Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Scarlett]

Actually, it is relevant to what Mergath said. So often on this very forum, myself and others who are open about being non christians say something to add to a topic that is from the bible only to be blasted and told that as non christian we could not possibly understand what, even if it is a direct quote from the bible. Honestly, it gets tiresome to attempt to add to a discussion only to be told that non christians cannot possibly understand anything from the bible because we lack the holy spirit to guide us.

 

I stand by my comment because it is based on multiple threads and multiple different posters chiming in to say over and over again that non Christians cannot understand the bible.

 

Is Mergath correct or is she unable to known anything that Jesus valued because she is a non Christian who does not understand?

 

Or is it more likely that non christians have an understanding of the bible and when they direct quote from the bible to support their POV and this happens to show that a christian is posting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to jesus own words that maybe, just maybe, the non christians actually are aware of what the bible and jesus says? Sincere question and one I would like addressed because it cannot be both ways all the time.

 

I for one am tired of the "no matter what a non christians says it is wrong" attitude and my post was a tongue in cheek comment that is very much relevant to the overall Us Vs Non Christians Who ack the Holy Spirit and are always wrong and The Christians can be as judgy as we want because they are non Christians and do not matter attitude of many posters. It does get tiresome.

What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about Christians? Or religion? Sounds like you just want to argue.

[elegantlion]

Abusive? Meh. Maybe maybe not. They are quakes IMO. In some ways those kids hits the lottery...in other ways they will be impaired.

 

Why? Because they see their parents doing well at their jobs and helping other people with the money they make? 

 

Again abusive? Depends on the definition of the moment. Mostly I think they are laughable. Sad that a little girls life is in the middle of it all.

 

 It's nice that parents let their little girl explore. I'm glad my parents didn't force me to be a girly girl. They wouldn't have succeeded anyway. 

 

And I think it would be very weird to let an 8 yo girl dress in a suit. But hey I could be in the minority.

 

Really? At 8 I was buying clothes in the boy's department because I liked them better. This was the early 70s, I wanted Red Toughskins jeans and a red jean jacket. Thankfully, my parents didn't care. I was all tomboy anyway. Clothes are just clothes, study history and you'll see how style evolves. It's all a social construct of what is appropriate. If I was going to special event at 8, I would have picked the suit over a dress. 

[Χά�ων]

What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about Christians? Or religion? Sounds like you just want to argue.

 

Read up

[texasmama]

Actually, it is relevant to what Mergath said. So often on this very forum, myself and others who are open about being non christians say something to add to a topic that is from the bible only to be blasted and told that as non christian we could not possibly understand what, even if it is a direct quote from the bible. Honestly, it gets tiresome to attempt to add to a discussion only to be told that non christians cannot possibly understand anything from the bible because we lack the holy spirit to guide us.

 

I stand by my comment because it is based on multiple threads and multiple different posters chiming in to say over and over again that non Christians cannot understand the bible.

 

Is Mergath correct or is she unable to known anything that Jesus valued because she is a non Christian who does not understand?

 

Or is it more likely that non christians have an understanding of the bible and when they direct quote from the bible to support their POV and this happens to show that a christian is posting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to jesus own words that maybe, just maybe, the non christians actually are aware of what the bible and jesus says? Sincere question and one I would like addressed because it cannot be both ways all the time.

 

I for one am tired of the "no matter what a non christians says it is wrong" attitude and my post was a tongue in cheek comment that is very much relevant to the overall Us Vs Non Christians Who ack the Holy Spirit and are always wrong and The Christians can be as judgy as we want because they are non Christians and do not matter attitude of many posters. It does get tiresome.

 

ETA: This came out snarkier than I intended. Not sure how to fix that and still make my point. Please know I am not intending this as a personal attack. But am serious in wanting to know.

Not relevant to this thread. Lumps Christians into a homogeneous pile. I have not said the things you state, and I am a Christian. You have a beef, probably a legitimate one, but you have still used a sweeping generalization. If you think that Scarlett does this, address her. If you want to start a dialog about this, start a new thread.

I am typing on a phone in a car so this is the best I can do, and I will be out of pocket for several hours. I can respond further or you can message me, but I am not able to respond further now.

[Χά�ων]

Not relevant to this thread. Lumps Christians into a homogeneous pile. I have not said the things you state, and I am a Christian. You have a beef, probably a legitimate one, but you have still used a sweeping generalization. If you think that Scarlett does this, address her. If you want to start a dialog about this, start a new thread.

I am typing on a phone in a car so this is the best I can do, and I will be out of pocket for several hours. I can respond further or you can message me, but I am not able to respond further now.

 

I was replying to Mergarth's comment "Though silly non-Christian that I am, I suppose I'm not allowed to say that" that she made about values Jesus had that Angelina has.

 

I completely understand typing on a phone. I am without a computer and not enjoying attempting to type on a phone. I really miss the multi quote feature. For those who manage everything on a phone, I am impressed.

 

[LibraryLover]

I guess my issue here is not that people don't like this couple - you don't have to . I'm having trouble with the idea that folks believe the parents are forcing something on a child for publicity's sake. That's my objection. That seems unfair, especially as the child clearly seems comfortable. If Katie Holmes tried to put her fashionista in a suit, I think that child would try to make her mother's life a living hell, don't you think? Screaming fits in Central Park, all captured by blood- thirsty paparazzi. ;)

[Χά�ων]

This

I guess my issue here is not that people don't like these parents, - you don't have to . I'm having trouble with the idea that some believe hese parents are forcing something on a child for publicity's sake. That's my objection. That seems unfair, especially as the child clearly seems comfortable. If Katie Holmes tried to put her little princess in a suit, I think that child would try to make her mother's life a living hell, don't you think? Screaming fits in Central Park, all captured by blood thirsty paparazzi. ;)

 

[Mergath]

.??? Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said I don't value generosity etc.

 

Not sure why you feel so entitled to attack me because I have a negative opinion of Brangelina. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

 

Many of us do support them because we value the things they've put into action.  You said yourself you don't share values with the people on this board even as we're stating how much we value those things, and you seemingly place no value on Jolie and Pitt's humanitarian activities, so it's fairly obvious.

[Tsuga]

I am puzzled by the passion with which you defend them. You sound angry.

 

I never said they were child abusers. I said they are weird and out there and like the limelight. And that I wouldn't hold them up as role models for anything. I have that impression of them from years of them being in the spotlight and various things I have read about them. That is my impression and my opinion. You can have yours as well of course.

 

I'm passionate about justice and treating people kindly. Yes. Very passionate. If you haven't noticed, people treating other people poorly--by taking rumors (reading "various" things) and using them as rumors to justify their own self-righteousness infuriates me.

 

It's a common tactic on the Internet to say, "you sound angry" as if that invalidates someone's view.

 

Let me say, for the record, I AM FURIOUS THAT TABLOIDS AND OTHER SO-CALLED "NEWS" SOURCES REGULARLY SLANDER AND LIBEL FAMILIES IN THE ARTS AND IN THE PUBLIC EYE. I think it's pathetic that people take such media seriously. I think it's wrong. I want it to change. I think society has reached disgusting levels of acceptance of gossip and rumor-mongering and outright libel without consequences and I do think it affects all of us. The fact that I have emotions attached to my thoughts does not invalidate them. (And no I do not watch reality TV--I also think 95% of that is pretty appalling.)

 

I also think that your "various things I have read about them" is not evidence for your opinion. Instead your opinion is based on something else. Usually such opinions are based on the desire to feel superior to people who otherwise have more social approval and power than the holder of said opinion. "She might be pretty but I hear she's really crazy!"

 

I have no opinion on the Jolie-Pitt family because I don't know them, so I assume the best.

 

Your attempts to malign others are no less innocuous just because you don't know them. It's base gossip and it's rude.

 

Yes it upsets me. Why shouldn't people being treated like junk upset me?! And by believing people who sell rumors and sensation, yes, you are treating the Pitt-Jolies like junk. I make a point, and I am not the only one, to avoid reading gossip stories like that unless it affects me personally (i.e. the Chelsea Manning case is an interesting case regarding the rights of conscientious objectors and what we do to those who go AWOL, what does 'treachery' mean in a surveillance state, etc. etc. etc. so forming an opinion on her mental state would be somewhat relevant to my thoughts about the case).

 

Your opinion is a judgment about people you don't know, and it's wrong. It's wrong because it's baseless and it's wrong because it is morally wrong to judge others without walking in their shoes.

 

Your use of the ridiculous tabloid name "Brangelina" is rude and suggests that your "sources" that you base your opinion on are weak.

 

There are many opinions on this thread which I can respect, with which I do not agree. (Not many, but some.) But of all the opinions that make me upset, it is yours because it is just so low. So low and so mean, in the old-fashioned sense of that word, like without morality, totally self-interested in making yourself feel like you are better than these celebrities because they are "weird".

 

I can't comment on whether I am more or less weird than the Jolie-Pitt family, but I can say for sure that nothing I have ever read in any reputable source suggests that I am less weird.

 

I mean, the one thing I think is odd about them, which is that they've adopted many children, is an attribute shared by many on this board, and I am just going to assume they are doing it out of kindheartedness. Assuming otherwise would be nothing short of immoral.

 

Nobody knows what fame is like before they achieve it. I don't blame any of these people for trying to make their way and make their name in show business. I don't think that equals signing up to a life in which slander and libel laws do not apply.

[Catwoman]

Actually, it is relevant to what Mergath said. So often on this very forum, myself and others who are open about being non christians say something to add to a topic that is from the bible only to be blasted and told that as non christian we could not possibly understand what, even if it is a direct quote from the bible. Honestly, it gets tiresome to attempt to add to a discussion only to be told that non christians cannot possibly understand anything from the bible because we lack the holy spirit to guide us.

 

I stand by my comment because it is based on multiple threads and multiple different posters chiming in to say over and over again that non Christians cannot understand the bible.

 

Is Mergath correct or is she unable to known anything that Jesus valued because she is a non Christian who does not understand?

 

Or is it more likely that non christians have an understanding of the bible and when they direct quote from the bible to support their POV and this happens to show that a christian is posting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to jesus own words that maybe, just maybe, the non christians actually are aware of what the bible and jesus says? Sincere question and one I would like addressed because it cannot be both ways all the time.

 

I for one am tired of the "no matter what a non christians says it is wrong" attitude and my post was a tongue in cheek comment that is very much relevant to the overall Us Vs Non Christians Who ack the Holy Spirit and are always wrong and The Christians can be as judgy as we want because they are non Christians and do not matter attitude of many posters. It does get tiresome.

 

ETA: This came out snarkier than I intended. Not sure how to fix that and still make my point. Please know I am not intending this as a personal attack. But am serious in wanting to know.

 

I have no idea what this post has to do with this thread. :confused:

 

Mergath made a little comment (which didn't seem like a big deal to me, because I think it's pretty widely accepted that most people -- religious or otherwise -- know that Jesus was supposed to have been a good guy,) and now it's turning into "OMG look at how atheists are always being attacked on this forum."

 

Frankly, I'm not atheist enough for the atheists nor am I Christian enough for most Christians, but I can honestly tell you that I see just as much anti-religion talk on this forum as I do anti-atheist sentiment.  It's getting tiresome on both sides and it's starting to seem like people are baiting each other just so they can get up on their soapboxes and start controversy, no matter what the original topic of a thread may have been.

[SKL]

FWIW I don't know of any reason to think Jolie-Pitt are any better or worse parents than average.

 

The thing about Shiloh wanting to cross-dress is years old.  For years I have noticed her dressing in clothes (and hairstyles) that would work for either a boy or a girl - a very sensible approach IMO.  Girls are so lucky because they can usually dress in "boys' clothes" without raising an eyebrow.

 

Now Shiloh is 8, the same age as my eldest.  My 8yo is not a clueless little preschooler.  Her style is very important to her, and so is her gender identity.  If she says she is a boy or needs to dress like a boy - or wants to NOT dress like a boy - that is serious business.  She would not wear a boy's suit out of the house except as a silly joke.  Maybe not even then.  I don't believe 8yo Shiloh would wear all-out boy clothes all the time just to go along with some foolishness her parents came up with.

 

Besides, if they were nutso and pushing their kids that way, why aren't all six of them transvestites?

 

Again, I see no evidence that Shiloh's parents are less likely than other parents to nurture their own child as she needs to be nurtured.

 

I'm not a fan or anything, I just think people are making all sorts of unfounded assumptions about this family.

[Scarlett]

Many of us do support them because we value the things they've put into action. You said yourself you don't share values with the people on this board even as we're stating how much we value those things, and you seemingly place no value on Jolie and Pitt's humanitarian activities, so it's fairly obvious.

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I said

 

Those are great things of course, but I wasn't thinking of what her money can buy. The things I value are not valued at all by many on these boards so we will just have to leave it at that. I don't have a good opinion of either of them and I am not a bit surprised one of their kids has such a situation going on. But I will admit I give very little real thought to either of them so I may have them all wrong. As I have said repeatedly in this thread I have an impression of them based upon their many years in the public eye.

[SKL]

I think the instinct to be a good parent is independent of most everything else, personally.  There are people I disagree with nearly 100% on issues affecting the public, while not having one negative word to say about their parenting.

[Tanaqui]

I want to address two comments both made by TranquilMind, but a few pages ago. Sorry for being behind the curve :)

 

I would be sad if they were alone and never found love.

 

There are many people in this world who are asexual or aromantic. That means they are perfectly normal, they just aren't much interested in sex or romance or both. (You can appreciate romance without appreciating sex, and vice versa, but understandably that makes spousal relations and similar a little complicated.)

 

Most of those people are perfectly happy the way they are. You don't need to be "sad" for them, because they aren't "alone" or lacking love - they just don't have the sort of partnership you envision in your life. But they usually have the same number of close platonic friendships as other people, and the same familial relationships. Human life cannot be boiled down just to sex and romance.

 

(Caveat: RARE cases of fused twin eggs or possessing organs of both genders, etc do occur.  These are extraordinarily rare and not what I am talking about here.)

 

Actually, varying forms of intersex are some of the more common birth defects. And while we don't know the actual rate of mosaicism or chimeraism (two conditions that can lead a person to have two different genetic codes in their bodies, including the possibility of having some genes XX and some XY), because most people are never tested for that, we are finding out that this turns out to be much more common than most people have traditionally thought.

 

There is just so much we don't know yet. We're still learning so much in this area.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

.??? Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said I don't value generosity etc.

 

Not sure why you feel so entitled to attack me because I have a negative opinion of Brangelina. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

 

Well, some of us have listed a fair number of what seem to us to be clearly positive, generous things that Angelina Jolie has done, and you dismissed them by saying you don't share her values or the values of those of us who admire those things. That seems like a pretty clear statement to me.

 

For the record, I don't have much of an opinion about either Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt, except that they seem like nice enough folks who are trying to do good in their world. I'm not attacking you in any way. I'm just trying to understand your position, which is why I've continued to engage with you and invited you to share some examples of people whom you do consider role models.

[Haiku]

When I was in my early 20s I met Brad Pitt at a friend's barbeque. He was poorly groomed and very unfriendly. When we were adopting our dd who has HIV, I saw a tv program about his work in Africa and how he was personally, with his own money, supporting a family headed by an HIV+ teen whose name was the same as that of the dd we were adopting.

 

Why does this matter? It doesn't except to say that I have actually met the man and had a negative impression of him, but in reality I know NOTHING about him, so it would be silly to suggest that somehow the good things he's done couldn't possibly be reconciled with my values. Before casting stones, count your blessings that the paparazzi isn't turning your life into speculative fodder for idle gossip.

 

Denigrating the good Angelina Jolie has done as just something her money could buy honestly smells of sour grapes to me. How is charitable spending not a reflection of your values?

[Scarlett]

When I was in my early 20s I met Brad Pitt at a friend's barbeque. He was poorly groomed and very unfriendly. When we were adopting our dd who has HIV, I saw a tv program about his work in Africa and how he was personally, with his own money, supporting a family headed by an HIV+ teen whose name was the same as that of the dd we were adopting.

 

Why does this matter? It doesn't except to say that I have actually met the man and had a negative impression of him, but in reality I know NOTHING about him, so it would be silly to suggest that somehow the good things he's done couldn't possibly be reconciled with my values. Before casting stones, count your blessings that the paparazzi isn't turning your life into speculative fodder for idle gossip.

 

Denigrating the good Angelina Jolie has done as just something her money could buy honestly smells of sour grapes to me. How is charitable spending not a reflection of your values?

Sigh. I never said that. I said that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

Sour grapes? No. I have no desire to live their lives. I think she is stunningly beautiful and he is too and yet I still don't want to be either of them.

 

I had no idea my opinion of two celebrities could upset people....that was not my intention. Of course charitable spending is wonderful...I am sure they help a lot of people. I doubt they are horrible parents. Can I not still have a Poor impression of them in general? I mean good grief, people are so touchy.

[poppy]

Sigh. I never said that. I said that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

Sour grapes? No. I have no desire to live their lives. I think she is stunningly beautiful and he is too and yet I still don't want to be either of them.

 

I had no idea my opinion of two celebrities could upset people....that was not my intention. Of course charitable spending is wonderful...I am sure they help a lot of people. I doubt they are horrible parents. Can I not still have a Poor impression of them in general? I mean good grief, people are so touchy.

 

Questioning other people's parenting always raises hackles.

[Haiku]

Sigh. I never said that. I said that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

I suspect (and I could be wrong) that you disaprove of them being together for so long without marrying and/or that the status of their relationship while he was still married to Jennifer Aniston bothers you. Perhaps the bisexual issue bothers you. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

 

But it will strike people as odd that you claim not to share their value when they have obviously done much humanitarian good for the world. Perhaps if you were more specific in where you perceive that their values part ways with yours, people wouldn't find it so strange that you keep saying you don't share their values.

 

FWIW, I have no desire to be them, either. I'm quite happy being me and have no desire to be famous.

[Scarlett]

I suspect (and I could be wrong) that you disaprove of them being together for so long without marrying and/or that the status of their relationship while he was still married to Jennifer Aniston bothers you. Perhaps the bisexual issue bothers you. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

 

But it will strike people as odd that you claim not to share their value when they have obviously done much humanitarian good for the world. Perhaps if you were more specific in where you perceive that their values part ways with yours, people wouldn't find it so strange that you keep saying you don't share their values.

 

FWIW, I have no desire to be them, either. I'm quite happy being me and have no desire to be famous.

I am not sure why it matters.....being specific just causes more uproar.

[Haiku]

I am not sure why it matters.....being specific just causes more uproar.

It honestly doesn't matter, but as you can see, when you come to a discussion board and make bold yet vague claims about people, others will want to discuss it. That's all.

[Scarlett]

It honestly doesn't matter, but as you can see, when you come to a discussion board and make bold yet vague claims about people, others will want to discuss it. That's all.

Ha. Clearly. I must remember that.

[Muttichen]

 

Actually, varying forms of intersex are some of the more common birth defects. And while we don't know the actual rate of mosaicism or chimeraism (two conditions that can lead a person to have two different genetic codes in their bodies, including the possibility of having some genes XX and some XY), because most people are never tested for that, we are finding out that this turns out to be much more common than most people have traditionally thought.

 

 

Prenatal genetic testing is common enough that if this occurred as often as some claim, it would show up there.

 

What is key here is that these are birth defects.  If a child is born with one, you treat them with love and compassion and do whatever you can to help them have a satisfying, healthy life.  If someone has a psychological disorder that makes him very unhappy with his gender, you do the same.  That doesn't mean these conditions are normal and that parents should be raising their kids looking for signs of them.  It is also dangerous, I think, to lead kids to believe that their gender is fluid.  

[Tanaqui]

Prenatal genetic testing is common enough that if this occurred as often as some claim, it would show up there.

 

Not unless people check for it. Again, we are only now finding out how common this is.

 

That doesn't mean these conditions are normal and that parents should be raising their kids looking for signs of them.

 

Normal isn't a value judgment, so let's not use it that way.

 

It is also dangerous, I think, to lead kids to believe that their gender is fluid. 

 

How so? What, do you think, are the risks? What evidence do you have to support this point of view?

 

[texasmama]

Is Mergath correct or is she unable to known anything that Jesus valued because she is a non Christian who does not understand?

 

I think that Mergath is able to read the Bible and to extrapolate from that what Jesus valued.  We all read through our own filters so it is possible to read and reach different conclusions - but probably not dramatically different conclusions about something fairly straightforward such as how the actions of Jesus speak to what He valued. 

 

Or is it more likely that non christians have an understanding of the bible and when they direct quote from the bible to support their POV and this happens to show that a christian is posting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to jesus own words that maybe, just maybe, the non christians actually are aware of what the bible and jesus says? Sincere question and one I would like addressed because it cannot be both ways all the time.

 

I know many non-Christians who have done extensive study of the Bible.  I think it is difficult to support and defend positions debate-style by quoting the Bible due to the issues with translations and the fact that one must take into consideration context and the culture of the times.  This holds for Christians and non-Christians alike.

 

I for one am tired of the "no matter what a non christians says it is wrong" attitude and my post was a tongue in cheek comment that is very much relevant to the overall Us Vs Non Christians Who ack the Holy Spirit and are always wrong and The Christians can be as judgy as we want because they are non Christians and do not matter attitude of many posters. It does get tiresome.

 

I am tired of being lumped in with a group (Christians) which is not homogeneous.  I don't make statements such as "all atheists" because there is no group of "all atheists" which believe or don't believe one particular thing.  (Choosing atheists randomly - insert any other group with the same effect.)  There are posters who have an anti-Christian bias, and it shows.  There are posters who have a Christian elitism, and it shows.  I don't care for either.  The former hurts, angers and offends me.  The latter embarrasses me.

 

ETA: This came out snarkier than I intended. Not sure how to fix that and still make my point. Please know I am not intending this as a personal attack. But am serious in wanting to know.

 

I don't usually engage in these discussions because they are not my strong suit, but you asked a question, and I have tried to answer it.  Peace.  (Also, excuse the off topic nature of this post to the original post.)

 

[Muttichen]

Not unless people check for it. Again, we are only now finding out how common this is.

 

 

 

 

I've never heard of someone having amniocentesis and not learning the sex of the baby.  If there was anything other than xx or xy there, it would be discovered.

[Tanaqui]

I've never heard of someone having amniocentesis and not learning the sex of the baby.  If there was anything other than xx or xy there, it would be discovered.

 

Not necessarily. For one thing, sometimes the genes are localized, as in one of the examples I linked to above - a woman with one set of genes throughout her body, but a different set in her ovaries and uterus.

 

Furthermore, consider that only a minority of women choose to have anmiocentesis - 5 to 10% - because it is an inherently risky procedure. When people have it, it is because their child is considered at risk. Therefore, unusual results may be considered to be, well, expected. We have no idea what the rate is for mosaicism or chimeraism within the population that is NOT considered at risk.

 

[Joanne]

It is also dangerous, I think, to lead kids to believe that their gender is fluid.

Unless, of course, gender IS fluid. Then society and culture are the problem, not the solution.

[Ravin]

Butch lesbians and transgender people are not the same thing, at all. Transgender folks tend to embrace steroetype (suit and short haircut), not defy them.

This is a major overgeneralization. I know plenty of transgender people who embrace the same range of dress and activities as Cisgender people. There are effeminate transmen and tomboyish transwomen. Often they identify as transsexual (which may be seen as a sub-category of transgender), or they are gender fluid or nonbinary, or simply don't see themselves as different from Cisgender men or women.

[Mergath]

Prenatal genetic testing is common enough that if this occurred as often as some claim, it would show up there.

 

What is key here is that these are birth defects.  If a child is born with one, you treat them with love and compassion and do whatever you can to help them have a satisfying, healthy life.  If someone has a psychological disorder that makes him very unhappy with his gender, you do the same.  That doesn't mean these conditions are normal and that parents should be raising their kids looking for signs of them.  It is also dangerous, I think, to lead kids to believe that their gender is fluid.  

 

Playing in traffic is dangerous.  Ebola is dangerous.  Swimming with sharks is dangerous.

 

Kids having fluid gender identities?  Not dangerous.

[Tsuga]

Unless, of course, gender IS fluid. Then society and culture are the problem, not the solution.

 

This is why we need multiple likes. I should be able to give your post 1,000 likes.

[Tsuga]

Prenatal genetic testing is common enough that if this occurred as often as some claim, it would show up there.

 

What is key here is that these are birth defects.  If a child is born with one, you treat them with love and compassion and do whatever you can to help them have a satisfying, healthy life.  If someone has a psychological disorder that makes him very unhappy with his gender, you do the same.  That doesn't mean these conditions are normal and that parents should be raising their kids looking for signs of them.  It is also dangerous, I think, to lead kids to believe that their gender is fluid.  

 

1. They don't test for mosaicism. That would be extremely hard.

 

2. These are said to be "defects" by some but many of us do not view all non-binary-sex options as defects. The definition of "defective" is subjective. I do think that XXY males are very susceptible to many health issues but whether or not they are disabled simply because they are XXY is up for grabs. I personally do not think so.

 

And I don't care what the docs say. 30 years ago homosexuality was a mental illness according to them.

 

[Haiku]

Unless, of course, gender IS fluid. Then society and culture are the problem, not the solution.

 

And again because it is so perfect.

[elegantlion]

Playing in traffic is dangerous.  Ebola is dangerous.  Swimming with sharks is dangerous.

 

Kids having fluid gender identities?  Not dangerous.

 

This would make an excellent Venn Diagram thingy. 

[poppy]

This is a major overgeneralization. I know plenty of transgender people who embrace the same range of dress and activities as Cisgender people. There are effeminate transmen and tomboyish transwomen. Often they identify as transsexual (which may be seen as a sub-category of transgender), or they are gender fluid or nonbinary, or simply don't see themselves as different from Cisgender men or women.

 

It is an overgeneralization, yes. I was speaking in very broad terms. Sometimes that's useful in these conversations.

[LucyStoner]

This is a major overgeneralization. I know plenty of transgender people who embrace the same range of dress and activities as Cisgender people. There are effeminate transmen and tomboyish transwomen. Often they identify as transsexual (which may be seen as a sub-category of transgender), or they are gender fluid or nonbinary, or simply don't see themselves as different from Cisgender men or women.

A generalization? Yes. A major or inaccurate one? No. Not really, at least not IME knowing a lot of transmen and women. Gender fluid people don't tend to transition. Some who I know have reversed their transition. It's costly, it has side effects and risks and it's incredibly challenging. People who are happy totally bending gender don't usually need to change their body to do so.

 

My brother is way more gendered with his kids than either my (basically cis gendered) husband or me. I've observed the same pattern in a number of other trans families.

[Haiku]

This is a tragic example of that can happen to trans kids when their parents refuse to accept that their child is transgender or cloak their disapproval in religion. This happened two days ago about 30 miles from where I live.

[Tsuga]

:(

 

It gets better but why can't it get better right now?

[Mergath]

This is a tragic example of that can happen to trans kids when their parents refuse to accept that their child is transgender or cloak their disapproval in religion. This happened two days ago about 30 miles from where I live.

 

:crying:

 

I hope everyone who posted in this thread against the rights of transgender kids reads this.  It's absolutely heartbreaking.  No child should have to live with that kind of shame and sadness because the parents refuse to accept him or her.

[Haiku]

Yes. To know that your parents completely devalue who you are is something few kids could bear. I imagine that these parents are now truly regretful of how they handled the situation, but then again, when my friend came out at age 17, his mother told me she would rather have a dead son than a gay one. So who knows?

[Joanne]

This is a tragic example of that can happen to trans kids when their parents refuse to accept that their child is transgender or cloak their disapproval in religion. This happened two days ago about 30 miles from where I live.

I don't know what I feel about after death. But I hope Miss Leelah rests in the peace and companionship that was elusive to her on this earth.

[Scarlett]

I think it is tragic. We do not however know his parents version of how this all went down.

[TranquilMind]

I want to address two comments both made by TranquilMind, but a few pages ago. Sorry for being behind the curve :)

 

 

There are many people in this world who are asexual or aromantic. That means they are perfectly normal, they just aren't much interested in sex or romance or both. (You can appreciate romance without appreciating sex, and vice versa, but understandably that makes spousal relations and similar a little complicated.)

 

Most of those people are perfectly happy the way they are. You don't need to be "sad" for them, because they aren't "alone" or lacking love - they just don't have the sort of partnership you envision in your life. But they usually have the same number of close platonic friendships as other people, and the same familial relationships. Human life cannot be boiled down just to sex and romance.

 

 

 

If they have that support system and don't care about a romantic partnership, that's fine, of course.  I really have no family left, so I am so glad to have had my husband by my side through these recent, challenging years with several surgeries.  If I didn't have him, it would have been very hard. 

[Tanaqui]

I think it is tragic. We do not however know his parents version of how this all went down.

 

Her parents would have to have an amazing story. I mean, basically, this would have to be completely factually untrue to not call what they did profoundly bad parenting.

 

[Joanne]

I think it is tragic. We do not however know his parents version of how this all went down.

Couldn't find it in you to use the HONORING pronoun or to allow her own words of taking her own life stand?

 

Really?

 

That is exactly how conservative religion kills.

[Tsuga]

I think it is tragic. We do not however know his parents version of how this all went down.

 

Who cares? A child is dead. I would care if they were under investigation for child abuse--as it stands I really don't care what excuses they have.

[Scarlett]

Her parents would have to have an amazing story. I mean, basically, this would have to be completely factually untrue to not call what they did profoundly bad parenting.

 

I think it would have to be a big difference in perception. When he said his parents were pissed off and angry that he was ruining their image....I can very well imagine they weren't thinking that at all, but we just very very upset by his revelation.

 

I understand that many see any thing less than 100% acceptance of him changing to a girl would be bad parenting, I don't think I have to accept everything thing my son wants to continue to love him and be a good parent. Especially if what he desires is against deeply held religious convictions.

[Tsuga]

 

.I can very well imagine they weren't thinking that at all, but we just very very upset by his revelation.

 

Would it have killed them to say "We love you no matter what and will always accept you for who you are?"

 

Because not saying it killed her.

 

 

I don't think I have to accept everything thing my son wants to continue to love him and be a good parent

 

This isn't something she wanted.

 

It was who she was.

 

You can reject your child's opinions. They rejected her self.

[Scarlett]

Couldn't find it in you to use the HONORING pronoun or to allow her own words of taking her own life stand?

 

Really?

 

That is exactly how conservative religion kills.

And the kind of aggression against people with different opinions kills conversation.

[Tanaqui]

And the kind of aggression against people with different opinions kills conversation.

 

You don't have the right to your own opinion on how to refer to people. The only polite way to refer to people is the way they have requested. That's why we call you Scarlett instead of Colonel Mustard or insisting you use your IRL name. Anything else is rude and aggressive.