Why do girls and women treat each other badly... (Turned out long)

[bettyandbob]

I started avoiding activities involving groups of women because often some social aspect devolves into middle school nastiness. The groups I've been involved with were not social groups, but volunteer stuff that supported kids sports, church or other stuff. Now, I seek out ways to solo volunteer to avoid crap. So, as an adult I've figured out how to deal in a way that works got me.

 

But I have a dd. I hate that she has to navigate this crap. I'm not a good guide because my best navigation is avoidance. It will be a few years before she can seek out the total avoidance I have. She has to interact with groups. She's a junior in high school. She dances (her ballet studio is mostly drama free, but she's super shy and experiences outside the studio impact her social interactions globally. So at the studio she's the super quiet girl in the back). She will go to college where there will be women.

 

Her dream is to write one best seller and the live on royalties in the mountains from then on. Her other interest is conservation research. Animals are honest, she's told me. Anyway, it will be years before she can get to the point in any career that she can select out of social aspects.

 

When she has problems with female social crap (what I call stupid girl s---) I just talk to her, but I can't really give advice. I guess the only thing is she has me to talk to. Which I hope is helpful. I didn't have that in high school. My mom didn't want to talk and was very unsympathetic.

 

Right now dd is hurting. She sent me a text. She's at a dance intensive. She's in class 10 hours a day (breakfast, dance, lunch, dance, dinner, dance, bed). There's not a lot of time for crap, but I guess enough. I hate when my kid is hurting. I had not heard from her in over a week so I thought all was good.

 

I hate it that she hurts. I hate that I am no help for learning the ways of female social gaming.

[zoobie]

ITA with you and sympathize. I have three girls and it gnaws at me. :grouphug:

[Katy]

I'm sorry she's going through that.  They're mean because it's a battle to see who's who in the pecking order.   They're doing that to each other too, and it's typically a lot worse in competitive environments. I can't tell from your description if she's introverted or just hasn't been exposed to that sort of thing before.

 

If she's introverted, you might have her read about introversion.

 

If she lacks skills, some of it is just going to come from being put in those situations and deciding to change and do what's socially acceptable to those girls, which is something you may or may not want to encourage.  You can try having her read things like How to Win Friends and Influence People or Social Rules for Kids or Raise Your Child's Social IQ,  all of which might help a bit if her skills are way off, but it's not going to end anytime soon.  Those kids are hypercompetitive, jealous, and hormonal and that makes them miserable people.

 

One tip:  If she can befriend the "less popular" people there she'll find that those are real friendships that will last a lifetime, but those girls in the top 3-5 of the pecking order exist in a mean and backstabbing place all the time.  If she wants to be those girls she'll need to toughen up and give it back to them, which is not something I would encourage as a parent but it is something I would mention.

[Catwoman]

I'm so sorry, Betty. :grouphug:

[bettyandbob]

I don't think she's ever wanted to be a Queen Bee. I think she doesn't understand why she can't do her own thing without a popular type saying something negative. Because what she chooses to do or wear or whatever doesn't affect them, so why do people in the "top position" even feel the need to point out and humiliate in some way.

 

I also don't think she understands why there is a need to put anyone down ever. She can't relate to that at all. She tries to do her best at the things she cares about and she is generally supportive of other people trying their best. She has a younger brother who has Down syndrome. She is very sensitive to other people working hard to accomplish something. She does befriend others who are outsiders. Having a few close friends is wonderful, but it doesn't provide immunity from negative jabs directed at you.

 

Yes, she is very introverted.

[nd293]

My 13 year old daughter really hasn't experienced much of that, and I can't say I have either. I have never engaged with mean people - I don't confront, I don't try to change, but I also don't enable, I just smile and move on.

 

The worst nastiness dd experienced was with a homeschool girl who always put down dd's style choices - her room, her clothes. We slowly distanced ourselves from the girl and her family. Dd is now at school and there is a similar type of girl, and she's now mature enough to ask, "Why on earth did I put up with O for so long?".

 

During the first two years at school where a little meanness did crop up, I reminded her that there would always, always be difficult people around, and that she could only control her behavior. She could just nod and move on when someone was mean to her, and that would remove their power over her. One of my top parenting moments was when she said "I tried that, Mom, and it worked!". She has a very small group of friends, but every one is a lovely girl, and that's the way I prefer it. We have weeded out the sometimes-nice-sometimes-mean girls, who are free to look elsewhere for their social life.

[maize]

She sounds like a lovely young lady.

 

In my experience, things improve radically after high school. Being able to choose who you associate with is the best bonus that comes with adulthood!

 

The Queen Bees are nasty because they've learned it from their culture, and because their self-esteem is not as robust as it might seem.

 

Yes, life gets better after high school. And high school itself wasn't as bad as middle school...

 

I'm always perplexed by people who tell me I have to send my kids to school or they won't learn how to deal with the real world. School sociality, in my experience, has very little in common with the adult world. I have seen occasional cliquish behavior among adult women, but it is not people I have to be around all day every day.

 

OP, I'm sorry your DD is having a hard time at dance intensives. The only solution I was ever able to come up with was to attempt to stay away from and ignore the drama, preferably with an equally drama-avoidant friend by my side, though I wasn't always able to come up with such a person.

[73349]

They do it for power.

 

She will have to let it be clear that it doesn't affect her. They will resent it. It may get worse for a bit before they give up.

 

Fortunately, most people aren't like that. And some who are will grow up and be embarrassed later.

[Katy]

I don't think she's ever wanted to be a Queen Bee. I think she doesn't understand why she can't do her own thing without a popular type saying something negative. Because what she chooses to do or wear or whatever doesn't affect them, so why do people in the "top position" even feel the need to point out and humiliate in some way.

 

I also don't think she understands why there is a need to put anyone down ever. She can't relate to that at all. She tries to do her best at the things she cares about and she is generally supportive of other people trying their best. She has a younger brother who has Down syndrome. She is very sensitive to other people working hard to accomplish something. She does befriend others who are outsiders. Having a few close friends is wonderful, but it doesn't provide immunity from negative jabs directed at you.

 

Yes, she is very introverted.

 

Those girls set themselves apart as better than others by pointing out what other people are doing differently.  Then, people are afraid of them. Queen Bees are usually the most feared girls in school, they are rarely the nicest or most liked. Especially in middle school.  Typically their mothers are similar and never grew out of it, and are that critical of their own daughters.  Sometimes they pick out one target because they genuinely have poor social skills (they brag, they do something gross like picking their nose in front of others), but typically it's just that their target is not conforming to their own secret standards (perhaps the girls prefer a certain kind of toe shoe or bun style, perhaps they just all know how to fawn over and flatter the queen bee and your daughter hasn't picked up on the need for that yet).

 

It does get better in high school, when girls get more used to their hormone swings, get a little more independent, and typically several middle schools combine into one high school so they break into cliques where everyone has friends more like them.  Also, the girls more likely to win something like Homecoming Queen are often not the queen bees from middle school but are more likely to be the fringey popular girls who are also nice to those in lower grades.

[Danestress]

. Having a few close friends is wonderful, but it doesn't provide immunity from negative jabs directed at you.

 

Yes, she is very introverted.

 

I think we all remember the negative moments pretty vividly, and they hurt.  Those jabs wound. 

 

But as an adult, I have those few close friends, and while they can't provide immunity, they do provide confidence.  They are encouraging, gracious, helpful and wise.  So I guess  I would tell her to always cultivate good female friends.  And rather than asking, "Why do women treat each other badly?" to ask, "Why can't everyone be as kind as these women?" 

 

There will always be mean people in the world, and as a mother of boys, I find it stunning how much boys put each other down.  But if (as a girl/woman) you let that stuff really under your skin, you miss out on all the sweetness, graciousness, humor and caring that female friends offer each other.  I am sure male friends can be great, too.  But I also think DH is aware that in a crisis, my friends, even the ones who have full time jobs, are the people who will look out for the kids, bring the meals, sit at the hospital etc.  I know my sisters are there for me in a more powerful way than anyone else in the world, and I just wonder why women have a bad rep when so many of them are so lovely.  I guess it's a "few bad apples" syndrome. 

[Cammie]

I didn't see if anyone above recommended it but I would suggest reading Queen Bees and Wannabees.  I read it and discussed what I learned with my dd 13.  It was eye opening!

 

If you have a daughter, like mine, who chooses to opt out of that whole popularity competition they have to be prepared for the backlash.  The other girls will feel threatened by someone who doesn't play along with the only game they know.

 

I totally agree with seeking out the other marginalized girls and making friend there. 

 

Sadly, I am dealing with a bit of this in my own social group at the moment (one dear friend is excluding another friend from certain get togethers.)  It is not easy at any age.  But now I have my own voice, my own sense of self-worth and I can deal with it.  At 13 it is so much harder!!

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

[Garga]

High school and middle school were terrible with the snide remarks and meaness. But the second I got out of school it all stopped.

 

I feel for your daughter so much. It was a deeply painful time in my life.

 

However I do have to say I rarely run into catty behavior with my adult female friends.

[myfunnybunch]

But as an adult, I have those few close friends, and while they can't provide immunity, they do provide confidence.  They are encouraging, gracious, helpful and wise.  So I guess  I would tell her to always cultivate good female friends.  And rather than asking, "Why do women treat each other badly?" to ask, "Why can't everyone be as kind as these women?" 

 

I wish I could like this a bajillion times.

 

If I could really open my kids' heads and really make them know something, it would be this: Seek out the people you want to be like, and who encourage you to be your best.

 

That's good advice at 13 and 33 and 103.

 

It takes time to build bonds with people who are more reserved, or who are kind but quiet, but it is so worth the time it takes to seek out friendships that are genuine. It doesn't completely take the sting out of the mean girl stuff, but it certainly gives one a refuge and a comfort.

 

My middle/high school girlfriends are still my dearest friends. Looking back, I believe we sought one another out because we recognized what was truly valuable, and it wasn't social power. We've been friends for 30 years, and I don't know what I'd do without them. They are genuine, loving, wonderful women who love and support me.

 

Hugs. I'm sorry your sweet girl is hurting. :(

 

Cat

[JBJones]

I don't think she's ever wanted to be a Queen Bee. I think she doesn't understand why she can't do her own thing without a popular type saying something negative. Because what she chooses to do or wear or whatever doesn't affect them, so why do people in the "top position" even feel the need to point out and humiliate in some way.

 

I also don't think she understands why there is a need to put anyone down ever. She can't relate to that at all. She tries to do her best at the things she cares about and she is generally supportive of other people trying their best. She has a younger brother who has Down syndrome. She is very sensitive to other people working hard to accomplish something. She does befriend others who are outsiders. Having a few close friends is wonderful, but it doesn't provide immunity from negative jabs directed at you.

 

Yes, she is very introverted.

 

She sounds like the type of girl my DD would love to meet.  Mine doesn't want to be Queen Bee either; she just wants a friend. Growing up can be rough.

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:

[Cammie]

One of my greatest regrets from MS/HS is that I wasn't strong enough to stand up for the more marginalized kids in our school. There was a girl who was totally awesome - mohawk, amazing artist, a total individual.  She was completely marginalized.  Now, as an adult, I would love to be friends with her.  I hope I taught my children well enough that they seek out those interesting people on the fringe. 

[wintermom]

She sounds like she's a lovely girl, and she'll probably navigate through the tough years of high school way better than most and go on to live a fantastic life. If she can make it through the competitive and virtually all-girl world of dance, I'd guess she can make it anywhere. At the dance camp, it sounds like she is more tired than usual, in an environment that she can't remove herself from, and is reacting stronger to the negativity than she would in her daily life. In fact, all those girls dancing for 10 hours a day are probably exhausted and haven't the extra energy to stay as nice as they might otherwise do.

[kiwik]

I was bullied by girls at school and still couldn't cope with a bullying incident at work a few years ago so going to school didn't help there.

 

Don't assume it is a female thing though. I gave worked in male environments where there was just as much nastiness as with girls your daughter's age.

[Haiku]

I agree that navigating social situations can be tricky sometimes, but it sounds like you have an extremely negative view of girls and women. That is not healthy for you or your daughter, and completely avoiding social interaction is not the answer. Please remember that girls and women are not a monolithic group who all act the same. If your daughter only has you to talk to, and you are passing on your negative views, it will not help your daughter in the long run.

 

Perhaps some counseling would help you.

[Alicia64]

Welcome to my neighborhood.There was a neighborhood party over the weekend and it finally became apparent to me -- I'm slow -- that the woman in her late 50's next door has been talking badly about me. One neighbor wouldn't even make eye contact w/ me.

 

Why?

 

Seriously, I keep the yard mowed/blown. I'm very nice and very quiet and always wave and smile.

 

All I can come up with is that we homeschool. I hate to blame it on that, but I can't come up w/ anything else. We're in a "very good" school district, so it might bother neighbors that I homeschool. As if I'm dissing their choice.I

 

I left the party after an hour with the saddest, lowest feeling in the pit of my stomach. DH stayed of course oblivious to the whole thing.

 

The next day I felt strong again as in: take a hike, people. I'm a great friend and if you want to miss out: go for it. I think I'll get a homeschool bumpersticker for my car.

 

Anyway, all this is to say: not all women act so "high school." But as one of my friends says, "you know how chicks are." When I'm really hurting, I try to remember this piece of humor.

 

Let your daughter know that there's very nice women out here. But, yeah, a crowd tends to bring out the worst. I don't know why.

 

Alley

 

 

[Anne in CA]

My observation is that bullies are getting "high" off of making someone else feel badly. I have done my best to teach my children not to let those people steal who you are. Yes, nasty remarks, gossip and middle school behavior take some of the joy out of life, but I strive to be an example of calm for my kids. I have tried to teach them that bad behavior is part of the broken world we live in, but that we are not owned by it. All three of my kids have done pretty well. 

 

BTW, my son and other boys had just as many problems with Boy Scouts as my dd's had with girl groups. People try to make each other feel bad. A leader was very hateful to my ds and tried to keep him from being an Eagle Scout. At the banquet honoring Eagle Scouts (because my ds did become an Eagle Scout in spite of the lying leader) I dressed up in a fabulous Anne Taylor outfit, got my nails and my hair done, and made sure I carried myself in such a way that that jerk knew I was not cowering from his lies. It is a valuable skill to learn, because, as the OP pointed out, hiding from people is just impossible. I can still remember the jerk's boss when I sat down at his table at that banquet. He had heard some untrue things about our family and I made sure he thought twice about messing with us. 

[Alicia64]

I agree that navigating social situations can be tricky sometimes, but it sounds like you have an extremely negative view of girls and women. That is not healthy for you or your daughter, and completely avoiding social interaction is not the answer. Please remember that girls and women are not a monolithic group who all act the same. If your daughter only has you to talk to, and you are passing on your negative views, it will not help your daughter in the long run.

 

Perhaps some counseling would help you.

 

Tara -- I completely agree with you. Of course you speak the truth. Of course women aren't monolithic and I agree that the OP may very well be headed down a prejudiced road and impact her daughter's thinking in the process.

 

But . . . I want to add that there's a reason the movie Mean Girls did so well at the box office and stayed front and center in our culture's consciousness.

 

There is a group think problem that seems to occur when you get a group of women together. And to not acknowledge that is to not ever deal with the problem. My heart is beating faster even as I typed the last line. I don't think it's PC to even say such things. I'm wondering if there's an anthropological basis to the behavior.

 

To the OP: yes, some women can be vile -- meet my neighbor! -- and poison relationships by saying bad things to others. When the targeted person isn't around. Meaning she can't defend herself. (Isn't that convenient?)

 

But, Tara's right: there's tons and tons of incredibly awesome, kind, generous, loving women out here! And I agree with Tara that you may be taking your daughter down the wrong road that will impact her for life.

 

It's a very complicated issue and I think telling someone to "get therapy" doesn't do justice to how complicated the issue is.

 

Alley

 

[KungFuPanda]

I believe that if you want to feel happy, and secure in your social relationships, you have to take responsibility for your own feelings. There will always be nasty people who say nasty things. Instead of asking why they marginalize YOU, you should ask why you don't marginalize them? WHY do you see them as the default and yourself as the odd one out? Why have your built this mental pyramid with them at the top? Why do you value their words/opinions so much that you let it effect your life? Why are you a drama magnet?

 

Kids have to figure this out on their own. I think most grown women work this out, realize that not everyone has to love you (and that's ok) and learn to form healthy friendships. There always seem to be some women that don't quite work it out because they forever view it as an external problem. Granted, there ARE times you may be surrounded by a particularly nasty group of women and you need to find a new group. However, if you genuinely feel that you cannot get along with half the human population because THEY are ALL fatally flawed, I might be time to examine why you are a misogynist and how you're going to work that out.

[J-rap]

I'm so sorry you and your daughter have experienced this.  I have not, nor have my daughters (to the extent that you describe, anyway).  I don't know why exactly;  I know a lot of things play into this, including subtle social cues and just being in the wrong (or right) place with the wrong (or right) people at the wrong (or right) time.  We also happen to live in a community that is small and generally very caring and supportive, like a big family.  As my girls go off to the bigger world, they are attracted to like-minded girls who are friendly and caring.  They have great women in their lives as role models -- aunts, grandparents, close family friends. 

 

I don't mean to come off sounding like we have it all figured out -- we don't;  our circumstances just happen to be different.  I don't understand the whole slew of things that play into all of this.  But, I wanted to encourage you to not give up on girls and women!  There are so many wonderful ones out there.

 

Again, I'm really sorry for your daughter.  She sounds like a wonderful, caring girl.  I know that it really hurts to see your child hurting.  I wonder if there are therapists who can help navigate all of this with her/you.  Not because your daughter is doing something wrong, but because social issues are tricky and maybe there are little things your daughter can do that would increase the likelihood of positive experiences in her life;  the right therapist might be able to help her sort through some of that.

[JustEm]

It's funny I don't experience any nastiness with the women I have chosen as friends but I do experience quite a bit in places I have no control over who I associate with. Dh's work is an example of this. I just try to make it apparent that I want nothing to do with their drama.

[Haiku]

It's a very complicated issue and I think telling someone to "get therapy" doesn't do justice to how complicated the issue is.

 

The reason I suggested counseling is precisely because it is a complicated issue. I wasn't being flip.

[Alicia64]

It's funny I don't experience any nastiness with the women I have chosen as friends but I do experience quite a bit in places I have no control over who I associate with.

 

Really well said.

[Alicia64]

The reason I suggested counseling is precisely because it is a complicated issue. I wasn't being flip.

 

No offense meant at all. I liked your post. I just thought it didn't do justice to the issue.

 

Alley

[Alicia64]

 A leader was very hateful to my ds and tried to keep him from being an Eagle Scout. At the banquet honoring Eagle Scouts (because my ds did become an Eagle Scout in spite of the lying leader) I dressed up in a fabulous Anne Taylor outfit, got my nails and my hair done, and made sure I carried myself in such a way that that jerk knew I was not cowering from his lies. It is a valuable skill to learn, because, as the OP pointed out, hiding from people is just impossible. I can still remember the jerk's boss when I sat down at his table at that banquet. He had heard some untrue things about our family and I made sure he thought twice about messing with us. 

 

LOVE THIS! (And not just because I love Ann Taylor.)

 

I think certain kind of bullies go out of their way to tell lies and "poison" relationships. (Always when the targeted person isn't around to defend themselves.)

 

You've described the situation w/ my lovely neighbor to a T. Another neighbor looks at me funny. Off to Ann Taylor!!

 

Alley

[catz]

I have experienced some of this.  I just got a back stab on facebook last week.  I just automatically friend/hide anyone who allows FB to become a platform for their childish behavoir. 

 

I have found it is helpful to my kids to remind them that it is NEVER about them when someone lashes out.  It's about another person's insecurity and need to feel superior.  Sometimes it's family interactions that teach this.  That's what our conversations automatically go to when someone is acting badly - we might speculate how that person got to that point.  Emotionally healthy and happy people do not tear down others.  I don't paint my kids as victims or allow them to feel sorry for themselves.  I model avoiding and possibly ending unhealthy relationships.