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I am a person who has only recently begun to understand transgender issues at all, and who has religious baggage regarding some of these issues. I remember Montel Williams' show on this topic, decades ago, and how I realized at the time that some things are above our pay grade and we are not experts on other people's inner lives -- and kindness and acceptance are essential because the loneliness and isolation for people in the wrong body are unlike any other on earth. I have never been a person whom anyone has to fear, whether through scornful, unkind treatment or belonging to religious or political groups that push oppressive or bigoted agendas. I'm just out here in neutral land: "I'm sorry I don't understand what you're going through but you can count on human decency from me; I'm not your enemy." But I am open and learning. What's my point? I remember when Bruce Jenner was a great American hero. How we all loved him! And admired him -- his talent was amazing but his reputation for kindness and gentleness was equally well known. I think his family is weird but I don't follow reality TV and I don't see the Kardashian Show as his identity, or the main thing that comes to mind when I think of him. So for me, for him to say, "This is who I am, but you need to also know that this is who I was the whole time," is something I can believe and respect. He's got the people who know him best, standing by him and affirming that he is (and has always been) the Bruce Jenner America knew - one of the best humans they've ever known who is generous and kind and courageous -- I can still only see the same great American hero. Now he's a new kind of hero and I have no doubt that what Ellen Degeneres said is true: He saved lives last night. I think this will change the world because Bruce Jenner calmly, lovingly, patiently explaining his journey is the FIRST and BEST opportunity for people my age and older to begin to understand. We need to hear that all of this is neither a fad nor a sign of moral decline nor just a Hollywood thing, or just being confused, or the result of steroids (?!) -- all the ignorant things that might be said by people who just don't know but need to explain things to fit their paradigm, and that have been said in the past -- no, Bruce's story is just true. We don't have to understand others' reality for it to be true. And if the adults can begin to understand, even a little more, the young people who need us will finally have us. We saved our Bruce Jenner Wheaties box for a long time (cut out and framed on the garage wall). When this great American hero finally feels that the outside matches the inside, I hope Wheaties will offer an encore. 35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 For those who think this is a mental health issue, how do you explain that (to my knowledge) no one has ever been "cured" of being transgender by therapy or medication? There's lots of mental, physical, and emotional conditions that we don't have cures for. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 What a brave person and I hope his coming out publicly gives more young people confidence to be themselves. Edited pronouns. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 The only thing I find shocking in this while situation is that people never heard of Bruce Jenner prior to his connection with the Kardashians and/or his openness about his transgender-edness. (LOL) Makes me feel old. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm not saying it's a requirement... I'm just saying it feels awkward to call a woman "he" and "Bruce", and I'm not really getting why he'd want people to call him "he" and "Bruce" if he's out as female now. But then and again, there are a lot of things people do that I don't understand. I don't see why she can't choose to continue being called Bruce. Maybe she has different ideas for later, but certainly there's no requirement to change one's name. What a brave women and I hope her coming out publicly gives more young people confidence to be themselves. I believe I read that Bruce is still using male pronouns for himself. That's his right. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Makes me feel old. Come sit next to me in the Oldtimers section. ;) We have cupcakes. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I believe I read that Bruce is still using male pronouns for himself. That's his right. :iagree: I'm not calling him "she" because he has stated that he prefers to be referred to with male pronouns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 If the fact that there are transgender people doesn't line up with your religious views about human sexuality, it is a mental health issue. That is fascinating to me. My moral theology professor, Fr. Anthony, taught that, if you looked into the childhood of a gay person, there were always "daddy issues". He was wrong, obviously, but it is so much easier to accept people who are different if we view them as damaged somehow. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I believe I read that Bruce is still using male pronouns for himself. That's his right. Of course it is. I just don't understand it, and it probably makes it harder for other transgender people to get people to use the correct pronouns etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Come sit next to me in the Oldtimers section. ;) We have cupcakes. I prefer molten lava cake, warmed, with ice cream but cupcakes will do. Let me take some Geritol and a nap first. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I believe I read that Bruce is still using male pronouns for himself. That's his right. I did not see that he was. I will edit, thanks for letting me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 If the fact that there are transgender people doesn't line up with your religious views about human sexuality, it is a mental health issue. That is fascinating to me. Transgender is not a sexuality issue. It's a gender identity issue. The two are largely unrelated. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelli Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I wasn't even born when Jenner won his Olympic gold. :blushing: It would be two more years until that historical event. As for his interview. I'm not sure what to think about the issue of transgender. I definitely need to do more research and study. All of that aside though, I wish Bruce and his family all of the best. None of it can be easy for anyone involved especially when the bulk of your life is lived in the paparazzi's cross hairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I think you might change your mind if a longtime friend or a family member was transgendered. It is a tough concept to identify with, and it can be hard to accept, but I truly believe that if you saw it in person and it was someone with whom you had a close relationship, you would feel differently. I do understand that many people have a difficult time believing it's a "real thing," though, and I don't think most of them are trying to be hateful, mean, or insulting. I know you aren't that kind of person at all, so please don't think I'm calling you names or insinuating that you are a bad person because you don't believe that people can be transgendered. I just think you would change your mind about it if you had more personal experience with transgendered people. Why is it not insulting, mean or hateful to tell someone this they are mentally deluding themselves about who they are? I mean if I tell a SAHM that she deluded about the ramifications of not earning her own income and maintaining her professional skills or tell a Jewish person they are deluded about their religion or tell a homeschooler they are deluded that they can educate their children without schools, that would be mean and insulting. Why are people who "don't believe" in being transgendered supposed to get a pass? It is inherently rude to tell someone that I "don't believe" they get to determine what they are and are not or what is right for them and their family. ETA- that doesn't mean people can't believe as they want. It does mean that there is are times and places and ways it is rude to voice those opinions. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I prefer molten lava cake, warmed, with ice cream but cupcakes will do. Let me take some Geritol and a nap first. Pass me the Geritol. It might liven me up a little. I'll see what I can do about the molten lava cake with ice cream. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 If the fact that there are transgender people doesn't line up with your religious views about human sexuality, it is a mental health issue. That is fascinating to me. My moral theology professor, Fr. Anthony, taught that, if you looked into the childhood of a gay person, there were always "daddy issues". He was wrong, obviously, but it is so much easier to accept people who are different if we view them as damaged somehow. I didn't mention religion or homosexuality. I said what *I* think of this particular issue. Again, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean any of the things you suggest it does. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Why is it not insulting, mean or hateful to tell someone this they are mentally deluding themselves about who they are? I mean if I tell a SAHM that she deluded about the ramifications of not earning her own income and maintaining her professional skills or tell a Jewish person they are deluded about their religion or tell a homeschooler they are deluded that they can educate their children without schools, that would be mean and insulting. Why are people who "don't believe" in being transgendered supposed to get a pass? It is inherently rude to tell someone that I "don't believe" they get to determine what they are and are not or what is right their them and their family. What if a transgender or homosexual person believes that their transgenderness or homosexuality are a mental illness/medical problem and wants to be cured? What if they want to be cisgender or straight? Do they get to have that right? Would they be insulting others? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I don't think that it is political correctness to distinguish body dysmorphic disorder from gender dysphoria. The mainstream medical community has determined that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. I have no scientific basis for disagreement, and, thus, I am curious -- on what evidentiary basis are others in this thread making the determination that the medical community is incorrect? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 What if a transgender or homosexual person believes that their transgenderness or homosexuality are a mental illness/medical problem and wants to be cured? What if they want to be cisgender or straight? Do they get to have that right? Would they be insulting others? The question is a logical mess and does not make sense in terms of what is known about gender and what is known about orientation. It is not a question that represents reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 What if a transgender or homosexual person believes that their transgenderness or homosexuality are a mental illness/medical problem and wants to be cured? What if they want to be cisgender or straight? Do they get to have that right? Would they be insulting others? They can speak for themselves. And yes, it would be rude for, say a straight identified trans person to tell my brother that it was stupid to transition since that "made him gay" and that it wasn't healthy to be gay. <<<<------real life example there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Why is it not insulting, mean or hateful to tell someone this they are mentally deluding themselves about who they are? I mean if I tell a SAHM that she deluded about the ramifications of not earning her own income and maintaining her professional skills or tell a Jewish person they are deluded about their religion or tell a homeschooler they are deluded that they can educate their children without schools, that would be mean and insulting. Why are people who "don't believe" in being transgendered supposed to get a pass? It is inherently rude to tell someone that I "don't believe" they get to determine what they are and are not or what is right their them and their family. I don't think she would say it to anyone's face, but if she did, I agree it would be totally out of line. What I meant was that I suspect she doesn't know any transgendered people, so she can't wrap her mind around it. I don't think she is trying to be mean. I think she truly does not understand that being transgendered is a reality and is not a mental illness. I think if she spent some time with your brother or my best friend, she would realize that she was wrong about the whole thing. My friend's own mom thought there was "no such thing" as being transgendered at first, and it was her own adult child who was telling her about it and she was generally a pretty open-minded woman, so I try to keep that in mind when someone says they don't think it's real. I don't think it solves anything by telling someone they are hateful, but it could be helpful to share our own experiences with that person to try to help them understand that they are mistaken. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RioSamba Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 The only thing I find shocking in this while situation is that people never heard of Bruce Jenner prior to his connection with the Kardashians and/or his openness about his transgender-edness. (LOL)It makes me feel so old! How can it be that there are grown people with children who don't remember the incredible shared elation when Bruce Jenner won the Olympic Decathalon? No internet, no DVR. We all watched at the same time, it was a shared experience in a way that doesn't happen today. Get off my lawn! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btervet Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm not saying it's a requirement... I'm just saying it feels awkward to call a woman "he" and "Bruce", and I'm not really getting why he'd want people to call him "he" and "Bruce" if he's out as female now. But then and again, there are a lot of things people do that I don't understand. He is in the early stage of transition. The transition period has many awkward moments, names/pronouns being one. If you have been named and called Bruce your whole life, it's hard to change that, even if you feel your gender is female. If you've always been a he, it's not easy to immediately switch to she just because you are starting your transition. I find it is generally easiest and least likely to offend if you follow the trans persons use of names/pronouns. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 What if a transgender or homosexual person believes that their transgenderness or homosexuality are a mental illness/medical problem and wants to be cured? What if they want to be cisgender or straight? Do they get to have that right? Would they be insulting others? I think it would be entirely normal for a transgendered person to feel conflicted and to wish he or she was "like other people," simply because it's a lot easier to have your mind and body be the same sex. It's hard to be different, particularly for kids and teens, but for adults as well. If anyone wants to seek therapy for their emotional conflicts, I would completely support that person for doing so. I think everyone deserves to be content with who they are. That said, I don't believe that any amount of therapy will change a transgendered person's personal identity, no matter how much they are hoping it will. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 ...is a reality and is not a mental illness. Mental illnesses are realities too. Just like, say, cancer or a broken arm are real. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Come sit next to me in the Oldtimers section. ;) We have cupcakes. Can I come too, but minus the cupcakes -- I'm trying to lose weight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Deleted post. Never mind. Decided not to debate about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 It makes me feel so old! How can it be that there are grown people with children who don't remember the incredible shared elation when Bruce Jenner won the Olympic Decathalon? No internet, no DVR. We all watched at the same time, it was a shared experience in a way that doesn't happen today. Get off my lawn! Yup. Got some Geritol for me? Also, I'm good with either a molten lava cake or cupcakes. Or both. Whatever's easier for you... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Can I come too, but minus the cupcakes -- I'm trying to lose weight. Sure. I call dibs on your cupcakes, and Joanne gets your cake. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Your comment about none of the gay people you know being remotely athletic is just as much in need of reexamining. Billie Jean King Sheryl Swoops (WNBA superstar) Glenn Burke (played center flipping field for the Dodgers and As) Jason Collins (NBA player) I can go on but I won't. My brother was a top notch softball player whose transition came at the expense of his college softball dreams. He and his husband are super sports fans and have played together in a local league for gay men. I mean really? There have been MLB, NBA and NFL players who came out after they retired and there are a lot of openly lesbian WNBA players and some openly gay male and female American soccer players. That you know no athletic gay or trans people means squat. They do, very much, exist. You have taken my post completely out of context. I was not making a claim about the athleticism of gay and transgender people in general. As it happens my friends (gay, straight, trans, and who the hell cares) are mostly nerdy and while we work out none of us is particularly athletic at all. My point was to bolster a PP's point that the claim that Jenner 'might be transgender due to earlier steroid abuse' is unfounded and nonsensical. Because even without looking at the science, many of us know lots of people who are not CIS gendered who have had nothing to do with steroids or athletics, period. Please at least take the posts in context. If allies start arguing among themselves over every statement, including, "The last gay person I worked with was Catholic" -> "Well not all gay people are Catholic" we are really going to lose this fight. I am sorry for not providing enough context for my statement, though. I do stand by it and its relevance, because while irrelevant to generalize to the whole group from a sub-population, a large counterexample is a good way to object to an unfounded generalization. I don't think that I need to explain why but I will if that is not clear. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RioSamba Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Yup. Got some Geritol for me? Also, I'm good with either a molten lava cake or cupcakes. Or both. Whatever's easier for you...How about half a popsicle that we actually break in half because it has two sticks? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 That said, I don't believe that any amount of therapy will change a transgendered person's personal identity, no matter how much they are hoping it will. I'm not saying it will. Therapy alone doesn't cure bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia either. That doesn't mean they're not classified as mental illnesses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Do you know any transgendered people? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm not saying it will. Therapy alone doesn't cure bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia either. That doesn't mean they're not classified as mental illnesses. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. What is your point about transgendered people? (Not being snarky!!! I have a feeling you're playing devil's advocate here. :)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 It is not a question that represents reality. To be honest, I think that statement is offensive. Maybe you didn't understand what I was trying to say. W/e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm not saying it's a requirement... I'm just saying it feels awkward to call a woman "he" and "Bruce", and I'm not really getting why he'd want people to call him "he" and "Bruce" if he's out as female now. But then and again, there are a lot of things people do that I don't understand. I think it's all a very long process. Maybe he isn't to that part of his own process yet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. What is your point about transgendered people? (Not being snarky!!! I have a feeling you're playing devil's advocate here. :)) You seemed to be saying that transgender is not a mental illness, because it can't be cured by therapy. So I said that not all mental illnesses can be cured by therapy. To be honest, I don't really like the term "mental illness". I think the distinction between psychiatric and neurological disorders is pretty arbitrary. I think transgender is more of a neurological issue than a psychiatric issue, if you prefer. I think that some brain area is wired differently somehow, and I don't think you're going to be able to fix that by talking about it (for one, I know many people have tried and failed). I'm not convinced it's possible to find a medication either. But whether it's a (neurological/psychiatric/mental) disorder or not would really depend on how one defines something to be a disorder. There are people who argue autism is not a disorder either. I think (I'm not 100% sure, but I think I've read about this) there are people who believe bipolar and schizophrenia are not disorders either. That these things are just part of neurodiversity. I'm not sure that's all that helpful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 You seemed to be saying that transgender is not a mental illness, because it can't be cured by therapy. So I said that not all mental illnesses can be cured by therapy. To be honest, I don't really like the term "mental illness". I think the distinction between psychiatric and neurological disorders is pretty arbitrary. I think transgender is more of a neurological issue than a psychiatric issue, if you prefer. I think that some brain area is wired differently somehow, and I don't think you're going to be able to fix that by talking about it (for one, I know many people have tried and failed). I'm not convinced it's possible to find a medication either. But whether it's a (neurological/psychiatric/mental) disorder or not would really depend on how one defines something to be a disorder. There are people who argue autism is not a disorder either. I think (I'm not 100% sure, but I think I've read about this) there are people who believe bipolar and schizophrenia are not disorders either. That these things are just part of neurodiversity. I'm not sure that's all that helpful. That's not what I was saying. I wasn't addressing mental illness in general. I do not believe that transgendered people are mentally ill or that they have any kind of disorder. I do believe mental illness and other disorders exist and that many of them can be successfully treated. But I don't think that has anything to do with transgender. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Thanks. This is helpful to know. Then, my second question becomes more important. If feeling more feminine (as a man) were acceptable in our society, would there be a need to transgender? Couldn't he just be a man who has more stereotypically feminine feelings? (which are society defined) THis is an interesting question. There are actually a few different sets of ideas about what it really even means to be transgendered, so it isn't really a question that has one accepted answer I would say. And there seem to be some people that pick up ideas from a variety of them, but some of them don't really make a lot of sense when you put them together. I think that is to some extent what your question is getting at. So - for example, there are those who see sex, being a man or women, as mainly a biological phenomena which has related cultural aspects, and so people who are transgendered in that view probably have some biological source for feeling - not necessarily all the same source, it could be a variety of phenomena with similar effects. So - while in this view less delineated ideas about masculinity or femininity might make it easier I suppose, it probably would not prevent it - the lack of feeling at home in ones body has some kind of objective physiclal origin. Then there is at the opposite end a view which says that sex and biology is only a minor factor or does not exist at all, there are only social constructs of gender. People may identify with either gender, or in some cases an number of other non-bianary "genders" or in some cases more than one gender. It is a little harder in this way of thinking to pin down why someone identifies one way or the other, and it seems more plausible that a society that had very fuzzy edges around gender might have fewer people who felt they weren't fitting in. The implications for dealing with the problem seem rather different too depending on whether it is understood in one way or the other. In the latter type of approach, I think it would be a lot harder to justify things like surgery or drugs to change the body, since that is seen to be less important to identity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clementine Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm not saying it will. Therapy alone doesn't cure bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia either. That doesn't mean they're not classified as mental illnesses. "Gender Identity Disorder is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual-4th Edition (DSM-IV), a guide used by mental health professionals to diagnose psychological conditions. Transgender identity is not a mental illness that can be cured with treatment." Quoted from several sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I do not believe that transgendered people are mentally ill or that they have any kind of disorder. But then how would you justify getting treatment (GRS, hormones, etc) covered by insurance (which it often isn't, fwiw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 But then how would you justify getting treatment (GRS, hormones, etc) covered by insurance (which it often isn't, fwiw). I'm sorry, but I have no interest in going off on this tangent with you. Hopefully someone else will respond instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I didn't mention religion or homosexuality. I said what *I* think of this particular issue. Again, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean any of the things you suggest it does. It does suggest a certain level of arrogance or insensitivity, though, to blithely say that the fact that you "don't agree with" or "don't believe in" something means that someone who has actual experience with it must be mentally ill. 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit29 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I think understanding that gender and sexuality are different things is quite difficult. For people with out a reference point, especially, it's difficult to realize. It wasn't until I read personal stories of both transitioning and coming out that I was able to understand it. So I think if someone can't understand it initially, doesn't mean they never will. Whether people agree with it or not, it's there and it's real. But how we react to it is what matters. Interesting discussions that get brought up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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