Article critical of homeschooling by Christian fundamentalists

[Farrar]

See, this is where I think I just part company with a lot of people here. I think it's not that you all know different homeschoolers (well, maybe a few of you as I don't know any drug dealing, crime family homeschoolers...) but I think we have different lenses. I know a lot of families who have made the choice to let academics be light in order to focus on character building, or family togetherness, or because they ascribe to a better late than early philosophy, or because they see happiness and desire to learn as more essential and are waiting for their kids to want to learn more. They don't do nothing, but they don't push. So the kids are all a little behind. And eventually, the parents either push forward a little more or the kids get ready and have a burst of more learning or they send the kids to school. And that's simply not educational neglect to me. It's not educational neglect to say, gee, that wasn't working great, I'm going to send my child to school. That's responsible parenting.Those kids are all going to be fine. Maybe they got to 12 yo not having written an essay or done long division, but they have some basic skills and a huge number of the skills that we spend years and years on can be taught faster once kids have a higher level of maturity. And I don't really care what anyone says... I don't see that as educational neglect. Sometimes it works out great. Sometimes less so, but in the end, I don't see this any differently than the kids who fall through the cracks at school. Efforts were made. Values were considered.

 

I think many people on this board think every unschooler is practicing educational neglect. In the other thread some people said that not doing a college prep education was educational neglect. Really? A lot of students in schools don't even do college prep.

[maize]

I've run out if likes again but want to agree with everything Farrar said.

[Catwoman]

See, this is where I think I just part company with a lot of people here. I think it's not that you all know different homeschoolers (well, maybe a few of you as I don't know any drug dealing, crime family homeschoolers...).

Clearly, you need to get out more. ;)

 

BTW, I agree with the rest of your post, too -- my experiences have been very similar to yours. I have met many homeschooling families over the years, and haven't met a single one who seemed to be what I would consider to be "educationally neglectful."

 

The only "neglectful" parents I have ever met have been thrilled when they could send their kids off to school every year, and who counted the vacation days until they could send them back again.

[VeritasMama]

To be fair, this is part of the texting generation, rather than an inadequate education IMHO. Should it have been addressed? Absolutely. But it seems to be a common issue as it's been written about for years.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/4600849-418/teachers-students-see-texting-lingo-popping-up-in-school-writing.html

 

"Sledz said the most common misuses by students are using a “i†as a stand-alone word, using only the letter “u†instead of the word “you,†using the letter “r†in place of the word “are†and not using periods where needed.

“It’s independent of intelligence,†Sledz said. “The problem is the inability to recognize it on your own. If I’m texting, I’ll shorten some words, but I know that isn’t appropriate for other writing. A lot of students don’t make that distinction.â€"

 

"

An adequate education should teach a student that there is a difference between the way you write in an academic setting vs. in a text message. It is something I was taught, the difference between formal and informal writing.

 

The fact that they aren't learning this in high school writing courses shows that many are not getting an adequate education in America.

 

I agree with several posters that homeschooling isn't the problem, abuse is the problem. We don't ask all parents to prove they aren't abusing their kids just because, tragically, so many parents are abusers.

 

I'm not against some form of oversight, but it will never stop all abuse.

[Guest]

Actually, Sadie, I did not say that other subgroups under the homeschooling umbrella have a higher percentage of abuse, although I did respond to a quote that did use the word abuse. I made it clear I have been talking about neglect, particularly educational. I would appreciate if you'd stop claiming that I said there is more abuse in those subgroups.

 

And, frankly, I *can* use the professional card. I worked my a** off for it, earning a Master's degree in a related field and working 3 jobs related to education and families. Before that, I taught parenting for 15 years to 2 groups: Christians emerging from a punitive parenting paradigm and wanting to change that, and secular parents wanting to learn more about positive discipline. My full time job currently is in a small, secular school - we don't typically get the type of homeschoolers referenced in the OP. Having taught at a local Community College, I had a total of 6 classes of 26 students each, from mostly public schools with a sprinkle of private and one homeschooler. Not to mention the students I taught in my home when I was a single parent homeschooler. So, yea, I *do* think my exposure to a representative variety of homeschoolers (and public schoolers) is more than the average homeschooling parent.

 

And, no, I don't need to answer your question to address the topics presented by the OP. My point is found in my original post that the numbers represented by the type in the OP are very small, but that educational neglect is present in the homeschooling community and still goes largely unacknowledged. I have been on this board for 15 years, and I remember the first 10, several posters would mention it. They are mostly not here anymore, but they were regular, vetted, posters. They each had a range of experience with the homeschooling community at large and spoke of concerning, sometimes alarming, cases of educational fail and neglect in the homeschooling community. I argued with them (as did most people on the board.) I really, really, really wanted to believe that homeschooling did not have that high a percentage of reason for concern. When I began working professionally IN that community, what I observed followed exactly what those posters described and had written about.

 

And, for the record, the "Homeschool Watch List" is absurd and alarming. And I don't believe that oversight should come from the public system.

 

You realize that there are huge homeschool groups and co-ops out there that many on this board belong to, right?  That's quite a bit of exposure to homeschooled families.  Some of us have some children in ps and some homeschooled.  So, exposure to each.

 

You seem to claim that you are around more homeschooled families (along with your education and work-related experience), so your opinion is somehow more valid (?), but I disagree.  Many of us are also highly educated and have experience in a variety of settings.  I think all of our opinions are valid, and I don't think some opinions are more valid than others (who have not posted their resumes).

[Guest]

If you think a family going light on a subject for a year is educational neglect, then I think it *is* the norm. Most homeschoolers I know have periods of more academics and less. I just don't consider that educational neglect. It's usually part of a purposeful choice on some level.

 

Since I think it is educational neglect, I could argue against this (and I'm sure others would join me).  Some view unschooling as educational neglect.  Do you want that stopped?  I think anyone can argue anything, and we need to be careful about which bandwagon we jump on, or we could ALL end up with undesired results.  I'm not saying we shouldn't stop people from abusing their children (we 100% should).  I just think it's counterproductive to blame it on "certain types" of homeschooling versus calling it what it is... abuse.  

[Guest]

See, this is where I think I just part company with a lot of people here. I think it's not that you all know different homeschoolers (well, maybe a few of you as I don't know any drug dealing, crime family homeschoolers...) but I think we have different lenses. I know a lot of families who have made the choice to let academics be light in order to focus on character building, or family togetherness, or because they ascribe to a better late than early philosophy, or because they see happiness and desire to learn as more essential and are waiting for their kids to want to learn more. They don't do nothing, but they don't push. So the kids are all a little behind. And eventually, the parents either push forward a little more or the kids get ready and have a burst of more learning or they send the kids to school. And that's simply not educational neglect to me. It's not educational neglect to say, gee, that wasn't working great, I'm going to send my child to school. That's responsible parenting.Those kids are all going to be fine. Maybe they got to 12 yo not having written an essay or done long division, but they have some basic skills and a huge number of the skills that we spend years and years on can be taught faster once kids have a higher level of maturity. And I don't really care what anyone says... I don't see that as educational neglect. Sometimes it works out great. Sometimes less so, but in the end, I don't see this any differently than the kids who fall through the cracks at school. Efforts were made. Values were considered.

 

I think many people on this board think every unschooler is practicing educational neglect. In the other thread some people said that not doing a college prep education was educational neglect. Really? A lot of students in schools don't even do college prep.

 

We do have different opinions on what is educational neglect, but that is my point.  Whose regulations are going to be followed if the government steps in?

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

I've met a fairly wide variety of homeschool families, only two would I consider potentially neglectful.

[Farrar]

We do have different opinions on what is educational neglect, but that is my point.  Whose regulations are going to be followed if the government steps in?

 

Since it's the government, I think the bar should be lower. I know that doesn't jibe well with everyone, but that's how I see it. I also think the bar should be more about instruction than about achievement. The phrase in the Maryland homeschool law makes sense to me. Homeschoolers must show "continued instruction" as opposed to meeting any particular standard with their kids.

[Guest]

Since it's the government, I think the bar should be lower. I know that doesn't jibe well with everyone, but that's how I see it. I also think the bar should be more about instruction than about achievement. The phrase in the Maryland homeschool law makes sense to me. Homeschoolers must show "continued instruction" as opposed to meeting any particular standard with their kids.

 

I can agree with that.  Public schools, private schools, and homeschools all work on different scopes and sequences... which makes regulating tricky.

[HS Mom in NC]

I don't have a problem with discussing educational neglect and other abuses in the homeschooling community.I'd love to hear more at keynote addresses and workshops at homeschool conventions. I think we have to be careful before we decide someone's homeschool is unacceptable because that requires fairly intimate knowledge of someone we're not around much.  Let's remember that there are educational neglect laws on the books in even unregulated states, so know how to report someone if you have to.

 

Know Your Audience

I think these articles and many like them are not useful to the general public because the general public usually has very little ability to know what Joanne pointed out upthread: this is a small percentage of homeschoolers who are a very small percentage of school aged children.  The average person outside the Christian homeschooling community has no idea how very rare quiverfuls and patriarchal types are as a percentage of Christianity.  So, they have no internal meter by which to gauge this.  Saying, "Some homeschoolers do a decent job" and the like may be true as opposed to "no" or "few" but in no way gives useful information to the general public, few of whom are homeschooling but are reading about it at Salon.  Sorry, it just doesn't.  It's not enough to move it into fair territory.

 

Also, formal logic isn't taught in most homeschools and institutional schools, so asking yourself, "How accurate is the assessment of the homeschooling community in general by someone who was admittedly so isolated? Can someone so isolated really be a good source of information about what the entire homeschooling community should be subject to? " The reporter is a typical poor one-no effort was made to look into the amount of regulation in different places and then comparing the standardized test score of people in states who cannot self-select for testing against those in states that can self-select. Sloppy sloppy sloppy. They also miss the critical issue that I address below.

 

Added after posting: Lumping all fundamentalists into one category is an unfair,  sweeping generalization of fundamentalism.  That's 3 more paragraphs, but I'm done for now.  

 

Here's how I would comment if I wanted to give Salon all my information, Which I don't:

 

My First Hand Knowledge

 

 I've never met a quiverful homeschooler even though I run in a few conservative Christian and doctrinally fundamentalist circles.  I heard a patriarchal types speak once at a homeschool convention workshop but that's once in 12 years of AZ Homeschool Conventions. I've interacted with literally hundreds of homeschoolers over the years.  I have met 2 or 3 families whose kids were getting a poor quality K-12 homeschool education.  I've been homeschooling in the PHX area since 2000 and my older daughters, now 18 and 16 started college at ages 17 and 15. Two of my daughters' professors have said they are the best educated students they ever met.  I'm still homeschooling my 9 year old.  In the county I live in we've been running just under 10,000 registered (legal) homeschoolers for many years. I'm very familiar with and active in  the homeschooling community here. What you're describing is very rare.

 

A Reporter's Obligations

I think it's really important that readers understand what a small percentage of homeschoolers are the patriarchal types who care nothing about academics. If the reporter was unaware, they weren't ready to write the article yet.  If they were, they failed to specify this. Extreme patriarchal types are isolated and the rare exception.  Are there places where there are more of them?  Probably.  I suspect rural environments where they tend live a more a subsistence lifestyle, but when you look at the homeschooling community in general you're not going to find this kind of thing among openly homeschooling, legally registered homeschoolers in regulated and unregulated states unless you attend one of those churches.   

 

Practical Problems with Regulation

I understand the moral outrage when it comes to educational neglect.  I'm with you on it. I'm as Classical Homeschooler myself so my academic standards are high.  Here's the practical problem: If public schools, as regulated as they are, can still have students who are academically failing and students who are abused at home (I've been a certified foster parent so I'm very familiar with the rate of child abuse in AZ)  how will regulation stop it in the homeschooling community? It's all very nice to say "regulate" but how exactly, in practical details will that actually work?  Which government official(s) will do what from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Mondays through Fridays and how exactly will they do it?  No platitudes, no general statements, but actual specific day to day details.  Feel free to throw some out there.  I'd love to hear it.

 

The Real Problems

What exactly will you do about under the radar people who claim to be homeschooling but really aren't? How will you know? How will you find them?  The government can only regulate people who have notified them that they're homeschooling-most states already do that.   What if people simply choose not to notify them and choose not to enroll their child(ren) in any school? The only people who comply with laws are people who respect those laws.  The laws already require every one in each state to see to it their child is educated at home or somewhere else.  They people this article is talking about don't respect the laws.  They don't comply. Should we require every child born in America be under the supervision of the government to avoid abuse and make sure the child is registered at a school or as a homeschooler? Would that be done by the federal government or by each individual state?  What if people move from state to state?

 

If you do create a system where homeschoolers have to prove academic progress by some government standard, will you hold public and private schools to that standard too?  Will you require a failing homeschooled student to attend a public or private school?  Will you require failing public school students to be homeschooled or attend private schools?  What about private school students?  If you prosecute homeschoolers for failing to maintain certain academic benchmarks, will you do the same for teachers and administrators in institutional schools?  If you do, why?  If you don't, why not? Who will set the academic standards? 

 

Do you see the problem here?

 

There may very well be moral grounds on which to propose this general idea of regulation, but the details point to a very important truth about life, there may be no actual, practical way to pull it off that solves the problem.

[Seasider]

Clearly, you need to get out more. ;)

 

BTW, I agree with the rest of your post, too -- my experiences have been very similar to yours. I have met many homeschooling families over the years, and haven't met a single one who seemed to be what I would consider to be "educationally neglectful."

 

The only "neglectful" parents I have ever met have been thrilled when they could send their kids off to school every year, and who counted the vacation days until they could send them back again.

 

 

See, this is where I think I just part company with a lot of people here. I think it's not that you all know different homeschoolers (well, maybe a few of you as I don't know any drug dealing, crime family homeschoolers...) but I think we have different lenses. I know a lot of families who have made the choice to let academics be light in order to focus on character building, or family togetherness, or because they ascribe to a better late than early philosophy, or because they see happiness and desire to learn as more essential and are waiting for their kids to want to learn more. They don't do nothing, but they don't push. So the kids are all a little behind. And eventually, the parents either push forward a little more or the kids get ready and have a burst of more learning or they send the kids to school. And that's simply not educational neglect to me. It's not educational neglect to say, gee, that wasn't working great, I'm going to send my child to school. That's responsible parenting.Those kids are all going to be fine. Maybe they got to 12 yo not having written an essay or done long division, but they have some basic skills and a huge number of the skills that we spend years and years on can be taught faster once kids have a higher level of maturity. And I don't really care what anyone says... I don't see that as educational neglect. Sometimes it works out great. Sometimes less so, but in the end, I don't see this any differently than the kids who fall through the cracks at school. Efforts were made. Values were considered.

 

I think many people on this board think every unschooler is practicing educational neglect. In the other thread some people said that not doing a college prep education was educational neglect. Really? A lot of students in schools don't even do college prep.

 

I get what you are saying, farrar, and in many cases perhaps there's no educational neglect where some say there is.

 

And perhaps many of you, like catwoman, have never witnessed anything you'd call educational neglect.

 

But I have. And it certainly wasn't merely an education less than college preparatory. It was outright NOT schooling. In no other way were the children abused. They were fed, clothed, not handled harshly either physically or verbally, but were not taught anything. No follow up on their interests and/or provision of a resource-rich environment to facilitate the unschooling model. No participation in outside classes or activities aside from church. The moms in these families met regularly in a "support" group and discussed...knitting. Rustic music. And proudly boasted of their "unschooling" philosophy. (Yes, I was present at a couple of meetings and was shocked by what I heard and observed. There were kids involved ranging from preschool to highschool ages.) These were not patriarchal or fundamental Christians, they were more socially liberal. However, the educational neglect took place under the guise of the exercise of religious freedom, in a state which required one to qualify whether one's home school was for religious exemption or a private school option. So while I do agree that educational neglect occurs in public schools as well as in home schools, I personally believe there's something particularly insidious about educational neglect taking place under the shroud of religious exercise.

[Seasider]

I'm curious, for those who have witnessed education neglect first hand, how you determined the home environment ? Were these friends or people whose homes you were in and could observe things like lack of books, computers etc ? What was it about the child/ren that alerted you to the neglect ?

 

For me, it was being in the homes, observing interactions between the adults and children (their own and with others in the same group I mentioned above), discussions with them about what curricula or methods they used - or rather, didn't - and their boldly sharing their opinions and practices. Observing the kids interacting with other kids out in the larger community. Sharing my concerns with others who had more regular contact with these families and having my observations validated. Watching the kids attempt to function as perfectly decent yet illiterate students when mixed with a same-aged cohort for church/community activities. 

[Seasider]

Thanks! Were the kids all different ages, or mainly younger or older ?

 

There were several families involved, so some kids had age-mates in one of the other families. The kids, perhaps 15 in total, spanned the range from preschool to high school (maybe 10th grade age, but they were also big on not having any grade designations for their children so it's hard to know for sure).

[at the beach]

Just thought I'd add this: Abuse, neglect (including educational neglect), and dependency statutes apply to parents or legal custodians, not schools, and educational neglect cases typically involve truancy. As for schools, they are required to provide a free appropriate education to students with disabilities.  

[at the beach]

 

 

Not sure why when I quoted the box was blank, Allison. I wanted to reply specifically to some things. But anyway, don't want to derail the thread, either. My only point was that the Amish don't have the right to do what they are doing pursuant to this Supreme Court case because of the fact that they make their educational info available to the state or any other such thing. They are completely excused from compulsory attendance laws pursuant to Wisconsin vs Yoder for secondary schooling because of First Amendment freedoms. Wisconsin vs Yoder had nothing to do with Amish education through the 8th grade.    

[Murphy101]

I'm curious, for those who have witnessed education neglect first hand, how you determined the home environment ? Were these friends or people whose homes you were in and could observe things like lack of books, computers etc ? What was it about the child/ren that alerted you to the neglect ?

For me, I had visited the homes and spent time with the parents and their kids. The kids ages varied from very small to teens. Most were in public school, 2 were home schooled.

 

Several of the public school kids dropped out as soon as they were old enough and tho the parents said they didn't want them to, they did absolutely nothing about it.

[FaithManor]

I'm curious, for those who have witnessed education neglect first hand, how you determined the home environment ? Were these friends or people whose homes you were in and could observe things like lack of books, computers etc ? What was it about the child/ren that alerted you to the neglect ?

In my case, it has been 4-H families who have openly shared their educational philosophies and choices coupled with the interactions with their teens who drop out when the reading level or science project level exceeds 5th grade because it's too hard. We would be willing to help them, hand hold them through it for the sake of their educations and exposure, but not only are their parents uninterested in anything "hard", the students themselves are embarrassed when they discover that the PS kids, the private schooled kids, and the other homeschoolers from families that pursue academics on a regular basis past elementary curricula can do the work without the level of assistance they will need. It is not easy to be 15 and the general age of a high school sophomore, and not be able to fill out a 6th grade level lab sheet and especially if you are neuro typical and know it. These parents are open about their children being neuro typical. For the most part, the parents claim their choices based on religion or not wanting their children to leave the area, not wanting them to leave home, not wanting them to engage in a lifestyle not specifically prescribed by mom and dad. In these cases, I would otherwise not know nor care because we will work with anyone where they are at so long as their attitude is good, and they aren't disruptive. I've taught in both public and private schools and am well aware of the struggles children with learning disabilities face as well as the differences in learning styles, so the fact that a 15 year old might struggle with a 6th grade lab sheet is neither here nor there to me until some homeschooling parent tells me that they this kid hasn't done math or English since 5th grade, and they don't allow any classical literature or high school level reading in order to protect their children "from the world", etc. Then I have a problem. That's neglect. That's not even a GED level education. If they didn't share, I'd go about my business not knowing. That would be, for me a person who deeply cares about education, much more blissful!

 

Years back, I also did work briefly with a local homeschool group to teach upper math and science. But when 14 year olds can't multiply two digit numbers together, or add 1/3 and 1/2, or have never been introduced to the concept that 1/4 is equal to 25%, I can't teach them algebra, high school biology, and chemistry. I can't teach them physical science. I'm hard pressed to teach them 7th grade general science. Confronted with how far behind 1/3 of the children were, the parents of that 1/3 dropped their students from the roster. I only taught for one semester because of the class that was left, only half of those parents were really interested in the academic class offering. Most just wanted "happy, happy fun fun science" or algebra but not "too many problems" meaning that if the assignment was for more than 10 or 15 equations they thought I was being completely unreasonable...we are talking simple linear equations with one variable, or d=rt, find the measure of an angle whose measure is 30 degrees more than it's supplement, etc. An assignment of 20 questions that would take not more than 30 minutes to complete on their own time when I had them for an hour and did instruction for 40 minutes then let them work so that I could walk around the room and see who might need more help could just about be completed in the time allotted to the class. I still had that many parents who thought the social time was more important than the academics.

 

So, I have seen what I would define as educational neglect because many of the homeschooled students who dropped 4-H or the co-cop courses were old enough to take the GED and were not capable of passing it. That's 9th grade, no algebra 1, only what would have been an 8th grade reading comprehension level 20 years ago. The VAST majority of the neuro-typical students of our local PS high school could take and pass the GED the first time through. They are not that functionally or numerically illiterate. So the parents cannot claim that whatever their older child is doing throughout the day is automatically better than the PS, yet I heard that argument A LOT!

 

 

[creekland]

See, this is where I think I just part company with a lot of people here. I think it's not that you all know different homeschoolers (well, maybe a few of you as I don't know any drug dealing, crime family homeschoolers...) 

 

I didn't know these existed either - until I spent more time in our ps with certain people who deal with it and got quite the education.  These aren't the people joining hs co-ops.  When they do things they usually buy Wally World workbooks and the answers in them look rather suspiciously copied after the first few pages.

 

 

An adequate education should teach a student that there is a difference between the way you write in an academic setting vs. in a text message. It is something I was taught, the difference between formal and informal writing.

 

The fact that they aren't learning this in high school writing courses shows that many are not getting an adequate education in America.

 

 

The fact that they aren't LEARNING this in school does not mean it is not TAUGHT in school.  It is.  Many of these kids should know.  They either don't care or purposely do things differently as some of them expect to change the world of writing in their generation (so I was told by one who insisted upon doing it).  These things drive teachers crazy...

 

Hs or ps, someone can teach, present, require, or whatever, but one can't actually open a brain and instill knowledge.  Sooner or later the student actually has to do something in this process.

 

I do not feel all homeschoolers need to be at higher levels than all (or even a majority) of ps kids.  I just think all kids have a right to be exposed to education of some sort.

 

As others have mentioned, where that line is drawn could be a thousand page thread.

[chiguirre]

You realize that there are huge homeschool groups and co-ops out there that many on this board belong to, right?  That's quite a bit of exposure to homeschooled families.  Some of us have some children in ps and some homeschooled.  So, exposure to each.

 

You seem to claim that you are around more homeschooled families (along with your education and work-related experience), so your opinion is somehow more valid (?), but I disagree.  Many of us are also highly educated and have experience in a variety of settings.  I think all of our opinions are valid, and I don't think some opinions are more valid than others (who have not posted their resumes).

I think Joanne and FaithManor's opinions are more valid than those of us who know lots of hsers but have never taught them high school subjects. I've met some hsed teens that I know for a fact can't do fractions/decimals/percents. I don't know if they've got LDs or not. I don't know how well any of the homeschooled teens write beyond a message board post. I have no reason to. It's not easy to judge someone's academic level unless you've taught them once you're past the ability to read ambient text and do simple arithmetic.

[FaithManor]

Michigan Merit Curriculum

High School Graduation Requirements

MATHEMATICS - 4 Credits

Algebra I Geometry

Algebra IIONLINE LEARNING One math course in final year of high school

ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS - 4 Credits

English Language Arts 9 English Language Arts 11

English Language Arts 10 English Language Arts 12

SCIENCE - 3 Credits

Biology One additional science credit

Physics or Chemistry

SOCIAL STUDIES - 3 Credits

.5 credit in Civics .5 credit in Economics

U.S. History and Geography World History and Geography

PHYSICAL EDUCATION & HEALTH - 1 Credit

VISUAL, PERFORMING AND APPLIED ARTS - 1 Credit

ONLINE LEARNING EXPERIENCE

Course, Learning or Integrated Learning Experience

LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH - 2 Credits

In grades 9-12; OR an equivalent learning experience in grades K-12 effective for students entering third grade in 2006 (Class 2016)

 

 

Students with specific IEP's can be exempted from this, and their diploma is not called the Michigan Merit Diploma. I think it's called General, but I'd have to look that up.

 

Here is the link for homeschool law. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/home_schools_122555_7.pdf

 

There is no exemption for parents to fail to educate to through the high school level and until the age of 18 or unless the student were to start college or trade school sooner as college and trade school coursework is considered high school and post high school level. Therefore, sending them to CC at 15 is perfectly acceptable. Not doing high school level academics without an IEP is actually a violation of state law for high school age students who have not yet attained the credits for graduation OR successfully passed the GED. We have not had any backlash locally against parents who do not do this however.

 

Anyway, I thought this might be of interest to some. It's funny, I don't consider 16 credits to be "merit". LOL, mine have to have 16 in the core, plus at least two foreign language, two fine arts, and electives! But, I agree that I am not the best person to put on any committee for "what should the state require of homeschoolers". :lol:  I am more than willing to admit that!

[Catwoman]

Is it really necessary for anyone to start posting resumes and lists of their qualifications? :confused:

 

I value everyone's opinion here, regardless of their "official" qualifications.

 

I don't think anyone should feel the need to prove the validity or usefulness of their posts.

[TranquilMind]

Perhaps the OP might consider putting a tag on this thread, like "sensitive information" or something. Censoring information for the sake of keeping people happy is logistically impossible, and not at all what many consider an appropriate criteria for education - our children's as well as our own. I'll just leave this comment as a bookmark until I can read the article in the link. 

What is sensitive about it?

Some parents have failed their children.  This is true.  Some of them failed them educationally, and others failed in other ways, regardless of schooling situation. 

 

We should all be able to easily discuss this.  I'm sure we all know some home schooled kids who were not well-served, as well as some delinquents in the public school system, and everything in between. 

 

This article was fairly well-balanced about this, to my surprise, considering the source. 

[amy g.]

My daughter with multiple learning disabilities who has been home schooled all the way through just received her invitation to join Phi Theta Kappa. She attends the same community college system where Joanne has taught. 

 

She tries not to take any classes that are not honors classes, because the other students do not show up, or text through class when they do show up. The level of competency and maturity and basic manners are really quite shocking. These are kids who have graduated from our public schools, not home schoolers.

 

On the other hand I know homeschooling families who feel very superior about having home schooled their kids, but those same kids are far below the level of the kids at the community college who attended public school.

 

Some people are having great results with homeschooling.

 

My personal friends with kids graduating from our public schools are very well-educated, BUT the reason they are is because my friends have after schooled them, paid for Kumon, and tutors every year from elementary school through high school graduation.

 

I am very concerned about homeschooling children who do not become educated. I just feel that the public schools need to get their own act together before providing oversight to home schoolers.

[justamouse]

I've seen it in extreme fundamentalist houses, and unschooling houses. Both extremes have it. 


 

[albeto.]

What is sensitive about it?

Some parents have failed their children.  This is true.  Some of them failed them educationally, and others failed in other ways, regardless of schooling situation. 

 

We should all be able to easily discuss this.  I'm sure we all know some home schooled kids who were not well-served, as well as some delinquents in the public school system, and everything in between. 

 

This article was fairly well-balanced about this, to my surprise, considering the source. 

 

It was apparently a sensitive topic to a poster early in the thread, but I agree with you that this should be discussed here without difficulty. The OP offered a much better reason to not tag the thread with any kind of label, imo. 

 

I still haven't read the article. Maybe later...

[FO4UR]

I don't doubt that educational neglect happens. I've seen it before...now. The case I'm thinking of is completely 100% part of an abuse dynamic, meaning that the educational neglect is purposeful, and meant as a means to control the lives (current and future) of the children.  It's sick, and something needs to be done.  What?  Turn them in to be audited via state law.  There must be SOME education going on.

 

 

That said....

 

 

If you think a family going light on a subject for a year is educational neglect, then I think it *is* the norm. Most homeschoolers I know have periods of more academics and less. I just don't consider that educational neglect. It's usually part of a purposeful choice on some level.

 

I agree with this. I have done this. I've got a dyslexic child who just wasn't reading at all (no matter how much we worked -- and after 2.5yrs of SWR...SOMETHING had to give!!!). I dropped every academic pursuit for him besides reading lessons, copywork, and math (and the math was mostly oral/hands-on). He needed TIME and SPACE to focus on learning to read. He's 11yo now and reading LOTR aloud to me. His math didn't skip a beat. His writing...well...he's working really hard on that this year.

 

History and science and literature never stopped, but they took the form of read alouds and documentaries. He has a broad knowledge base and a huge vocabulary. Part of our problem in writing right now is that he can't spell the words he wants to use. Sometimes *I* can't spell those words...LOL...

 

I share this to show that there are some valid academic reasons to pare down to slim academics. I know that if I kept plodding through a full schedule for him, he would still be trying to read Magic Tree House without stumbling. I made the decision based on *LONG TERM GOALS!* I am still working towards those goals years later. The improvement is striking, and I'm fully confident that he will enter college with the ability to read and write well. However, his timeline is very different than most kids.  If he were tested after 3rd grade, he would have failed miserably. His story is not that uncommon. In fact, many people begin homeschooling b/c they have kids who need a different timeline.

 

The difference is in both motives and action towards some goal. My motivation for whittling down ds's schedule was always to give him a chance to get a leg up on reading, never to keep him illiterate. The problem with standardized testing is that they don't account for individual struggles outside the "norm."  If he were forced into PS based on a failed 3rd grade test...he would not likely be reading. Learning to read took every ounce of mental energy from him for well over a year! 

 

 

 

His little brother showed the same signs of dyslexia as a little guy, and I took a Better Late path for him.  He's 3rd grade and doing fine. He skipped from K level to 2nd grade level overnight at age 7. (b/c I was inputting education without expecting output for so long)  He should have been born in Finland where they start 1st grade at 7yo.  He'd flourish there.

 

 

I've got a dear friend who unschools her child. tbh, it's the very best thing for him...and though she calls them unschoolers, she is really a VERY creative, relaxed and individualized schooler.  He's extremely smart and sensitive. I have no worries about his future.  She has no workbook evidence to turn in...

 

 

How could we possibly evaluate in a fair manner, across the board, without harming the special cases who ARE doing the right thing?

 

 

There will always be people who use the system that is in place to abuse their position. Don't harm the people who do the right thing in process of weeding out the bad.

 

 

[FaithManor]

Is it really necessary for anyone to start posting resumes and lists of their qualifications? :confused:

 

I value everyone's opinion here, regardless of their "official" qualifications.

 

I don't think anyone should feel the need to prove the validity or usefulness of their posts.

Jinnah seemed to want it. I'll delete since it was offensive to others. She posted concerned that Joanne and I had not posted our resumes to back up our opinions. I'll go take care of it.

 

Sorry.

[unsinkable]

You realize that there are huge homeschool groups and co-ops out there that many on this board belong to, right? That's quite a bit of exposure to homeschooled families. Some of us have some children in ps and some homeschooled. So, exposure to each.

 

You seem to claim that you are around more homeschooled families (along with your education and work-related experience), so your opinion is somehow more valid (?), but I disagree. Many of us are also highly educated and have experience in a variety of settings. I think all of our opinions are valid, and I don't think some opinions are more valid than others (who have not posted their resumes).

Jinnah seemed to want it. I'll delete since it was offensive to others. She posted concerned that Joanne and I had not posted our resumes to back up our opinions. I'll go take care of it.

 

Sorry.

I don't think Jinnah wanted anyone to post a resume.

 

Perhaps I missed her point but I thought it was that people who have not posted their resumes still have valid opinions.

[justamouse]

 

I've got a dear friend who unschools her child. tbh, it's the very best thing for him...and though she calls them unschoolers, she is really a VERY creative, relaxed and individualized schooler.  He's extremely smart and sensitive. I have no worries about his future.  She has no workbook evidence to turn in...

 

 

How could we possibly evaluate in a fair manner, across the board, without harming the special cases who ARE doing the right thing?

 

 

There will always be people who use the system that is in place to abuse their position. Don't harm the people who do the right thing in process of weeding out the bad.

 

I think unschooling done well, is the best way to homeschool a child. *However*, I also think it is harder than homeschooling, and I think very few parents can do it well. The "unschoolers" I've seen have kids who can't read, can't write, can't do math, and tell me it's all OK because once the kid *wants* to learn, they'll learn it all in a week. I think that is just as evil as telling your daughter she doesn't need a college education, she just needs to learn to sew and serve her father until she's married. 

 

Any motivation for withholding education from your child based on their sex, your religion, or your educational beliefs is still wrong. 

 

I don't think we can across the board measure this all in a fair manner. There are people who abuse the systems in every strata, wether they be parents, OR teachers. And they are trying to do something across the board, isn't it called Common Core? 

 

[VeritasMama]

The fact that they aren't LEARNING this in school does not mean it is not TAUGHT in school. It is. Many of these kids should know. They either don't care or purposely do things differently as some of them expect to change the world of writing in their generation (so I was told by one who insisted upon doing it). These things drive teachers crazy...

 

Hs or ps, someone can teach, present, require, or whatever, but one can't actually open a brain and instill knowledge. Sooner or later the student actually has to do something in this process.

 

I do not feel all homeschoolers need to be at higher levels than all (or even a majority) of ps kids. I just think all kids have a right to be exposed to education of some sort.

 

As others have mentioned, where that line is drawn could be a thousand page thread.

I'm a former teacher here, I understand that not every student is going to be able to perform at the same level. But I believe part of the problem is that students are passed through the course even if they haven't gained any skills.

 

Students who don't know that you should spell out the word you in an academic setting shouldn't be getting remedial classes from a community college. They should have been remidiated by the high school before they were allowed to graduate. The fact that they weren't, that they recieved a diploma without that basic skill, shows that they aren't recieving an "adequate" education. The outcomes matter just as much as the instruction, and spelling the word "you" properly is a pretty low bar. I'm not saying everyone has to be on the road to college, but after 12 years in school the students should be able to fill out job applications without text speak.

[Catwoman]

Jinnah seemed to want it. I'll delete since it was offensive to others. She posted concerned that Joanne and I had not posted our resumes to back up our opinions. I'll go take care of it.

 

Sorry.

I didn't get the impression that she wanted to see anyone's qualifications, but I could be mistaken about that.

 

Faith, please don't think I was offended that you posted your resume -- I think I phrased my post awkwardly because I was actually trying to be supportive of you. I didn't think you needed to post your qualifications in order for people to take your opinions and experiences seriously.

 

I'm so sorry if I came across the wrong way! :blush:

[FaithManor]

I'm a former teacher here, I understand that not every student is going to be able to perform at the same level. But I believe part of the problem is that students are passed through the course even if they haven't gained any skills.

 

Students who don't know that you should spell out the word you in an academic setting shouldn't be getting remedial classes from a community college. They should have been remidiated by the high school before they were allowed to graduate. The fact that they weren't, that they recieved a diploma without that basic skill, shows that they aren't recieving an "adequate" education. The outcomes matter just as much as the instruction, and spelling the word "you" properly is a pretty low bar. I'm not saying everyone has to be on the road to college, but after 12 years in school the students should be able to fill out job applications without text speak.

I do agree that far too much is being shoved off on community colleges. 30 years ago, there was a minimum, a somewhat decent minimum that had to be attained to get a high school diploma. Students could drop out at 16, and while not ideal in the long term, the reality is that this did allow kids who weren't responding to the course of education to leave and do something else which was probably better than keeping them against their will and oft times having them be very disruptive in class. These students, if they later wanted to graduate, did not go to community college, they went to adult education, and those courses were offered by the PS, were taught by high school teachers, and were designed for those that dropped out in their teen years and then wanted to finish. This was NOT pushed off on community college or four year institutions. There were also adult literacy programs for those that never made it to a 9th grade reading level. I think that the funding for these classes should have remained with the public high school to provide at night and on the weekends. Shoving it off on colleges was a bad idea. In our area, we do not have a single adult literacy program offered for free or low cost. One has to go to the CC and pay $115.00 a credit hour to take three semesters of reading comprehension classes in order to then enroll in freshman English. They take Basic College Mathematics - arithmetic - at $115.00 per credit, which leads to College pre-algebra at that price, to finally even get to College algebra which is required for many one year professional licensing programs. That's a lot of money, and especially when fees and college textbooks are added onto that. This kind of remediation used to be free or extremely low cost because it was considered a good community service to provide through the public school district.

 

I have a problem with grade inflation, passing along - though yah...you can't have 6'2" five o'clock shadow students in the same class with 10 year olds either because that presents a whole barrel of problems too. 

 

I am not certain when it became the college's job to get everyone up to 100 level coursework. The trend is very disturbing, and I wish colleges would refrain from getting heavily involved in offering the kind of remediation that harks back to 6th-10th grade. It seems that for those that do this, it also corresponds to a watering down of the next level of classes. I have some ideas why that might be happening, though nothing concrete to go on just that some friends who are CC instructors report that the more remedial courses their institution adds each year, the more they are pressured to lower their standards in higher level coursework. So, I wish that adult ed at the PS would come back, and CC's would be left out of the remediation game. I still think it is in the nation's best interests to provide this at low cost or free somewhere besides "college".

[rose]

I have a slightly unusual perspective to offer. I grew up in a disfunctional, secular home but as adult my husband and I joined a group of conservative, fringe anabaptists (I don't take the term fundementalist but I'd probably get lumped in there).

 

When I was growing up my mother pulled me out of school for most of a year due to bullying. We barely got through the distance-ed curriculum that the province (BC, CA) sent to us. My mother later pulled my much younger brother out for a year because he was having "too many conflicts" with the administration. Really he was just a mouthy brat and my parents couldn't control him. They really accomplished nothing that year and eventually the provincial authorities (Manitoba, CA) caused too much trouble and he was sent back to school. About a year later he dropped out.

 

When I was a teenager I knew one family that "homeschooled" after the mother died and the father spiralled into depression. The children were completely ferral. A friend of mine tried to report them (she was a teenager at the time) but was brushed off and told that nothing could be done because they were "registered".

 

I met one family through a homeschool play group that was homeschooling because the mother didn't think that she should ever tell her children what to do nor did she want others to do so. Basically, she didn't believe in authority over children. I witnessed her six year cuss her out without any reprucussions. I can only imagine how much education was done!

 

Jump forward to where I am now...

 

We're now "quiverful", "conservative", "fundementalist" "anabaptists". I'm not gearing my children for college (even though my dh is a medical doctor); I hope that my daughters never work outside the home; I'd be terribly sad if my children left our faith. I believe that a lot secular classics, like Shakespeare, are drivel. These stem from our sincere beliefs about separation from the world, a worldview that is diametrically opposed to a secular worldview and what we believe to be a woman's role. Most of the people that we would fellowship with would believe about the same way as us in these areas.

 

Does framing our children's education around our religious beliefs constitute educational neglect? I believe my primary goal as a parent is to pass on my faith to my children. The goals that I have for my children's education are based around this. My choices are intentional and I really don't want the state (or in our case, the province) to impose their worldview on us.

 

I guess this comes down to a question about just how important education really is. I personally value my children's education. I want them to be aware of the world around them and to not be easily deceived. I want them to be able to read and write well and to be able to frame a good argument. I want them to be able to teach themselves if they feel like what I've given them is inadequate. I want my daughters to be employable if they have to find work outside of the home. Many people that I'm in fellowship with though do not place as much attention on their children's education. Sometimes I can feel a little self-righteous about how we're doing a better job than they are but then I think about it and quesion just how important education really is. Many of those in our fellowship can't handle reading higher level writing, some can't read music when we sing, some struggle to understand complex arguments, one didn't know that W Viginia was a state (he's American), several didn't know where BC was and when they did a few didn't relise that it was in the same time zone as WA and OR (more Americans). They're all employed. They love their families, they're not stupid or ignorant. For the record, all these brothers and sisters joined our group from typical American upbringings. Are my dh and I more valuable members of our fellowhship because we're more educated? I really don't think so. Education isn't what makes a good person. It's simply a tool that helps people accomplish their greater goals, either good or evil ones. It can help accomplish employability but we all know that there are highly educated, unemployable people out there as well. Should parents be held accountable to provide this tool for their children? I suppose to some extent but I think a bare minimum is about as far as the state should go. Education is just not that important that it's worth stepping on people's liberty or freedom to pass on their worldview/religion to their children.

 

Editted to add: Please notice that I did say that I plan to educate my daughters. I just hope that they never need to work outside of the home.

[Rosie_0801]

 

 

Education is just not that important that it's worth stepping on people's liberty or freedom to pass on their worldview/religion to their children.

 

It can be.

[Jane in NC]

We're now "quiverful", "conservative", "fundementalist" "anabaptists". I'm not gearing my children for college (even though my dh is a medical doctor); I hope that my daughters never work outside the home; I'd be terribly sad if my children left our faith. I believe that a lot secular classics, like Shakespeare, are drivel. These stem from our sincere beliefs about separation from the world, a worldview that is diametrically opposed to a secular worldview and what we believe to be a woman's role. Most of the people that we would fellowship with would believe about the same way as us in these areas.

 

 

Snipping your post in order to focus on the bolded.

 

How do you prepare your daughters for the possibility of the work world, either by desire or circumstances (death of a spouse, divorce)?

 

Frankly I am taken aback to see that you call Shakespeare drivel.  Even one of the the conservative Christian speakers I heard at a homeschool convention reminded the audience during his key note that Shakespeare teaches us lessons about humanity.  And, for better or worse, we are living in the present with humanity.

 

[rose]

Snipping your post in order to focus on the bolded.

 

How do you prepare your daughters for the possibility of the work world, either by desire or circumstances (death of a spouse, divorce)?

 

Frankly I am taken aback to see that you call Shakespeare drivel. Even one of the the conservative Christian speakers I heard at a homeschool convention reminded the audience during his key note that Shakespeare teaches us lessons about humanity. And, for better or worse, we are living in the present with humanity.

 

I appreciate what Tolstoy has to say on Shakespeare (see here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27726).

 

I try to prepare my daughter for outside work by educating her like I do my son (most my children are too young still to be formally educating). My daughter says that she wants to be a midwife if she doesn't marry. I'll try to help her keep that possibility open. We had her witness my last birth (just 2 weeks ago!) and I'll have her continue with biology and some other science and math. I said in my original post that I hope that my daughter never work outside the home but I will prepare them for the possibility that they may have to at some point.

[FaithManor]

Snipping your post in order to focus on the bolded.

 

How do you prepare your daughters for the possibility of the work world, either by desire or circumstances (death of a spouse, divorce)?

 

Frankly I am taken aback to see that you call Shakespeare drivel.  Even one of the the conservative Christian speakers I heard at a homeschool convention reminded the audience during his key note that Shakespeare teaches us lessons about humanity.  And, for better or worse, we are living in the present with humanity.

 

I agree. Shakespeare contributed 12,000 or so new words alone to the English language many of which are in use today, and radically changed language usage without the additional vocabulary.

 

To each their own I guess, but I do consider it dangerous to raise girls to believe that they will never need to work or should not work. Spouses get injured, sick, and sometimes die and while sometimes there is enough life insurance to cover a lifetime of not working, for some woman whom this happens to in her 20's with children to raise on that life insurance, it's not likely that she can avoid working outside the home until she is old enough for an adult child to care for her or for social security to kick in, and even then, if she hasn't worked and is only going to draw the SS of her husband who died young, she isn't going to get much at all.

 

My own dd would LOVE to be a SAH homeschooling mother, but she has her paramedic license and will soon have her chemistry degree so should her hubby become disabled or God forbid die, she will be financially viable for taking care of her children. I cannot guarantee that my own dh's health would hold out for so long that he could financially support grandchildren and a stay at home daughter for the duration. If she had children now, he would be 68 when the first reached adulthood.

 

Does the church community you are a part of truly support, as in pay for housing, food, utilities, clothing, and medical for widows and their children or women married to sick or disabled men? If so, bravo! But, in my area, I really do not know of a church so well endowed with tithes and offerings to do that. They could help with a bill, maybe repair a car, buy some groceries. They could not keep a woman and her children in an apartment or house independently, indefinitely.

[FaithManor]

Oh, okay I see that you updated that your daughter would like to study for midwifery and will continue with math and science. Thank you for answering. I appreciate that.

[FaithManor]

Um. Yeah. I have taught writing classes for teens. Schooled teens. Home schooled teens.

 

Many people here teach and tutor and have extensive experience of the academic levels of schooled and homeschooled teens.

 

Everybody on this board brings a valid point of view particular to their own experience and their own location. I appreciate and learn from many people here, not just those who wish to be regarded as expert.

 

And no, I'm not referring to Faith. I find her posts very informative and helpful.

Sadie, I removed most of that post since I realized after comments that I should have sent that by PM to Jinnah since she was the only poster that hinted she would like to see that. I'm sorry for any confusion or offense.

[rose]

nm

[justamouse]

 Education is just not that important that it's worth stepping on people's liberty or freedom to pass on their worldview/religion to their children.

 

But aren't you doing that very thing? You're stepping on the rights of your children to be educated because of your religion? 

 

I believe that we are created to know and love God. I believe that the highest gift of being human is that we can learn and be educated so that we can in turn help, and create. 

 

You husband is a Dr. That's a high calling. Does he value his own vocation so little that he regrets his education? 

 

Granted, I don't want to raise smart jerks either, but my kids may want to be Drs, or teachers, or architects, or musicians and how are they supposed to do any of that without an education? 

 

And if the girls decide to stay home and raise their families (and that is what they want to do), then they have a wonderful education from which to draw on in teaching their own. 

 

An education is never wasted. 

 

 

[Jane in NC]

The religious tradition in which I was educated taught that the more one learns about this world, the closer one becomes to God.  I cannot say that this is the reason I studied Mathematics, but I can say that my mentor (a Catholic nun) believed that God speaks in the language of Mathematics.

 

This is part of the reason that the denial of science in certain (mostly American) religious traditions astounds me.

 

That said, I am very glad that the nuns who educated me at an all girls school never thought that their pupils would be limited in their education by their gender.  In fact, should I be imprisoned (institutionally or by illness to my home), it is my desire for knowledge that would liberate me metaphorically.

 

 

[rose]

But aren't you doing that very thing? You're stepping on the rights of your children to be educated because of your religion?

 

 

Personally, our family doesn't go the route of avoiding certain topics because they don't match our beliefs. My children are well aware of evolutionary theory, for example. Not all our associations go this route. I tend to teach my children what I think is right and what I think is wrong. Truth should hold up to scrutiny. Some of our friends believe in just teaching what they think is right. While I don't think that this is best I don't think that it's as simple as you're stating it. From my perspective it's like saying that I'm stepping on my children's rights to learn what is evil.

 

You husband is a Dr. That's a high calling. Does he value his own vocation so little that he regrets his education?

 

Granted, I don't want to raise smart jerks either, but my kids may want to be Drs, or teachers, or architects, or musicians and how are they supposed to do any of that without an education?

 

And if the girls decide to stay home and raise their families (and that is what they want to do), then they have a wonderful education from which to draw on in teaching their own.

 

An education is never wasted.

 

 

My dh wishes that he didn't spend so much time and money on his education. He's going to use it for good now but he feels like there was so much more good that he could have done with his 9 years that he spent doing post-secondary education.

[Jane in NC]

My dh wishes that he didn't spend so much time and money on his education. He's going to use it for good now but he feels like there was so much more good that he could have done with his 9 years that he spent doing post-secondary education.

 

Interesting.  May I ask what he feels would have been better than serving as a medical doctor?

 

[rose]

Interesting. May I ask what he feels would have been better than serving as a medical doctor?

 

I think that this is getting a bit too tangental. If you're sincerely interested in going that direction maybe you could pm me.

[Peaceful Isle]

Nm, don't want to get involved.

My thought too. :( I think I'm going to go make myself some coffee:)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Personally, our family doesn't go the route of avoiding certain topics because they don't match our beliefs. My children are well aware of evolutionary theory, for example. Not all our associations go this route. I tend to teach my children what I think is right and what I think is wrong. Truth should hold up to scrutiny. Some of our friends believe in just teaching what they think is right. While I don't think that this is best I don't think that it's as simple as you're stating it. From my perspective it's like saying that I'm stepping on my children's rights to learn what is evil.

 

My dh wishes that he didn't spend so much time and money on his education. He's going to use it for good now but he feels like there was so much more good that he could have done with his 9 years that he spent doing post-secondary education.

 

Nobody will ever find themselves listening to that voice from the distance admonishing them to be careful with all that education because it could lead to becoming a medical doctor and there are far more important things to do with one's life. I am not doubting one man's experience. Lots of people have career regrets. But as far as warnings for others go, or as a reason to back off on all that book larnin', this is one specious argument.

 

As to the bolded: What other way is there to use a medical degree?

 

I must say I have never in my life heard of well-educated persons with extraordinarily humanitarian and lucrative jobs wishing LESS for their children. A doctor regretting his extensive (and life-saving) education, and pooh-poohing the importance of education for his children? Really? Most parents think in the other direction, wanting their children to have lives as fulfilling and successful as their own or even more so.

 

[Dicentra]

Reading this thread led me to thinking about other threads and I wanted to pull up and share a thread from the past:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/452223-any-veterans-here-who-have-hs-their-children-successfully/?p=4657801

I love DianeW88's post - I have it printed out and posted on my fridge. :)  I think she was saying what FaithManor, Joanne, and others have been saying - as homeschoolers, we need to encourage each other to do what we need to do to get the teaching done.  "Neglect" is a harsh word and I don't think I'd call it that but when homeschooling mamas are struggling, we don't do them any favours by telling them that it's OK because they can make it up in a few years.  For some kids - yes, they may be able to do 3 years of math in a few months.  Most can't.  It's not always better because it's home.  As a previous poster stated, I know I'll be ruffling feathers by saying all of this and I'm sorry for that.  I do think "homeschool fails" are homeschooling's dirty little secret (I seem to remember reading that in another thread from about the same time period as the last one but I can't find it) and it's not just spectacular fails that we would all, without hesitation, call neglect or abuse.  It's the non-spectacular ones where we start out with the best of intentions and then it just... gets away from us.  We need to support each other in those times but it isn't going to help anyone when we trot out the mantra, "It's OK.  Whatever you do, it's better than they'd get at public school.".  That just isn't always true.  We need to encourage the struggling mamas to get back on track and if they are in a situation where it just isn't possible for the moment that there's no shame in putting the kids in public or private school until things get sorted out.  Homeschooling is hard, exhausting, and time consuming.  If we choose to do it all the way through, we ARE it, educationally, for our kids.  There is no one else to pick up the slack.

 

And now, to follow DianeW88's advice, I need to get off the Internet and do some marking from this week. :)

[rose]

Nobody will ever find themselves listening to that voice from the distance admonishing them to be careful with all that education because it could lead to becoming a medical doctor and there are far more important things to do with one's life. I am not doubting one man's experience. Lots of people have career regrets. But as far as warnings for others go, or as a reason to back off on all that book larnin', this is one specious argument.

 

As to the bolded: What other way is there to use a medical degree?

I meant as opposed to giving up medicine altogether he's going to continue to be a doctor

 

I must say I have never in my life heard of well-educated persons with extraordinarily humanitarian and lucrative jobs wishing LESS for their children. A doctor regretting his extensive (and life-saving) education, and pooh-poohing the importance of education for his children? Really? Most parents think in the other direction, wanting their children to have lives as fulfilling and successful as their own or even more so.

 

It depends on what you find fulfilling. Way too many my dh's colleagues are not living fulfilling lives. Many our workaholics with broken marriages and heaps of debt. From our experience, the brothers and sisters in our fellowhip are leading more fulfilling and successful lives than my dh's colleagues.