How to respond to my teen.

[albeto.]

Pretty much nothing new gets said here.  So..  LOL

 

:laugh:

[Dicentra]

Huh. I don't know who Baumrind is, but I don't much care for that distinction at all. I find it illogical and, I dunno, reactionary?

 

Yeah, I don't buy it.

 

:sleep:

 

Forgive me, albeto.  My post was meant as a compliment, not in a derogatory or "labeling" way. :)

 

Diana Baumrind is a developmental psychologist who is known for her research on parenting styles.  Her original theory of three basic parenting styles was expanded to 4 by Maccoby and Martin.  In essence, the authoritative parenting style is defined as follows (from Wikipedia):

"Authoritative parenting is characterized by a child-centered approach that holds high expectations of maturity. Authoritative parents can understand how their children are feeling and teach them how to regulate their feelings. Even with high expectations of maturity, authoritative parents are usually forgiving of any possible shortcomings. [27] They often help their children to find appropriate outlets to solve problems. Authoritative parents encourage children to be independent but still place limits on their actions.[24] Extensive verbal give-and-take is not refused, and parents try to be warm and nurturing toward the child.[24] Authoritative parents are not usually as controlling as authoritarian parents, allowing the child to explore more freely, thus having them make their own decisions based upon their own reasoning. Often, authoritative parents produce children who are more independent and self-reliant."

 

In contrast, permissive parenting is defined as follows:

"Indulgent parenting, also called permissive, non-directive or lenient,[33] is characterized as having few behavioral expectations for the child. "Indulgent parenting is a style of parenting in which parents are very involved with their children but place few demands or controls on them".[24] Parents are nurturing and accepting, and are responsive to the child's needs and wishes. Indulgent parents do not require children to regulate themselves or behave appropriately.The children will grow into adulthood not accustomed to aggression in others due to their inappropriate behavior which would be a great shock to them. As adults, they will pay less attention in avoiding behaviors which cause aggression in others[citation needed].

Permissive parents try to be "friends" with their child, and do not play a parental role.[34] The expectations of the child are very low, and there is little discipline. Permissive parents also allow children to make their own decisions, giving them advice as a friend would. This type of parenting is very lax, with few punishments or rules.[34] ("The Four"). Permissive parents also tend to give their children whatever they want and hope that they are appreciated for their accommodating style. Other permissive parents compensate for what they missed as children, and as a result give their children both the freedom and materials that they lacked in their childhood.

Children of permissive parents may tend to be more impulsive and as adolescents may engage more in misconduct such as drug use.[37] "Children never learn to control their own behavior and always expect to get their way."[24] But in the better cases they are emotionally secure, independent and are willing to learn and accept defeat. They mature quickly and are able to live life without the help of someone else."

 

Again, forgive me. :)  I just finished teaching all of this in an intro psych course I taught last semester and so was thinking that, based on your advice, I would have thought you were more an authoritative parent than a permissive parent according to the developmental psychology definitions.  I would never presume to put you (or anyone else!) in a labeled box, though. :)

[unsinkable]

Yes.

I disagree. IMO, You have an intense need to control conversations and this interaction just solidifies that opinion.

 

But you win. I deleted what you posted that I feel shows you doing exactly what you castigated another poster for doing.

[albeto.]

 

Again, forgive me. :)  I just finished teaching all of this in an intro psych course I taught last semester and so was thinking that, based on your advice, I would have thought you were more an authoritative parent than a permissive parent according to the developmental psychology definitions.  I would never presume to put you (or anyone else!) in a labeled box, though. :)

 

 

No offense! :)

 

I don't like this list and I'll explain why:

 

Characteristics of the Permissive Parenting Style

Permissive parents:

• Have few rules or standards of behavior (rules - no, expectations - yes: the expectations are clear and consistent)
• When there are rules, they are often very inconsistent (few rules, in fact, I can't think of any, so... N/A?)
• Are usually very nurturing and loving towards their kids (yes, to the best of my ability, yes)
• Often seem more like a friend, rather than a parent. (Here's where I start to raise an eyebrow. What does that mean to "be a parent"? This already indicates a standard of authority and control I do not accept or demand in my home. Like a friend? In lots of ways, yeah, aren't we all? Like a friend? In lots of ways no. Not at all. Different. More. As they get older, our relationships change, and my role in their lives will continue to be redefined to accommodate new people, new friends, new mentors.)
• May use bribery such as toys, gifts and food as a means to get child to behave (I have a hypothesis that all rewards, from gifts to privileges to affection, could be labeled as bribes if one so desires. This would include the authoritarian method as described by this site.  It's manipulative, but then again, social skills could arguably refer to the skillful use of manipulation that benefits both parties. )

 

Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style

Authoritative parents:

• Listen to their children (And permissive parents don't? They listen to their children for how long? Until it's convenient? So long as the child abides by the rules established before hand? Does that count as listening if censorship is expected under certain circumstances?)
• Encourage independence (And permissive parents don't? I'd suggest permissive parents encourage independence as much, if not more, than authoritarian parents. We just go about it in different ways. Consider this thread as an example. What encourages independence more, allowing for the development of romantic relationships in teen years under conditions where parents are aware of the situation and can offer mentoring or help, or strict rules about no dating, who the appropriate dates might be, all the way to courtship practices?)
• Place limits, consequences and expectations on their children's behavior (In what way is placing limits and consequences different from withholding bribes as talked about above? Different set of bribes. Cookie vs. tv privileges? Borrowing the car vs. affection? It's all bribery if you want to deconstruct the behavior.)
• Express warmth and nurturance (And permissive parents don't? I mean, Srsly? lol!)
• Allow children to express opinions (In the same vain as allowing them to talk - until it is no longer convenient for the authority, at which time "consequences" [loss of bribes] are effected in order to assure convenient behavior.)
• Encourage children to discuss options (Only so long as is convenient for the authority, at which time "consequences" [loss of bribes] are effected in order to assure convenient behavior, which conveniently defines discussion of options as arguing.)
• Administer fair and consistent discipline (I disagree. I think the discipline is not fair, as it operates to favor the conveniences of the authority over the objective fairness to the one who does not hold equal power. I think that's why teen years are so often stressful, as teens seek to naturally claim some semblance of autonomy. I say naturally, because it's part of human behavior. When teens start to consider the arguments and reasons their parents employ certain disciplinary tactics, they may lose respect for them, and accept this so-called encouragement to discuss options. The point at which this discussion becomes uncomfortable for the parent, they fall back on the privileges of authority - ability and privilege to distribute resources as they desire. In other words, punishment/loss of bribery, negative social responses/anger, or giving in, only to build up the feeling of loss of control and resentment over that fact)

 

 

I know this isn't your opinion, you're referencing something you learned. I never studied child development, but this list seems really skewed in favor of conventional parenting that relies on power and control to slowly develop those behaviors that are understood as "good" (which I consider, "convenient").

 

I can't comment on the relative effects of these styles of parenting because, well, I don't know what studies were referenced to produce these conclusions, but mostly because I disagree with the definitions in the first place.

 

 

 

(ETA: Just read these lists to dh, who laughed. So it's not just me, but it might be just us! ^_^)

 

[Catwoman]

Yes.

That seems wrong to me.

 

I don't particularly like it when people pull up my old posts, either, but I don't think I have the right to tell others they can't do it, nor do I believe they don't have the right to disagree with me.

 

If you disagree with unsinkable's interpretation of your posts, I think it is perfectly fine to say so, but it sounded more like you were accusing her of stalking you or something, and I didn't get that impression at all. It appeared that she remembered a recent post you made and thought it contradicted what you posted in this thread, so she mentioned it. Unless there is something else going on here that I'm missing, I don't see it as being a big deal -- you didn't agree with her interpretation of your posts -- but I'm getting the impression that you're angry about it, and I can't figure out why that is.

[Joanne]

I disagree. IMO, You have an intense need to control conversations and this interaction just solidifies that opinion.

 

But you win. I deleted what you posted that I feel shows you doing exactly what you castigated another poster for doing.

 

1) Your opinion of my need to control conversations is another inappropriate post, non responsive to this thread, personal. I have NOT been personal in response.

 

2) I'm not sure if "win" is appropriate here.

 

3) Thank you for your feedback. I found that thread, and changed my share.

[Χά�ων]

I did have that very thought that they are permissive so someone else can be the bad guy. We don't know this family at all. I met the father once for 15 minutes and have never met the mother.

 

On the upside, they do seems to like my son. Glad he uses his manners somewhere.

 

My son is not a teen, but I always make it a point to get to know the parents and families of my son's friends. Maybe invite them over for cards or families board games?

[Laura Corin]

 

I realize there are cultural differences in the world. But this, on top of other remarks in the thread, have me sitting here fascinated. I left home at just-turned-17 (having graduated from high school early). I guess I'm wondering what makes all these teens submit to this level of control. 

 

Yes.  Calvin went off to university eight hours from home at 17.  I just can't imagine his submitting (or my wanting him to submit) to detailed control at that age.

[Scarlett]

I can't get past a 14/17 yo dating situation.

 

where is that suppose to go?

[Tsuga]

If you're not getting the behavior you want, you're either dealing with a self-reinforcing behavior, or not controlling access to reinforcement from the environment, or not rewarding enough, or using the wrong reward, or lumping too many behaviors together.

 

LOL! It is surely the self-reinforcing behavior. My kids get such a kick out of pissing me off that any form of negative reinforcement or even total lack of stimulation is +15,678,938 positive reinforcement in their little mental books. I don't even have to look angry. Just the knowledge that I have to respond is enough for them, or at least the older one.

 

Anyway, that's how it was. Slowly it's getting better. But my god what a long road compared to some people... and I doubt when they are teens it will be better.

 

It is almost like they have personalities and social-emotional lives and intellectual narratives completely independent of my fantasies.

[swellmomma]

Having only read the first page of responses thus far and not the rest, my response would have been similar to many here.  I would have start with the look, you know that look you give your teens when wondering where on earth they placed their heads.  That in itself would have given pause enough to realize instantly what my answer would be.  WHich would be "on what planet did you think I would actually say yes to that request?" (and yes I do pose that question to them, and get some interesting answers back).  If they persisted with a "but why?" as they sometimes do, My answers would be, A) I don't know her parents, B ) she is 14 and you will be 17, C) I didn't bust my a$$ raising you to this point to have you throw it all away in the heat of the moment on a vacation (jail bait discussion, and stat rape/sex offender), D) Last I checked I wasn't raising a moron, though the fact you are asking me this tells me I may have been wrong. and E) The parent of a minor child with an older boyfriend/girlfriend that they are just fine inviting along in the first place, are clearly not the adult role models I want supervising my teen for a week , I expect the adults in charge to have some common sense which they are clearly lacking.

Now I have had arguments in my home with my teens that are variations on the above though not due to underage dating, usually they don't argue past that point though they may come up with an alternative which I am happy to discuss.  Sometimes my 16 year old continues the argument just to argue to which he is told he is more than welcome to get a job and pay the bills at which time he is free to make any decisions he wants, but as long as he wants to live here as a minor with me supporting him the rules are the rules and rule #1 is momma don't raise no fools. ANd it is foolish to think I would ever be okay with this scenario.

Of course each family is different as outlined even on page 1 of this discussion, some are okay with it, some are not, we each respond differently as do our kids.  My teens will try to a point to get their way but they know where the line of no return is and don't want to get there.  Also some may find they don't like how I talk to my teens and in your families it may not work, but it is how we roll in this family and they get it.It rarely goes past the look of "go find your head, you lost it again"

[Tsuga]

I can't get past a 14/17 yo dating situation.

 

where is that suppose to go?

 

"My dad is 50 and mom won't be 50 for another two years so she's totally making fun of him. Isn't that hilarious? And they met in high school, can you imagine? Isn't that adorable?"

 

Look, I wouldn't minimize it emotionally, and certainly not if the law prohibits such people having any kind of sexual contact (which it doesn't in my state).

 

But I'm not really scandalized by it either. I dated a 17-year-old, immature, when I was 14. Double dates and board games were the order of the day. It ended quickly. Nothing more than kissing. I'm sure he had hormones but he also had morals.

[Laura Corin]

For me, the question would be not whether I trusted my son, but what the local laws were and whether I trusted the other parents.  Whilst I am not against pre-marital or teen sex in the right circumstances, I protect my sons from situations in which they might, in the heat of the moment, break the law.  So bedroom doors stay open whilst a relationship is potentially illegal.

 

So if I did not trust the other parents to work by the same rules, then the answer would be no, with a full explanation.  I would try very hard to keep explaining, meeting my son's arguments, until he ran out of steam.  I attempt to stay calm and to not shut conversations down.

 

For full disclosure: I recently shut down an argument with Hobbes about getting a decent night's sleep.  I told him that there were some givens in life and I wasn't going to argue them.  Amongst the givens were adequate sleep, basic nutrition, and socially-acceptable hygiene.

[kewb]

True, I do not approve of this girlfriend. However, after I voiced my initial concerns about the age gap in the beginning I have not said boo about it. I am nothing but nice to her. Give her rides home from swim practice when she needs one, ask questions about her day. My son is free to hang out with her as long as his schoolwork is done and any other obligations have been met. Which is the same rules for hanging out with anyone.

 

There could be some scapegoating. I am not blind to my son's character flaws. It just seems that a lot of the bad decisions started as her idea. And due to his own challenges he follows wherever she goes. Thus my dislike. I have always tried to teach my children that you want to be with someone who helps you be the best you that you can be. Someone who builds you up. Encourages you. Helps you succeed in your goals. She does not appear to do this. It is like a magnifying glass on all his worst behaviors. Entirely possible I am laying some blame at the wrong door.

 

I don't think her family is iresponsible or wrong. It shocked me because it is not something I would do. To me family vacations are about family. It also surprised me that they would not speak to my husband and me before extending such an invite.

 

I do appreciate all feedback. This is all new territory for me. I asked the question because I really just don't know if sometimes I am over reacting, being over protective, just plain wrong or if I should be sticking to my guns.

[unsinkable]

I can't get past a 14/17 yo dating situation.

 

where is that suppose to go?

Mini-golf?

[Scarlett]

"My dad is 50 and mom won't be 50 for another two years so she's totally making fun of him. Isn't that hilarious? And they met in high school, can you imagine? Isn't that adorable?"

 

Look, I wouldn't minimize it emotionally, and certainly not if the law prohibits such people having any kind of sexual contact (which it doesn't in my state).

 

But I'm not really scandalized by it either. I dated a 17-year-old, immature, when I was 14. Double dates and board games were the order of the day. It ended quickly. Nothing more than kissing. I'm sure he had hormones but he also had morals.

Your parents are 48 and 50. Hmm. That is very interesting info.

 

And yes I actually DO think it is adorable. I love a good love story and I do believe that deep bonds can be formed when kids are very young. I think my own son is forming such a bond now....but I am not going to give the two of them dating status or am I going to take my eyes off of them or their correspondences.

[Scarlett]

True, I do not approve of this girlfriend. However, after I voiced my initial concerns about the age gap in the beginning I have not said boo about it. I am nothing but nice to her. Give her rides home from swim practice when she needs one, ask questions about her day. My son is free to hang out with her as long as his schoolwork is done and any other obligations have been met. Which is the same rules for hanging out with anyone.

 

There could be some scapegoating. I am not blind to my son's character flaws. It just seems that a lot of the bad decisions started as her idea. And due to his own challenges he follows wherever she goes. Thus my dislike. I have always tried to teach my children that you want to be with someone who helps you be the best you that you can be. Someone who builds you up. Encourages you. Helps you succeed in your goals. She does not appear to do this. It is like a magnifying glass on all his worst behaviors. Entirely possible I am laying some blame at the wrong door.

 

I don't think her family is iresponsible or wrong. It shocked me because it is not something I would do. To me family vacations are about family. It also surprised me that they would not speak to my husband and me before extending such an invite.

 

I do appreciate all feedback. This is all new territory for me. I asked the question because I really just don't know if sometimes I am over reacting, being over protective, just plain wrong or if I should be sticking to my guns.

If this friend was a boy would you point out to your son the friend isn't a very good friend?

Don't be afraid of your son. He needs your guidance.

 

As for your response I believe you only went off the rails by getting mad and allows g your response ( no ) to turn into an argument. Remaining calm is vital.

[swellmomma]

So I asked my teens their thoughts on this topic.

DS16 said it was weird that the boy was dating a 14 year old to begin with, and he thought it was weird to invite the boy on a family vacation, as those are for families not friends.

DD15 said she thinks there is something weird with a 14 year old wanting to date a guy almost 3 years older than her, be good friend sure, her best friend is a 13 year old guy, but why are they dating at all she wants to know.  

I asked both what they thought my reaction would be...both started laughing and couldn't come up with a response because they said they know better than to even ask a question like that.

SO there are 2 responses from teens who are apparently too filled with hormones to think straight or make good decisions haha.  As for level of control, my ds16 has conduct disorder so he is not known for allowing anyone to control him, but even he wouldn't would go there with me.

[Seasider]

If there were any alternate universe where this situation were a good idea, how it would have gone down is the girl's parents would have contacted you guys privately to discuss it, not gotten your son all worked up about it before bothering to ask you. Now they look like the cool parents and you get to look like the mean, responsible ones. Another reason to have concerns about these parents.

I do agree that you, his parent, should receive a phone call or some sort of direct contact from her parents, and it would have been best received prior to the invitation being dangled out there to the teens.

[Rebel Yell]

Rebel Yell, on 16 Jan 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Ahh yes, THIS! :iagree:

 

Major events- anything beyond a regular local event or sleepover/birthday party is best handled by adults checking with the other parents first. When we invited a female friend for my daughter to go along on vacation, we talked to the parents first before inviting the girl.  For goodness sakes- when Diamond invited a life-long family friend to escort her to her Senior Prom we asked the parents first as we knew they did not allow him to date.

My head just exploded. 18?? To a senior prom which is very near graduation?? If the girl's parents have to ask his parents' permission for him to date their daughter, either the young people are not old enough to date or something is wrong with his parents.

 

I think.

 

I realize there are cultural differences in the world. But this, on top of other remarks in the thread, have me sitting here fascinated. I left home at just-turned-17 (having graduated from high school early). I guess I'm wondering what makes all these teens submit to this level of control. I say that as a pretty strict parent whose very conservative and religious sons rarely date, so it's not like I'm the one in the mini-skirt at the Harper Valley PTA meetings.

He was a junior, and 17 at the time. She was within a week of her 18th birthday.

 

His parents did not want him to date. Knowing this, we asked his parents if he would be allowed to accept the invitation if he wished to. She did not want to be the cause of any arguments or problems- but as life-long friends, she wanted him to be her date since there were no other likely prospects and she wanted a dance partner.

 

They went, and had a fabulous time! The Prom was a different case than a "Hey you're cute let's go make out at the movies" date and certainly far far different than a week's vacation.

[Dicentra]

No offense! :)

 

I don't like this list and I'll explain why:

 

Characteristics of the Permissive Parenting Style

Permissive parents:

• Have few rules or standards of behavior (rules - no, expectations - yes: the expectations are clear and consistent)
• When there are rules, they are often very inconsistent (few rules, in fact, I can't think of any, so... N/A?)
• Are usually very nurturing and loving towards their kids (yes, to the best of my ability, yes)
• Often seem more like a friend, rather than a parent. (Here's where I start to raise an eyebrow. What does that mean to "be a parent"? This already indicates a standard of authority and control I do not accept or demand in my home. Like a friend? In lots of ways, yeah, aren't we all? Like a friend? In lots of ways no. Not at all. Different. More. As they get older, our relationships change, and my role in their lives will continue to be redefined to accommodate new people, new friends, new mentors.)
• May use bribery such as toys, gifts and food as a means to get child to behave (I have a hypothesis that all rewards, from gifts to privileges to affection, could be labeled as bribes if one so desires. This would include the authoritarian method as described by this site.  It's manipulative, but then again, social skills could arguably refer to the skillful use of manipulation that benefits both parties. )

 

Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style

Authoritative parents:

• Listen to their children (And permissive parents don't? They listen to their children for how long? Until it's convenient? So long as the child abides by the rules established before hand? Does that count as listening if censorship is expected under certain circumstances?)
• Encourage independence (And permissive parents don't? I'd suggest permissive parents encourage independence as much, if not more, than authoritarian parents. We just go about it in different ways. Consider this thread as an example. What encourages independence more, allowing for the development of romantic relationships in teen years under conditions where parents are aware of the situation and can offer mentoring or help, or strict rules about no dating, who the appropriate dates might be, all the way to courtship practices?)
• Place limits, consequences and expectations on their children's behavior (In what way is placing limits and consequences different from withholding bribes as talked about above? Different set of bribes. Cookie vs. tv privileges? Borrowing the car vs. affection? It's all bribery if you want to deconstruct the behavior.)
• Express warmth and nurturance (And permissive parents don't? I mean, Srsly? lol!)
• Allow children to express opinions (In the same vain as allowing them to talk - until it is no longer convenient for the authority, at which time "consequences" [loss of bribes] are effected in order to assure convenient behavior.)
• Encourage children to discuss options (Only so long as is convenient for the authority, at which time "consequences" [loss of bribes] are effected in order to assure convenient behavior, which conveniently defines discussion of options as arguing.)
• Administer fair and consistent discipline (I disagree. I think the discipline is not fair, as it operates to favor the conveniences of the authority over the objective fairness to the one who does not hold equal power. I think that's why teen years are so often stressful, as teens seek to naturally claim some semblance of autonomy. I say naturally, because it's part of human behavior. When teens start to consider the arguments and reasons their parents employ certain disciplinary tactics, they may lose respect for them, and accept this so-called encouragement to discuss options. The point at which this discussion becomes uncomfortable for the parent, they fall back on the privileges of authority - ability and privilege to distribute resources as they desire. In other words, punishment/loss of bribery, negative social responses/anger, or giving in, only to build up the feeling of loss of control and resentment over that fact)

 

 

I know this isn't your opinion, you're referencing something you learned. I never studied child development, but this list seems really skewed in favor of conventional parenting that relies on power and control to slowly develop those behaviors that are understood as "good" (which I consider, "convenient").

 

I can't comment on the relative effects of these styles of parenting because, well, I don't know what studies were referenced to produce these conclusions, but mostly because I disagree with the definitions in the first place.

 

 

 

(ETA: Just read these lists to dh, who laughed. So it's not just me, but it might be just us! ^_^)

 

I think conventional parenting (depending on what one means by "conventional parenting" ;) ) is probably more along the lines of authoritarian parenting, as opposed to authoritative parenting.  It's unfortunate that Baumrind decided to use two such similar sounding words.  If you are interested in some of the studies that have been done, there are lots of hyperlinks at the bottom of the Wikipedia article on 'Parenting Styles'.

 

You're right - I was just giving the developmental psychologists accepted definition of permissive parenting. :)  It sounds as though the current cultural definition of permissive parenting you use is different. That's cool.  :coolgleamA:

[Tsuga]

Your parents are 48 and 50. Hmm. That is very interesting info.

 

And yes I actually DO think it is adorable. I love a good love story and I do believe that deep bonds can be formed when kids are very young. I think my own son is forming such a bond now....but I am not going to give the two of them dating status or am I going to take my eyes off of them or their correspondences.

No, no, my parents are old. That was an imaginary playing out of a 14/17 year old relationship for you, the point being, who knows?

 

I also don't know why my parents age would be interesting to you outside of ad hominem attack material. Rest assured, my parents are more liberal, less religious, more sexually liberated and quite frankly more experienced in every hedonistic heathen pleasure source there is. 😈 So whatever you're thinking about my age... It's not the age. We're just a bunch of open-minded pro-love leftists is all.

 

I think reading a teenager's love letters is bizarre and controlling. My mom never read mine. If I would have done anything to indicate she couldn't trust me, limits would have been set as needed to protect me.

[Scarlett]

No, no, my parents are old. That was an imaginary playing out of a 14/17 year old relationship for you, the point being, who knows?

 

I also don't know why my parents age would be interesting to you outside of ad hominem attack material. Rest assured, my parents are more liberal, less religious, more sexually liberated and quite frankly more experienced in every hedonistic heathen pleasure source there is. 😈 So whatever you're thinking about my age... It's not the age. We're just a bunch of open-minded pro-love leftists is all.

 

I think reading a teenager's love letters is bizarre and controlling. My mom never read mine. If I would have done anything to indicate she couldn't trust me, limits would have been set as needed to protect me.

You mistake attacking for simple explanation. Thought I had an explanation, but no, so oh well.

 

Who is reading teenagers love letters? I didn't catch that in op.

[Joker]

You mistake attacking for simple explanation. Thought I had an explanation, but no, so oh well.

 

Who is reading teenagers love letters? I didn't catch that in op.

 

I assume she was responding to you saying you don't plan to take your eyes off of them or their correspondences. So, it sounds like you read their writings/texts/emails, whatever.

 

 

In regards to the OP, I have a 15 year old dd but she doesn't date or have boyfriends yet. We wouldn't have a problem with her having a relationship with a boy and doing things with him but we would get to know the family. If we knew the family well, I could see vacations. My brother started dating his now wife when he was 15 and she was already a big part of our family by the time they married. She was invited to go everywhere with us and he with her. They didn't marry until after college so it turned out okay and nothing bad ever happened. I don't know what to say regarding the two year age difference because that would totally depend on the people involved. For some, two years is no big deal but it would be for others.

[Scarlett]

I assume she was responding to you saying you don't plan to take your eyes off of them or their correspondences. So, it sounds like you read their writings/texts/emails, whatever..

 

Oh I see. There are no love letters mainly because they know we will and do look at their chat or whatever. That is the point. They are too young to be going down that path even though we all ( the adults) can see by the looks between them and by other telling signs that there is an attraction.

[Tsuga]

You mistake attacking for simple explanation. Thought I had an explanation, but no, so oh well.

 

Who is reading teenagers love letters? I didn't catch that in op.

Sorry--I just don't see why my parents age is of interest to you. Thanks for clarifying.

 

As for the letters, you wrote that you would be monitoring your son's correspondence with his girlfriend. There was nothing along those lines suggested by OP.

 

Edit--on a phone, did not see your subsequent explanation. Of course we reserve the right to monitor chats and texts if necessary but we do not regularly monitor without due cause. Texts and chat are modern day love letters.

[kewb]

I want to thank everyone for helping me sort through my feelings and figure out an action plan.

Even though this thread took some interesting turns it was very helpful.

[Scarlett]

Sorry--I just don't see why my parents age is of interest to you. Thanks for clarifying.

 

As for the letters, you wrote that you would be monitoring your son's correspondence with his girlfriend. There was nothing along those lines suggested by OP.

 

Edit--on a phone, did not see your subsequent explanation. Of course we reserve the right to monitor chats and texts if necessary but we do not regularly monitor without due cause. Texts and chat are modern day love letters.

My son is 14. He doesn't have a girlfriend. And yes I realize if he had a gf his chats and texts would be the equivalent of love letters. When he is old enough to have a girlfriend I won't be reading them.

[Scarlett]

I want to thank everyone for helping me sort through my feelings and figure out an action plan.

Even though this thread took some interesting turns it was very helpful.

So does he have to do a paper? :)

[kewb]

No, he does not have to write a paper on this particular topic. He is busy working on a persuasive essay on why he should go to our local high school for senior year.

[MiMi 4under3]

In my experience, the loop ends in one of two ways. 1.) Appeal to a circumstance out of my control (ie, accusations of statutory rape and a lifetime on the sex offenders registry), 2.) Appeal to the more persuasive argument (I totally get you have reason to believe it wouldn't happen to you hon, but I in my experience these things do happen, and sometimes the situation is even more favorable than yours), or finally ) Appeal to my emotions, as frustrating as they may be, simply are too profound (even if you assured me until your lips were blue, it wouldn't reduce my fear, and so I cannot in good conscience support this). This lets the child know that sometimes things are out of our control, theirs and ours. It's not good or bad, it just is (ie, sex offender registry). We do our best to appeal to reason. The reason to consider potential sex offender registry is more persuasive when objectively considered - which is why shutting the conversation down is missing out on a great opportunity to develop a very useful skill. It also models for the child how to navigate tricky circumstances when your feelings are strong. Focusing on reason allows us to determine of our feelings are reasonable. All points of fact considered, which is the more reasonable argument here? A 17 yo with a 14 year old gf on a family vacation, or a 17 yo passing the time in a mature and productive way (work, friends)?

 

Being able to identify our fears and anxieties, and being able to articulate them models for the child how to do that as well. Not knowing how to identify our fears and anxieties puts us at the mercy of whatever promise of hope alleviates them for a time. That's not a practical means by which we solve problems, as kids or adults. First we have to identify the problem, then we have to brainstorm solutions. Finally, we have to recognize that sometimes the answers go against our best desires, and the ability to acknowledge this and know how to move on is a developmental skill that will continue to serve us in life. It puts us in a position of relative control over our circumstances to a greater extent than being at the mercy of our circumstances, with regard to dictating our next choices.

 

Right. Exactly.

 

Though, sometimes the child isn't able to / doesn't want to move on, even after all the beautifully thought out honest explanations as above, and says, "Yeah but, XYZ!"

 

That's when "Because I said so!" is a completely acceptable, final answer IMO.  :)

[Ellie]

So I asked my teens their thoughts on this topic.

 

DS16 said it was weird that the boy was dating a 14 year old to begin with, and he thought it was weird to invite the boy on a family vacation, as those are for families not friends.

 

DD15 said she thinks there is something weird with a 14 year old wanting to date a guy almost 3 years older than her, be good friend sure, her best friend is a 13 year old guy, but why are they dating at all she wants to know.  

 

I asked both what they thought my reaction would be...both started laughing and couldn't come up with a response because they said they know better than to even ask a question like that.

 

SO there are 2 responses from teens who are apparently too filled with hormones to think straight or make good decisions haha.  As for level of control, my ds16 has conduct disorder so he is not known for allowing anyone to control him, but even he wouldn't would go there with me.

 

I love your kids. :001_wub:

 

Good job. :-)

[Ellie]

I think you're naive and don't understand the neuroscience of sex.

 

I'm certainly not saying his desire to be with her is consciously all about sex, but if you don't think the subconscious need to have sex and companionship isn't figuring prominently into his emotional need to go on this trip, you're naive.

 

And we all have hormones, whether we live in your idealized "holistic" life or not.

 

Although I disagree with Joanne on this, I also completely disagree with your assessment of Joanne. Goodness.

[Joanne]

Although I disagree with Joanne on this, I also completely disagree with your assessment of Joanne. Goodness.

Thanks for your support!

 

If you read my opinion about the relationship (I am against) and about what should be done, we are probably actually on the same page, Ellie.

 

I was responding to the conversational shut down and level of control for the age in question.

 

And the assumption of a young man determined only by hormones and assumption of oblivious, permissive parents of the young woman.

[Jenny in Florida]

Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style

Authoritative parents:

• Listen to their children (And permissive parents don't? They listen to their children for how long? Until it's convenient? So long as the child abides by the rules established before hand? Does that count as listening if censorship is expected under certain circumstances?)
• Encourage independence (And permissive parents don't? I'd suggest permissive parents encourage independence as much, if not more, than authoritarian parents. We just go about it in different ways. Consider this thread as an example. What encourages independence more, allowing for the development of romantic relationships in teen years under conditions where parents are aware of the situation and can offer mentoring or help, or strict rules about no dating, who the appropriate dates might be, all the way to courtship practices?)
• Place limits, consequences and expectations on their children's behavior (In what way is placing limits and consequences different from withholding bribes as talked about above? Different set of bribes. Cookie vs. tv privileges? Borrowing the car vs. affection? It's all bribery if you want to deconstruct the behavior.)
• Express warmth and nurturance (And permissive parents don't? I mean, Srsly? lol!)
• Allow children to express opinions (In the same vain as allowing them to talk - until it is no longer convenient for the authority, at which time "consequences" [loss of bribes] are effected in order to assure convenient behavior.)
• Encourage children to discuss options (Only so long as is convenient for the authority, at which time "consequences" [loss of bribes] are effected in order to assure convenient behavior, which conveniently defines discussion of options as arguing.)
• Administer fair and consistent discipline (I disagree. I think the discipline is not fair, as it operates to favor the conveniences of the authority over the objective fairness to the one who does not hold equal power. I think that's why teen years are so often stressful, as teens seek to naturally claim some semblance of autonomy. I say naturally, because it's part of human behavior. When teens start to consider the arguments and reasons their parents employ certain disciplinary tactics, they may lose respect for them, and accept this so-called encouragement to discuss options. The point at which this discussion becomes uncomfortable for the parent, they fall back on the privileges of authority - ability and privilege to distribute resources as they desire. In other words, punishment/loss of bribery, negative social responses/anger, or giving in, only to build up the feeling of loss of control and resentment over that fact)

 

 

I know this isn't your opinion, you're referencing something you learned. I never studied child development, but this list seems really skewed in favor of conventional parenting that relies on power and control to slowly develop those behaviors that are understood as "good" (which I consider, "convenient").

 

I think you may be creating a binary that isn't accurate.

 

As I understand these theories, there is a spectrum of parenting practices that ranges from "permissive" at one end to "authoritarian" at the other, with "authoritative" sort of in the middle. Most of your notes about how you perceive authoritative characteristics seem to me to more properly apply to authoritarian parenting.

 

A quick Google search turned up an article from Psychology Today contrasting authoritarian/authoritative parent styles:

 

Authoritarian parents believe that children are, by nature, strong-willed and self-indulgent. They value obedience to higher authority as a virtue unto itself. Authoritarian parents see their primary job to be bending the will of the child to that of authority - the parent, the church, the teacher. Willfulness is seen to be the root of unhappiness, bad behavior, and sin. Thus a loving parent is one who tries to break the will of the child.  

Baumrind's exemplar of an authoritarian mother is Susanna Wesley, mother of the founders of the Methodist Church. She writes

As self-will is the root of all sin and misery, so whatsoever cherishes this in children ensures their after-wretchedness . . . whatever checks and mortifies it promotes their future happiness and piety.  

Wesley's discipine was "strict, consistent, and loving," clearly motivated by her love for her children (Baumrind's original description of authoritarian parenting with supporting quotes can be found on page 891here.).  

 

Authoritative parents are also strict, consistent, and loving, but their values and beliefs about parenting and children are markedly different. Authoritative parents are issue-oriented and pragmatic, rather than motivated by an external, absolute standard. They tend to adjust their expectations to the needs of the child. They listen to children's arguments, although they may not change their minds. They persuadeand explain, as well as punish. Most importantly, they try to balance the responsibility of the child to conform to the needs and demands of others with the rights of the child to be respected and have their own needs met (see page 891, above). 1

My students have always had trouble with the words 'authoritative' and 'authoritarian' because, over the years, they have come to be used almost synonymously. But they are fundamentally different, just as the words 'punishment' and 'discipline' are. Authoritative parents teach and guide their children. Their goal is to socialize their children so they come to accept and value what the parents value. They hope their children will internalize their goals. They are shepherds. The word 'authorative' was chosen to imply that parents have power because they are wiser and are legitimate guides to the culture.  

Authoritarian parents, however, exert control through power and coercion. They have power because they exert their will over their children.  

Interestingly, authoritative parents tend to be MORE strict and MORE consistent than authoritarian parents. They set fewer rules, but are better at enforcing them. The children of authorative and authoritarian parents tend to be equally well-behaved and high achieving. The children of authoritarian parents, however, tend to be somewhat more depressed and have lower self-esteem than those of authoritative parents.

 

Here's a link to the full article: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/thinking-about-kids/201409/authoritative-vs-authoritarian-parenting-style

[Tap]

I see lots of people calling out the other parents for not calling you about the invite.  Honestly, I don't think that is necessarily an issue.

 

This is how it loosely played out in my home (not exact words just something similar)

 

DD to boyfriend: Mom and I are going to the cabin for a week.  I will miss you. Wish you could be there with me.

Boyfriend to DD:  I wish I could go too. Or maybe....just don't go. I will miss you too much. Stay home with your dad.

DD to boyfriend:  I love the cabin and want to go.....hmmm, maybe you could go too. I'll ask mom.

 

 

DD to me: Hey mom, can boyfriend go to the cabin with us?

Me to DD: No, I don't think that is a good idea.

DD to me: Why? It won't be any different than us spending time together at home.

Me to DD: except the sleep over part.

DD to Me: We wouldn't do anything, we know that it would cause huge problems.

Me to DD: Right now it is a 'no' but let me think about it.

DD to me: I really want to show him my favorite places on earth, and the only way to do that is to take him with us.

Me to DD: okay I will think about it, but it is still a no for now.

 

 

DD brings it up at another time:

DD to me: what are your thoughts on the trip? I was thinking that I could sleep with you,  and boyfriend in the guest room so there won't be any temptation to sneak out to be together at night because you would wake up if I tried to leave the room. (Cabin is actually a 3000 sqft house with the master and guest room on opposites sides of the house, high ceilings and hard wood floors means you can't move about in silence)  Besides, it wouldn't be worth the problems it would create, I know that.

Me to DD: I am still thinking about it. I am concerned that if you guys break the rules that it will create problems between us and there will be repercussions in your freedoms.  I worry that I am creating a situation with too much temptation for you both to overcome and I don't want to put either of you in that situation. 

 

 

DD is a planner, so She comes up with a few hypothetical problems and solutions to those problems. (ie they get in a fight, etc) A few other similar conversations, and I say, "Okay he can come but here are the parameters and the consequences". 

 

THEY go to ask the grandfather (his guardian).  Grandpa says OK.  A few days later, I run into grandpa and ask him about the trip, give him details and verify that he is okay with it all.  He says "well, I know that if you gave them permission to ask, that you had all the details worked out." 

 

So, while I could have talked to grandpa to extend the invite, it wouldn't have really mattered because the teens were the ones who set the whole thing up.  If it was me extending the invite without the teens prompting it, then yeah, a call to the parent first would have been a good idea. They knew ahead of time, that if anyone would say no, it would be me. 

 

Our situation wasn't a family vacation, it was just dd and me going to the cabin for a week.  In the past she had always taken a friend on this trip with us, so having him along didn't change that dynamic.  Infact I spent more time with them that in previous years, because on of the rules was that they had to hang out in public spaces not in the bedrooms laying down.  Her and her girlfriends spent the majority of time in one of the bedrooms.

 

I am very glad he went on the trip with us. He was finally around me long enough to completely let his guard down and I got to see a very different side of him. After that trip, his and my relationship was different and it made things much easier over the next year.  

[Valley Girl]

I see lots of people calling out the other parents for not calling you about the invite.  Honestly, I don't think that is necessarily an issue.

 

...

 

 

THEY go to ask the grandfather (his guardian).  Grandpa says OK.  A few days later, I run into grandpa and ask him about the trip, give him details and verify that he is okay with it all.  He says "well, I know that if you gave them permission to ask, that you had all the details worked out." 

 

So, while I could have talked to grandpa to extend the invite, it wouldn't have really mattered because the teens were the ones who set the whole thing up.  If it was me extending the invite without the teens prompting it, then yeah, a call to the parent first would have been a good idea. They knew ahead of time, that if anyone would say no, it would be me. 

 

 

It sounds like your DD was very thorough in addressing potential objections and that the young man's grandfather was quite comfortable with your judgment. But that's not necessarily the case for the OP. I know it wouldn't be for me. If someone wants to take my still-minor child with them, they need to talk to ME. Just because the teens prompted the invitation and they and the other parents feel they've worked out all the issues doesn't mean I'm going to be OK with it or that they've addressed the issues to my satisfaction. I do realize other people do things differently with good results