Article: Real vs Fake Persecution CC

[Χά�ων]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

 

I would move. That would be way too much for me.

It is really cheap to live here and I cannot afford to move. I have considered it many many times though.

 

Plus I grew up here. This is my normal. 

[Murphy101]

Duck Dynasty was listed as one of the top 25 most watched shows of 2013 by TV Guide, right up there with shows from the networks, sitcom/drama or otherwise, http://www.tvguide.com/news/most-watched-tv-shows-top-25-2012-2013-1066503.aspx

We love Duck Dynasty. Great show. To us anyways. No one else has to watch it. :)

[chiguirre]

I would hate that. It would make me very uncomfortable. I mean, if it was only an occasional thing, I guess it wouldn't be a big deal, but if it was a regular thing, it would really bug me.

Well, you'd probably just get used to it. It bothered me at first and I do avoid the over the top Christian places if I have an alternative. If I don't, I just suck it up. But I have no sympathy for the Christians who cry persecution because they can't invade the few neutral spaces left to the rest of us.

[momacacia]

That is truly frightening news. :svengo:

 

I feel that way about any reality TV show. Could they be any more boring? I really try to watch them for about 5 minutes, once they go big, just to try to stay culturally literate (in a pop culture sort of way). And 5 minutes is all I ever last, whether it's 20 Kids and Counting, Duck Dynastic, the Bachelor, Survivor, Big Brother, or Whatever (that's not a show yet, but wait for it :lol:).

 

Are people's real lives really so dull that we have to watch other people's "real" lives because they are more interesting? Pitiful. These people need a message board to go to! :laugh:

 

[Murphy101]

There's a conundrum here.

 

If Christians are the majority, then doesn't it make sense that the majority of shows would have some level of Christian culture aspects to them? Wouldn't that be their target audience? Being the majority in and of itself does not mean privilege to me. But in light of that majority, it's odd to me there isn't MORE Christian content in media.

 

Is there a big demand for Buddhist tv or whatever religious tv in the states that could fund its production and someone preventing them from doing so? Not being snarky. It's a legit question. Because, for me, the answer determines the question of privilege on this.

 

Locally...

 

I don't have cable.

 

Most of my viewing is via netflix, hulu, Roku, steaming. And there is a LOT of diversity there. There's hardly anything you can't find. And most of my music is pandora. So again, tons of diversity for music.

[Farrar]

It does make sense that the majority religion means that the media will reflect that, those holidays will be standard off days for government and office jobs, etc.  It's just expedient and makes sense.  I wouldn't argue that it should be changed.  Not giving workers the day off for Christmas or Easter would be problematic for many businesses and schools because too many people would take them off as holidays.  It would be silly to ask people to make movies and TV shows not have Christian characters because media should be relatable.  It's inevitable that people will be aware of Christian traditions and greetings and holidays when you live in a majority Christian country.  These things are natural byproducts of their environment.

 

However, just because it's inevitable or expedient or natural doesn't mean it's not also a privilege.  It absolutely is.  

 

And when it becomes less common, less expedient and less natural for those things to be that way because of demographic changes, that doesn't mean it's a loss of rights.  That's the thing that some people really don't seem to get.

[fraidycat]

I remember seeing a character on a soap opera praying in a Catholic Church . . . when I was a teenager. I honestly can't think of anything more recent than that.

Both Booth and Stabler (no longer on, but recent) are Catholic. Bones and Law & Order:SVU. Their Catholicism is discussed quite regularly on both shows.

[Murphy101]

Hmmm.

 

I don't think it's a loss of rights that my dh can't take off work on Good Friday.

 

I think it's a loss of rights that only a few can claim to take a day off for religious reasons. (ETA for clarity. Because so many Christians work on Sundays for example, my sons can't get work if they say they won't work on Sundays bc it puts them in the "extremist" column. But idk that other religions have that problem. Or maybe they do. Or maybe they are all viewed as extremist for it. Idk. But I do know it shouldn't be that way for anyone. Ideally anyways.)

 

But I'll also claim I think this is about employment rights, not religious rights. I think the way time off is handled, or more accurately not handled, in the states. I think all our citizens need more time off and they shouldn't have to give an excuse, religious or otherwise, for using it.

[PeacefulChaos]

I know this is a pet peeve of some, but I didn't have time to read all the replies... it's late.   :)

 

But I wanted to say that I think the article is on point.  

 

As a 'Christian', this is why I don't associate with or approve of the 'Religious Right'.  

 

On a side note, I've never understood the hoopla over not saying 'Merry Christmas'.  o.O  Jesus isn't the reason for the season.  The season is winter.  And I have actually ALWAYS said Happy Holidays, because I was including everything around the time, religious or not - New Years, whatever.  

Oh and the praying in school?  Don't even get me started.   :rolleyes:

 

DH and I work on Christmas and Thanksgiving if we are scheduled.. and Easter, if we need to - usually we don't, because he doesn't work weekends, generally, and I haven't been able to work it the last couple years.  My asking off had more to do with prior obligations, though, than religion.  I will say that the one obligation wouldn't have been there had it not been Easter (choir director at church), but the other one was completely unrelated.

 

ETA: There is a post above mine that I completely agree with - farrarwilliams' post.  Just wanted to give that shout out because ITA with what she said, especially the last few lines.  

[Tanaqui]

If Christians are the majority, then doesn't it make sense that the majority of shows would have some level of Christian culture aspects to them? Wouldn't that be their target audience? Being the majority in and of itself does not mean privilege to me. But in light of that majority, it's odd to me there isn't MORE Christian content in media.

 

Sure, it does make sense for media designed to have a broad appeal to have some level of Christianity in them. Absolutely! (NOT that the media DOES accurately represent the demographics of the country, but that's another issue.)

 

But that doesn't mean it isn't still privilege. Yes, being in the majority does immediately give some privilege. Remember, when we speak of "privilege", that's not a code word for "you're a bad person" or "you oppress others!" or anything like that. It just means some things are easier for you than for others who don't share your good fortune.

[Tanaqui]

Yes, but those are cable network reality shows, not anything you would see on network television. It's not as though the popular dramas or sitcoms (on any TV station, really) are religious in nature.

 

In that, you're making distinctions that weren't made in the original list nor in my interpretation.

 

First, I said I could turn on the TV and find this pretty easily. I didn't say it had to be on network television, if only because I watch very little ON network television.

 

Secondly, I mentioned Christian characters, not "religious programming", which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

And third, I'm not going to get into the popularity of the shows, just the availability. Popularity is beyond the scope of that list, I think.

 

So now that we've set our parameters again, I can think of a few shows I watch that show Christianity in a positive or neutral light. I don't really want to admit to the cheesy television I watch, but I will for the cause. Don't judge me.

 

Switched at Birth, one of the two families is Christian, says grace and goes to church (the churchgoing isn't shown, but it's been mentioned) and they had this whole awkward moment just in the last episode praying with the other atheist mother.

 

Grimm, we know for a fact that one of the main characters, Monroe, considers going to church a "normal" activity. When he's discussing some issue of Wesen culture he mentions that two groups go to "different churches", Nick asks "You go to church?" and Monroe replies "Well, sure, don't you?" It's possible that when he says church he doesn't mean "church" in the conventional sense of "Christian worship", but not terribly probable.

 

The Simpsons - okay, I don't watch this anymore, but most of the town is at least nominally Christian and attends church. Flanders is excessively religious, but he's still a good person, just an annoying one.

 

Psych, recently cancelled, Gus frequently remarks that some disturbed person or other "needs Jesus", nobody ever comments on how, frankly, offensive that is. They often nod in what appears to be agreement. It can be reasonably deduced that Gus considers himself a Christian.

 

Bones is to be commended for having a variety of religious viewpoints in its rather large main cast. Certainly, Booth's Catholicism comes up pretty frequently, and he clearly believes deeply even if he doesn't always practice his religion the way he feels he ought to. However, this isn't really an example of my main point because, as I said, their main characters hold a variety of religious views. I believe Bones also just finished their last season.

 

The Duggars' show and Duck Dynasty. Reality TV is a popular genre, and those shows most definitely feature Christians. (I don't watch these shows.)

 

Anything where they interview a politician, as Congress is disproportionately religious, and they always seem to bring up God at the strangest moments. So that covers news shows, I guess.

 

I don't really watch that much TV, so I don't know what-all else is on currently. I do know that if the shows I do watch are at all typical, I could easily find another show that has Christians in it being Christian, even if they aren't super religious or showy about it. And I know that those Christians would represent a wide variety of people, with some being good people and some being bad people and most muddling along in the middle.

[MercyA]

We love Duck Dynasty. Great show. To us anyways. No one else has to watch it. :)

 

I couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes of the first episode.  "My idea of happiness is killing things?"  Sick.

[SadieMarie]

And when it becomes less common, less expedient and less natural for those things to be that way because of demographic changes, that doesn't mean it's a loss of rights.  That's the thing that some people really don't seem to get.

 

I think this nailed it really.  It IS changing.  And when you are in the majority and that majority is slipping away it is going to feel like persecution even though it isn't.  

 

And I have also had jobs where I had to work on Christmas, but I got paid double time :).

[Greta]

I forgot about Bones! How could I forget that? Bones is atheist, Booth is Catholic, and yet they respect one another and have a great partnership and the world doesn't fall apart. Love that!

[Leav97]

I think this nailed it really.  It IS changing.  And when you are in the majority and that majority is slipping away it is going to feel like persecution even though it isn't.  

 

And I have also had jobs where I had to work on Christmas, but I got paid double time :).

 

I volunteer for Christmas most years.  Gives my coworkers a chance to travel to family.  My family is all close.

[ktgrok]

Can you name one ? I was raised Catholic and nodded along to the whole list.

 

I do have people that mock my participation in my faith, I'm unlikely to have a jury of fellow Catholics, and I've actually been called to my face, "the token Christian". But...I hang out with a lot of atheists. (and I'm not the person you were asking)

 

that said, none of those things are persecution. Even those stupid Jack Chick tracts that are anti catholic are not persecution. 

[TeacherZee]

Can you give an example of persecution here in the U.S.?  Genuinely interested. 

 

Have you experienced the 'subtle social shaming'?  Of course, I understand if you don't feel comfortable sharing that. 

 

Here is an example of an experience in my area which has lead to my feeling on the matter. :)

 

A local church and pastor held weekly prayer sessions before school at a local elementary. (This was NOT the annual meet-you-at-the-pole thing) This went on every week and was held in the middle/front of the grounds, all students would have to walk past on their way in.  It was of course easily noted by the students which of their fellow-students did not participate. 

 

When asked to stop, they refused, they complained about being persecuted and that this is a Christian country and that they were great guys.  Ultimately a lawsuit was issued to demand they stop. The school board stepped in and said 'no meetings of any kind' and no adults on campus who weren't parents of a student. The ruling was overkill but did at least address this parent's concern.  

 

The pastor immediately declared that this was an attack on Christianity and he vowed to stand just outside the school grounds and continue praying for America to return to the right. He had vocal community support.

 

In my opinion, he was not only not being persecuted but he damaged the name of his church and was a very poor example of Christ. 

 

http://youtu.be/49lLqFsO4Dc

 

Hmm. I admit those scenes are more prevalent, which makes sense if Christianity is the majority. It's be odd to see a majority of shows with Muslims or whatever minority. I see far more without much religious reference at all or being a bad thing as you note. But I see shows that show other beliefs too. Somewhat off topic, has anyone else watched Little Mosque on Hulu?

 

I rarely see much catholic on tv. Lots and lots and lots of negative parody of Catholicism though. I think my grandparents probably saw a lot more positive catholic stuff on tv and in media then I do.

 

 

Both Booth and Stabler (no longer on, but recent) are Catholic. Bones and Law & Order:SVU. Their Catholicism is discussed quite regularly on both shows.

 

And you (and others) beat me to it, I was going to say Booth :)

[marbel]

Well, you'd probably just get used to it. It bothered me at first and I do avoid the over the top Christian places if I have an alternative. If I don't, I just suck it up. But I have no sympathy for the Christians who cry persecution because they can't invade the few neutral spaces left to the rest of us.

 

This is really interesting to  me.  I'm not arguing with you, because of course I don't know what things are like where you live.  And I've only lived 3 places in my adult life, but in those 3 places I have never heard Christian music in a store (other than an explicitly Christian store) or in any other public place.   I don't seek out Christian music on the radio, but when I am going through channels I don't hear much - the vast majority is secular music. 

 

Maybe I'm oblivious, but since this thread has been going I've really been thinking about it, and tried to pay attention.  And, from my point of view, the world seems very neutral.  That isn't a complaint, just an observation.  So I can't even imagine living in a place that the skating rink (as a pp mentioned) played Christian music!  

 

I don't think Christians in the US are persecuted.  I do think we are being marginalized.  Perhaps some see that as persecution.  I do also think that the vast majority of Christians do not feel that way.  Or maybe, as with the other things, that's just how it is in my part of the US. 

 

Where I live there is a large Jewish population.  Public schools are closed on the major Jewish holidays.  I don't know about businesses.  I think public schools are going to close when a large number of students are likely to not show up.  :)

[Joanne]

There's a conundrum here.

 

If Christians are the majority, then doesn't it make sense that the majority of shows would have some level of Christian culture aspects to them? Wouldn't that be their target audience? Being the majority in and of itself does not mean privilege to me. But in light of that majority, it's odd to me there isn't MORE Christian content in media

I think it is much more a case that the majority of people who identify as Christian are not the political, bold, evangelising, under God in the pledge, Chik-fil-A supporting, Hobby lobby supporting, evolution wary types. They are introspective, quiet and personal about their faith. And often liberal minded sbout hot button issues. But Christians like that are often marginalized as nonChristian by the other types, even though the other types are lesser in number.

[TeacherZee]

This is really interesting to  me.  I'm not arguing with you, because of course I don't know what things are like where you live.  And I've only lived 3 places in my adult life, but in those 3 places I have never heard Christian music in a store (other than an explicitly Christian store) or in any other public place.   I don't seek out Christian music on the radio, but when I am going through channels I don't hear much - the vast majority is secular music. 

 

Maybe I'm oblivious, but since this thread has been going I've really been thinking about it, and tried to pay attention.  And, from my point of view, the world seems very neutral.  That isn't a complaint, just an observation.  So I can't even imagine living in a place that the skating rink (as a pp mentioned) played Christian music!  

 

I don't think Christians in the US are persecuted.  I do think we are being marginalized.  Perhaps some see that as persecution.  I do also think that the vast majority of Christians do not feel that way.  Or maybe, as with the other things, that's just how it is in my part of the US. 

 

Where I live there is a large Jewish population.  Public schools are closed on the major Jewish holidays.  I don't know about businesses.  I think public schools are going to close when a large number of students are likely to not show up.  :)

 

I was driving from PA to NC recently (and then back up the same way) and once I hit VA 99% of the stations I went through when searching played Christian music. I think it very much depends on where you are :)

[Joanne]

This is really interesting to me. I'm not arguing with you, because of course I don't know what things are like where you live. And I've only lived 3 places in my adult life, but in those 3 places I have never heard Christian music in a store (other than an explicitly Christian store) or in any other public place. I don't seek out Christian music on the radio, but when I am going through channels I don't hear much - the vast majority is secular music.

 

Maybe I'm oblivious, but since this thread has been going I've really been thinking about it, and tried to pay attention. And, from my point of view, the world seems very neutral. That isn't a complaint, just an observation. So I can't even imagine living in a place that the skating rink (as a pp mentioned) played Christian music!

 

)

I live in a suburb of Houston. Christian music in chain stores is common. Christian products are common in stores. There are at least 3 Christian stores within 10 miles of here.

[marbel]

I live in a suburb of Houston. Christisn music in chain stores is common. Christian products are common in stores. There are at least 3 Christian stores within 10 miles of here.

 

I haven't spent much time in Houston but I can remember going into a huge Christian store there.  That was probably 20 years or so ago.

 

I guess I see the difference between having a lot of stores that have Christian goods, and having Christian music and such all over the place.

 

Obviously if there is a demand for a certain type of product, there will be lots of stores that sell it.  Around here, there are a lot of stores selling Catholic goods.  When I lived in the suburbs of Portland, OR, there was maybe one.   I have yet to come across a protestant Christian store (that sounds weird, but I don't know how else to put it) here, though I have not looked for one. 

 

But it's hard for me to imagine public accommodation type places (skating rinks, other types of stores) playing Christian music.  I'm not disputing what y'all are saying; I've just never encountered it where I've lived.   I do not believe I would like that. 

 

I do get annoyed when a mainstream store, such as Barnes and Noble, has zero offerings of religious-themed Christmas cards.  I don't mind that they sell non-religious-themed cards, mind you.  But it would be nice if they carried both.    (Well, who knows, maybe by the time I get around to looking for cards, they are all sold out.) 

 

[Haiku]

I do think we are being marginalized. 

 

I don't really see that as a problem, given that the rest of us have had to live with Christianity being shoved down our throats for so long.

 

I am Buddhist. I exist just fine in a world that doesn't daily feature and support my beliefs. I promise that Christians can do they same (although I suspect many of them don't believe it's possible).

 

I always want to ask the Christians who view any lack of overt Christianity as a threat to their faith and religion how other people of minority religions could possibly survive in America if that were true.  

[NicAnn]

Eh. Christian persecution happens in the US. Sure, it's nothing compared to my brothers and sisters in other countries, but real nonetheless.

Our Halls (churches) are regularly vandalized, our children get harassed in schools for not saying the pledge of allegiance, I've been screamed at by a campaigner who came to my door getting voters registered because I told him my husband doesn't vote, we are accused of horrible things and told we are a cult.

 

Anyway, it happens. There have definitely been times living in the US where I've felt my family isn't safe, strictly because of our religion, both because of other Christians and secular people.

[poppy]

Eh. Christian persecution happens in the US. Sure, it's nothing compared to my brothers and sisters in other countries, but real nonetheless.

Our Halls (churches) are regularly vandalized, our children get harassed in schools for not saying the pledge of allegiance, I've been screamed at by a campaigner who came to my door getting voters registered because I told him my husband doesn't vote, we are accused of horrible things and told we are a cult.

 

Anyway, it happens. There have definitely been times living in the US where I've felt my family isn't safe, strictly because of our religion, both because of other Christians and secular people.

 

Where on the earth do you live?

I live in the most liberal and secular city in America and here those things are unheard of.

[NicAnn]

Where on the earth do you live?

I live in the most liberal and secular city in America and here those things are unheard of.

Ask some local Jehovahs Witnesses and I bet they will say it's not unheard of for them. :)

Unfortunately, and I don't know why, the more liberal and secular a city, the more unwelcome I feel.

[SadieMarie]

Where on the earth do you live?

I live in the most liberal and secular city in America and here those things are unheard of.

Yes, I am wondering the same thing. I guess I remember a church being vandalized when I was a kid. But that was because they were sponsoring Vietnamese refugees. So I think it was more about anti immigrant attitudes than ant Christian ones.

[SadieMarie]

Ask some local Jehovahs Witnesses and I bet they will say it's not unheard of for them. :)

Unfortunately, and I don't know why, the more liberal and secular a city, the more unwelcome I feel.

OK, but what is it that makes you feel unwelcome? I mean other than knocking on people's doors proselytizing, because I admit that I do not welcome that. I am polite about it but I am definitely not welcoming.

[flyingiguana]

I have yet to come across a protestant Christian store (that sounds weird, but I don't know how else to put it) here, though I have not looked for one.

Now that's an interesting question -- if Protestants were a minority, and needed stores that catered to their religious needs, what would they sell?

 

Is the fact that I can't think of much an indication that Protestantism is not a very thing oriented religion, or just that whatever is needed is already sold in all the stores near us? I'm not talking about hymnals and communion wafers and the sort of stuff churches buy -- they seem to get those from some sort of church supply house. Just the things a church member might want to buy that wasn't provided by the church.

[NicAnn]

OK, but what is it that makes you feel unwelcome? I mean other than knocking on people's doors proselytizing, because I admit that I do not welcome that. I am polite about it but I am definitely not welcoming.

I don't actually do that.

Why do I feel unwelcome? I'm not sure I can say it without it making someone feel offended or like I'm generalizing, so I'll preface by saying this is MY experience and I can't speak for anyone else.

In my experience, the more liberal and secular a group of people (I'm in Seattle for reference), the more passionately they feel about politics. When someone finds out my family doesn't participate in politics, particularly when we don't vote, they become openly hostile and just unwelcoming.

 

I also feel this way in deeply conservative areas, but that's more because I'm the "wrong" type of christian.

[NicAnn]

OK, but what is it that makes you feel unwelcome? I mean other than knocking on people's doors proselytizing, because I admit that I do not welcome that. I am polite about it but I am definitely not welcoming.

Oh, and I feel unwelcome because when we try to build new hall (about the size of an average ranch style home), there are often protests, angry letters, etc. again, nothing compared to other places or how I'm sure Muslims feel.

[flyingiguana]

Where on the earth do you live?

I live in the most liberal and secular city in America and here those things are unheard of.

Way back in the 60's, when my dad was teaching school, there were all sorts of interesting religions springing up -- I think maybe they were generated up in the hills where a good number of hippies were settling down? In any case, they had all sorts of strictures. One wouldn't allow their kids to wear shoes, and the school was unsure what to do. Did they require shoes because their safety codes insisted on it? Or allow those kids to not wear shoes because they didn't want to trample on religious beliefs?

 

The school finally let them go unshod. So even "back then" there were accommodations being made and people weren't getting too hard line about things. If any teasing went on among the kids, you can't really chalk that up to religious intolerance. It was middle school. If there hadn't been that to be mean about, someone would have come up with something even better.

 

There were enough of these little groups with different beliefs that the Jehovah's Witnesses looked positively mainstream.

[flyingiguana]

Oh, and I feel unwelcome because when we try to build new hall (about the size of an average ranch style home), there are often protests, angry letters, etc. again, nothing compared to other places or how I'm sure Muslims feel.

I don't know the particulars, obviously, but people tend to never want to change how things currently are. And the idea of building a big meeting hall down the street is probably bringing up visions of the streets being overparked. (Even if it's not big -- just using the word "hall" would scare people)

 

Even the most ardent liberals can get pretty conservative if you start talking about taking their parking away.

[marbel]

I don't really see that as a problem, given that the rest of us have had to live with Christianity being shoved down our throats for so long.

 

I am Buddhist. I exist just fine in a world that doesn't daily feature and support my beliefs. I promise that Christians can do they same (although I suspect many of them don't believe it's possible).

 

I always want to ask the Christians who view any lack of overt Christianity as a threat to their faith and religion how other people of minority religions could possibly survive in America if that were true.  

 

I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or not.   I don't know what you mean by having Christianity shoved down your throat.  But maybe you live in one of those places that has Christian music playing in the grocery store all the time.  

 

I can't think of a thing I said that indicated I don't think I can live in a world that doesn't daily feature and support my beliefs.  Actually, I do live in a world that doesn't daily feature and support my beliefs! 

 

So, I'm not sure what you're getting at.   I'm trying not to read hostility into your post but having a hard time coming to any other conclusion. 

[kiana]

Where I live there is a large Jewish population.  Public schools are closed on the major Jewish holidays.  I don't know about businesses.  I think public schools are going to close when a large number of students are likely to not show up.  :)

 

Where I grew up, all the schools closed on the first day of deer season. :P

[marbel]

Now that's an interesting question -- if Protestants were a minority, and needed stores that catered to their religious needs, what would they sell?

 

Is the fact that I can't think of much an indication that Protestantism is not a very thing oriented religion, or just that whatever is needed is already sold in all the stores near us? I'm not talking about hymnals and communion wafers and the sort of stuff churches buy -- they seem to get those from some sort of church supply house. Just the things a church member might want to buy that wasn't provided by the church.

 

Most Christian stores I've been in (catering to Protestants, not Catholic Christians) sell a lot of greeting cards, do-dads like keychains and such, figurines, jewelry, home decor. All religious-themed, of course.  Sunday School stuff.  Christmas decorations.   Well, and books, of course!    It's been a long time since I've been in one, actually and I never spent much time in them because I don't tend to buy the stuff they sell.

 

[poppy]

Where I grew up, all the schools closed on the first day of deer season. :p

 

Me too.  But, it wasn't a federally recognized holiday. Christmas still is.

[Joanne]

Eh. Christian persecution happens in the US. Sure, it's nothing compared to my brothers and sisters in other countries, but real nonetheless.

Our Halls (churches) are regularly vandalized, our children get harassed in schools for not saying the pledge of allegiance, I've been screamed at by a campaigner who came to my door getting voters registered because I told him my husband doesn't vote, we are accused of horrible things and told we are a cult.

 

Anyway, it happens. There have definitely been times living in the US where I've felt my family isn't safe, strictly because of our religion, both because of other Christians and secular people.

 

This is a specific bigotry and targeted persecution - probably perpetuated not by non Christians but by people who claim Christianity as their faith. By far, accounts of this kind of violence and aggression are not committed by non Christians.

 

There are Christian denominations that are targeted - by other Christians!

[Joanne]

I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or not.   I don't know what you mean by having Christianity shoved down your throat.  But maybe you live in one of those places that has Christian music playing in the grocery store all the time.  

 

I can't think of a thing I said that indicated I don't think I can live in a world that doesn't daily feature and support my beliefs.  Actually, I do live in a world that doesn't daily feature and support my beliefs! 

 

So, I'm not sure what you're getting at.   I'm trying not to read hostility into your post but having a hard time coming to any other conclusion. 

 

I didn't see or feel the Christian overculture until I was on the fringe and later, off the grid, of Christianity.

 

I don't mind "Merry Christmas" at all - but I do "mind" the strident insistence against "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings".

[Haiku]

So, I'm not sure what you're getting at.   I'm trying not to read hostility into your post but having a hard time coming to any other conclusion. 

 

Being marginalized means being not front and center. I'm merely saying that it's not a bad thing. Lots of people live that way. Society is becoming more pluralistic. That's a good thing, and Christians needn't be afraid. 

 

No hostility meant.

[Haiku]

Most Christian stores I've been in (catering to Protestants, not Catholic Christians) sell a lot of greeting cards, do-dads like keychains and such, figurines, jewelry, home decor. All religious-themed, of course.  Sunday School stuff.  Christmas decorations.   Well, and books, of course!  

 

Sounds like any Hallmark store! Strangely, they don't carry Buddhist keychains or prayer cards, though ...  ;)

[Greta]

Eh. Christian persecution happens in the US. Sure, it's nothing compared to my brothers and sisters in other countries, but real nonetheless.

Our Halls (churches) are regularly vandalized, our children get harassed in schools for not saying the pledge of allegiance, I've been screamed at by a campaigner who came to my door getting voters registered because I told him my husband doesn't vote, we are accused of horrible things and told we are a cult.

Anyway, it happens. There have definitely been times living in the US where I've felt my family isn't safe, strictly because of our religion, both because of other Christians and secular people.

  

Ask some local Jehovahs Witnesses and I bet they will say it's not unheard of for them. :)

Unfortunately, and I don't know why, the more liberal and secular a city, the more unwelcome I feel.

I spent the first 17 years of my life as a JW, and while I do not doubt your experiences, they actually are completely unheard of for me. The Kingdom Hall which my mom still attends has never been vandalized in all the 50+ years that it's been there, and same for the Kingdom Halls that my extended family attended (and still attends) throughout my home state. Where I live now, I have heard of Catholic Churches being vandalized, but not Kingdom Halls. The rest of the things on your list, while exceptionally rude, are not persecution. Kids at school were never mean to me for being JW, though they did feel sorry for me a lot. I never got yelled at or judged for my beliefs until I became an atheist.

 

I know these things vary a lot by region. The four years that I spent as an atheist in my religious, conservative home state I got judged and yelled at and discriminated against (not hired) because of my lack of faith. I then moved to a much less religious and more liberal state, and the two years that I lived there, not one single person ever asked me about my faith or brought up the issue at all. It was simply considered a private matter, and not discussed. (No one asked me my political views either. It was great.) I now live in a more mixed state, and during my time here I have been both an atheist and now a Christian. I did have a couple of people tell my I was going to hell when I was an atheist. No one has been rude to me about my faith since I've become a Christian.

 

I would guess (and hope) that your experiences are the exception rather than the rule. But I haven't lived where you live.

[Joanne]

I

In my experience, the more liberal and secular a group of people (I'm in Seattle for reference), the more passionately they feel about politics. When someone finds out my family doesn't participate in politics, particularly when we don't vote, they become openly hostile and just unwelcoming.

 

I also feel this way in deeply conservative areas, but that's more because I'm the "wrong" type of christian.

 

I see a tremendous amount of passion about politics in traditional/mainstream conservative Christianity.

[marbel]

I didn't see or feel the Christian overculture until I was on the fringe and later, off the grid, of Christianity.

 

I don't mind "Merry Christmas" at all - but I do "mind" the strident insistence against "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings".

 

I admit I don't understand the problem with "Merry Christmas" since most if not all people I know who identify as atheists or agnostic say "Merry Christmas" and celebrate Christmas. They don't celebrate it the way I do, but they use the word.

 

Again, I know my experience is not universal and I would not say Merry Christmas to a person who I know is Muslim, Jewish, etc. I tend to say "Happy Holidays" unless I know the person celebrates Christmas, whether they celebrate it as a cultural holiday or a religious one.  

 

I wonder, if I lived in a majority Muslim place, would I feel Islam shoved down my throat by hearing the calls to prayer each day?   Or would I just accept the fact that that is the way the majority of people live there?   I honestly don't know.  I'm not making a pronouncement, just asking the question and examining my environment for Christian "overculture." (I've never heard that term before but I think I get what it means.)  Maybe I can't see it.  But, I don't know what I would see. 

 

[marbel]

Sounds like any Hallmark store! Strangely, they don't carry Buddhist keychains or prayer cards, though ...  ;)

I don't shop in Hallmark stores either!  

[NicAnn]

Perhaps I'm genuinely confused then. Is the definition of religious persecution not the mistreatment of a group or individual because of their religious belief?

 

Date: 14th century

1 : the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook 2 : the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed

[Haiku]

Living in a place where most people identify as Christian does not make me feel Christianity is being shoved down my throat. The constant exhortations to become Christian, the refusal to be my friend because I am not Christian, the persistent attempts to pass legislation based on some Christian group's specific beliefs, the lamentations that the world is going to hell in a handbasket because the country is less overtly Christian these days, and the derogatory labeling of attempts to recognize and include non-Christians as PC makes me feel Christianity is being shoved down my throat.

[marbel]

Living in a place where most people identify as Christian does not make me feel Christianity is being shoved down my throat. The constant exhortations to become Christian, the refusal to be my friend because I am not Christian, the persistent attempts to pass legislation based on some Christian group's specific beliefs, the lamentations that the world is going to hell in a handbasket because the country is less overtly Christian these days, and the derogatory labeling of attempts to recognize and include non-Christians as PC makes me feel Christianity is being shoved down my throat.

 

Aaahhh... I see what you mean now.   Thanks for the clarification.  Yeah, that is troublesome and not the way it's supposed to be.

 

[NicAnn]

Living in a place where most people identify as Christian does not make me feel Christianity is being shoved down my throat. The constant exhortations to become Christian, the refusal to be my friend because I am not Christian, the persistent attempts to pass legislation based on some Christian group's specific beliefs, the lamentations that the world is going to hell in a handbasket because the country is less overtly Christian these days, and the derogatory labeling of attempts to recognize and include non-Christians as PC makes me feel Christianity is being shoved down my throat.

No doubt. It's funny, I never understood what people meant when they said religion was being shoved down their throats. I rolled my eyes and scoffed to be honest. Then I moved to an area that practiced a very different form of Christianity than I did, and wow. I immediately understood within the first month of living there. I don't feel it in the PNW, but did I ever in the southern Midwest.

[poppy]

Perhaps I'm genuinely confused then. Is the definition of religious persecution not the mistreatment of a group or individual because of their religious belief?

 

Date: 14th century

1 : the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook 2 : the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed

 

You are a Jehovah's Witness? It might be true that JW and some other small subsets face persecution and ridicule, particularly from other Christians.  It's not true that the vast majority of Christians- Mainline Protestant, Evangelical, Roman Catholic - do.