How much of personality is nature, how much is nurture (and if it's nurture, is there any way to change it?)

[nature girl]

My DH and I are both very soft-spoken, laid back people, we almost never yell, and we have a hard time around louder people. Our DD is exactly the opposite though, and not only is she loud--I think I could deal with just the loudness--she also is extremely bossy and demanding, and often impolite. It really got to me today, because we were with a friend and her same-aged daughter who is so quiet and sweet, and my daughter was continuously trying to tell her what and what not to do. Like they were sharing carrots, and she'd tell her friend she could have ONE carrot but wasn't allowed to finish them; she told her she wasn't allowed to climb on chairs, etc. The girl thought she'd found a bug on a tree and Anna kept calling her a liar, telling her it was just part of the bark. She also talks in a loud tone of voice constantly, like she only has one volume, and she rarely stops to listen, and gets so easily frustrated and whiny.

 

I was so embarrassed about her behavior today, especially obvious because this friend is so calm and sweet, but I have no idea how to deal with it other than to continuously reprimand, tell her she's being rude. (And of course she doesn't listen and doesn't care.) I don't know whether, if she was in ps, she'd eventually learn how to interact with other children better, or if loud obnoxiousness an innate personality trait. (I know that sounds awful, and of course I adore my DD regardless, but this seems to be who she's turning into--We all know adults like that.) Are there ways at home to teach children to be kind and gentle (and speak more softly)?

[Arcadia]

For speaking softly, being in the library or any quiet place helps. Kids are reminded by librarians to tone down their voice to a polite level.

 

At home just keep reminding what is polite behavior. At a certain age, if your daughter is still "obnoxious" by peer standards, she will get excluded from group activities/games and be unofficially labelled as the bossy one.

 

My kids play with other kids at the neighborhood park. "Bossy" kids just get ignored. You (general) do not need to go to school to experience that.

 

ETA:

If its for your four year old, sending her to school won't do anything. She will learn in time what is "acceptable" among her peers.

[maize]

Personality? Nature.

 

Behavior? Children can learn to modify their behavior. You're not going to turn a naturally loud, rambunctious kid into a quiet, gentle kid but they can learn to interact with people in ways appropriate to the circumstances--assuming they also have opportunities to fully express their natural personality. It is not reasonable to expect a person to always restrain their natural tendencies.

[maize]

Oh,and a tendency to speak loudly can occasionally be a sign of hearing loss.

[KrissiK]

As the mother of 5 adopted kids.... I'd say it's nature. Our kids are absolutely nothing like us in any way shape or form. I met the bio mom of my boys only a couple of times, and in stressful circumstances, but I can definitely say... The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[fairfarmhand]

Being embarrassed of your kids is a big problem.  Try to remember it is YOUR problem not theirs.  Ego and parenting do not mix.  I really relate because my ego was constantly under attack when parenting my now 17 yr old aspie.  It was a constant struggle for me!

 

Yes!

 

Accept her more brash and bold personality for who she is. Then gently teach her how to channel it into kind and fun avenues.

 

She will never be a quiet, gentle person. But love her for who she is. Commend her for her boldness and please please please don't criticize her too much. 10 positives for every negative will help her learn to hear you. When a constant stream of negativity is spouted, we tend to tune things out.

 

(this is what I've learned from my own bold, extroverted dd I've made these mistakes. Kids pick up on your disapproval, even if it is not voiced)

[Jenny in Florida]

Is this the daughter who is four years old?

[Susan in TX]

I have ten children and I am convinced that personality is 110% nature. But that doesn't mean that you cannot teach a child to behave in certain ways. It just takes time and patience. Your daughter is only 4. What you describe is pretty normal 4 year old girl behavior. You don't need to be embarrassed by it.

 

 

Susan in TX

[City Mouse]

I wouldn't worry about the bossy stuff much at 4. Maybe you could work with the other parent to teach the other girl how to respond when your dd is being "bossy".

 

As far as the volume level, my kids TKD instructor used to do this great activity with the kids where he put number values on their volume and they practiced different levels of volume. It really helped some kids learn the difference between a "10" volume and a "3" or inside voice.

[freesia]

I have ten children and I am convinced that personality is 110% nature. But that doesn't mean that you cannot teach a child to behave in certain ways. It just takes time and patience. Your daughter is only 4. What you describe is pretty normal 4 year old girl behavior. You don't need to be embarrassed by it.

 

 

Susan in TX

This.

 

Four year olds are often loud and boisterous. Many are also very bossy. Maybe you should see if your library has some books about the developmental stages of children. I like Your Four Year Old: Wild and Wonderful. Of course you need to correct the bossiness, but do it gently. Remind her to use indoor voices.

 

Maybe you can take this as a growth opportunity--that it is time to try to look and see what is good about more extroverted personalities. It will help you guide her into embracing what is good about who she is without feeling like you are reacting from a place of criticism.

 

Also, FWIW, my boisterous 4 yo boy settled down nicely--but it took a while. As dh says, "They are young and immature. That's why we still have them."

[maize]

If you're struggling to understand why just being quiet and polite could be so hard for your daughter, imagine how you would feel if people were always telling you to speak loudly and be assertive. If that behavior does not come naturally to you, it would be difficult and frustrating to be consistently required to act that way. Could you learn to do it? Probably. But it would be uncomfortable and hard to maintain all the time.

 

It is much harder for a four year old to modify their behavior to meet someone else's standard than it is for an adult, they have neither the mental maturity nor the experience that you have to draw on. Don't be embarrassed by your child's natural temperament, and don't allow yourself to constantly reprimand her for acting the way she is driven to act. Do teach, gently and consistently, how to approach social interactions in a way that will not drive others away. Social stories, or role-playing different scenarios, can be helpful. And make sure to look for the positive aspects of her personality. Is she eager to try new things? Not shy or afraid of talking and interacting with people she doesn't know well? Does she have a high energy level and lots of ideas? Some children are more challenging to parent than others, but every child has positive characteristics that are worth noticing and appreciating.

[Farrar]

Being embarrassed of your kids is a big problem.  Try to remember it is YOUR problem not theirs.  Ego and parenting do not mix.  I really relate because my ego was constantly under attack when parenting my now 17 yr old aspie.  It was a constant struggle for me!

 

I just want to second this a million times. Being embarrassed is my biggest bugabu/phobia so it's not always easy for me, but I'll tell you - the moments when I parented out of embarrassment or, worse, fear of being embarrassed, are not my best.

 

Other have given some good advice. I totally agree that you can't change a kid's nature or her basic personality. Wanting to is probably - like being embarrassed of your kid - not a good place to be as a parent. You can change her behavior. However, you probably can't really begin to work on the behavior (and fully see what's behavior and what's personality) until you learn to appreciate all her good traits. Those traits are going to be really good for her in her life - stubborn people often know to protect themselves and stand up for themselves (good things!), loud and bossy, when channeled well can be strong leadership (good things! especially for jobs!). She knows what she wants - that's a good thing. How many people wander for years because they can never figure out what they want? I'll bet there's more to her personality than this stuff. I think I would maybe make a goal for yourself to, every time she's making you crazy, just try to reflexively tell yourself something super positive about her.

 

As for the behavior... She's four. Most four year olds are bossy. I would pick something really, really specific and work on altering that behavior. The volume control is probably too big an issue (and, really, is something that IME kids can't learn to control at this age but will be able to later - work on it in - deep breath - a year or two), but something like calling the friend a name - liar - is something specific that I think you could make a difference with. So if she does call other kids names, then every time, every single time, have a consequence ready and carry it out right on the spot. Since calling names is very rude, if you're into logical consequences it could be that she has to do something nice for the friend. Or, she has to sit out for a time away from everyone or just leave when she calls names. Or you may have another approach. Whatever you pick to work on, don't make it about her, make it about the behavior.

[nature girl]

So many excellent comments and suggestions here, thank you all SO much. I've bookmarked this thread so I can read it over again several times in the coming months, and show it to my husband who I think has a harder time with it all than I do.

 

There really are so many good things about my DD that probably go hand in hand with the brashness, she has an amazing sense of humor, feels everything deeply, is crazy imaginative and makes friends with everybody. It does help to remind myself of all of that, she cracks me up every day and much as I wish sometimes that she was more laid back, I don't want to squash her exuberance, it's a riot and I think is a sign of innate happiness. I keep thinking of the saying "Parent the child you have, not the child you wish you had..." Which I guess is what we're learning how to do. The interactions with other kids will hopefully improve with reminders (I love the idea of role playing too), and as she develops her own filters as she gets older.

 

I'll also say though that part of me worries that the loudness/bossiness might be in part because she's an only, because she doesn't typically act this obnoxiously at home. She doesn't need to, she's used to having our attention, so out in public she demands it of everybody. (Another issue that would at least in part be addressed/molded in ps.) This is reinforcing that we need as many social interactions as possible over the next months/years.

[Doodlebug]

I have a similar situation here with our DS.  

 

I wish I could tell my parenting-a-4-year-old self that I'd likely perceive my son's actions as being more intense than they really were.  As a quiet soulful pleaser type, I bristle at suddenness and forthright behavior.  That reaction needs/needed curbing.  I wish I hadn't parented out of my discomfort.

 

I've found that when I wish I could rewind an entire playdate, and address each behavior as it occurred, that I'm likely fighting personality/nature and the problem is most likely mine.  That doesn't mean he's perfect in those circumstances, it just means that the level of angst I assign to his behavior is off.  

 

In the scenario you described with your DD, the better part of me would see that she's playing with her friend in the way she sees the world... true/false.  Safe/not safe.  Some/none.  Working with her on asking questions, as opposed to making declarations, would be a positive move.  "Do you think that's safe, friend?"  "Why do you think that's a bug?  It looks like bark!"  And that gives you a simple behavior cue to use with her in those situations, "Would you please ask more questions, DD?"  

 

Stella   

 

 

  

[freesia]

I'll also say though that part of me worries that the loudness/bossiness might be in part because she's an only, because she doesn't typically act this obnoxiously at home. She doesn't need to, she's used to having our attention, so out in public she demands it of everybody. (Another issue that would at least in part be addressed/molded in ps.) This is reinforcing that we need as many social interactions as possible over the next months/years.

Does it help to know that my 5 year old daughter, who is the youngest of 4, is very bossy and can be demanding. I, of course, blame it on the fact that she is the youngest of 4 and always has an audience. LOL

 

The point really is, she is young and loves people and action. Yes, provide your dd with opportunities to practice, but don't worry about the reason too much.

 

Sometimes, when everyone is busy, my youngest comes to me and wants my attention (Ok, every time). I try to strike a balance. I have her wait sometimes. I say no sometimes. I play or read with her sometimes. I want her to know that, while I love her and enjoy being with her, our family isn't her personal entertainment system and sometimes she needs to entertain herself. This has become easier for her as she has moved past her fifth birthday.

 

(5, btw, is a quieter age for most children)

[Black-eyed Suzan]

You've received excellent advice. :) I second the Your Four Year Old: Wild and Wonderful by Ames. That series is dated, but great in terms of learning what is developmentally appropriate for each age.

 

I also like Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. 

 

Hugs! Parenting is hard!

[Ellie]

My DH and I are both very soft-spoken, laid back people, we almost never yell, and we have a hard time around louder people. Our DD is exactly the opposite though, and not only is she loud--I think I could deal with just the loudness--she also is extremely bossy and demanding, and often impolite. It really got to me today, because we were with a friend and her same-aged daughter who is so quiet and sweet, and my daughter was continuously trying to tell her what and what not to do. Like they were sharing carrots, and she'd tell her friend she could have ONE carrot but wasn't allowed to finish them; she told her she wasn't allowed to climb on chairs, etc. The girl thought she'd found a bug on a tree and Anna kept calling her a liar, telling her it was just part of the bark. She also talks in a loud tone of voice constantly, like she only has one volume, and she rarely stops to listen, and gets so easily frustrated and whiny.

 

I was so embarrassed about her behavior today, especially obvious because this friend is so calm and sweet, but I have no idea how to deal with it other than to continuously reprimand, tell her she's being rude. (And of course she doesn't listen and doesn't care.) I don't know whether, if she was in ps, she'd eventually learn how to interact with other children better, or if loud obnoxiousness an innate personality trait. (I know that sounds awful, and of course I adore my DD regardless, but this seems to be who she's turning into--We all know adults like that.) Are there ways at home to teach children to be kind and gentle (and speak more softly)?

 

Here's the thing: I believe there's a reason that God put her in *your* care and not in someone else's: He wanted her to have that exuberant personality but He wanted her to have parents who would help her learn to control it because they are not like that. :-)

 

It is not important for her to learn to interact with other children. It is important for her to learn how to behave well in society; she can learn that from you. She will NOT learn how to behave appropriately by being with other children all day. Remember that they are still learning, as well; it would be like expecting her to learn good table manners by eating with 30 other children daily who also do not have good table manners.

 

If your dd is being bossy, then you need to instruct and correct her. If she is impolite, then you need to instruct and correct her. Whatever it is, you need to instruct and correct her. You will do this lovingly and consistently because you care how she behaves, and you will do it daily for 18 years. :-)

[maize]

I think there can be a tendency for oldest or only children to self-identify with the adults in their lives; since adults tell them what to do they imitate the behavior and tell other people what to do. Perhaps in time this tendency will develop into strong leadership ability; in the meantime it wouldn't hurt to gently remind your DD if she is telling other kids what to do that it is their mom's/dad's job to give them instructions and she is not their mom.

 

I have to remind my older kids all the time that directing the youngers in the family is not their responsibility :D

[AimeeM]

Honestly? Most 4/5 year olds I know are bossy little twerps :)

I have a generally very nice, very affectionate little boy (barely 5), who is also quite the bossy little thing more often than not. I think you have a bit before you worry.

[wintermom]

My youngest is very physical, loud, takes initiative, and loves an audience.  My dh and I were reflecting back in our lives to try and remember what we were like at age 4, and sure enough, if you added the most active of dh's and my personalities mixed together (perhaps with a little dynamite added in?) it wasn't a stretch to see the genes involved. Anyway, it does help me to remember that I was a lot like he is, and look at me now - I can fit in, be polite and remember to only boss around my own family members. ;)

[texasmama]

In short, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.  :)

 

All four of my kids have been quite different, but none of them were terribly loud bossypants.  I do not credit myself for this.  They were just not born to be terribly loud bossypants.  Actually, one of my children is very loud.  He's just the exhuberant type.  Everything he does is BIG. 

 

I would shadow her some while interacting with other kids and correct her in the moment.  "Susie does not like being called a liar.  That is rude."  Couch it in terms of learning to be a good friend.  The mistake I see most often with well-meaning parents is to use too many words during correction.  Be succinct and direct.  Don't wax eloquent.

 

Also, be encouraged that most of her peers will not be horrified by her behavior as you are.  Kids are pretty accepting at this age.  Some kids are also "followers" and don't mind a peer taking the lead.  No, she should not call her friend a liar, but much of the rest of it will be overlooked by peers, as they will just be happy to have a playmate.

 

ETA:  You have what is termed as a "goodness of fit" issue between you and dh and your dd.  This happens when the parents are naturally very different from the child.  It takes a stretch for the parents to understand and appreciate the child's natural characteristics.  You can do it.  :)

[Catherine]

You've gotten good ideas so far. I would just add that conversation and listening are not strengths for most children this. I learned from experience to address my concerns IMMEDIATELY and succinctly. And to enforce. All the admonishing in the world will go in one ear and out the other for most 4 year olds. If my kids had not been forced to comply, they veyr often would have ignored me. So I learned to, firmly but gently, insist that they comply immediately. And I learned to keep my corrections very brief and infrequent. So pick your battles, but make them count. And warn her ahead of time that you will be doing so, then she will not be surprised. She may not comply right away, but she won't be surprised.

[AimeeM]

Ugh, this. Four is one of my least favorite ages. They tend to be bossy and willful, even mild mannered kids. Five has been like a ray of sunlight with each child, honestly, where things seem to improve a great deal :)

With 5 the bossiness seems to be getting better, but the whining... oh my. 

[Aspasia]

Being embarrassed of your kids is a big problem.  Try to remember it is YOUR problem not theirs.  Ego and parenting do not mix.  I really relate because my ego was constantly under attack when parenting my now 17 yr old aspie.  It was a constant struggle for me!

 

Here's an article I read today and wished I had read when my oldest was little!

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2014/09/02/kids-in-public-places-having-meltdowns-its-a-good-thing/

 

 

I love this article, but I wish people wouldn't shame other parents for having natural reactions to their kids' behavior--and embarrassment is absolutely a natural reaction to certain behaviors. Kids can be embarrassing!

 

I do really like what Farrar said, though, that the problem comes when you parent out of embarrassment. That's totally different than simply being embarrassed, and I don't think any of us are at our best when we parent that way.

 

 

I just want to second this a million times. Being embarrassed is my biggest bugabu/phobia so it's not always easy for me, but I'll tell you - the moments when I parented out of embarrassment or, worse, fear of being embarrassed, are not my best.

 

Other have given some good advice. I totally agree that you can't change a kid's nature or her basic personality. Wanting to is probably - like being embarrassed of your kid - not a good place to be as a parent. You can change her behavior. However, you probably can't really begin to work on the behavior (and fully see what's behavior and what's personality) until you learn to appreciate all her good traits. Those traits are going to be really good for her in her life - stubborn people often know to protect themselves and stand up for themselves (good things!), loud and bossy, when channeled well can be strong leadership (good things! especially for jobs!). She knows what she wants - that's a good thing. How many people wander for years because they can never figure out what they want? I'll bet there's more to her personality than this stuff. I think I would maybe make a goal for yourself to, every time she's making you crazy, just try to reflexively tell yourself something super positive about her.

 

As for the behavior... She's four. Most four year olds are bossy. I would pick something really, really specific and work on altering that behavior. The volume control is probably too big an issue (and, really, is something that IME kids can't learn to control at this age but will be able to later - work on it in - deep breath - a year or two), but something like calling the friend a name - liar - is something specific that I think you could make a difference with. So if she does call other kids names, then every time, every single time, have a consequence ready and carry it out right on the spot. Since calling names is very rude, if you're into logical consequences it could be that she has to do something nice for the friend. Or, she has to sit out for a time away from everyone or just leave when she calls names. Or you may have another approach. Whatever you pick to work on, don't make it about her, make it about the behavior.

[Kerileanne99]

Hhhmm, much of this sounds a bit like my dd. She isn't bossy, but is soooo loud, opinionated, and she tends to somehow always take over the situation. She has trouble with reading the social cues and knowing how to deal with other children. There are many reasons for this, and we are working on them...

That being said, it breaks my heart. She is just so clever, vibrant, and funny. Yet nobody is going to get to see that side of her (or won't care!) if she continues to just sort of dominate everything. She WANTS to play with the kids, but really has a hard time with it.

The psychologist that did her most recent testing for school suggested that sometimes kids do much better if you can approach correcting their behavior in terms of getting what they want and need. My dd is very egocentric (I think most 4 year olds probably are!) and she seems to 'get' that approach. I don't JUST tell her that a behavior is rude, but put it in terms of how rudeness will affect her and the relationships/things she wants.

The dr. Also recommended a book called The Unwritten Rules of Friendship. It is more for you (with a four year old) but there are lots of strategies for teaching social interactions, ways to approach making children more aware of how their interactions color people's opinions...and how that will ultimately affect them. I found it really pretty useful, and it has helped me to understand others a bit better as well:)

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0316917303?qid=1409856426&sr=8-6&vs=1

It

[Korrale]

Yup. Sounds a lot like my 4 year old. He was the most mild mannered laid back 2 and early 3 year old. Never a tantrum. So much like his father. But oh my,.. At 4 he is bossy, argumentative, loud, rowdy.... Just like his mother. :)

So there is certainly a lot of nature in there. But there is just as much nurture. Being an only child has mattered a lot I think.

Right now all I can do is guide him to have appropriate responses. And we try and read books where kids are a little tamer. My son adores the Ramona Series. But it might have been a mistake right now. :)

[barnwife]

Yes!

 

Accept her more brash and bold personality for who she is. Then gently teach her how to channel it into kind and fun avenues.

 

She will never be a quiet, gentle person. But love her for who she is. Commend her for her boldness and please please please don't criticize her too much. 10 positives for every negative will help her learn to hear you. When a constant stream of negativity is spouted, we tend to tune things out.

 

(this is what I've learned from my own bold, extroverted dd I've made these mistakes. Kids pick up on your disapproval, even if it is not voiced)

 

 

If you're struggling to understand why just being quiet and polite could be so hard for your daughter, imagine how you would feel if people were always telling you to speak loudly and be assertive. If that behavior does not come naturally to you, it would be difficult and frustrating to be consistently required to act that way. Could you learn to do it? Probably. But it would be uncomfortable and hard to maintain all the time.

 

It is much harder for a four year old to modify their behavior to meet someone else's standard than it is for an adult, they have neither the mental maturity nor the experience that you have to draw on. Don't be embarrassed by your child's natural temperament, and don't allow yourself to constantly reprimand her for acting the way she is driven to act. Do teach, gently and consistently, how to approach social interactions in a way that will not drive others away. Social stories, or role-playing different scenarios, can be helpful. And make sure to look for the positive aspects of her personality. Is she eager to try new things? Not shy or afraid of talking and interacting with people she doesn't know well? Does she have a high energy level and lots of ideas? Some children are more challenging to parent than others, but every child has positive characteristics that are worth noticing and appreciating.

I liked both of these, but wanted to quote as well because I completely agree.

 

I was your daughter. A loud, want-to-be-boisterous, outgoing child born to 2 quiet, laid-back people.

 

My mom spent her time/energy into trying to change me into a quiet, calm child. Looking back, I'd say that was a hue mistake. Thinking of all of the times I was "shushed" when just playing still makes me feel resentful.

 

Now I am mom to 3 kids like me. And my mom still shushes them/tries to make them quiet overall kiddos all the time. And I call her on it (when they aren't being over the line). I want to embrace who they are and not have them have memories like mine.

 

[Minerva]

This is my first time posting! 

 

My daughter was rude and loud at four, but at nine is neither. 

 

I want to encourage you to remember that there is great potential for a bossy girl at four to turn out to be a great leader. I really wish I had focused on this/realized it sooner with my daughter. Maybe you can try to explain to your daughter (in four year old terms) that being strong and in charge is a great quality, but it also comes with responsibility. I think our tendency to think of girls as bossy rather than potential, natural leaders is a detriment to all of us, especially the vibrant, funny, strong little girls in the world.