Should I "force" daughter to do Latin?

[LAmom]

My dd11 claims to hate Latin. Her background in it is a little bit of Getting Started With Latin. Now I have her trying to use First Form. She dreads it, complains about it, etc. She says she doesn't want to do Latin. So, what would you do? Encourage her and help her to push on, as it will likely build character to push through something you hate and may actually benefit her by learning the challenging task of Latin language? Or will she just continue complaining about it so move on and try something else?

[Critterfixer]

How are you using First Form? That would be my first question. If I had not had the experience of teaching Prima, and LC, First Form might have kicked me in the teeth if I didn't know what to expect. It still beats me up at times, usually when I get caught in an error at the board by my boys. 

But we do it together. We watch the DVD's together, we talk about it together, and I copy every exercise into a notebook and do it while the boys do their exercise. We even study our Latin vocab and grammar together an evening or two per week. 

It's kind of our family language study. Makes it less of a pain when we are all in it together.

[Rosie_0801]

If you have to do another language and she has one she'd rather do, do that.

If you have to do another language and there isn't one she'd rather do, stick to the Latin, but try and find a program that is more tolerable.

If you don't have to do another language, have her learn to sew or something else productive instead.

[Reefgazer]

If you consider Latin a non-negotiable core subject like English or math, then you ought to make her do it.  But I would look to choosing a program more desirable and suitable to her.  If it's just a foreign language you are looking for and not specifically Latin, then let her choose the foreign language.

[Reefgazer]

Oh, yeah, this. 

How are you using First Form? That would be my first question. If I had not had the experience of teaching Prima, and LC, First Form might have kicked me in the teeth if I didn't know what to expect. It still beats me up at times, usually when I get caught in an error at the board by my boys. 

But we do it together. We watch the DVD's together, we talk about it together, and I copy every exercise into a notebook and do it while the boys do their exercise. We even study our Latin vocab and grammar together an evening or two per week. 

It's kind of our family language study. Makes it less of a pain when we are all in it together.

 

[ikslo]

What's your motive behind making her learn Latin?

 

If someone had forced me to learn Latin, I never would have developed my love of German and Greek.  The thought of Latin made me groan. Those 6 months each of Spanish and French in middle school - dreadful.  I chose to learn German (5 1/2 years) and Greek (3 years) in high school/college.  Pure bliss.

 

Suggest to your DD she research which language she would like to learn, and come back to you with a well-thought out reason why, and if she does - let her switch.  Her education is for HER benefit, not yours.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

If you consider Latin a non-negotiable core subject like English or math, then you ought to make her do it.  But I would look to choosing a program more desirable and suitable to her.  If it's just a foreign language you are looking for and not specifically Latin, then let her choose the foreign language.

:iagree:

 

Foreign languages can be a huge challenge.  If there is NO motivation and it is really a slog then this will just make both of you miserable.  Maybe step back to a more basic Latin program like Latin for Children.  Or instead of doing a full Latin language program just work on Latin and Greek roots for a year then tackle it again when she is older.

 

Or consider what others have said and give her a chance to pick a different language.  Start slow.  Make it fun.  Give her a chance to see that a foreign language can be fun and interesting, not just a mandatory chore.  Sure it is important to learn that sometimes you have to work through the hard stuff, the stuff that isn't as interesting.  I just wouldn't use foreign language to teach that lesson with a child that young that still has an opportunity to see how interesting and valuable acquiring another language can be.  It may turn her against any foreign language, kill all motivation to even try, and without at least some mastery, what's the point?

 

Does she have any friends learning a foreign language (including Latin)?  Maybe they could correspond or have weekly study sessions together or play games that incorporate that language?

[KrissiK]

I have no experience with Getting Started... But First Form Latin is tough and if that is her first introduction to MP's curriculum, I can imagine why she hates it. If you want to stick with Latin, I would back up and do Latina Christiana first.

[LAmom]

Whatever hatred she has doesn't come from First Form. It was there before. I ask her why and she says it is because it is a dead language and she wants to speak a language. I say it will help with grammar and vocabulary, etc. She does have interest in Greek and German...

[Kiara.I]

Whatever hatred she has doesn't come from First Form. It was there before. I ask her why and she says it is because it is a dead language and she wants to speak a language. I say it will help with grammar and vocabulary, etc. She does have interest in Greek and German...

 

 

So there's one answer: Immediately starting doing either Greek, or German (or both!)  She WANTS to learn a language, she has a specific one she's interested in, by all means.  Do so.

 

That, however, is a separate question from, should you continue doing Latin.  There are good reasons to do Latin (and wow, they'd help with German grammar!)  So, is Latin a non-negotiable base skill for you? Or is it "just another language requirement"?  The answer to that question will likely answer whether you should force her or not.

 

Or of course the third option of "don't force, but don't let her quit, instead garner her co-operation either by changing how you're doing it or convincing her it's a good idea."

[Hunter]

Do you know Latin yourself? Do YOU love it? Do you find it easy to teach? How important do you think it is?

 

I have a strong LCC background. I didn't know how to teach English to students with no Latin, but I have had to learn for my tutoring students. For a child of my own, though, I just would have made him suck it up, enough to provide the base to teach English.

 

I let my older quit Latin in the 8th grade. He was well over 200 pounds, bearded, and I had bigger issues than Latin or even English. He went out and started working on the docks, and that was where he needed to be–sweating, in pain, and stinking to high heaven. The only languages he was learning out there were bits that the seasonal workers from Taiwan and Nepal were speaking and a bit of Japanese.

[ikslo]

She does have interest in Greek and German...

 

♥♥♥♥

[momacacia]

She does have interest in Greek and German...

If she is that vehemently against Latin, I would run with this. If you care about roots work, start with the Greek and fill in at some point (when she's relaxed a bit about the Latin) with some Latin roots work as vocabulary work. She'll get tons of root work from the Greek also.

[Rosie_0801]

Somewhere, if you can search Ester Maria's posts, she talks about stages of language learning and the importance of not quitting at the boring bit. Now while your dd might prefer German or Greek, she'll still bump into this stage and want to quit. She might appreciate that warning in advance. :lol:

[Coco_Clark]

Is it a hill you are willing to die on?  I mean, if it is, by all means camp down.  I have my own hills, believe me.  But Latin?  I'd drop it.  My kids will have plenty of character-building, push-through-it, experiences without me adding more just for the heck of it.  There's always algebra  ;)  

 

It sounds like you are just in it for the vocab and root words.  There are LOTS of ways to add to your vocabulary.  Easier, more enjoyable ways.  There are also root-word programs that don't require declining verbs, if it's that important to you.  I say, let the child learn Greek.   

[ALB]

Greek is another viable option that sounds like it would meet your goals.  

Personally, I do consider Latin a core, non-negotiable subject, but of course everyone has their own priorities and situation to consider.  My dd has complained about the "dead language" part of it, so we go through that often.  I try to make it more relevant with Latin songs, and she also gets excited when she sees Latin phrases or words in daily life (and there a LOT of them around!).  

We are also doing FFL, but have already done LC and PL, so it's not too much of a jump.  The videos are useful, and I allot a good portion of my teaching time to going through the lessons thoroughly every day.  No, it isn't easy.  I often take my teacher manual to bed with me at night and sometimes complain to my dh about the endless lists to memorize.  He reminds me that we are "climbing Parnassus" and I can't give up now :).  I remember why we are doing it: training our minds, shaping character, cultivating the habit of careful attention to detail, preserving a beautiful and valuable educational legacy that has been built over thousands of years...

I'm not trying to guilt you into persevering, just offering encouragement in case that's the direction your heart is telling you!

[Orthodox6]

I would use "First Form" for wrapping paper rather than as a textbook. Opinions of textbooks are subjective by definition, I readily acknowledge.

 

I never have bought into the belief that Latin is essential. I maintain, rather, that solid study of any inflected language (or more than one if time and interest permit) is essential for a good education.

[wapiti]

How far did you get in GSWL and why did you drop it? She didn't like that either?

 

If you can confirm that it's the language rather than the program, I would be open to doing German or Greek instead. Both are inflected, I think.

[LAmom]

She did half of GSWL and didn't like it. First Form we have only done intro and lesson 1! She just isn't motivated to learn. I read good things about why to study Latin but not 100% convinced. She is pushing through the basics of school already without any joy, so maybe the language should be one that is "fun" and something she looks forward to. I would focus in on German more I just don't know what curriculum to use. I can speak it and semi-read/understand. Greek has some benefits that you'd have in learning Latin plus the benefit of New Testament. I will talk to her about this today. I will let her know that German and Greek and any other language will have its difficulties and boring parts. I will look through First Form with her too.

[Reefgazer]

Tell her it's not dead, it's immortal.

Whatever hatred she has doesn't come from First Form. It was there before. I ask her why and she says it is because it is a dead language and she wants to speak a language. I say it will help with grammar and vocabulary, etc. She does have interest in Greek and German...

 

[In The Great White North]

First Form is really dry, and makes Latin seem even more like a dead language.  Perhaps she would respond better to something more "whole to parts" like Lingua Latina or Cambridge Latin, even as a supplement.

[MiMi 4under3]

I'd go back to GSWL because it's just easier than First Form. Yes, I'd force her.

 

Why? "Because I said so! Latin is good for you, dear. Like vitamins for the brain."   :lol:

[TracyP]

She did half of GSWL and didn't like it. First Form we have only done intro and lesson 1! She just isn't motivated to learn. I read good things about why to study Latin but not 100% convinced. She is pushing through the basics of school already without any joy, so maybe the language should be one that is "fun" and something she looks forward to. I would focus in on German more I just don't know what curriculum to use. I can speak it and semi-read/understand. Greek has some benefits that you'd have in learning Latin plus the benefit of New Testament. I will talk to her about this today. I will let her know that German and Greek and any other language will have its difficulties and boring parts. I will look through First Form with her too.

 

You speak German and your dd would like to learn German? I would drop Latin like a hot potato and switch to German. If you start a thread, I'm sure you'll get recommendations. You might try here and cross-post on the high school board. I am in the Latin is non-negotiable camp, but only because I don't have the ability to teach a spoken language. If I spoke any foreign language, I would be teaching it to my kids.

 

If you decide to keep Latin, I would definitely consider trying a different program. I thought FF looked dry as dirt. We ended up using GSWL followed by Latin Prep. My dd liked GSWL okay, but she LOVES Latin Prep. Of course, LP doesn't have DVDs so that brings up other issues. I don't know how long I am going to be able to teach it... Maybe a supplement like the pp suggested would work.

 

[ikslo]

For German DS8 is using The Learnables and duolingo, and some iPad apps.  If he has choice on what subject to pick first, German is usually at the top of the list (i.e., he enjoys it).

[Shellydon]

What about Visual Latin, or just doing Latin Vocabulary like Vocabulary from Classic Roots or something similar?

[Hunter]

I'm still not sure what YOUR Latin background is. If you are expecting her to learn a langauge that you do not speak yourself and that she doesn't like, then, YES! I do think you should let her quit. If you think the langauge is important enough that you have taken the time to learn it yourself, and refer to it when teaching English, then she should stick with it, as it's an integral part of the family's way of communicating.

[Sahamamama]

My dd11 claims to hate Latin. Her background in it is a little bit of Getting Started With Latin. Now I have her trying to use First Form. She dreads it, complains about it, etc. She says she doesn't want to do Latin. So, what would you do? Encourage her and help her to push on, as it will likely build character to push through something you hate and may actually benefit her by learning the challenging task of Latin language? Or will she just continue complaining about it so move on and try something else?

 

Haven't read the other responses.

 

I wouldn't hand First Form to an 11 year old and walk away. In fact, it would be hard as an adult to be "in it" all alone. I keep trying to work my way through it, but it's a slog, I think. I doubt very much that we will move up to it when my oldest student is finished with LC I. I'll probably take her into Henle, since I've done some of that and preferred it to First Form. Or we'll find something else entirely. First Form is a book I would regularly throw at a wall. Have you actually used it with your daughter?

 

I'm working through Prima Latina with my 2nd graders and Latina Christian I with my 4th grader. I've been learning Latin with them, and trying to get a bit ahead. I would never in a million years expect them to learn Latin on their own while I cheered them on from the sidelines. HTH.

[LAmom]

Haven't read the other responses.

 

I wouldn't hand First Form to an 11 year old and walk away. In fact, it would be hard as an adult to be "in it" all alone. I keep trying to work my way through it, but it's a slog, I think. I doubt very much that we will move up to it when my oldest student is finished with LC I. I'll probably take her into Henle, since I've done some of that and preferred it to First Form. Or we'll find something else entirely. First Form is a book I would regularly throw at a wall. Have you actually used it with your daughter?

 

I'm working through Prima Latina with my 2nd graders and Latina Christian I with my 4th grader. I've been learning Latin with them, and trying to get a bit ahead. I would never in a million years expect them to learn Latin on their own while I cheered them on from the sidelines. HTH.

 

 

At first I was hoping I could just hand it to her and walk away.  But, there is so much to juggle--DVD, CD, textbook, workbook, flashcards, etc., that I decided to sit with her.  I have no desire to learn Latin.  I don't mind the root words but heck no I am not learning the endings, etc.  Not a language person.  I grew up with German and once I took the class in college I struggled greatly with the endings and feminine, masculine, etc.  Anyways, I think we will do a few more lessons and see how it goes.  Then I may just forget it and go with German only and some latin/greek root words.  

I really appreciate everyone's helpful advice.

[ALB]

We are doing FFL and it's really not that bad!  Yes it is hard work, but learning a foreign language is always hard work (I have learned both Thai and Mandarin as an adult and believe me, it is painfully difficult to master another language!).  The DVD's are helpful and the guy (I forget his name) is humorous and interesting to listen to.  

No, it's definitely not something you can hand to a student and expect them to figure it out.  I spend a good amount of time reading ahead and trying to understand lessons before we get to them.  Honestly, I can't see how you could successfully teach Latin unless you are willing to learn it yourself as you go along.  Although I try to stay ahead of my dd, we are definitely in this together and I think that helps her get a lot more out of it.  We play a lot of games, quiz each other with flashcards, make up secret messages for each other in Latin and so on.  In fact, our whole family is getting involved because we see it as a very worthwhile pursuit.   

[Hunter]

At first I was hoping I could just hand it to her and walk away. But, there is so much to juggle--DVD, CD, textbook, workbook, flashcards, etc., that I decided to sit with her. I have no desire to learn Latin. I don't mind the root words but heck no I am not learning the endings, etc. Not a language person. I grew up with German and once I took the class in college I struggled greatly with the endings and feminine, masculine, etc. Anyways, I think we will do a few more lessons and see how it goes. Then I may just forget it and go with German only and some latin/greek root words.

I really appreciate everyone's helpful advice.

I hope I'm not being rude. I'm not meaning to. Ignore me if you want. Why do you want your daughter to learn Latin, if you don't think it's important to learn it yourself?

 

I taught Latin because I had learned Latin and it was how I was first introduced to grammar. My Latin teacher is the one who taught me all the grammar I knew. I also had an undechallenged 2E kid and not much money, and I had a copy of Latin Made Simple and then I saved up for Henle Latin. It kept my little guy busy and it kept the schoolboard off my back about the details of what I was NOT doing. Seeing that he was 5 years advanced in math and Latin according to their schedule kept them from looking too much deeper.

 

My older son took a little Latin at his charter school and I supplemented that a bit, enough to teach him some grammar. His charter school attempted to teach Latin without teaching grammar. :confused1: But what they did teach him was enough, that I only had to supplement a tiny bit, before I could teach him English grammar the only way I knew how.

 

In the scenario you are describing, I would never require a chiild to learn Latin. I don't think it's possible for her to learn Latin that way.

[Sahamamama]

At first I was hoping I could just hand it to her and walk away.  But, there is so much to juggle--DVD, CD, textbook, workbook, flashcards, etc., that I decided to sit with her.  I have no desire to learn Latin.  I don't mind the root words but heck no I am not learning the endings, etc.  Not a language person.  I grew up with German and once I took the class in college I struggled greatly with the endings and feminine, masculine, etc.  Anyways, I think we will do a few more lessons and see how it goes.  Then I may just forget it and go with German only and some latin/greek root words.  

I really appreciate everyone's helpful advice.

 

If you do decide to drop Latin, but still would like your daughter to learn word roots, you might want to take a look at English from the Roots Up (Volumes 1 & 2). We're using only the cards; I don't see a purpose to getting the book (??). Anyway, these cards are a great way for a student to learn Greek & Latin roots (and later, derivatives). Even my 2nd graders are learning the roots & meanings this year, and they are enjoying it.

 

Here's a link about another person's choice to drop Latin and learn roots instead:

 

http://www.thecurriculumchoice.com/2010/01/english-from-the-roots-up/

 

Once your students are proficient with some roots & meanings, they might enjoy playing these games:

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/007729

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/019911

 

HTH.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

I have no desire to learn Latin.  I don't mind the root words but heck no I am not learning the endings, etc.

 

I suspect this is your biggest problem.  She has probably picked up on this and is feeling the same way.  

 

Given this, switching to German is probably your best bet.  You'll be much more successful with a subject you can be enthusiastic about.

[J-rap]

If it is an important part of your family's homeschooling program, then I'd stick with it but maybe lighten up a bit.  If it isn't crucial but a foreign language is (it was with us), I'd let her pick it.

 

We told our kids they had to study a foreign language, and they could pick it.  I probably would have gone with anything.  But three chose Spanish, one chose French, and one chose German.  (I spoke only a little Spanish, although my husband was fluent in both Spanish and French.)

 

As young kids and through 7th grade or so, we worked on it every year, but it was nothing like math or or science or history.  We tried out different programs, worked on them a little bit 3 days/week or less, and kept at it.  Early on, it was mostly songs that they listened to and learned basic vocabulary.  A little later, it was putting stickers up around the house to learn the names of different things.  It was all very rudimentary and rather fun.

 

But somehow, that little bit that we did prepared them for 4 really solid years of doing it in high school, where they did it either online, at a local high school, or through a tele-program that our town had.  I think they've gotten pretty good with their foreign languages.  I believe just exposing them early (even though we never really worked too hard at it) got them hearing and learning and speaking the sounds in another languages more easily.  The year after high school, all of my children took a gap year and went abroad.  Two of them chose to study in an immersion type environment with the same language they had been studying.  They are now completely fluent in those languages.  The others didn't pursue their languages as strongly after high school, although one of them chose to live in a German boarding house in NYC for a year when he was going to school there!  Even the ones that never became fluent seem to pick up the gist of languages quite easily when they're traveling.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts so that you're not too stressed about doing it heavily at a younger age.  I know that's supposed to be ideal, but at least it worked out with us to do it a little differently.  :)